Narcotic pain medications used for anti-depression

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Ephesus

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Why has narcotic pain medications not been tested for use in depressed pts?

If a pt has been through all anti-depressants with no luck, why should we not try narcotic pain medications to calm the pt down and to relax themselves?

Psychiatrists rx benzos all the time which is addictive as well. Adderall and Ritalin are Schedule II drugs like most pain killers.

We rarely use medications for what they are officially approved for by the FDA. Why can't more psychiatrists use pain medications to numb pts psychological pains when everything else has been tried and failed?

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Why has narcotic pain medications not been tested for use in depressed pts?

If a pt has been through all anti-depressants with no luck, why should we not try narcotic pain medications to calm the pt down and to relax themselves?

Psychiatrists rx benzos all the time which is addictive as well. Adderall and Ritalin are Schedule II drugs like most pain killers.

We rarely use medications for what they are officially approved for by the FDA. Why can't more psychiatrists use pain medications to numb pts psychological pains when everything else has been tried and failed?

Well, because then you'd have patients with dual diagnosis.
 
I'd think it'd be pretty irresponsible to use pain meds in that fashion. With the already documented issues with pain meds + addiction, I don't think you'd want to increase the number of people using/abusing pain meds. It is bad enough how over-used benzos have become, adding pain meds to the issue would just add gas to the fire.

-t
 
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Just a funny story about using opiates as antidepressants. I had a etoh dependent pt in the ER I was admitting for detox and then referral to inpt rehab.

He was on percocet 10/650 Q4 at home. And xanax QID, and Klonpin TID. I mean REALLY. When I told him we may want to look at some of these medications and we MAY (may, mind you) taper some down he looked at me and promptly put his shoes on and asked for directions to the Exit.


Lol. If SSRI's only worked as good, in that when we try to take them away, the patients are ready to sock you one.
 
Tolerance.

They might feel better for a week before you'd need to escalate the dose for the same effect. And then you get another word: withdrawal.

That's not true at all. Tolerance doesn't occur in a week; just like it doesn't occur in benzos after a week.

To say they will turn into drug addicts is asinine because you don't know.

If you've tried every AD available, nothing is working, why can't a psychiatrist prescribed narcotics to dumb down the pain? If that is shown to help them...

You'd do it if it didn't say controlled substance next to it; but you already rx controlled substances, so what's the big deal?

And withdrawal: what about benzos? You do the same thing: Taper down slowly.
 
>>He was on percocet 10/650 Q4 at home. And xanax QID, and Klonpin TID. I mean REALLY. When I told him we may want to look at some of these medications and we MAY (may, mind you) taper some down he looked at me and promptly put his shoes on and asked for directions to the Exit.<<

Maybe he didn't want to detox. Maybe he was afraid he'd be taken off the stuff that works for him just because it's a scheduled drug?

And tolerance occurs in benzos; you increase the dose. one can say it happens in antidepressants too: sometimes people go through more depressive episodes require more medication and then you regulate accordingly.
 
>>

Maybe he didn't want to detox. Maybe he was afraid he'd be taken off the stuff that works for him just because it's a scheduled drug?

And tolerance occurs in benzos; you increase the dose. one can say it happens in antidepressants too: sometimes people go through more depressive episodes require more medication and then you regulate accordingly.


I laugh at you, so very much. Where did you get these notions?
 
>>I laugh at you, so very much. Where did you get these notions?<<

We can leave out the ad hoc ad hom attacks, okay?

Because he's being admitted for detox, right?

Last time I checked a scheduled drug is an addictive drug.

Detox is to eventually get pts off addictive drugs.

Maybe the pt doesn't want to get off all addictive drugs (for whatever reason).

Also, ever consider meeting a pt for the first time, in a bad state, and the outcome being detox? Then the physician decides he knows everything about the issue and starts saying things he shouldn't. Such as "maybe we should take you off some of these meds?" without knowing why one is on a med.

I agree 2 benzos are excessive. However, maybe he needed it and his psychiatrist thought he needed it. So he was prescribed them and he's working on eventually tapering off of it. Can you imagine the anxiety of being told you need to get off these meds five minutes after meeting some physician you've never met before who really doesn't know the specifics in your case?
 
Opiates have historically been used as antidepressants. In regard to the tolerance issue, there are some small trials out there looking at buprenorphine (which as a partial agonist doesn't drop the tolerance hammer quite as hard) with some indication of promise. Sorry, too sleep deprived to bother looking up the refs.
 
Opiates have historically been used as antidepressants. In regard to the tolerance issue, there are some small trials out there looking at buprenorphine (which as a partial agonist doesn't drop the tolerance hammer quite as hard) with some indication of promise. Sorry, too sleep deprived to bother looking up the refs.

Thank you for taking this seriously.

If it's been used in the past, why has it vanished now? I can understand the decrease with effective SSRIs, but sometimes SSRIs don't work. Then what do you tell the pt, "Oh well I can't give you opiates because you might get addicted a few years from now, even though you'll probably be off opiates in 6-9 months. Deal with the pain and keep talking to your therapist?"

It seems irresponsible that docs won't even *consider* this as a therapy if all others have failed.
 
Psychiatrists rx benzos all the time which is addictive as well. Adderall and Ritalin are Schedule II drugs like most pain killers.

I'm having trouble with the psychiatrists that do so. Benzos long term can worsen depression. On a non-biological level, it sometimes prevents patients from developing their own internal coping mechanisms. IMHO benzos only have justified use in assisting with taking down an agitated patient (along with haldol) & short term use with anxiety disorders (no more than a month, while waiting for the SSRI & CBT to kick in which takes about 1 month).
I also have had several patients who have become addicts thanks to their doctors. One PCP in my area is notoriously known to get his patients addicted.

Stimulants do have some documented (evidence based) benefit with depression. In fact with on rating scales for depression meet enough criteria to act as an antidepressant. The problem though is that its benefits (and I haven't reviewed the literature on this for over a year so I might be off a bit) go down with time (only a few weeks) and aren't considered good long term therapy. They however should be considered as adjunct therapy for treatment resistant depression.

As for narcotics-opioids, I haven't seen any good literature on it that trumps the existing standard of care and I did a pubmed search. So unless you know of some good data, if you do consider this as a form of treatment--you're using your patient as a guinea pig, and on top of that with a known drug of abuse. Add to the problem that several psyche patients already are at high risk for substance abuse or are in populations where there's often a primary gain to obtain such meds, e.g. if they don't use it themselves, they can sell it., then add on top of that--opioids can be used for suicide purposes.

Given the problems I mentioned, if you lack any good data, IMHO you're raising red flags for malpractice.

This is the only study I've seen with the use of suboxone (and close to Doc Samson)
http://opioids.com/buprenorphine/buprefdep.html

Interesting, but small patient population, and only 1 study. Not enough data IMHO to trump the standard of care.

Yeah opioids have been used to tx depression--in the 50s. That standard of care has long been elevated. You'd need some very good reasoning & documentation if you're going to use an opioid for depression. I can't think of one case I had so far where I'd consider it except for a case where the patient already had strong chronic pain, in which case the opioid would be used to tx the pain, and I wouldn't be the doctor handling that. I'd have their PCP do it.

but sometimes SSRIs don't work
Of course. SSRIs as with all antidepressants don't have good levels of efficacy.

If you are concerned with treatment resistant depression, there's several things you can do aside from SSRI use. In addition to psychotherapy, light therapy & excercise (all of which are well documented to work), fish oil 1 g PO Q daily (Omega fatty acid EPA), s-adenosyl methionine have been better documented to assist with treatment of depression and are not harmful, in fact have several health benefits to offer a patient, and can be used with our without antidepressant use. (If you're talking real bad depression, I'd use them with an antidepressant).

Then there's non-holistic pharm treatments that have been known to augment antidepressant tx: lithium & buspirone augmentation.

And with the SSRI, make sure you reached maximum dose with at least 4-6 weeks of therapy before you consider discontinuing it or adding another med. Consider use of a non SSRI.

Finally if several therapies do not work, there's ECT & Deep brain stimulation that can be considered. I'd be more open to that than opioid treatment.

And if the patient does have chronic pain in addition to depression, SNRIs and welbutrin have good documentation showing that they ease symptoms of chronic pain, but have the PCP treat the actual pain itself.
 
>>As for narcotics-opioids, I haven't seen any good literature on it that trumps the existing standard of care and I did a pubmed search. So unless you know of some good data, if you do consider this as a form of treatment--you're using your patient as a guinea pig, and on top of that with a known drug of abuse. Add to the problem that several psyche patients already are at high risk for substance abuse or are in populations where there's often a primary gain to obtain such meds, e.g. if they don't use it themselves, they can sell it., then add on top of that--opioids can be used for suicide purposes.<<

Yes, and this would be my "beef." Why are there no studies on this yet?

Yes, standards of care have changed, but when a pts has tried exercise, talk therapy q1 week, exercise, etc, I see it irresonsible to not look at other options.

You've mentioned some here. I'm not a fan for ECT and wouldn't be willing to do it.

We also have to remember, after a pt is seeing the same psychiatrist week after week for 3 months and *nothing* is working, the pt can get tired and feel helpless, and he may quit coming or worse. That's why I say if we have a pt who is going through a rough time, and an opiod may work, then hey, let's try the opiod. It comes and it goes out. The side effects aren't as troublesome. And he'll most likely be coming back so we can continue to find a good regiment for the pt. Like I said, I'd never use it more that 9 months.
 
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That's why I say if we have a pt who is going through a rough time, and an opiod may work, then hey, let's try the opiod.

If you want to try an opioid (with little data to support its use) after 3 months of treatment resistance.....
When there's several other options that have good documentation and are even considered the standard of care and APA approved....

You are committing some (but not all) of the grounds needed to commit malpractice.

-the patient is in need of care
-Care was provided that was not the standard of care

If your patient became addicted or abused the meds, you would be committing malpractice.

-injury (dependence or abuse)
-harm was caused

Your argument at best to be considered responsible would be to support more research in this area. Nothing else you mentioned would be considered responsible practice.

If you however simply want to try an opioid because you have a hypothesis, you are experimenting on your patient & there are other options available. You would be practicing below the standard of care.

Such practice could be considered unethical.

There are several treatments available for treatment resisitant depression with good data, than to try something with little data to support it.

Question: are you a medical student who has just started a psyche rotation? If I'm wrong I apologize, but I often seen people new to the field wishing their patients could get quicker improvement.

I understand that, but unfortunately this is the reality of our field. I can though say that S-Adenosyl Methionine treatment in some cases yielded benefits as early as 10 days in some studies, it augments existing antidepressant tx and that is an option you didn't bring up outside of SSRI, ECT & opioid use.

Why are there no studies on this yet?
Well, IMHO and I'm not expert, there's no opioid based theory on depression. You could of course do your part to encourage this type of research, but I think with all the hypothetical things that can be investigated, this is not one that will be very popular for obvious reasons.

And he'll most likely be coming back so we can continue to find a good regiment for the pt. Like I said, I'd never use it more that 9 months.


The problem here is the patient may simply be showing up to get high. When you have patient compliance go up when giving a drug of abuse, you may be in effect giving them drugs to increase their compliance.
 
I had lectures from and supervision with 2 psychopharm gurus who would use opiates to treat treatment resistant depression, primarily Tramadol and Buprenorphine. These were considered the "experts in the field" (meaning $1500+ for a one-time consult) and they required the following standards before precribing opiates:
1) Documentation from previous treatment providers of at least 2 SRI trials, at least one TCA trial, a trial of a non-serotonin agent, and one MAOI trial. This documentation needed to include dosages, time course, and assessment of effectiveness in the previous psych MD's progress notes.
2) 2 consecutive negative Utoxes
3) negative neurological evaluation
4) signed authorization to obtain Rx records from all the pharmacies the patient had used in the last 4 years, so that medication history (including refill history) could be obtained
Only after these criteria had been met and fully documented was the patient considered eligible for a trial of opiates. They both felt that this rather obsessive level of documentation and confirmation was required to avoid the appearance of malpractice or DEA-suspicion.

MBK2003
 
You have several options for treatment, like most of these guys are saying. If you exhaust treatment with SSRI medication you can't say the patient has refractory depression. TCAs, MAOI, lithium, depakote, anti-psychotics, it would take years to fully give all these medications a chance to work. THen you also have ECT which is the treatment for severe refractory depression.

If you just want to call it quits after giving SSRIs and go to opiates you are practicing on the fringe.

As to your previous question about detox. In the particular pt he wanted to come in to get help with his alcohol problem. He in no way wanted to discuss his addiction of opiates and benzos (which he admitted to, that he was addicted, btw).

He would have been detoxed for three days, meaning he would have been monitored for signs/symptoms of etoh withdrawal and given Ativan if he did have withdrawal symptoms. Once we were sure he was out of danger of going into DT's we would have referred him to an in/outpatient rehab center.
 
1) Documentation from previous treatment providers of at least 2 SRI trials, at least one TCA trial, a trial of a non-serotonin agent, and one MAOI trial. This documentation needed to include dosages, time course, and assessment of effectiveness in the previous psych MD's progress notes.
2) 2 consecutive negative Utoxes
3) negative neurological evaluation
4) signed authorization to obtain Rx records from all the pharmacies the patient had used in the last 4 years, so that medication history (including refill history) could be obtained

Awesome. I knew much of this had to be done but for someone to delineate so clearly...THANKS!

About my last post, please forgive me if I sound a bit harsh Ephesus.
 
I just came off a month rotation in addictions (i'm a med student, not a resident). I remember the addictions guru there said that Methadone in particular had either SSRI-like or MAO-I activity--he said that as a consequence, giving antidepressants on top of Methadone didn't have a lot of effect, even if the person was depressed beforehand. I haven't done a pubmed search to see if this is the case. Has anyone heard anything like this off the top of their head?

I'm really wishing right about now that I had pressed him for some citations...

Obviously this hypothetical activity of methadone wouldn't justify the gonzo practice being discussed of juicing some run-of-the-mill depressed patient with oxycontin, but would just provide a possible secondary mechanism of action of methadone treatment in chronic opiate addiction.
 
One problem with our field is that there's several junctures where something that is practical in one field that can be applied to another is not being adequately communicated.

Pain for example is affected by depression & vice versa, yet we psychiatrists often don't have much training in treating pain and knowing the dynamics with pain & depression.

Ephesus by the way private messaged me and told me why he was so passionate about this particular area. The guy really cares. I don't want to say much more because a lot of it was personal, but if this guy applies his passion to his practice, I'm sure he'll be an excellent doctor.

And Ephesus, yes, this opioids & depression are an area that may warrant more research. You could be one of the guys that brings some attention to this area.

Just a tidbit, meds that block the breakdown of norepinephrine such as TCAs & SNRIs have been associated with decreased pain. I've had some good anecdotal experiences with giving some of my patients with chronic pain effexor or cymbalta. Welbutrin also causes this effect and has some benefits. There are also some good studies showing their efficacy in this area.
 
Fair enough.

I am always a research first guy. I know there are plenty of off label use going on, but with some like pain meds, I think you'd be on a pretty short leash between trying to 'help' your pt, and subjecting yourself to malpractice.

As an aside, I think it'd be some pretty interesting research.

-t
 
I happen to like the idea of a single dose of IV ketamine while under supervision for about 3 hours at the beginning while you are psychotic, and then bang, you've got antidepressant effect. Sounds like a plan. And there indeed was an apparently legitimate article on that a couple years ago.
 
I am currently on a psych unit and I have the most horrendous drug-seeker that is making my life miserable. Most likely has an underlying anxiety do and has gotten benzos for years. He is also very depressed and is completely refractory to just about everything we throw at him. He came to the unit specifically asking for ECT because it is the only thing that helped his depression in the past. So my attending spent a lot of time on addictions as a resident and is very conservative when it comes to anything with addictive properties, so due to a number of reasons, he was taken off of benzos (not least because the ECT doc will not tolerate benzos being given to his ECT patients). So this patient has since become this massive ball of somatic hysteria and every morning I get to hear about how he is dying, hasn't slept at all for weeks, doesn't have enough energy to walk (after he chases me down to tell me), can't remember anything (WHY CAN'T HE FORGET WHO I AM, THEN), has horrendous nausea beyond the scope of any human understanding, temporary blindness, massive heart attack, horrible pain gripping his entire body, etc. And he then proceeds to give a completely unconvincing physical exam. Zero insight. ZERO. He insists that 2 weeks after his week-long valium taper, he has just now started to have withdrawls from the benzos and he is going to die. DIE. A. HORRIBLE. DEATH. And I could save him if only I would give him benzos. I've started avoiding him on the unit after two weeks of him progressively escalating the whole thing. We have literally done everything we can to relieve anxiety we can think of with nothing but side effects to show for it.
Anyways, so part of me feels a little resentful against my attending for doing this to me...er...him. Yes, this is drug seeking behavior, but isn't drug seeking behavior simply the desperation of trying to find relief from torment? So the case is easy to make to keep people off of addictive substances, but what about in cases where there is genuine anxiety? I guess what I'm asking for is a good reason why I have gone through all this hell the past three weeks. (There is a lot more to the whole story, but it would take too long) Why is it better to get him off the benzos (ultimately, that is what my attending wants) if his chronic anxiety is not going to get better? (maybe I'm just young and inexperienced and don't see that the anxiety could be better for this guy?)
 
Negative connotations that are poorly founded.
 
I am currently on a psych unit and I have the most horrendous drug-seeker that is making my life miserable. Most likely has an underlying anxiety do and has gotten benzos for years. He is also very depressed and is completely refractory to just about everything we throw at him. He came to the unit specifically asking for ECT because it is the only thing that helped his depression in the past. So my attending spent a lot of time on addictions as a resident and is very conservative when it comes to anything with addictive properties, so due to a number of reasons, he was taken off of benzos (not least because the ECT doc will not tolerate benzos being given to his ECT patients). So this patient has since become this massive ball of somatic hysteria and every morning I get to hear about how he is dying, hasn't slept at all for weeks, doesn't have enough energy to walk (after he chases me down to tell me), can't remember anything (WHY CAN'T HE FORGET WHO I AM, THEN), has horrendous nausea beyond the scope of any human understanding, temporary blindness, massive heart attack, horrible pain gripping his entire body, etc. And he then proceeds to give a completely unconvincing physical exam. Zero insight. ZERO. He insists that 2 weeks after his week-long valium taper, he has just now started to have withdrawls from the benzos and he is going to die. DIE. A. HORRIBLE. DEATH. And I could save him if only I would give him benzos. I've started avoiding him on the unit after two weeks of him progressively escalating the whole thing. We have literally done everything we can to relieve anxiety we can think of with nothing but side effects to show for it.
Anyways, so part of me feels a little resentful against my attending for doing this to me...er...him. Yes, this is drug seeking behavior, but isn't drug seeking behavior simply the desperation of trying to find relief from torment? So the case is easy to make to keep people off of addictive substances, but what about in cases where there is genuine anxiety? I guess what I'm asking for is a good reason why I have gone through all this hell the past three weeks. (There is a lot more to the whole story, but it would take too long) Why is it better to get him off the benzos (ultimately, that is what my attending wants) if his chronic anxiety is not going to get better? (maybe I'm just young and inexperienced and don't see that the anxiety could be better for this guy?)

If he's getting ECT, he can't get benzos because they raise the seizure threshold, not because of some hardline stance against medications with addictive potential.
 
Yes, that is the big reason why we are not giving him benzos, but our attending would like to see him off benzos after ECT as well.
 
I have the most horrendous drug-seeker that is making my life miserable. Most likely has an underlying anxiety do and has gotten benzos for years

There's different ways to handle this.

One--slowly taper him off of benzos--use klonopin. In the meantime, put him on SSRIs and perhaps buspirone to calm his anxiety long term. Also add CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy). Hopefully the SSRI, buspirone & CBT will start kicking in within a month, then taper off the klonopin.

I've seen some attendings stop benzos cold turkey. While this may sound cruel, I have seen this prevent several drug seeking patients from manipulating the system to get into inpatient. One of the attendings in my program will give "tough love" to substance abusers and Axis II Cluster B patients, and the recidivism rate at the inpatient unit has significantly dropped as a result. Most of the patients who showed up for the above reasons would make a drama scene to get ativan. He would only allow them to get antihistamines for anxiety unless they had specific sx of benzo or alcohol withdrawal.

Unfortunately, this could be a case where the patient's anxiety was made worse by chronic benzo use. That was a point the same above attending brought up to me. He mentioned how giving benzos often times prevents patients from forming their own cognitive anxiety coping mechanisms, and become dependent on meds instead.

IMHO benzos should only be used short term for sx of severe anxiety, and after about 1 month of use, you stop them, even if the patient wants to continue them.
 
Yes, that is the big reason why we are not giving him benzos, but our attending would like to see him off benzos after ECT as well.


Did you taper him off or just stop the benzo? BTW was it a long or short acting drug?

My attending was telling me a few weeks ago that zoloft, has shown to be effective in (depressed) patients with anxiety.
 
There's different ways to handle this.

One--slowly taper him off of benzos--use klonopin. In the meantime, put him on SSRIs and perhaps buspirone to calm his anxiety long term. Also add CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy). Hopefully the SSRI, buspirone & CBT will start kicking in within a month, then taper off the klonopin.

Ah, Buspar... produced one of my all time favorite quotes from residency. As our psychopharm lecturer said:

"Buspirone has everything you'd want from an anxiolytic, except for efficacy."
 
Most ADs have been shown effective for anxiety tx's...

I will try to post my big post today in response to all that's been said here and see if I can find someone to agree with me. ; -)
 
Alright, well, it seems people here agree the person will become addicted to pain medications if one was to take pain medications. But, what exactly is addiction? (And don't put out the DSM, I can read that too) "Addiction" is a pretty empty term; all it indicates is that the speaker thinks poorly of the act someone else partakes of. For example, my mother has in the past said I was addicted to books, to novels, to programming, to web browsing. Anything I did that wasn't just what she wanted me to be doing, she called addiction.

Is your problem as a health care giver that you feel it's wrong for the pt to be taking pain medications because he can get addicted because he gets addicted or because you caused the addiction? Are you more worried about the pt or you?

I've been taking Dilaudid for several months post-op a knee surger(ies) turned bad. Besides numbing the physical pain, I noticed the emotional pain that was brought upon me by my family to disappear. Yeah, it was only numbed and the neurotransmitters were just receiving information differently, but isn't that the point of all medications? I've been clinically depressed since age 11 and have tried everything - but ECT. I've been in therapy since I was 4 (it started as autism). Tried all therapies but Freudian mythology (I think I'll skip that one as it's better to stick to thinks that are empirically verified so you waste less of your time and everyone elses).

So, after being in mental agony for 9 years, actively trying everything I could and participating fully in CBT, DBT and group therapies being misdiagnosed with everything (started as autism now schizophrenia, paranoid type - I stopped my APs 8 months ago and I have not had any sx; though to be fair, I get paranoid, but paranoid that people that I know will beat me up, not that the CIA is coming after me and I've had that since age 12).

I just stumbled upon this by accident; the way most new research is found. And then funded. I know there's a negative connotation assosiated with pain killers. But what if the negative connotation is poorly founded? People shouldn't see pain killers as a negative just like they shouldn't see atheism as a negative (as many believers do, I'm sure you know well). It's more important to pursue Truth and Good than it is to pander to people's misconceptions and social eccentricities. Other people look down on the act of avoiding medication due to social pressure and discomfort. No matter what you do in life, there will be a group who will look down on you, and another group who will praise you. For example, (Most) Christians look down on atheists, thinking them anywhere from "unfortunate lost souls" to "the army of Satan himself". (Most) atheists look down on Christians for being misguided, ignorant of science, etc.

Yes, a side effect of pain killers is addiction. A side effect of crossing the street is death.

Someone mentioned pain killers were the standard of care in the 50s but the standard of care has changed. Well, it's changed for schizophrenic pts too, you try atypicals first. But if they fail or if the side effects are too troublesome (I'd say a lot of pts don't want them after trying them out), you go to the old school stuff. Old school ADs, could it be pain killers?

I am not asking psychiatrist to start rx'ing Dilaudid left and right, but what I am asking is someone in a position to do so, make a proposal, get some grant money and do a very thorough job at a long-term trial. See what the results are.

It's just my thought. I wish I could do the research, but I don't think a ugrad has the clout to get this done. Or trust me, I would. I tried searching on clinicaltrials.gov and no one was doing it.

So, maybe you still think I'm crazy, but what do you think? Let's have a good discussion on this.
 
I mentioned this to Ephesus via PM, but since he's brought it out into the open....

Hypothetically speaking since I wasn't taking care of Ephesus, nor am I his doctor.....

IF someone is suffering from pain, that is not being properly treated, this could have been the cause of the depression.

So then the pain was properly treated--> and viola, the depression now subsides.

In medically induced depression, you treat the medical problem and the depression is then effectively treated.

In this case, it might not be so much that pain meds can treat depression. Instead this may have been a case of a medical problem causing depression, and it was ineffectively treated because the doctors focused on the depression & not the medical cause causing the depression.
 
I've treated a couple hundred patients by now (even if it was very short term) with severe addictions, and see many, many more now that I moonlight at an addiction center.

I can go into a long winded, psycho-biologically oriented discussion of why this is of limited long term value, I can refer to the above case starting as "autism" and ending with what appears to be the borderline between neurosis and psychosis, I can talk about the classic "depressive personality," and the inherent value of ignoring lack of research and the oftentimes necessary embracing of non-evidenced based treatments, or the concept of addiction-based hospital addiction or other interesting topics, but.....

Addiction leads down a road that, if left unattended for just one moment, can cause a person to spiral into an unfixable web of severe character pathology, hostility, and cause them to exist as a shell of their former selves. Yes, success stories exist, but I would argue that they are rare compared to the refractory cases. Besides costing the healthcare system a fortune in multiple doctor visits from multiple disciplines, it's simply good medicine, in most cases, to allow the prescribing of mood altering (negative in long term) substances with the expressed position of relieving mood in the context of pain. In other words and in my experience, this more often leads down a road of destruction and dependence (not the physiological kind) than a fruitful existence.

Should research be done in this area? Of course. We need additional research in most areas. Just my .02 cents on the topic.
 
I mentioned this to Ephesus via PM, but since he's brought it out into the open....

Hypothetically speaking since I wasn't taking care of Ephesus, nor am I his doctor.....

IF someone is suffering from pain, that is not being properly treated, this could have been the cause of the depression.

So then the pain was properly treated--> and viola, the depression now subsides.

In medically induced depression, you treat the medical problem and the depression is then effectively treated.

In this case, it might not be so much that pain meds can treat depression. Instead this may have been a case of a medical problem causing depression, and it was ineffectively treated because the doctors focused on the depression & not the medical cause causing the depression.

I still want to know how you've decided that the pain was improperly treated? I was on Fentanyl for a long while; only stopped because of the side effects.

And finally, this depression began before any physical activity.
 
Should we continue talking about this? I mean this is all very interesting and I hope someone will conduct research into this area, but we aren't talking about a hypothetical or academic situation here.

It appears that this individual is suffering from chronic pain or/and an axis I condition and is attempting to drive a conversation (at least partially) based on his/her personal illness/treatment.

My point is, at least to me this appears to borderline (no pun intended) on medical advice on the SDN. I may be totally off base here but it doesn't seem like Ephesus is simply trying to discuss a research or medical topic, he/she is bringing this up because it directly pertains to his or her illness.

BTW- I totally disagree with you that addiction is simply "all it indicates is that the speaker thinks poorly of the act someone else partakes of". That phrase is pretty disturbing and I'm surprised no one has commented on this.
 
I'm asking why this hasn't been researched.

I have a new idea for you: why don't you try answering some of these questions instead of making your own and avoiding the topic? That is all you've done since the beginning of this thread.

Oh hey, you started in your last paragraph. Why don't you finish.

I'm not asking for any medical guidance, I thought I was talking with others in the medical field about different ways to tx pts that come; obviously it would only be research since it's not considered the standard of care and lawsuits suck.
 
I seriously think you just have a problem with me. Show me one place I've asked for medical advice. Then show me at least five times I've asked about research in this field.

Start extrapolating data...it won't take you long.

I have doctors who support this theory and are okay with it for the short term (and I'm in agreeance). I'm not asking for any medical advice. I would actually ask someone I have a doctor-patient relationship with and one that isn't a resident who hasn't realized they're wearing no clothes.
 
I seriously think you just have a problem with me. Show me one place I've asked for medical advice. Then show me at least five times I've asked about research in this field.

Start extrapolating data...it won't take you long.

I have doctors who support this theory and are okay with it for the short term (and I'm in agreeance). I'm not asking for any medical advice. I would actually ask someone I have a doctor-patient relationship with and one that isn't a resident who hasn't realized they're wearing no clothes.

Folks, I'll ask that the conversation remain general, such that medical advice isn't being dispersed about a particular case. I think that up to this point, it's been borderline and I'd hate to close a discussion should it fall to the other side of the fence.

The topic though, is valid - so let's continue to discuss without some of the vitriol that's being dispersed that's obviously based on personal frustrations and experiences.
 
Well, Ephesus, no offense but I can't really comment on every specific aspect of your case, and the more I talk (maybe I've already done too much so, but I tried to keep it general & hypothetical), the closer I'm coming to crossing the line of professional boundaries.

The bottom line: there isn't too much data on opioids to treat depression, and the stuff that happened in the past is trumped by better treatments. If you feel there is more need for research, I agree with you.
 
How exactly does one go about doing research in this field then? What are the general steps?

Say I'm just an ugrad with an idea.

Forget my personal experience. Say you've heard these cases and you want to try it out. I know this is how most research gets gets done; a drug comes out on the market and you notice it works on different aspects of life.

I know there's no data; I looked. I think it's because the negative connotation and the fact that the pt can become a dual diagnosis, which no one wants. But, I would rather have a pt in dual diagnosis than a pt who died on my watch.

The only data I have to support my view is that every research study says pain that is effectively treated goes away quicker and you heal faster. That makes this true if you use ADs or XYZ.

Another question: what other fields of psychiatry do you think are lacking research? Complete research like opiates for ADs.
 
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