My story. Grateful for advice.

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lakum

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Hello all. I've been reading this forum (specifically the non-trad sub) for a few months and am very grateful that so many people have taken so much time to post their expert opinions.

From what I gather, my situation isn't much different than a lot of other "older" or non-traditional students. The confusing part for me has been trying to determine just how unrealistic it is to pursue this path. For that reason, I decided to register and post my details to receive feedback.

I do apologize for all the details. I've read thousands of posts at this point and have always found it hard to read those posts with so many details. I suppose once we put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) we feel like every point is important to best guide (or influence) the advice we will receive on this important decision.

Financial Background: I'm 40, married, no children, no debt, substantial savings. Regarding finances, I have enough saved that I could go to school full-time and, if necessary, pay for medical school out of pocket.

Professional background: I work as a government contractor in Washington, DC. I've already 'peaked' in my field and do not enjoy it. The career itself is not sustainable and so I will be making a switch this year regardless of whether medical school is an option.

Education:
Undergraduate. I completed my undergrad in 2003 when I was 26. I come from a poor family and worked full-time throughout the latter part of high school and all of college. I attended community college and then commuted to a state university while working. My undergrad degree is Management of Information Systems and my final GPA is 2.78. The only science courses I took were Biology I and II and I received a B in both.

Graduate. Last year I completed a graduate degree in International Relations from Northeastern University and achieved a GPA of 4.0. While the degree can be helpful for my career, I pursued it more out of interest.

Family Background: Not interesting but it's an important part of my narrative. I mentioned I come from a poor background. My parents did what they could, but they did not know how to encourage me academically. I never knew my academic potential in high school and undergrad - to me, life was more about brute force working 10-12 hours in a restaurant to help the family and finish school. I didn't have the money for a junky car let alone the money to live on campus to study full-time and explore different potential careers. As unrealistic (to most) as it sounds, living on campus was a "rich thing" that some of my wealthy friends from school did but was not an option for someone from my background. I was the first in my family to attend college and studied MIS which was a hot degree (at the time) that would help me get a job so I could make money and have a chance of staying out of poverty.

Why medical school: The million dollar question. I suspect my answer won't resonate with most and might get me tarred and feathered! I've never been too interested in most science topics. I loved human physiology in high school and biology in undergrad but never took chemistry or physics. Those courses weren't required and I wasn't interested enough to pursue them as electives. To be honest, I'm still not excited about chemistry or physics, but I'm not so averse to the topics that I couldn't study hard and get an A in each. I do, however, love physiology. I love the human body and medical science. My father in law is a doctor and since getting married I have been surrounded by doctors. I have been exposed enough to the field to understand the challenges and rewards that come along with being a doctor today. Most of the doctors I know are 50+ and took the traditional path, so they can't offer much advice for my situation like you all can. However, everyone I've talked with says "absolutely do it" if it's possible because they believe I would be successful in the field.

An important note regarding career objectives: My ultimate desire is to work for a missionary or aid organization. I'm fortunate to have a financial nest egg to allow me to pursue what truly matters in my heart - helping under privileged people in the U.S. and overseas. That would be my career path, understanding it's not much of a career because I would not be paid much (if at all).

Path Forward: The way I see it, to determine how realistic this option is for me I need to take some classes and really spend time immersed in the sciences. I have the means and drive to pursue this full-time at a university for the next two years and lay the groundwork with pre-reqs and an above average score on the MCAT. My desire would be to attend a DO program and I'm leaning toward Liberty University for two reasons: first, I want to be realistic that I am unlikely to get into an MD school. Second, as a second career, I have the flexibility to pursue this the way I want to do it. Throughout my career I checked boxes (certifications, degrees, etc.) to help my upward mobility. I'm no longer interested in helping my career. I want to focus on helping people and Liberty aligns with my values and may give me the best (perhaps only) shot at pursuing this option. I know Liberty's program is not too popular on this forum. I'm ok with that.

Sorry for the long essay. One final point I'd like to make: I don't want to be flippant about my interest and passion for this field. I want to be realistic. I understand from the thousands of posts that I've read that 1) pre-req courses are where med school dreams go to die, 2) there's someone better, stronger, more capable competing against me at any moment, and 3) for every non traditional student who overcame the odds, ten others have failed. If I did not have a substantial savings and the drive to commit to this full-time, I would never consider it based on the many posts I've read. If I have anything to bring to this fight, it's tenacity. Once I start the process, I will not give up and will do everything in my power to succeed. One thing I can say about my life is that I've fought for every victory. Hard work is the norm.

Thanks for reading and thank you very much for any advice.

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Hello all. I've been reading this forum (specifically the non-trad sub) for a few months and am very grateful that so many people have taken so much time to post their expert opinions.

From what I gather, my situation isn't much different than a lot of other "older" or non-traditional students. The confusing part for me has been trying to determine just how unrealistic it is to pursue this path. For that reason, I decided to register and post my details to receive feedback.

I do apologize for all the details. I've read thousands of posts at this point and have always found it hard to read those posts with so many details. I suppose once we put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) we feel like every point is important to best guide (or influence) the advice we will receive on this important decision.

Financial Background: I'm 40, married, no children, no debt, substantial savings. Regarding finances, I have enough saved that I could go to school full-time and, if necessary, pay for medical school out of pocket.

Professional background: I work as a government contractor in Washington, DC. I've already 'peaked' in my field and do not enjoy it. The career itself is not sustainable and so I will be making a switch this year regardless of whether medical school is an option.

Education:
Undergraduate. I completed my undergrad in 2003 when I was 26. I come from a poor family and worked full-time throughout the latter part of high school and all of college. I attended community college and then commuted to a state university while working. My undergrad degree is Management of Information Systems and my final GPA is 2.78. The only science courses I took were Biology I and II and I received a B in both.

Graduate. Last year I completed a graduate degree in International Relations from Northeastern University and achieved a GPA of 4.0. While the degree can be helpful for my career, I pursued it more out of interest.

Family Background: Not interesting but it's an important part of my narrative. I mentioned I come from a poor background. My parents did what they could, but they did not know how to encourage me academically. I never knew my academic potential in high school and undergrad - to me, life was more about brute force working 10-12 hours in a restaurant to help the family and finish school. I didn't have the money for a junky car let alone the money to live on campus to study full-time and explore different potential careers. As unrealistic (to most) as it sounds, living on campus was a "rich thing" that some of my wealthy friends from school did but was not an option for someone from my background. I was the first in my family to attend college and studied MIS which was a hot degree (at the time) that would help me get a job so I could make money and have a chance of staying out of poverty.

Why medical school: The million dollar question. I suspect my answer won't resonate with most and might get me tarred and feathered! I've never been too interested in most science topics. I loved human physiology in high school and biology in undergrad but never took chemistry or physics. Those courses weren't required and I wasn't interested enough to pursue them as electives. To be honest, I'm still not excited about chemistry or physics, but I'm not so averse to the topics that I couldn't study hard and get an A in each. I do, however, love physiology. I love the human body and medical science. My father in law is a doctor and since getting married I have been surrounded by doctors. I have been exposed enough to the field to understand the challenges and rewards that come along with being a doctor today. Most of the doctors I know are 50+ and took the traditional path, so they can't offer much advice for my situation like you all can. However, everyone I've talked with says "absolutely do it" if it's possible because they believe I would be successful in the field.

An important note regarding career objectives: My ultimate desire is to work for a missionary or aid organization. I'm fortunate to have a financial nest egg to allow me to pursue what truly matters in my heart - helping under privileged people in the U.S. and overseas. That would be my career path, understanding it's not much of a career because I would not be paid much (if at all).

Path Forward: The way I see it, to determine how realistic this option is for me I need to take some classes and really spend time immersed in the sciences. I have the means and drive to pursue this full-time at a university for the next two years and lay the groundwork with pre-reqs and an above average score on the MCAT. My desire would be to attend a DO program and I'm leaning toward Liberty University for two reasons: first, I want to be realistic that I am unlikely to get into an MD school. Second, as a second career, I have the flexibility to pursue this the way I want to do it. Throughout my career I checked boxes (certifications, degrees, etc.) to help my upward mobility. I'm no longer interested in helping my career. I want to focus on helping people and Liberty aligns with my values and may give me the best (perhaps only) shot at pursuing this option. I know Liberty's program is not too popular on this forum. I'm ok with that.

Sorry for the long essay. One final point I'd like to make: I don't want to be flippant about my interest and passion for this field. I want to be realistic. I understand from the thousands of posts that I've read that 1) pre-req courses are where med school dreams go to die, 2) there's someone better, stronger, more capable competing against me at any moment, and 3) for every non traditional student who overcame the odds, ten others have failed. If I did not have a substantial savings and the drive to commit to this full-time, I would never consider it based on the many posts I've read. If I have anything to bring to this fight, it's tenacity. Once I start the process, I will not give up and will do everything in my power to succeed. One thing I can say about my life is that I've fought for every victory. Hard work is the norm.

Thanks for reading and thank you very much for any advice.
So definitely check this out if you haven't: Goro’s advice for DO applicants in the absence of grade replacement

That will tell you what you will need to accomplish when you go back to school and when you take the MCAT. You don't fully know what schools you will be able to attend until you know what your post-bac GPA is and what your MCAT score will be.

Good luck and kick those stats in the balls.
 
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Definitely check out oldpremeds.org and the podcasts with Dr. Ryan Gray.

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Your grades are old enough that you could move to Texas, establish residency, do the prereqs, take the MCAT and apply with a 4.0 (if you ace all the prereqs) and no TX school will ever see your old grades. That may seem extreme but the amount of post bac work to get a GPA even in the ballpark would probably be more and you'd still be applying with a much lower GPA.
 
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I'd be concerned if you're saying you already don't like the chemistry or physics. Orgo and those other courses are very heavy. It's more than just studying "really hard." You have to push yourself very hard to do all the work and you can't get anything less than a B at worst.

Other than that, you have a 3.0 sGPA right now so if you do well in a post-bacc, you can bump that up considerably.
Not having debt and having the capital to finance medical school are very good things too.
 
Your grades are old enough that you could move to Texas, establish residency, do the prereqs, take the MCAT and apply with a 4.0 (if you ace all the prereqs) and no TX school will ever see your old grades. That may seem extreme but the amount of post bac work to get a GPA even in the ballpark would probably be more and you'd still be applying with a much lower GPA.

Thanks for the idea. My wife and I love Texas and would consider this option. I'm looking into it, but am definitely concerned with having to wait a year to establish residency before taking any classes. I need to start chemistry and other classes now to determine if I can handle the rigor.

For anyone looking for details, here's the Texas academic fresh start details: TMDSAS Medical: Texas Academic Fresh Start

Edited to add: It looks like the Academic Fresh Start program in Texas is probably a 'no go' for me. If I'm reading the requirements correctly, I would be required to complete at least 90 undergraduate credits under the program before applying to medical school. By applying to undergrad under the Fresh Start program a student is essentially completely erasing his academic past (greater than 10 years) and starting over. An undergrad is not required for medical school, hence the 90 credit minimum (including pre-reqs), but that means starting over. So one year to wait for residency, then at least three years of undergrad study, then apply to med school, etc. I'm not a senior citizen but do have to be mindful of my age in this process and that would be a stretch. I'd be better fighting the odds through taking courses at community college while still working.
 
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I'd be concerned if you're saying you already don't like the chemistry or physics. Orgo and those other courses are very heavy. It's more than just studying "really hard." You have to push yourself very hard to do all the work and you can't get anything less than a B at worst.

Other than that, you have a 3.0 sGPA right now so if you do well in a post-bacc, you can bump that up considerably.
Not having debt and having the capital to finance medical school are very good things too.

Exactly. I'm considering taking chemistry at community college this summer to see if I can get at least a B. If I can't, then there's my answer for this career path.
 
Without grade replacement, if I was you, I would move to Texas and do school full time. I did my own post bac coming from 2.6 and accepted this year. Here's some of the reasons for your situation.
1/ no more grade replacement. People say it won't affect much if you do well in your post bac. But I wouldn't take that chance now.
2/ You have good financial situation. You can afford to go school full times and knock out classes faster
3/ you just did a degree recently. If you just do pre-req, you will have 90. My pre-req was about 64 credits.
4/ with a fresh start, you have options to choose more.
5/ did you actually calculate your timing with fresh start and without fresh start (how long to get you over 3.0). ? 3.0 is a filter to a lot of school.

This is my opinion. I would also ask people like @Goro , @gyngyn and @DrMidlife on here. They have a lot of experience and wisdom.
 
Without grade replacement, if I was you, I would move to Texas and do school full time. I did my own post bac coming from 2.6 and accepted this year. Here's some of the reasons for your situation.
1/ no more grade replacement. People say it won't affect much if you do well in your post bac. But I wouldn't take that chance now.
2/ You have good financial situation. You can afford to go school full times and knock out classes faster
3/ you just did a degree recently. If you just do pre-req, you will have 90. My pre-req was about 64 credits.
4/ with a fresh start, you have options to choose more.
5/ did you actually calculate your timing with fresh start and without fresh start (how long to get you over 3.0). ? 3.0 is a filter to a lot of school.

This is my opinion. I would also ask people like @Goro , @gyngyn and @DrMidlife on here. They have a lot of experience and wisdom.

Thank you. Not sure I understand #3. I just completed a degree but it was a masters so the credits would not apply. By doing a fresh start program I would have to complete the full 90 undergrad credits at a minimum. So I'd be looking at one year to establish residency and then assuming I start undergrad right away at least three years to complete 90 credits. So four years before I am able to transition to medical school assuming no gap between undergrad and medical school. Realistically, five years. If I use community college to do the pre-reqs I would spend the next 18 months knocking them out possibly while working. Add another year to take the MCAT, prepare applications, etc. my science GPA could be high because I'm starting with 3.0. I'd have to get all A's with no exceptions. So about three years as a high estimate to complete pre-reqs etc.

I have a friend in his mid-30s who just started. He had a lot of science courses from college but still had to take a few before starting. He used UNE online and completed one course every month and it worked out well for him. I considered that route but have read mixed reviews about online courses.
 
You can take pre-req classes during the year while you are establishing residency...you wouldn't have to wait.
After establishing residency transfer to new college and invoke fresh start...
It's worth looking into and possibly talk with someone at TMDAS about your situation and infer if your masters credits will count towards the 90 credits (don't see why it wouldn't).
 
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You can take pre-req classes during the year while you are establishing residency...you wouldn't have to wait.
After establishing residency transfer to new college and invoke fresh start...
It's worth looking into and possibly talk with someone at TMDAS about your situation and infer if your masters credits will count towards the 90 credits (don't see why it wouldn't).

Thanks for the reply! As I understand the link above re Fresh Start, the moment I enter an academic program under those guidelines I would not be able to use any previous coursework. So the pre-reqs I take while waiting on residency would not apply. I will call someone and verify.
 
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Thanks for the reply! As I understand the link above re Fresh Start, the moment I enter an academic program under those guidelines I would not be able to use any previous coursework. So the pre-reqs I take while waiting on residency would not apply. I will call someone and verify.
Not sure if that is correct (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong) but I think only the grades from 10 years ago won't count. The pre-reqs you take while waiting should count as they are not from that time.
 
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After reading it again I think you are right. I'll see if I can verify. Thanks!
 
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Thanks for the reply! As I understand the link above re Fresh Start, the moment I enter an academic program under those guidelines I would not be able to use any previous coursework. So the pre-reqs I take while waiting on residency would not apply. I will call someone and verify.

It is only the grades 10 years or older from the moment that fresh start is enacted since this is a program to take away those older grades that are possibly holding someone back...
I plan on being a junior in my bachelors degree and completing many pre-reqs by the time I invoke fresh start.
Or possibly graduating with my Bachelors, then enrolling in a new school then taking one class under fresh start, I have seen someone on these forums do it similar to that.
My old credits are 15 credits from a cosmetology program I didn't continue with and didn't drop so I got FX's as the grade :(
 
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After reading it again I think you are right. I'll see if I can verify. Thanks!

Saw this after I posted my reply, but good luck with whatever you choose! Keep us updated :)
 
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That's correct, the grades that are newer than the 10 year cutoff are included. So in my case, I invoked AFS in 2016 and I have grades from my previous school from 2007-2010 that are included.
 
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I think your motives are spot on, but when you interview make sure you stress the compassion side as well as the love for physiology. I'd accumulate some hours that are service oriented so you have solid topics in this realm to talk about at your interviews.

I'm highly nontraditional (32 when I applied, ex-musician, CC science courses). I don't like physics or chemistry either, but pushed hard enough to 4.0 them at my CC. The biology and physiology is where my depth of curiosity lies, and the deep desire to help people who are in pain or suffering. I'm entering my last block of the first year of med school, and it has been profoundly worth every struggle and every cent.

DO programs will look more favorably on the nontraditional, you are correct. There are MD schools which do the same. I'd caution you against setting your sights on only one school. Your chances of getting into med school (which you seem to realize is quite difficult) are better the more school you apply to.

Best wishes to you, I hope you find this path to physician worth the hard work and long path.
 
I think your motives are spot on, but when you interview make sure you stress the compassion side as well as the love for physiology. I'd accumulate some hours that are service oriented so you have solid topics in this realm to talk about at your interviews.

I'm highly nontraditional (32 when I applied, ex-musician, CC science courses). I don't like physics or chemistry either, but pushed hard enough to 4.0 them at my CC. The biology and physiology is where my depth of curiosity lies, and the deep desire to help people who are in pain or suffering. I'm entering my last block of the first year of med school, and it has been profoundly worth every struggle and every cent.

DO programs will look more favorably on the nontraditional, you are correct. There are MD schools which do the same. I'd caution you against setting your sights on only one school. Your chances of getting into med school (which you seem to realize is quite difficult) are better the more school you apply to.

Best wishes to you, I hope you find this path to physician worth the hard work and long path.

Thanks for the reply - your message is helpful and encouraging. If I pursue this option I will probably be applying ten years older than you were (42), but I'm ok with that. One important point that I keep in mind is that I don't ever plan on retiring unless/until I become incapacitated or so old that I physically cannot work. I don't look forward to retiring at 62 and hitting the golf course every day. I'd lose my mind. I want to retire from an income by 65 (or whenever works best at the time) and work in full-time missions or aid, whether in the U.S. or overseas. If I wanted to completely retire from work in my early 60s then I would never consider this field because I would only have about ten years to work. It would make no sense.

Thanks again and great to hear you're doing well in your first year!
 
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Thanks for the reply - your message is helpful and encouraging. If I pursue this option I will probably be applying ten years older than you were (42), but I'm ok with that. One important point that I keep in mind is that I don't ever plan on retiring unless/until I become incapacitated or so old that I physically cannot work. I don't look forward to retiring at 62 and hitting the golf course every day. I'd lose my mind. I want to retire from an income by 65 (or whenever works best at the time) and work in full-time missions or aid, whether in the U.S. or overseas. If I wanted to completely retire from work in my early 60s then I would never consider this field because I would only have about ten years to work. It would make no sense.

Thanks again and great to hear you're doing well in your first year!

I feel the same regarding retirement, which is why I was personally willing to take out a quarter-million in debt for this profession. Thankfully I seem to have healthy genetics, and hope to practice into my 70's, and perhaps teach within and after that time frame. Best of luck to you!!
 
1. Liberty is not popular for very valid reasons. Wait and see their stats on COMLEX passing rates and averages scores.

2. Not liking physics and chemistry is going to be very hard for you, as the majority of your prereqs are in these two areas (gen chem, organic chem, biochem, and physics). And despite what you think, you will actually use them again in medical school.

You may like the idea of physiology, but it's very chemically based. Do you know what kinases are and why they are important? That's chemistry. Do you understand how MRI works on a basic level? That's physics.

3. Your comment about getting "at least a B" in your CC course is troubling to me. If you can't get at least an A in a CC science course, that should be a sign. Your GPA is low so you have to work hard. A B might cut it for someone starting with a higher GPA, but you NEED A's to bring your GPA up to a level that is acceptable to get your foot in the door for a med school interview, even at the lower ranked DO programs.

I think you're being too naive or are unwilling to face some hard truths. I'm not saying this isn't do-able, but I'm saying you need to work a lot harder than you make it seem like you're willing to work.

Also, from a married non-trad, I'll tell you this: don't just have one conversation about this process. Have an ongoing conversation about these choices and these plans. Check in at every step to make sure the other partner is willing to proceed. And ask yourself what is more important to you: finishing med school, finishing med school married, or staying married. This is hard on a marriage and you need constant communication during the entire process.

[Edited for grammar.]
 
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I personally think that you can still succeed without being overly excited about chemistry/physics, or at least general pre-req levels of those. I'll admit that I'm a big chemistry lover and have a degree in it, and my favorite field in chemistry is spectroscopy/physical chemistry related. Also, I was absolutely bored out of my mind with general chemistry and physics (Organic was fun tho). But, as long as you can grasp the concepts and theories, I think you'll be fine. I say this because a lot of the time in the lower levels of chem/physics, the topics aren't put into the context of biology/physiology so it does end up pretty darn bland. I mean I thought acid-base systems and thermodynamics were pretty boring too, until I got to see them in action in enzymatic mechanisms.

The issue then would be is if you either can't succeed in the physical science pre-reqs, or if you get to biochemistry, see the physical sciences in the context of biology/physiology, and still think studying these is total BS. You may not even need to really enjoy all that stuff, as long as you can appreciate the science and why they're important to study, and you're not miserable for having to study all this stuff, I think you'll be okay.
 
Your comment about getting "at least a B" in your CC course is troubling to me.


Thanks for the comment. You're definitely right about that part of your comment -- not sure what I was thinking when I wrote that. I would absolutely consider A's an essential and "must have" to have a chance at getting into med school.

I think you're being too naive or are unwilling to face some hard truths. I'm not saying this isn't do-able, but I'm saying you need to work a lot harder than you make it seem like you're willing to work.
On this, I disagree with you. I'm not being naive and certainly not unwilling to face hard truths. I was clear in my original post that I understand the significant current I'm fighting if I decide to pursue medical school. I'm more than willing to walk away if I think this path will destroy my life or marriage.
 
You can take pre-req classes during the year while you are establishing residency...you wouldn't have to wait.
After establishing residency transfer to new college and invoke fresh start...
It's worth looking into and possibly talk with someone at TMDAS about your situation and infer if your masters credits will count towards the 90 credits (don't see why it wouldn't).

I thought that if you take classes before you establish residency in TX, you will not be considered a resident for tuition/admission purposes. I could be wrong.
 
Yeah, you won't be considered a resident for tuition purposes while establishing residency.

My understanding was that if you don't establish residency before taking any classes in TX, you'll never be considered a resident for tuition or admission purposes. In other words, no reclassification, because it looks like you moved there for school and not to live.


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My understanding was that if you don't establish residency before taking any classes in TX, you'll never be considered a resident for tuition or admission purposes. In other words, no reclassification, because it looks like you moved there for school and not to live.


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I haven't researched that specifically so it's possible, but here is what my school has to say about it:

Reclassification
A person who has enrolled in an institution of higher education prior to domiciling in the state for 12 months and who has been classified as a non-resident upon first enrollment in an institution of higher education is presumed to be a non-resident for the period during which he/she continues as a student.

However, after residing in the state for 12 consecutive months, the student may apply for reclassification as a resident for tuition purposes provided unequivocal proof of establishment of domicile in Texas can be provided. Materials to the determination of the establishment of a domicile in Texas are: business or personal facts or actions unequivocally indicative of a fixed intention to reside permanently in the state (see “Documentation to Support Domicile and Residency.pdf” below). The student must complete a set of Core Residency Questions and provide supporting documentation. Any Core Residency Questions that are submitted without sufficient documentation is subject to denial. In-state reclassification is not granted on a retroactive basis.
 
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I haven't researched that specifically so it's possible, but here is what my school has to say about it:

If did see that a little earlier on their website. Awesome news! If just have to invoke AFS at a different school than the first one I attend when I arrive while establishing domicile. Or, keep taking online non-science courses from schools outside of TX while establishing domicile and then apply for AFS with the right school one and stay there til finished.

Now, if I can just find a doggone school that'll accept me under AFS with a degree. No luck so far...


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I was under the impression that I was terrible at chemistry for years until I started down my premed path. Gen chem and Orgo have been my most enjoyable courses. You are older and wiser than in the past. Go into these course with an open mind and a mindset that these courses are your gateway to medicine.
 
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