My Rant Against Med School Admissions

[dokein]

But since most Americans don't really want true social justice when it comes to ethnicity and would never vote for policies to correct social ills, we are stuck with the second best thing which is AA.

I'm sorry, this has been a typical attitude that has appeared on these forums from some members and I vehemently disagree blaming everything on racism.

Every single culture has been subject to racism and slavery, some to different degrees. Admittedly, blacks fall into one of the worse categories.

But fundamentally, cultural reflection has been internal. I mean, Barack Obama has been elected as president by what most considered to be a landslide.

If he can be a PRESIDENT by a democratic vote, that means there is limited--though not inexistent--external hinderance. It means it can be overcome. It means more people should listen to Bill Cosby and less to Al Sharpton.

Okay I'm done.

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[dokein]

I find it interesting that people always bring up that some black people are more comfortable with black doctors. But they leave out that white doctors have more negative opinions of black patients even when socio-economics, education and health insurance status are controlled.

Physicians are largely altuiristic (in theory) and the fact that these people who for the most part hold OVERTLY egalitarian values are so internally biased is a sad indication of the state of our nation.

Can you cite that study? I haven't seen it but I've seen lots of studies with the example I gave.

 

[Arjuna]

i do think the op is being a bit entitled, but i think most everyone can agree that the urm system is... Flawed at best. I know several friends that are "minorities" that are intending to apply as urm, despite the fact that they are socioeconomically above average and have probably never experienced any sort of racial prejudice in their lives. How does that make sense?

I'm sure there are people that have been dealt a bad hand, and they should definitely receive some sort of compensation. But the urm program seems to be a silly "get into med school free card" that only certain people get to use, regardless of whether or not they actually deserve such a program.

i will go play some civilization iv now.

l o l.

 

[medactar]

I'm sorry, this has been a typical attitude that has appeared on these forums from some members and I vehemently disagree blaming everything on racism.

Every single culture has been subject to racism and slavery, some to different degrees. Admittedly, blacks fall into one of the worse categories.

But fundamentally, cultural reflection has been internal. I mean, Barack Obama has been elected as president by what most considered to be a landslide.

If he can be a PRESIDENT by a democratic vote, that means there is limited--though not inexistent--external hinderance. It means it can be overcome. It means more people should listen to Bill Cosby and less to Al Sharpton.

Okay I'm done.

Can you cite that study? I haven't seen it but I've seen lots of studies with the example I gave.

LOeffinL @ the Obama reference. Classic!! (what it proves when people bring this up, not sure :kanyeshrug

This previous post will serve as a response to both questions.

When people realize racism shaped our nation and needs to be adjusted for, then this convo can be productive. It doesn't matter if the URM is wealthy or poor. It doesn't matter if he/she has had experiences of overt racism. They are still affected.

Until then...

ETA: some people were asking in the beginning of the thread why black patients may prefer black doctors. This is why:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...98c6d6ec681e2dc2245fe832382&ie=/sdarticle.pdf

Basically the study says that white doctors hold negative views of black patients even when things like insurance status, socioeconomics and education are controlled.

Who wants to sign up for a doc who is going to look down on you?? Don't all raise your hands at once.

I have many other studies which show many people who display overtly egalitarian stances are internally biased. If you want to see the studies, I will happily provide the links

 

[gplex86]

Okay, this thread is a train wreck and I want nothing to do with the main topic. However, these are ridiculous statements... and am honestly, offended at the context (being Jewish)... yes, African Americans have had it tough (so have many races through history and that should in no way be downplayed)

However, to insinuate that Jews "got off easy" is ABSURD and offensive... maybe people forget about what the signs use to say in the US "No Blacks No Jews No Dogs" (or did we forget?)

I am IN NO WAY EVEN GOING TO TRY AND MAKE COMPARISONS between African American and Jewish persecution because that is an exercise in futility.... but I am appalled to see students thinking that "Jews had advocates and private communities they were fine" (we had no advocates for most of our previous (and current history).... hence, why Jews have been a scapegoat throughout history





Originally Posted by gplex86
Jews have always valued education, especially professional education. It's part of our culture as it developed in Europe. We had our own communities, and for the most part we were left alone. The Holocaust only lasted a few decades, not long enough to wipe out these gains. American Jews had enough influence to argue on our behalf and regroup. Compared to African Americans we got off easy. They lost everything.

Considering the end result and the amount of help we (the Jews) had, I really do believe that African slaves had it worse. I'm just going to copy and paste it.

I was referring to the fact that the Jewish people retained its culture, its superior level of education, and their professions. This was NOT the case for African slaves and their descendants. Their education, culture, and freedom was completely lost because the slave trade lasted for centuries, whereas the Holocaust lasted less than a decade. Not long after the Holocaust, we even got our own nation. Again, I think compared to African slaves we were "fortunate".

FDR was not a very good president to the Jews, but Truman was. Truman had a close Jewish friend who personally influenced his decisions regarding what to do with Holocaust survivors. That's why so many were able to emigrate to the United States after the war. General (and later president) Eisenhower was in charge of dealing with the temporary refugee camps and he was extremely gracious, too. Without their help, Israel never would have been founded. Did Africans have advocates like these? No.

Also understand that there was already a sizable Jewish population in the United States, with serious political capital. That's also why there are many Jewish-American WWII veterans. They were able to provide money and a way to start anew in the United States. Did Africans have families in the US who immigrated a generation or two earlier to help out? No.

Anyway, I'm sorry you took offense and I hope this explains things better. I truly believe that it is inappropriate to compare African slavery to the Holocaust, because whereas we were able to bounce back, African-American culture is still left in ruins.

 

[dokein]

I truly believe that it is inappropriate to compare African slavery to the Holocaust, because whereas we were able to bounce back, African-American culture is still left in ruins.

Africans have never had centuries of an educational culture akin to what you can find in the history of Asia or Europe or the Middle East. Neither did Native Americans. It's not saying anything bad about them, but rather just how things happened to develop (a la Guns Germs and Steel).

It's incorrect to say that their educational culture was left in ruins because of slavery, rather more correct to say that it did not get installed, partially because of slavery. But part of being able to bounce back is the "back" part, because even when they re-locate their original identity (e.g. the Back to Africa movement) it doesn't result in increased educational performance.

Increased educational performance happens when people like MLK Jr. get a doctorate in spite of his environment, without AA. That has to be introspective rather than circumstantial, and I think the community should learn from that.

As it is, high crime rates and low education rates only perpetuates racist attitudes.

NOTE: This is a highly complex subject and I am not qualified to talk about it in any way. The above is just conjecture.

 

[casillas]

Might I add that African-Americans are not a gigantic monolithic group. Many of us are immigrants and children of immigrants (me), and we tend to be one of the most successful minority groups in this country http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/03/black_immigrants_an_invisible.html. So don't worry about all of those unqualified URMs stealing your spots at Harvard, Hopkins, and Columbia.

That's a really interesting article. I had never really thought about it but now that i do most of the recent immigrants i know are higher achieving than most native born Americans.

 

[Narmerguy]

Africans have never had centuries of an educational culture akin to what you can find in the history of Asia or Europe or the Middle East. Neither did Native Americans. It's not saying anything bad about them, but rather just how things happened to develop (a la Guns Germs and Steel).

It's incorrect to say that their educational culture was left in ruins because of slavery, rather more correct to say that it did not get installed, partially because of slavery. But part of being able to bounce back is the "back" part, because even when they re-locate their original identity (e.g. the Back to Africa movement) it doesn't result in increased educational performance.

Increased educational performance happens when people like MLK Jr. get a doctorate in spite of his environment, without AA. That has to be introspective rather than circumstantial, and I think the community should learn from that.

As it is, high crime rates and low education rates only perpetuates racist attitudes.

NOTE: This is a highly complex subject and I am not qualified to talk about it in any way. The above is just conjecture.

Learn your history. Since way back the Greeks were learning from Africans. It used to be a center of intellectual might until they got whooped militarily and battered and spread. I find it laughable that you would insinuate that all other cultures valued education except native americans and africans when Africans were the ones educating a lot of the world in early history.

Of course no one studies African history because no one cares.

 

[dokein]

Learn your history. Since way back the Greeks were learning from Africans. It used to be a center of intellectual might until they got whooped militarily and battered and spread. I find it laughable that you would insinuate that all other cultures valued education except native americans and africans when Africans were the ones educating a lot of the world in early history.

Of course no one studies African history because no one cares.

Generally we're talking about sub-Saharan Africa in terms of slavery and current African immigrants, not Egypt, etc.

Furthermore education in terms of materials and craftsmanship is very different from the education I am talking about, which is written conceptual material more akin to modern education.

 

[medactar]

Generally we're talking about sub-Saharan Africa in terms of slavery and current African immigrants, not Egypt, etc.

Furthermore education in terms of materials and craftsmanship is very different from the education I am talking about, which is written conceptual material more akin to modern education.

Having an "educational culture" meaning one that values learning (it whatever form... even if it is different from the modern era) is extremely important and it was stripped from African slaves.

 

[medactar]

........

 

[gplex86]

Africans have never had centuries of an educational culture akin to what you can find in the history of Asia or Europe or the Middle East. Neither did Native Americans. It's not saying anything bad about them, but rather just how things happened to develop (a la Guns Germs and Steel).

It's incorrect to say that their educational culture was left in ruins because of slavery, rather more correct to say that it did not get installed, partially because of slavery. But part of being able to bounce back is the "back" part, because even when they re-locate their original identity (e.g. the Back to Africa movement) it doesn't result in increased educational performance.

Increased educational performance happens when people like MLK Jr. get a doctorate in spite of his environment, without AA. That has to be introspective rather than circumstantial, and I think the community should learn from that.

As it is, high crime rates and low education rates only perpetuates racist attitudes.

NOTE: This is a highly complex subject and I am not qualified to talk about it in any way. The above is just conjecture.

If you don't know anything then why are you making declarative statements? Feel free to comment on the subjects you know but otherwise you should be asking questions, not spouting off garbage like an ignorant fool.

 

[amikeMD]

People who keep bitching about URM status: URMs AREN'T COMPETING AGAINST YOU, NO ONE IS TAKING YOUR SPOTS, WHAT URMs DO IS ENTIRELY IRRELEVANT TO YOUR CHANCE OF BEING ADMITTED.

Why oh why is this so hard to grasp?!

It's not about social justice, it's not about giving black people extra help, it's not about any of that. It's about needing more doctors of certain ethnicities because we can't only have Asian doctors- there are patients who aren't Asian out there in the US. There is an absurd disparity in how many Asian doctors there are compared to how many Asians there are in the country, vs Hispanic/AA doctors and Hispanic/AA patients. That's it.

If you're against the concept of helping your patients feel comfortable, well...cool. I wouldn't really mention that in the same breath as "I want to help people" at your interview.

and just to reiterate....YOU'RE NOT COMPETING FOR THE SAME SPOTS. GET OVER IT.

Unsurprisingly, most of these absurd URM-bashing threads appear toward the end of the interview season. Y'all look for an explanation for why you didn't get what you "deserved" even though you're a special little flower. It can't be that you're not as brilliant as you believed. It can't possibly be that you're not as good as everyone else who applied to the schools you like. It can't be that you're not as charming an interviewee as your mommy told you you are. It must be that YOUR spot was snatched by an upstart Hispanic billionaire who rode to his interview on a golden pony and who had a 2.0 and a 14 on the MCAT. Of course.

/thread.

But to keep it going...

But fundamentally, cultural reflection has been internal. I mean, Barack Obama has been elected as president by what most considered to be a landslide.

If he can be a PRESIDENT by a democratic vote, that means there is limited--though not inexistent--external hinderance. It means it can be overcome. It means more people should listen to Bill Cosby and less to Al Sharpton.

You can't use President Obama. He is technically the son of African immigrant. So, if we use arguments for separating African Americans from African immigrants in the URM category, then we would need to wait for a African American person whose parents/grandparents suffered through jim crow/etc in the US became president.

 

[youngMeddy]

although I tend to disagree with him, i actually like dokein's argument style. you should definitely think about moving into politics someday.

On a separate note, I wanted to address the african immigrant vs. african american argument. Let say you could separate the "true" measures of a good doctor: MCAT + GPA by African immigrants vs. African americans. I am pretty sure that African immigrants' scores would be higher. A matter a fact, I think that they would be comparable to ORMs. Thus, at the top med schools I believe that URMs and ORMs' stats are very similar. A matter a fact, a Harvard MS study I posted earlier showed this.

Ergo, contrary to popular SDN belief, the URMs who are "stealing spots" are acutally competitive applicants if you go by merely MCAT + GPA. You shouldn't take anything for granted even with amazing stats, such as the OP did. I mean he got 4 acceptances, correct? Not meant to flame, but:

While most people are arguing whether Asians are better than whites or just equal, sometimes they score worse. In Sanda Scarr's study of adopted children, adopted whites had the highest IQs, adopted blacks were still 10 points above average, but adopted Asians were only average. Asians score worse in both math and verbals in cities like Seattle and Washington DC where the whites are way above and Asians are way below the national per-capita income and education. Asians score worse on medical review board despite higher grades and MCAT scores.

My point is that, SE does play a role and MCAT + GPA are not absolute measures. Thus, if URMs have lower SE, which they do, it makes sense that their scores may be lower. So does that mean that all Asians higher SE. Nope. That is why this is a disadvantaged circumstance part of the application. Does that mean that all URMs are poor? Nope. So if their is anything unfair about this system it would be that rich URMs who have the same educational advantages as ORMs are getting in. But they are getting in b/c they have been shown to more likely work in underserved communities compared to ORMs. Then again, how many rich URMs are there...

To my earlier point, if AA is a policy in MS admissions, then it is not benefiting African Americans as it should. But as was said earlier, URM does not equal AA. The goal is address a diversifying U.S according to scientific proof (see patients prefer same race doctor studies). Some would argue this is still a form of AA action. You could say that, but then I would argue that AA is only prevalent in lower-tier medical schools because at top MSs URM are competitive by MCAT + GPA standards.


Disclaimer: this post is confusing

 

[youngMeddy]

There is often the argument that if a URM applicant and white applicant with identical stats, the black applicant have a lot of a better chance of admission. But as I mentioned this fails to take into account other parts of the application. Such as that URM are more likely to have a disadvantaged background. Find me a study that accounts for differences in educational background in relation to MS admissions, and say that URMs still have a better chance. Then you can claim discrimination. Not merely on GPA and MCAT. I have an Asian friend with better stats than the OP and amazing ECs (like national awards). He is going to one of the medical school the OP got accepted to. Do I think he deserves better? Yes, but I was not there for his interviews. I did not see his PS. He is not the most socially inept person I know... In sum, many factors are involved. You may not be content with the system, but rock MS and get a great residency. OFFICIAL DONE

 

[archimedesxx]

although I tend to disagree with him, i actually like dokein's argument style. you should definitely think about moving into politics someday.

On a separate note, I wanted to address the african immigrant vs. african american argument. Let say you could separate the "true" measures of a good doctor: MCAT + GPA by African immigrants vs. African americans. I am pretty sure that African immigrants' scores would be higher. A matter a fact, I think that they would be comparable to ORMs. Thus, at the top med schools I believe that URMs and ORMs' stats are very similar. A matter a fact, a Harvard MS study I posted earlier showed this.

Ergo, contrary to popular SDN belief, the URMs who are "stealing spots" are acutally competitive applicants if you go by merely MCAT + GPA. You shouldn't take anything for granted even with amazing stats, such as the OP did. I mean he got 4 acceptances, correct? Not meant to flame, but:

While most people are arguing whether Asians are better than whites or just equal, sometimes they score worse. In Sanda Scarr's study of adopted children, adopted whites had the highest IQs, adopted blacks were still 10 points above average, but adopted Asians were only average. Asians score worse in both math and verbals in cities like Seattle and Washington DC where the whites are way above and Asians are way below the national per-capita income and education. Asians score worse on medical review board despite higher grades and MCAT scores.

My point is that, SE does play a role and MCAT + GPA are not absolute measures. Thus, if URMs have lower SE, which they do, it makes sense that their scores may be lower. So does that mean that all Asians higher SE. Nope. That is why this is a disadvantaged circumstance part of the application. Does that mean that all URMs are poor? Nope. So if their is anything unfair about this system it would be that rich URMs who have the same educational advantages as ORMs are getting in. But they are getting in b/c they have been shown to more likely work in underserved communities compared to ORMs. Then again, how many rich URMs are there...

To my earlier point, if AA is a policy in MS admissions, then it is not benefiting African Americans as it should. But as was said earlier, URM does not equal AA. The goal is address a diversifying U.S according to scientific proof (see patients prefer same race doctor studies). Some would argue this is still a form of AA action. You could say that, but then I would argue that AA is only prevalent in lower-tier medical schools because at top MSs URM are competitive by MCAT + GPA standards.


Disclaimer: this post is confusing

This post basically sums up everything I've been trying to drive home on this God-forbidden thread. Everyone shd read this.

 

[mercy82]

Since we are now on the topic of the educational history of Africans lets remember the great pyramids in Africa. This wonder gives insight into the intellectual capacity of ancient Africans. We know now that building those pyramids in Africa required exceptional scientific and mathematical reasoning. This fact alone should put to rest any doubt we have about the intellectual strength of Africans!

 

[amikeMD]

Since we are now on the topic of the educational history of Africans lets remember the great pyramids in Africa. This wonder gives insight into the intellectual capacity of ancient Africans. We know now that building those pyramids in Africa required exceptional scientific and mathematical reasoning. This fact alone should put to rest any doubt we have about the intellectual strength of Africans!

Along this line, I have a question. Why is it that African immigrants are now becoming known as the next migration of intellect into the US by many people in our government? I was watching a PBS social program and one of the political/social professors brought up a point relating to this trend. This a little surprising because technically there were many colonial policies that were similar to Jim-Crow that were still in place much longer than they were in the U.S. How come African immigrants in seem to be recovering and exceeding their counterparts faster than African Americans?

 

[FSAP]

Since we are now on the topic of the educational history of Africans lets remember the great pyramids in Africa. This wonder gives insight into the intellectual capacity of ancient Africans. We know now that building those pyramids in Africa required exceptional scientific and mathematical reasoning. This fact alone should put to rest any doubt we have about the intellectual strength of Africans!

Ah, it was the aliens! I kid I kid

 

[rctriplefresh5]

lol dude robert wood johnson has a lot of asians working there. i had an asian neuro surgeon (worst neurosurgeon ever) his name was dr lee, if you ever have a brain tumor dont go to this man he sucks.

 

[rctriplefresh5]

...

 

[mercy82]

Along this line, I have a question. Why is it that African immigrants are now becoming known as the next migration of intellect into the US by many people in our government? I was watching a PBS social program and one of the political/social professors brought up a point relating to this trend. This a little surprising because technically there were many colonial policies that were similar to Jim-Crow that were still in place much longer than they were in the U.S. How come African immigrants in seem to be recovering and exceeding their counterparts faster than African Americans?

Thats a great question amikeMD. Simplisticly put, it all as to do with culture. The African American community is still plagued by the residual effects of Jim Crow laws and there is a culture that is being perpetuated that does not place a sufficiently great emphasis on the importance of education. What Africans, carribbean blacks, Jews and asian have in common is the fact that these groups place a high value on educational success. These groups also demonstrate the immigrant effect; parents working hard to ensure the success of the next generation. One can also argue that Africans, caribbean blacks and African americans are not viewed the same in our society. According to a article published in the Journal of higher education about black students at top universities, Africans and caribbean blacks are seen as less "threatening" than their African american counterparts and as such this aid in their success.

 

[amikeMD]

african AMERICANS are pretty much as a whole idiots.

not to sound rascist, but i believe heavily in stereotypes.

Wow...

 

[NickNaylor]

african AMERICANS are pretty much as a whole idiots.

not to sound rascist, but i believe heavily in stereotypes.

 

[rctriplefresh5]

Wow...

ok that came out wrong. i meant the image they exude in america..

all the gangster ****.. i have black friends, but most of america is full of the gangsters type. im sure africa is a little different.


and a lot of sterotypes for all races are mostly true, you cant deny that...

 

[zempa]

Since we are now on the topic of the educational history of Africans lets remember the great pyramids in Africa. This wonder gives insight into the intellectual capacity of ancient Africans. We know now that building those pyramids in Africa required exceptional scientific and mathematical reasoning. This fact alone should put to rest any doubt we have about the intellectual strength of Africans!

r we now grouping all of Africa into Egypt/North Africa...

 

[amikeMD]

Thats a great question amikeMD. Simplisticly put, it all as to do with culture. The African American community is still plagued by the residual effects of Jim Crow laws and there is a culture that is being perpetuated that does not place a sufficiently great emphasis on the importance of education. What Africans, carribbean blacks, Jews and asian have in common is the fact that these groups place a high value on educational success. These groups also demonstrate the immigrant effect; parents working hard to ensure the success of the next generation. One can also argue that Africans, caribbean blacks and African americans are not viewed the same in our society. According to a article published in the Journal of higher education about black students at top universities, Africans and caribbean blacks are seen as less "threatening" than their African american counterparts and as such this aid in their success.

Yes, I guess that is a good explanation. But what do you mean by less threatening? You mean in terms of appearance such as clothes and stature?

Also, does this mean that there really hasn't been as much progress in educating African Americans in the past few decades as we are lead to believe, because African immigrants may be skewing the figures?

Edit:

Now that I think about it, many of the black people in my upper level science classes are probably African immigrants.

 

[yearn4ivy]

Considering the end result and the amount of help we (the Jews) had, I really do believe that African slaves had it worse. I'm just going to copy and paste it.

I was referring to the fact that the Jewish people retained its culture, its superior level of education, and their professions. This was NOT the case for African slaves and their descendants. Their education, culture, and freedom was completely lost because the slave trade lasted for centuries, whereas the Holocaust lasted less than a decade. Not long after the Holocaust, we even got our own nation. Again, I think compared to African slaves we were "fortunate".

FDR was not a very good president to the Jews, but Truman was. Truman had a close Jewish friend who personally influenced his decisions regarding what to do with Holocaust survivors. That's why so many were able to emigrate to the United States after the war. General (and later president) Eisenhower was in charge of dealing with the temporary refugee camps and he was extremely gracious, too. Without their help, Israel never would have been founded. Did Africans have advocates like these? No.

Also understand that there was already a sizable Jewish population in the United States, with serious political capital. That's also why there are many Jewish-American WWII veterans. They were able to provide money and a way to start anew in the United States. Did Africans have families in the US who immigrated a generation or two earlier to help out? No.

Anyway, I'm sorry you took offense and I hope this explains things better. I truly believe that it is inappropriate to compare African slavery to the Holocaust, because whereas we were able to bounce back, African-American culture is still left in ruins.

Zempa and FutureDoc read the above

 

[yearn4ivy]

ok that came out wrong. i meant the image they exude in america..

all the gangster ****.. i have black friends, but most of america is full of the gangsters type. im sure africa is a little different.


and a lot of sterotypes for all races are mostly true, you cant deny that...

WOW!

 

[Bernoull]

Along this line, I have a question. Why is it that African immigrants are now becoming known as the next migration of intellect into the US by many people in our government? I was watching a PBS social program and one of the political/social professors brought up a point relating to this trend. This a little surprising because technically there were many colonial policies that were similar to Jim-Crow that were still in place much longer than they were in the U.S. How come African immigrants in seem to be recovering and exceeding their counterparts faster than African Americans?

The colonial experience is vastly different from slavery/segregation experience. Even with colonization there were vast differences in how the vast differences in how european powers ran their colonies. U can't separate they slavery exp from segregation either, both experiences affect the state of African American affairs. African immigrants did not experience anything close to US blacks (south africa had some parallels though)/

 

[amikeMD]

i have black friends

 

[mercy82]

r we now grouping all of Africa into Egypt/North Africa...

Did you mean are we grouping Egypt/north Africa into Africa? If so yes!!! Isnt the whole continent Africa

 

[mercy82]

Yes, I guess that is a good explanation. But what do you mean by less threatening? You mean in terms of appearance such as clothes and stature?

Also, does this mean that there really hasn't been as much progress in educating African Americans in the past few decades as we are lead to believe, because African immigrants may be skewing the figures?

Edit:

Now that I think about it, many of the black people in my upper level science classes are probably African immigrants.

Well according to the article I reference earlier "To white observers, black immigrants seem morepolite, less hostile, more solicitous, and “easier to get along with.” Native blacks are perceived in precisely the opposite fashion." You should check out the article... its very interesting!!!

 

[mercy82]

The colonial experience is vastly different from slavery/segregation experience. Even with colonization there were vast differences in how the vast differences in how european powers ran their colonies. U can't separate they slavery exp from segregation either, both experiences affect the state of African American affairs. African immigrants did not experience anything close to US blacks (south africa had some parallels though)/

While the colonial experience was different from the slavery experience, I think its gross exaggeration to state it was vastly different. Sometimes the verbal accounts of the colonial experience is water downed. Remember the whole reason the Haitans revolt? Its not because they were satistified with the way they were treated. Also colonized people had no rights, limited educational opportunities and was almost completely dependent on their colonizer.

 

[yearn4ivy]

If you don't know anything then why are you making declarative statements? Feel free to comment on the subjects you know but otherwise you should be asking questions, not spouting off garbage like an ignorant fool.

Like gplex86 said, dokein you really should be asking questions about African history, instead of "spouting garbage like an ignorant fool"

Most of SubSaharan African were organized in kingdoms, but there were also smaller groups. You obviously do not know this, but why should you? How else will slavery, colonization and apartheid in South Africa be justified ?

There is the Kingdom of Ashanti (in present day Ghana); Kingdoms of Benin, Oyo, Nri, Aro (in present day Nigeria); the Kingdom of Kongo

You seem to forget the ancient city of Timbuktu in Mali, a center of transSaharan trade.

OR King Ngola of Ndogo ,where the Portuguese erroneously thought the people were calling their home Ngola, rather they were referring to their rule. Still, the Portuguese went ahead to call it Angola.

So, as you can see, there were African civilization, who had values, knowledge and skills they passed on to future generations.

 

[yearn4ivy]

The colonial experience is vastly different from slavery/segregation experience. Even with colonization there were vast differences in how the vast differences in how european powers ran their colonies. U can't separate they slavery exp from segregation either, both experiences affect the state of African American affairs. African immigrants did not experience anything close to US blacks (south africa had some parallels though)/

Hey Hey hey
I know where you are from Rolling up with an avatar like that and then your signature

Anyway, Greetings to the King of Kings, the Lion of Judah

 

[zempa]

Zempa and FutureDoc read the above

ye I read it and I thought it was stupid.You really shouldn't and can't compare two such horrific events. To say that one group got off better is ridiculous. Whole families were eradicated - the Nazis did a very thorough job. Not to mention that the war created many many refugees, kids and adults alike without homes and fractured lives. Many of these people ended up poor, really without anything. The war also destroyed the schooling that many people would have received. In the end many many different people were persecuted by many other people. Arguably every culture and ethnicity was at some point the oppressed and oppressor - the only way to overcome such events is to just work hard. I've said this before and other people have mentioned this too; the spirit of the civil rights movement has in part been lost. It's been replaced by people like Al Sharpton who just stir up racial tensions for no reason.

 

[yearn4ivy]

ye I read it and I thought it was stupid.You really shouldn't and can't compare two such horrific events. To say that one group got off better is ridiculous. Whole families were eradicated - the Nazis did a very thorough job. Not to mention that the war created many many refugees, kids and adults alike without homes and fractured lives. Many of these people ended up poor, really without anything. The war also destroyed the schooling that many people would have received. In the end many many different people were persecuted by many other people. Arguably every culture and ethnicity was at some point the oppressed and oppressor - the only way to overcome such events is to just work hard. I've said this before and other people have mentioned this too; the spirit of the civil rights movement has in part been lost. It's been replaced by people like Al Sharpton who just stir up racial tensions for no reason.

Whole groups were eradicated during slavery, what say you.
Like I said, comparing the experiences of Jews and Afr Americans is like comparing brocolli to apples. Very different!

I think I have made my point.

 

[7starmantis]

This thread is killing me....

Who had it worse, who was repressed more, blah blah blah


<----- Native American FTW

 

[Pianoman32]

Does this thread remind anyone else of the episode of South Park when Stan's Dad goes on Wheel of Fortune and gets the clue "people who annoy you" and the letters showing are "n_ggers." He of course says the "N" word thinking that's what it was, but the real answer was naggers. Anyway, Stan and Token (he's the black guy) end up getting into a race war because Stan says he understands why Token is upset. However, Token says there is no way Stan can understand why Token is upset. Stan's dad then proceeds to kiss Jessie Jackson's ass while Jackson rants "appologize." Stan then tells Token that his dad appologized to Jessie Jackson. Token still says Stan doesn't understand, and that Jessie Jackson isn't the king of black people.

Anyway, to make a long story short, Stan finally says to Token that he doesn't understand. Token says that by not understanding, he finally understands.

Oh, and the words "n!gger guy" become illegal to say within 3 words of one another because they are offensive to people who have used the "N" word in the past like Michael Richards. This is a sensitive part of their history that they don't want to be continually reminded of.

Does anyone else find the parallels of this episode surprisingly similar to this thread?

 

[zempa]

Did you mean are we grouping Egypt/north Africa into Africa? If so yes!!! Isnt the whole continent Africa

No I meant what I wrote. It's inane to attribute a characteristic to a whole continent on the basis of a very specific region of that continent. Was the whole of Africa a center of science and learning and the producer of magnificent architectural achievements.

yearn4ivy - I'm not going to argue with you anymore - I've already said that both groups had it very badly and I have actually never said that one group had it worse or better. It seems to me, however, and correct me if I'm wrong that you keep trying to show that African Americans/ Blacks had it worse. Is this some type of competition?

 

[stevesavi]

Did you mean are we grouping Egypt/north Africa into Africa? If so yes!!! Isnt the whole continent Africa

I don't think he was. I think he was demonstrating that it's erroneous to attribute the successes of the egyptians to africa as a whole b/c ehtnically/culturally egypt was more like the middle east than the rest of Africa.

 

[zidrem]

Just wanted to commend the OP for pointing out what a ****-show this country is with regards to how it tries to cater to everyone.

Say what you want about socioeconomic status, but it's just wrong to differentiate on skin color rather than credentials; I don't think I've ever seen an argument that could convince me otherwise.

Sorry OP - hope you will have a good experience at one of those schools even though they weren't what you were necessarily hoping for :<

 

[Bernoull]

While the colonial experience was different from the slavery experience, I think its gross exaggeration to state it was vastly different. Sometimes the verbal accounts of the colonial experience is water downed. Remember the whole reason the Haitans revolt? Its not because they were satistified with the way they were treated. Also colonized people had no rights, limited educational opportunities and was almost completely dependent on their colonizer.

Thanks for the lecture, but I am an African immigrant. I know what colonial rule was like in Africa. My parents and grandparents grew up in that period. Yes by definition, the colonial powers oppressed the people they colonized, imposed their language, usurped economic and political power and violently suppressed revolts. However, unlike the African American experience, the colonized Africans maintained INTACT FAMILIES, our indigenous culture, languages, traditions and religions. We had access to education, travel, some political freedom, economic rights and infinitely more personal freedom than our fellow African American. (Besides maybe S. Africa) there was not the wholesale persecution, concerted program to completed subjugate a group and instill a sense of inferiority and break their dignity and humanity. This among other things, is VASTLY different from the experience of slavery/segregation. In the US, the goal was to break the will of American Americans, family bonds were broken - children were separated parents and indoctrinated from birth to be subservient and utterly dependent on their masters (talk about stockholm syndrome)..

Colonized Africans suffered a lot too, but there are degrees of horror that need to be appreciated here and the African American experience (scale, degree, dimensions, time) is on a whole other level..

Personally, discounting the differences in the two experiences is insulting to the horror African Americans went through..

Haiti like the US had slavery, and like the US the slaves occasionaly revolted (who wouldn't??) but unlike the US, the Haitians successfully revolted (1791) and abolished slavery..

 

[Bernoull]

Like gplex86 said, dokein you really should be asking questions about African history, instead of "spouting garbage like an ignorant fool"

Most of SubSaharan African were organized in kingdoms, but there were also smaller groups. You obviously do not know this, but why should you? How else will slavery, colonization and apartheid in South Africa be justified ?

There is the Kingdom of Ashanti (in present day Ghana); Kingdoms of Benin, Oyo, Nri, Aro (in present day Nigeria); the Kingdom of Kongo

You seem to forget the ancient city of Timbuktu in Mali, a center of transSaharan trade.

OR King Ngola of Ndogo ,where the Portuguese erroneously thought the people were calling their home Ngola, rather they were referring to their rule. Still, the Portuguese went ahead to call it Angola.

So, as you can see, there were African civilization, who had values, knowledge and skills they passed on to future generations.

We had Universities also, Sankore (Timbuktu, 12th century), had the largest library in Africa since Alexandria, there was Al-Karoune (Fez, Morrocco, 9th century)

 

[amikeMD]

Thanks for the lecture, but I am an African immigrant. I know what colonial rule was like in Africa. My parents and grandparents grew up in that period. Yes by definition, the colonial powers oppressed the people they colonized, imposed their language, usurped economic and political power and violently suppressed revolts. However, unlike the African American experience, the colonized Africans maintained INTACT FAMILIES, our indigenous culture, languages, traditions and religions. We had access to education, travel, some political freedom, economic rights and infinitely more personal freedom than our fellow African American. (Besides maybe S. Africa) there was not the wholesale persecution, concerted program to completed subjugate a group and instill a sense of inferiority and break their dignity and humanity. This among other things, is VASTLY different from the experience of slavery/segregation. In the US, the goal was to break the will of American Americans, family bonds were broken - children were separated parents and indoctrinated from birth to be subservient and utterly dependent on their masters (talk about stockholm syndrome)..

Colonized Africans suffered a lot too, but there are degrees of horror that need to be appreciated here and the African American experience (scale, degree, dimensions, time) is on a whole other level..

Personally, discounting the differences in the two experiences is insulting to the horror African Americans went through..

Haiti like the US had slavery, and like the US the slaves occasionaly revolted (who wouldn't??) but unlike the US, the Haitians successfully revolted (1791) and abolished slavery..

Ahh, okay. I always thought the experiences were essentially the same.

 

[FutureDoc4]

Zempa and FutureDoc read the above

Yearn4ivy, this is the message I had sent to gp earlier. I still very much belief you and he/she have a very, very poor understanding about what Jews have gone throughout history (beyond even the Holocaust). Please read up on it.

Earlier Private message:
But, to say we got things back afterward the terrible events Jews have undergone like the Holocaust? The families that died... there was no recoup from that... families that survived the Holocaust were NOT given back their houses, land, property... they had to COMPLETELY start over...German and European families kept the land and items that was seized from Jewish families...these items were NOT returned (even if descendents came back, I was recently in Eastern Europe...at a small market and you can see merchants STILL selling items from jewish homes from the time period---the area I happened to be in was very antisemetic).... I am just amazed you could make a comment like that .... so many Jews (in fact MILLIONS), lost everything.

This is me just talking about the Holocaust... not even mentioning the tons and tons of groups that have tried to not only whip Jews off the face of the Earth but make us into slaves or worse.

Finally, I have to say, I don't understand how you can say that we had "advocates" in America... at the time.. this country has come a long way... but initially they wouldn't accept Jewish immigrants (They didn't want people coming from Europe--we weren't welcome almost anywhere in Europe... hence, Israel in lots in of ways was a way to further get rid of the Jews of Europe).


I hope I did not come across as giving you a lecture. I just want you to take a closer look at Jewish history... understand what the Jewish people have gone through and more. I wish you the best.

 

[yearn4ivy]

To ZEMPA,

It is unsurprising that you forget the point of the discussion, since I was repsonding to specific comments by Dokein before you decided to jump into the fray of things.

You will find Dokein's comment bolded below, as well gplex86's contribution, which I very much appreciate because it concisely and clearly explains my thoughts

Even ignoring that argument, yes, black culture in the U.S. may be attributed in part, probably in large part, to past racial issues. You don't think those racial issues are at all comparable to Jews being persecuted and discriminated against for nearly two thousand and being denied university admissions and professorships and nobel prizes on account of their ethnicity? Going through the mother****ing Holocaust? Tell me how much studying helps when you're in a Nazi concentration camp. None at all. Do you think Jews ever got AA? At some point change needs to come from within.

I mean at some point in your life you have to get over it. If you can't demonstrate that you've gotten over it by performing through college (presumably if you get to college you're well aware of the value of education), who's to say that you'll get over it during medical school, or residency, or as an attending? If it affects your performance in college maybe it'll affect your outcomes as a physician.

Considering the end result and the amount of help we (the Jews) had, I really do believe that African slaves had it worse. I'm just going to copy and paste it.

I was referring to the fact that the Jewish people retained its culture, its superior level of education, and their professions. This was NOT the case for African slaves and their descendants. Their education, culture, and freedom was completely lost because the slave trade lasted for centuries, whereas the Holocaust lasted less than a decade. Not long after the Holocaust, we even got our own nation. Again, I think compared to African slaves we were "fortunate".

FDR was not a very good president to the Jews, but Truman was. Truman had a close Jewish friend who personally influenced his decisions regarding what to do with Holocaust survivors. That's why so many were able to emigrate to the United States after the war. General (and later president) Eisenhower was in charge of dealing with the temporary refugee camps and he was extremely gracious, too. Without their help, Israel never would have been founded. Did Africans have advocates like these? No.

Also understand that there was already a sizable Jewish population in the United States, with serious political capital. That's also why there are many Jewish-American WWII veterans. They were able to provide money and a way to start anew in the United States. Did Africans have families in the US who immigrated a generation or two earlier to help out? No.

Anyway, I'm sorry you took offense and I hope this explains things better. I truly believe that it is inappropriate to compare African slavery to the Holocaust, because whereas we were able to bounce back, African-American culture is still left in ruins.

In addition, futuredoc I am in no way discounting the horrors of the holocaust. The transatlantic slavery and the holocaust are certainly monumental events of evil in human history. The difference is that Afr American still suffer in their own country, which they built with sweat, forced free labor and unimaginable suffering.

But you talk about not being able to recover property, this is a frequent occurence during domestic wars.
Look at Sri Lanka, the Tamils are sequestered in refugee camps. Where are their properties?
Look at the Darfurians, their lands have been seized and they too eck our an existence in refugee camps.
Ad infinitum.

 

[yearn4ivy]

We had Universities also, Sankore (Timbuktu, 12th century), had the largest library in Africa since Alexandria, there was Al-Karoune (Fez, Morrocco, 9th century)

I have to add the Great Zimbabwe stone buildings.
But in then racist Rhodesia, the origins of the site was disputed, since it suggested pre-colonial architecture and civilization.
Some even went as far as to say that this was King Solomon's mines, because these barbarians are incapable of building anything with stone.

 

[chelala]

.......
Some of you live in a bubble.