National Guard MDSSP?

[bongobingo]

Hi could someone please tell me about this? I just got accepted to a DO school and I guess this makes me eligible to apply for military scholarships. So is it correct that if i do 4yrs of mddsp then i owe 8yrs of duty after finishing med school? and unless i am called on active duty, how much am I supposed to drill each year? I.e. do I do any summer training as a medical student? How about when I start my commitment, is it 6weeks per year? Does it mean if I have 6weeks of vacation as an attending in effect I'll have 0 weeks of vacation? If I get this $2k/month stipend, does it mean that I can take out loans to cover all my tuition, books, health and have $2k/month to live on? Also does the guard provide any benefits such as a cheap health insurance?

Other questions I have:
1) can students in the guard do clerkships at military hospitals?
2) if i am currently in ny but my school is in another state am I supposed to sign up in NY and switch to a different state once I am enrolled in school next year? Am I supposed to do any training before starting school?
3) if i join the air guard can I then do a flight surgeon course and fly as a passenger in fighter planes during my drills? Or what exactly would I be doing on drills? How about if I do a pararescue unit? Is there possibility to get some military training, i.e. get parachute training and rappeling out of helicopter and join their unit on some training exercises?

4) if i have lack of depth perception can I still do a flight surgeon course? also i have ear problems. I can definitely pop my ears under the water if i hold my nose and create positive pressure. but i am prone to ear infection. and for example if i go swimming at a beach and then board a regular airplane my ear basically hurts for several hours after landing and also i am more likely to get an ear infection again. does it mean that flying in a helicopter or a fighter plane would definitely bust my ears? I guess if talking about pressure I have freedived to 10ft and it hurt and i never tried to go further but i guess I could. Is flying a helicopter or fighter plane more intensive for your ears than a passenger plane or diving to 10ft?

5) if i decide to join something like navy active duty before my national guard commitment is up as an attending, am I allowed to do this? And would I get an accession bonus?

Thank you.

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[notdeadyet]

So is it correct that if i do 4yrs of mddsp then i owe 8yrs of duty after finishing med school?

Yes

and unless i am called on active duty, how much am I supposed to drill each year?

One weekend each month and two weeks each year. As a medical student, you're eligible for "Flexi-Training" in which you can drill as little as once every three months while in school. Ask your recruiter for that policy memo that describes "Flexi-Training" and keep in mind it's up to your CO.

How about when I start my commitment, is it 6weeks per year? Does it mean if I have 6weeks of vacation as an attending in effect I'll have 0 weeks of vacation?

Not sure where this 6 weeks is coming from. Reserve Corps tends to drill one weekend per month, 2 weeks per year.

If I get this $2k/month stipend, does it mean that I can take out loans to cover all my tuition, books, health and have $2k/month to live on?

Yes, or you can take out enough loans to cover your tuition, books, health AND living expenses. Don't take MDSSP for the money. Probably not worth it.

Also does the guard provide any benefits such as a cheap health insurance?

Search Tricare and Reserve and you can see the plan. It's about $200/month for a family. How good a plan it is is largely dependent on how many doctors accept it near where you live. Check with your school, they may offer better healthcare for less.

 

[notdeadyet]

1) can students in the guard do clerkships at military hospitals?

Yes, but you're in line behind all active and HPSP folks. In other words, you have a shot at the small programs in the middle of nowhere, but forget about Tripler.

2) if i am currently in ny but my school is in another state am I supposed to sign up in NY and switch to a different state once I am enrolled in school next year? Am I supposed to do any training before starting school?

If you have an acceptance to a school you know you're going to attend, you would apply for the National Guard in the state of your school.

3) if i join the air guard can I then do a flight surgeon course and fly as a passenger in fighter planes during my drills?

A flight surgeon course is different from being a flight surgeon. If you finish med school and internship and get assigned as a flight surgeon, your job will be to take care of the health needs of pilots (get ready for doing lots of flight physicals).

How much you can actually fly will depend on what unit you're assigned to. Not sure how it works in the Air Guard, but flight surgeons tend to spend drill time doing their job, not flying around in fighter planes.

Or what exactly would I be doing on drills?

Ask your recruiter what medical students do during drill their four years of med school. Ask to speak to a doctor in your state to find out what their job is like.

How about if I do a pararescue unit? Is there possibility to get some military training, i.e. get parachute training and rappeling out of helicopter and join their unit on some training exercises?

If you take MDSSP, plan on being a doctor. Any training you get invited to tag along with is a good thing, but at the end of the day, you're going to be a doctor and expected to do work as one. The stuff you're talking about is there for those who enlist.

4) if i have lack of depth perception can I still do a flight surgeon course? also i have ear problems.

You need to pass a flight physical in order to attend the flight surgeon course. Ask your recruiter to introduce you to a flight surgeon in your state. You can ask about qualifications (or Google) and you can ask them about their job. It'll be illuminating. And don't be bashful, it's a recruiter's job.

Also, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, if your ears are sensitive to the point that they hurt from flying in a commercial aircraft, flying in fighters is probably not in the cards...

5) if i decide to join something like navy active duty before my national guard commitment is up as an attending, am I allowed to do this? And would I get an accession bonus?

No and no. When you join the Guard, you sign up for a commitment of a number of years to serve them. 8 in this case. Plan on finishing out that commitment. The Army National Guard is not going to take a doctor they gave $100K to and release them to the Navy just at the point they start becoming moderately useful.

 

[bongobingo]

Thank you! I looked up flight physicals and it appears that both air force and the navy (for FS applicants) require depth perception. That means I cannot do it? I really wanted to fly in a fighter plane...

I got more questions:
1) I understand that primary care physicians do physicals for everybody in the unit. What if you are an anesthesiologist, do you still basically do physicals all day in the army ng? I also read that strap in ny is only available for primary care and ER.

2) I interviewed at a school and they said that any scholarship that goes through the school is subtracted from my financial aid and therefore hpsp cannot get any loans. but if my rich uncle gives me some cash i can still take out as much. what about mdssp? Would i be able to take out cost of living loans on top of mdssp or it goes through the school?

3) I read on this forum that reservists or guardsmen sometimes rotate at the hospital in germany? Does it mean that if you want you can request to work at some point as an anesthesiologist in germany and it will count as your guard duty training?

 

[notdeadyet]

What if you are an anesthesiologist, do you still basically do physicals all day in the army ng?

The National Guard (at least in my state) does not have slots for anesthesiologists. You would be transfered to the Army Reserve if you entered that specialty.

I also read that strap in ny is only available for primary care and ER.

I don't live in NY so I can't help you there. STRAP is only available for specialty the Guard has an interest in, though. It's usually much wider than just PCPs and EM though.

I interviewed at a school and they said that any scholarship that goes through the school is subtracted from my financial aid and therefore hpsp cannot get any loans. but if my rich uncle gives me some cash i can still take out as much. what about mdssp? Would i be able to take out cost of living loans on top of mdssp or it goes through the school?

That's a question for your financial aid folks. But MDSSP is not a scholarship, it's just a stipend. It would count as income, but income doesn't go against how much you can take out in med school loans.

But again, your medical school should still be offering cost of living loans. You don't need MDSSP or programs like it to live on.

I read on this forum that reservists or guardsmen sometimes rotate at the hospital in germany?

I doubt that. You might be able to on ADT orders for UHUHS or maybe even HPSP, but not for the Reserve Corps.

Does it mean that if you want you can request to work at some point as an anesthesiologist in germany and it will count as your guard duty training?

Maybe, but don't count on it.

 

[bongobingo]

Thank you! So the 2000/month you get from mdssp is different from the 2000/month you get from hpsp? That means i can get both col loans and 2000 so I could make about $45k/yr while in school? Also what would an anesthesiologist do in the army reserve (unless he is deployed and actually works at a hospital)? And what do primary care physicians do in guard/reserve units other than the regular physicals and paperwork/waivers? What do they do during annual training?
Also if a guard doctor volunteers or is deployed to afganistan or somewhere else abroad, does he get all the bonuses that an active duty physician of his rank would be getting? i.e. if he does 3months, he gets 1/4 of the annual bonus? and it's tax free if he is in a war zone?

 

[chenquistador]

I go to a DO school and I am currently in the National Guard. I commissioned through ROTC so I have a contract to fulfill, but I do not plan on taking any incentives until Residency 2, where the HPLRP seems more worth it for me. You will be assigned to a medical unit and do what that unit normally does. This means you will likely be working in a hospital and work with physicians/medical students. I am in a medical service unit and drill with a platoon of medics(which is different from hospital work). This is a potential possibility, but less likely if you are taking a direct commission. Airborne and Air Assault schools are still available to you, but keep in mind that your unit must have slots for it and you must have time. I wanted to go to these schools, but once medical school began there was no tiem in the foreseeable future to fit them in.

Also, you will have to go to Officer Basic Course. It is shortened from the traditional 9 weeks to 3 weeks if you are a medical student.

And just to clarify, you will not be "Making" 45k a year. Everything you take out in loans you have to pay back. For every $16000(approx per semester depending on school) you take out you will be accruing monthly interest of ~90$ plus compounded interest. One year of loans could put you in tremendous debt. I would advise some solid financial planning before making large withdrawals of money for leisurely spending.

Also look into STRAP and HPLRP, and Retainment bonuses and consider how they can help you plan your path. Every option combination has different costs and benefits. The good thing about the Guard is that there are lots of options. You just have to sit down and figure out what works best for you.

Good luck

 

[notdeadyet]

You will be assigned to a medical unit and do what that unit normally does. This means you will likely be working in a hospital and work with physicians/medical students. I am in a medical service unit and drill with a platoon of medics(which is different from hospital work). This is a potential possibility, but less likely if you are taking a direct commission.

The National Guard doesn't have hospitals. You may be thinking of the Reserve, which runs CSH's and whatnot, but the NG does not.

OP- In the Guard, to fulfill a physician slot, you'll likely be with a line unit (infantry, etc.) or a medical unit (like an Area Support Medical Company) in which you're one of a handful of docs with a company of medics (similar to what chenquistador is describing).

Most docs in the Guard are DC. I've met a few via ROTC. It doesn't seem to have any determination in where you're assigned.

When activated, you can either deploy with your unit or as an "augmentee" in which you're a doc assigned to a CSH, a FOB, or a slot normally filled by any other doc (from any branch of service).

The rest of chenquistador's info is solid.

 

[acesup123]

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[chenquistador]

The National Guard doesn't have hospitals. You may be thinking of the Reserve, which runs CSH's and whatnot, but the NG does not.

Good catch notdeadyet. They are not hospitals but rather armories and clinics where National Guard doctors conduct general physical exams.

 

[hchang9]

Anyone in the mdssp program who is now in residency. I was just wondering how the training commitment 1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year affected your residency scheduling. Do any residency directors give you a hard time about your commitment

I'm curious about this as well.

 

[notdeadyet]

Anyone in the mdssp program who is now in residency.

I'm currently in residency. I wasn't MDSSP (I was ASR), but it doesn't much matter. After med school ends, we all have the same jobs.

I was just wondering how the training commitment 1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year affected your residency scheduling.

It depends on your residency and program, I'd imagine.

I'm doing internship. For mine, half of my rotations this year are on-service (my specialty) and half are off-service. For the on-service months, we're M-F with weekend call. On the weekends I'm scheduled for call that conflict with drill, I switch with another intern. For off-service rotations, many of which have 4 days off per month, I contact the program admin 4-6 months ahead of time and notify them of my Guard weekend and ask if they can schedule around it. It's about 50/50 if it's accommodated. For the ones in which it's not accommodated, I am usually given one of the two days off and my unit and CO are okay with this. For the ones in which I'm not accommodated at all, I just notify my CO. As long as it only happens a couple of times a year, I'm sure it's fine.

For the two week AT, I am using two weeks of vacation time (I get 4 weeks, which is typical of many programs. With flexi-training, you can get away with attending AT only every other year if you need to.

Do any residency directors give you a hard time about your commitment

I don't involve my residency director much. There's just not a need to. I suppose I could "demand" those weekends off and AT off for drill. It's federal law that we're allowed to go.

The problem I have with doing it that way is two-fold:
1. When special dispensation (rather than regular scheuluing is made for my going to drill, it means that someone else will need to cover my shifts. I don't want to put my fellow over-worked interns through this if I don't need to.
2. If I keep crying "it's the law" to make sure I get special treatment each weekend and year, it makes a bad impression on the PD, faculty, and staff. That will make it that much harder on future Guardsmen, Reservists, FAPers, and veterans. I don't want that.

 

[Dotsero]

I'm currently in residency. I wasn't MDSSP (I was ASR), but it doesn't much matter. After med school ends, we all have the same jobs.

It depends on your residency and program, I'd imagine.

I'm doing internship. For mine, half of my rotations this year are on-service (my specialty) and half are off-service. For the on-service months, we're M-F with weekend call. On the weekends I'm scheduled for call that conflict with drill, I switch with another intern. For off-service rotations, many of which have 4 days off per month, I contact the program admin 4-6 months ahead of time and notify them of my Guard weekend and ask if they can schedule around it. It's about 50/50 if it's accommodated. For the ones in which it's not accommodated, I am usually given one of the two days off and my unit and CO are okay with this. For the ones in which I'm not accommodated at all, I just notify my CO. As long as it only happens a couple of times a year, I'm sure it's fine.

For the two week AT, I am using two weeks of vacation time (I get 4 weeks, which is typical of many programs. With flexi-training, you can get away with attending AT only every other year if you need to.

I don't involve my residency director much. There's just not a need to. I suppose I could "demand" those weekends off and AT off for drill. It's federal law that we're allowed to go.

The problem I have with doing it that way is two-fold:
1. When special dispensation (rather than regular scheuluing is made for my going to drill, it means that someone else will need to cover my shifts. I don't want to put my fellow over-worked interns through this if I don't need to.
2. If I keep crying "it's the law" to make sure I get special treatment each weekend and year, it makes a bad impression on the PD, faculty, and staff. That will make it that much harder on future Guardsmen, Reservists, FAPers, and veterans. I don't want that.

If this is the way it works, it really sounds like a pain in the ass. Switching shifts, trying to get weekends that you HAVE to work approved by your CO. This stands in stark contrast to the way recruiters paint "flexi-training"; you will not have to drill when you have to work, they'll count your residency hours as drill time. No problems. Yeah right. Sounds like you're having to do alot of juggling to keep everyone happy. I mean residency is tough enough without this hassle.

 

[notdeadyet]

If this is the way it works, it really sounds like a pain in the ass.

Meh, it's a little extra work. No biggie. Parents and such have to do pretty much the same thing.

Switching shifts, trying to get weekends that you HAVE to work approved by your CO.

Yes. At the end of the day, you're in the Army. But I think you might be making mountains out of molehills. When I have a training or work schedule that does not allow me to participate in drill, I tell my CO via email. I haven't gotten any pushback.

To be honest, if you see this as a major inconvenience and something that will trouble you and cause teeth-grinding, I'd avoid taking MDSSP or joining the Army. At the end of the day, the military involves lots of bureaucracy and if your threshold is low, you'll find all the requirements, paperwork and scheduling pretty painful.

This stands in stark contrast to the way recruiters paint "flexi-training"; you will not have to drill when you have to work, they'll count your residency hours as drill time.

I say this until I'm pretty blue in the face, but get things in writing. Just as you would when you're buying a car or somesuch. For Flexi-Training, unless policy has changed, you are required to attend drill a minimum of once every quarter and an AT of up to two weeks at least once every two years. You can do Equivalent Training, which can be conferences, training, etc. to substitute for drill, but "Training must not be considered part of the Clinical Personnel's routine residency training program or internship requirement for which he or she receives personal compensation." In other words, working your shift at the hospital technically doesn't cut it. You also must be in uniform when you do it.

Flexi-Training isn't some black box. Ask your recruiter for the 04 JAN 2010 memo (or a later one, if there is one) with the subject "Flexible Training for the Army National Guard Clinical Officers." It lays out everything neatly. And it's a great deal, probably the best one I've ever seen for flexible scheduling for anyone in the Army.

A couple things to consider, as well, when one approaches taking MDSSP.

1. Flexi-Training is up to your CO's discretion. In other words, do not expect to waive a policy memo and say you ain't coming into drill on a given weekend. The National Guard is very specific about one weekend/per month of duty, so you need to make every effort to attend that. If you can't, have a good reason and use it sparingly.

2. With MDSSP (or ASR) you take money during medical school and don't do much. Once in residency, you are a Captain and assigned to a unit where you will likely serve for several years. Once you have your medical license after intern year, there are clinical responsibilities you can assume. In other words, you have a role with your unit.

How much of an impact you can have with that role and how much you can actually serve your country is going to be drastically limited if you never show up. If you're absent from drill as many months as you're there, you're never really going to make an impact or provide a service. Many folks on MDSSP game it so that they take it only during the last two years of medical school so that they can finish up their drill duties during residency and be non-deployable. For these folks especially, drill duties during residency is the only service they'll provide for the military. It should be taken seriously.

I don't mean to sound like I'm on a soapbox, but if anyone is looking to take the money, do the bare minimum for their country and Army and then get out of dodge, please don't take MDSSP. You're actually not only helping your unit, you'll likely be hindering it. Not saying this to you, Dotsero, just putting this out there to folks considering MDSSP.

It's pretty much gospel on SDN Milmed forums: Join because you want to serve. Do not join for the money.

No problems. Yeah right. Sounds like you're having to do alot of juggling to keep everyone happy.

If sending out a dozen emails every year is "alot of juggling," then yes, I guess it is. If you see sending out a dozen emails and coordinating your schedules as a hardship, DO NOT JOIN. It's really not worth the hassle to you or your unit. You'll be a doctor soon enough and can pay back the money you take out in loans.

I mean residency is tough enough without this hassle.

Meh, we all have our thresholds. Being a Guardsman or Reservist requires some time and commitment. If you it sounds like hardship, DO NOT TAKE MDSSP.

Seriously. There is nothing worse for a bunch of enlisted soldiers in a unit looking at a year in Afghanistan than hearing a doctor who comes to drill once every three months b!tch about what an inconvenience it is. Trust me, this happens, and it's not good for the unit, the Army or (presumably) the doctor.

 

[Dotsero]

Thanks for your reply Notdeadyet. My main drive into looking at the NG is to serve. That's number one. And I am with you in that you should never join for the money.

I guess the thing that is concerning to me is the ability of doing both the Guard and residency, and doing both well, without pissing off either my PD or my CO (or my fellow residents and soldiers).

Anyone else care to share how this has worked out for them?

 

[notdeadyet]

Thanks for your reply Notdeadyet. My main drive into looking at the NG is to serve. That's number one. And I am with you in that you should never join for the money.

Good stuff. Hope I didn't sound too negative. I just think the military is a miserable place to be if your heart's not in it, you know?

I guess the thing that is concerning to me is the ability of doing both the Guard and residency, and doing both well, without pissing off either my PD or my CO (or my fellow residents and soldiers).

Good concern to have. I'll be very interested to hear the other input you get from folks. For me personally, residency comes first, which is why I try to arrange weekends off ahead of time and fenangle this and that with the program, rather than flying the "you must give me time off for Guard duty" flag. Which is your legal right. Just sounds like a bad idea, you know?

I think you'll find folks experience is going to be different by residency. Medicine/surgery rotations are the toughest rotations to arrange for full weekends off.

I think you'll also find that it differs a whole lot by state. I know from ASR days that some states take their Guard a lot more seriously than others. In California, they treat it very seriously. In some states, it's still a lot more "weekend warrior" culture and not reporting for duty is probably taken lighter.

 

[Dotsero]

Good stuff. Hope I didn't sound too negative. I just think the military is a miserable place to be if your heart's not in it, you know?

Good concern to have. I'll be very interested to hear the other input you get from folks. For me personally, residency comes first, which is why I try to arrange weekends off ahead of time and fenangle this and that with the program, rather than flying the "you must give me time off for Guard duty" flag. Which is your legal right. Just sounds like a bad idea, you know?

I think you'll find folks experience is going to be different by residency. Medicine/surgery rotations are the toughest rotations to arrange for full weekends off.

I think you'll also find that it differs a whole lot by state. I know from ASR days that some states take their Guard a lot more seriously than others. In California, they treat it very seriously. In some states, it's still a lot more "weekend warrior" culture and not reporting for duty is probably taken lighter.

If you do MDSSP, what happens if you match into a residency in another state? How does this transfer occur and are there a bunch of hoops you need to jump through?

 

[Dotsero]

If you do MDSSP, what happens if you match into a residency in another state? How does this transfer occur and are there a bunch of hoops you need to jump through?

Anyone have any experience with an interstate ANG transfer? Difficult? Easy?

 

[notdeadyet]

I've not done it but have seen folks do it for the sake of residency. It takes a couple months to arrange. The level of painlessness is dependent on how on the ball your command is.

I've never heard of it being refused for physicians. As long as you're flexible as to what kind of slot you can fill, you'll likely find a home in your new state. Failing that, they can work on switching you to the Reserve if they absolutely have to (though they don't like doing this).

 

[Mr. Freeze]

Depending on the state and your command you may not need to transfer. Supposedly if you are going to be a resident of a different state for more than 2 years you need to do an Interstate Transfer. When I left my home state, they offered to let me drill in my new state and just send them what amounts to report cards, and not leave my home state NG. This was knowing that I was going to be gone for at least 6 years.

 

[hchang9]

Do you know if it's possible for a transfer into the Air National Guard if there are no Army National Guard units around?

 

[notdeadyet]

If you really are nowhere near any Army National Guard armories (which is more remote than you might expect), they would likely transfer you to the Army Reserve.

Transferring to the Air National Guard is extremely unlikely. Army National Guard and Army Reserve are both Department of Army. Air National Guard is Air Force.

 

[Tirekicker]

Does anyone know if the Air National Guard has its version of MDSSP. I've been in the Air Guard since Sep 2001 and I would like to stay in my unit.

 

[notdeadyet]

Does anyone know if the Air National Guard has its version of MDSSP. I've been in the Air Guard since Sep 2001 and I would like to stay in my unit.

They didn't as of a few years ago. It's a big gripe that there is a HUGE discrepancy between Air and Army National Guard benefits.

There was a pretty good FAQ sheet here, though it's now a few years old.

And I went to the national Air National Guard website and they had a FAQ section that talked about benefits for doctors-to-be and this is what they came out with:

Yes! Currently there are several programs, including: Student Loan Repayment Program, which pays up to $50,000; our Stipend Program, which currently pays $1,235 per month; and the Montgomery G.I. Bill Program, which currently pays $333 per month for any additional college courses that you might take. Also, you may earn Continuing Medical Education (CME) for some training courses offered in the Air National Guard. To find out if your specialty is bonus eligible, please contact a member of our Health Professions Recruiting Team.

Compare these benefits to the Army National Guard's. Student loan repayment is $50K for Air National Guard (vs. Army National Guard $250K) and Resident Stipend Program- is $1,235/mo in ANG (vs. $2k/mo in ARNG).

Not to plug for my home team, but I'd be a bad ASR if I didn't. You can still drill with your unit and earn drill pay and could probably get classed as a non-deployable asset. The ARNG does this.

 

[Tirekicker]

Thanks for the response. I guess the ANG doesn't have to work as hard to get people. The ARNG SLRP sure is tempting.

 

[notdeadyet]

The ARNG is three or four times the size of the ANG, with higher combat exposure. Probably a lot fewer slots for doctors on the ANG side. You almost never see them at physician events.

 

[notdeadyet]

With 11 years, I can see no wanting to make the switch. It'd be rough picking up a whole different culture.

 

[Ransomed30]

Nothing is free. Military MDSSP and STRAP are stipends. If you accept these you owe time. I have 10 years service in and I comission this December. I am currently in the medical school application process now. The military has been good to me and been very flexible in allowing to achieve my dreams. Yes, drill is one weekend a month, two weeks in the summer for the National Guard. There is a physical fitness test in the fall. There is the possibility of deployment. There are alot of options besides the military but if your heart's desire is to serve this country than the military would not be a bad option. For Reserve or National Guard you do not to do the 24/7 grind of active military. I served 5 years active. There's quite a difference and more of a relaxed atmosphere in the reserve components. Both are important and functional however if you don't want to do have to do it 24/7, still make a good living in the civilian sector while simaltaneously serving your country than the reserve compone tis good. If you have nothing tying you down and would like to travel, have a decent salary, be practically debt free,and good health and dental benefits, the active duty is not necessarily a bad option. Be careful of what recruiters say. Often, they will attempt to wine and dine you and make you think it's a beautiful, perfect environment which is not the case. Be practical, research on those programs(ASR, MDSSP, STRAP, HPSP, etc) in regards to military. If you desire to remain civilian than take the loans, graduate from medical school, and live modestly for 5-10 years paying off the loands before getting that nice mansion home. It's all in logical perspective.

 

[MRSAful Fate]

After doing a bunch or research on here as well as scouring the ARNG website I came to an understanding that the MDSSP program would be a straight 2:1 repayment program - so if I take it for 2.5 years I would owe them 5 years post residency. But I was just told that it would be an 8 year commitment PLUS the 2:1 repayment - so if I took it for 2.5 years I would owe 13 years post residency. This seems to contradict what I have read previously, and the conversation I just had was very discouraging about the MDSSP. I was hoping someone in the know might be able to comment about the accuracy of that information. I was also told that the 75K bonus over 3 years program might be a good option, but IIRC that is just for physicians, not med students...

 

[notdeadyet]

After doing a bunch or research on here as well as scouring the ARNG website I came to an understanding that the MDSSP program would be a straight 2:1 repayment program - so if I take it for 2.5 years I would owe them 5 years post residency.

This is correct.

But I was just told that it would be an 8 year commitment PLUS the 2:1 repayment - so if I took it for 2.5 years I would owe 13 years post residency.

This is incorrect.

Everyone who joins takes an 8 year military service obligation. From the time you swear in, you are in the military for 8 years in one form or another. With the example you used in the first paragraph, the 8 year MSO is moot, because you would have sworn in 1/2 way through your second year of medical school. If you did a 3 year residency, you would have been in the Guard for 5-1/2 years before even starting your 5 years of payback which starts post-residency. Your 8 year MSO is not additive. Make sense?

Incidentally, while I love the Guard, MDSSP is not a good deal unless you want to join the Guard anyway. You get 2-1/2 years of benefits for what amounts to 10-1/2 years of service time if you do what you propose. You'd be WAY better off doing the same deal with STRAP, in which you would take it the last 2-1/2 years of residency and end up serving 7-1/2 years. It's delayed gratification.

And yes, the Guard (and Reserve) have MUCH better deals for joining as physicians, since that's when you can really serve a roll. Right now the Guard pays off $40K/year in student loans for any board eligible doc for up to $250K.

 

[Army Recruiter]

This is correct.

This is incorrect.

Everyone who joins takes an 8 year military service obligation. From the time you swear in, you are in the military for 8 years in one form or another. With the example you used in the first paragraph, the 8 year MSO is moot, because you would have sworn in 1/2 way through your second year of medical school. If you did a 3 year residency, you would have been in the Guard for 5-1/2 years before even starting your 5 years of payback which starts post-residency. Your 8 year MSO is not additive. Make sense?

Incidentally, while I love the Guard, MDSSP is not a good deal unless you want to join the Guard anyway. You get 2-1/2 years of benefits for what amounts to 10-1/2 years of service time if you do what you propose. You'd be WAY better off doing the same deal with STRAP, in which you would take it the last 2-1/2 years of residency and end up serving 7-1/2 years. It's delayed gratification.

And yes, the Guard (and Reserve) have MUCH better deals for joining as physicians, since that's when you can really serve a roll. Right now the Guard pays off $40K/year in student loans for any board eligible doc for up to $250K.

Notdeadyet is correct, good information. The reserve also offers a onetime $75,000 accession bonus in addition to HPLRP.
8 years is whats called an MSO or mandatory service obligation, individual SSO or Statutory service obligation is what you owe, or payback time.

So if your SSO is less than the MSO, the remainder can be served IRR or In-active Ready Reserve. More or less you are on a list that if only if absolutely needed you could be called back.

 

[henge]

Many folks on MDSSP game it so that they take it only during the last two years of medical school so that they can finish up their drill duties during residency and be non-deployable. For these folks especially, drill duties during residency is the only service they'll provide for the military.

Not that I'd be in it to game the system, but is the above strategy possible? The ARNG site says:

'MDSSP is an incentive-based program that offers medical and dental students a monthly stipend of at least $2,088. In return, each participant will incur a one-year service obligation for every six months (or part thereof) for which they receive the stipend.

Your obligation begins immediately following completion of dental school (or completion of your residency) unless you enter into STRAP for residency in an eligible specialty—in which case:

1. Your MDSSP obligation starts at the beginning of residency.
2. Your MDSSP obligation is reduced by one year for each year (or part thereof) for which the STRAP stipend was provided.'
http://www.nationalguard.com/careers/medical-professional-officer/healthcare-bonuses-and-loans
See also http://scarngmedical.com/images/IncentivePrograms.pdf

Doesn't that mean that someone who went MDSSP in M3-M4 and did not do STRAP would have to serve for 4 years after residency?

If that is the new policy, then it seems the gaming strategy would still mandate 4 years of post-residency service, though it would allow someone to have no remaining MSO obligation after the 4 years of post-residency service since, I believe, the 8 year MSO clock would run from M3/M4 thru residency and thru 4 years of service. Is that reading of the MSO correct? If so, what is the MDSSP person's status during residency? Are they required to drill/train during residency, allowed but not required to drill/train during residency, in IRR (but with some exemption from deployment) or is there a gap between M4 and completion of residency?

Also, the NG site's discussion of MDSSP (unlike its discussion of STRAP) does not expressly limit the availability of MDSSP to the specialties listed on the site, and, to muddle things further, lists 'physician' as one of the specialties it is seeking. Does that mean someone looking to do, say, peds (i.e., a not separately listed specialty) would be a viable candidate for MDSSP? The Army Reserve seems to want a non-binding commitment to apply to a listed specialty. See http://www.recruitersneverlie.com/u...d-boarding-process-for-medicaldental-student/

If you do MDSSP, expecting to do, say, FP, but end up doing peds what happens after residency? Do you serve as a pediatrician in the ARNG, get transferred to the Reserves, active Army, serve in IRR (without deployment exemptions), serve in the ARNG as a non-physican or something else? Similarly, what if the list changes between the time you enroll in MDSSP and the time you complete your residency, so that your residency is no longer on the list (i.e., you signed up for MDSSP and residency in meds when meds was on the list, but the ARNG removes meds from the list [thereby making the ARNG list more consistent with the Army Reserves' list, which does not list meds] beginning in your second year of residency)?

 

[DeadCactus]

The payback criteria were recently changed to a post-residency payback precisely to avoid what notdeadyet was talking about...

 

[henge]

The payback criteria were recently changed to a post-residency payback precisely to avoid what notdeadyet was talking about...

Thanks. Any idea what your status is during residency if you do MDSSP but not STRAP?

 

[lepetit]

The payback criteria were recently changed to a post-residency payback precisely to avoid what notdeadyet was talking about...

just had a quick question - an amedd recruiter told me that mdssp payback would start post-GRADUATION, and not post-residency. do you know where i could get the fine print on this so i can check it out myself?

thanks!

 

[DeadCactus]

Your status during residency would be as a drilling member of the Guard serving up to 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks a year though there is flexibility for them to allow you to do 1 weekend every other month and 2 weeks every other year.

I'll try to find the document but just tell your recruiter you'd like to see this fiscal year's memo on implementation of AMEDD officer incentives. If they don't know the right information they can at least be the ones to do the grunt work of hunting it down...

 

[henge]

just had a quick question - an amedd recruiter told me that mdssp payback would start post-GRADUATION, and not post-residency. do you know where i could get the fine print on this so i can check it out myself?

thanks!

See Page 10, par 9c
http://scarngmedical.com/images/IncentivePrograms.pdf

And thanks DeadCactus

 

[lepetit]

See Page 10, par 9c
http://scarngmedical.com/images/IncentivePrograms.pdf

And thanks DeadCactus

roger, thanks for the info

so if my understanding is correct, a student has several options. assuming a student who joined the guard at the outset of medical school (so four years of service during med school) takes two years of mdssp (therefore four years of additional payback) and has no intent of HPLRP:
1. the four years will start immediately with graduation if the student takes STRAP. so...pgy-1 through pgy-4 will be served paying both the mdssp obligation AND the mso contract of remaining four years. so starting with pgy-5, the strap obligation will also have to be paid back in a 1:1 status. let's say i took one year of strap during pgy-1, for instance - will i payback my pgy-5 year for the strap?
2. as a further edit to the above question - there was some language in the document sent out by henge that i was unsure of, specifically section 10 b (1). what if the residency is a long one, say surgical subspecialty (let's say 7 years of residency for the longest one that i know). for the aforementioned case, pgy-1 through pgy-4 will be served paying back both MSO and mdssp, then pgy-5 can be served paying back STRAP? this is all so confusing hahah, would appreciate any insight into this.
3. what is the whole deal with critically short wartime specialty, etc? what if your residency is NOT on the list, does that change the payback obligation, when it starts, etc?
4. if the student does NOT take STRAP, then the mdssp payback will start post-residency.

 

[lepetit]

Not that I'd be in it to game the system, but is the above strategy possible? The ARNG site says:

'MDSSP is an incentive-based program that offers medical and dental students a monthly stipend of at least $2,088. In return, each participant will incur a one-year service obligation for every six months (or part thereof) for which they receive the stipend.

Your obligation begins immediately following completion of dental school (or completion of your residency) unless you enter into STRAP for residency in an eligible specialty—in which case:

1. Your MDSSP obligation starts at the beginning of residency.
2. Your MDSSP obligation is reduced by one year for each year (or part thereof) for which the STRAP stipend was provided.'
http://www.nationalguard.com/careers/medical-professional-officer/healthcare-bonuses-and-loans
See also http://scarngmedical.com/images/IncentivePrograms.pdf

Doesn't that mean that someone who went MDSSP in M3-M4 and did not do STRAP would have to serve for 4 years after residency?

If that is the new policy, then it seems the gaming strategy would still mandate 4 years of post-residency service, though it would allow someone to have no remaining MSO obligation after the 4 years of post-residency service since, I believe, the 8 year MSO clock would run from M3/M4 thru residency and thru 4 years of service. Is that reading of the MSO correct? If so, what is the MDSSP person's status during residency? Are they required to drill/train during residency, allowed but not required to drill/train during residency, in IRR (but with some exemption from deployment) or is there a gap between M4 and completion of residency?

Also, the NG site's discussion of MDSSP (unlike its discussion of STRAP) does not expressly limit the availability of MDSSP to the specialties listed on the site, and, to muddle things further, lists 'physician' as one of the specialties it is seeking. Does that mean someone looking to do, say, peds (i.e., a not separately listed specialty) would be a viable candidate for MDSSP? The Army Reserve seems to want a non-binding commitment to apply to a listed specialty. See http://www.recruitersneverlie.com/u...d-boarding-process-for-medicaldental-student/

If you do MDSSP, expecting to do, say, FP, but end up doing peds what happens after residency? Do you serve as a pediatrician in the ARNG, get transferred to the Reserves, active Army, serve in IRR (without deployment exemptions), serve in the ARNG as a non-physican or something else? Similarly, what if the list changes between the time you enroll in MDSSP and the time you complete your residency, so that your residency is no longer on the list (i.e., you signed up for MDSSP and residency in meds when meds was on the list, but the ARNG removes meds from the list [thereby making the ARNG list more consistent with the Army Reserves' list, which does not list meds] beginning in your second year of residency)?

wait...STRAP is only available for certain specialties on the list??

 

[henge]

wait...STRAP is only available for certain specialties on the list??

That's how I read it. See p 8, par 8a, of the policy, plus encl 1, on page 15 of the pdf. That's also consistent with the ARNG website. http://www.nationalguard.com/careers/medical-professional-officer/healthcare-bonuses-and-loans And if you really want to get blurry eyed, check these 2007, but apparently still current, Army Regs, p. 77, which address the payback. Interestingly, the regs seem to apply to both AR and ARNG, and indicate that the MDSSP payback should have started after residency even before the 2011 change in the ARNG recruitment policy. But this is too complicated to dabble in with confidence, and there may be other documents that allow exceptions.
http://www.usarec.army.mil/im/formpub/REC_PUBS/R601_37.pdf

 

[notdeadyet]

so if my understanding is correct, a student has several options. assuming a student who joined the guard at the outset of medical school (so four years of service during med school) takes two years of mdssp (therefore four years of additional payback) and has no intent of HPLRP:
1. the four years will start immediately with graduation if the student takes STRAP. so...pgy-1 through pgy-4 will be served paying both the mdssp obligation AND the mso contract of remaining four years.

Correct

so starting with pgy-5, the strap obligation will also have to be paid back in a 1:1 status.

No. When you take MDSSP + STRAP, your MDSSP becomes 1:1 payback, but STRAP remains 2:1 payback.

let's say i took one year of strap during pgy-1, for instance - will i payback my pgy-5 year for the strap?

No. MDSSP is 2:1 and STRAP is 2:1 payback. If you take them together, MDSSP becomes 1:1 ONLY for the number of years that you take STRAP. Also, although you can take STRAP for less than your complete residency, it needs to be taken so that you complete residency on STRAP. e.g. if you take one year of STRAP in a four year residency, you can only take it in your PGY-4 year.

2. as a further edit to the above question - there was some language in the document sent out by henge that i was unsure of, specifically section 10 b (1). what if the residency is a long one, say surgical subspecialty (let's say 7 years of residency for the longest one that i know). for the aforementioned case, pgy-1 through pgy-4 will be served paying back both MSO and mdssp, then pgy-5 can be served paying back STRAP? this is all so confusing hahah, would appreciate any insight into this.

No. In order for you to have 1:1 payback of MDSSP, you would need to be in STRAP for 4 years. So you would graduate owing 8 years of payback post-residency for 4 years of STRAP.

Besides which, MDSSP is not paid back until AFTER residency unless you are on STRAP. So if you do not take STRAP until later in residency, those first residency years are not MDSSP payback.

3. what is the whole deal with critically short wartime specialty, etc? what if your residency is NOT on the list, does that change the payback obligation, when it starts, etc?
4. if the student does NOT take STRAP, then the mdssp payback will start post-residency.

3 and 4 have the same answer: if you enter a specialty not on the wartime specialty list to take STRAp or do not elect to take STRAP, you owe 2:1 payback of your MDSSP years, payable after residency.

Hope this helps...

 

[lepetit]

Last go round, STRAP was only for the specialties on the critical warfare shortages list. Most were included on this except for the pretty esoteric specialties...

actually, i'd venture to say that many specialties are NOT on the list. much of those specialties on the list are internal medicine subspecialties, and the only surgery representations are general and ortho. that is pretty limited in my view.

 

[notdeadyet]

Surgery specialties are not fellowship? Other than general and ortho, which surgery specialties to go into immediately after medical school? I know you can for plastics and a handful of vascular, are there many others?

What specialty are you looking at?

 

[notdeadyet]

Anyway, let me know if the answers above didn't make sense…

 

[lepetit]

Surgery specialties are not fellowship? Other than general and ortho, which surgery specialties to go into immediately after medical school? I know you can for plastics and a handful of vascular, are there many others?

What specialty are you looking at?

there are surgical specialties in plastics and vascular as you mentioned, along with ophthalmology, neurosurgery, ENT, urology, some integrated programs (like CV) that you enter directly from medical school. rad onc isn't on the list either, and neither is derm.

 

[DeadCactus]

Notdeadyet, off-topic for this thread but I recall you having good information on supplemental ways for getting enough points for a good year in the Guard. Any particularly references you can recommend for getting up to speed on the subject? I'm going to have to worry about that in the very near future.

 

[notdeadyet]

there are surgical specialties in plastics and vascular as you mentioned, along with ophthalmology, neurosurgery, ENT, urology, some integrated programs (like CV) that you enter directly from medical school. rad onc isn't on the list either, and neither is derm.

Ah, gotcha. Now I see what's going on.

The document you're looking at, the one henge posted, is from MAR 2011. It's out of date. The more recent one is from JAN 2012:
MEDSOM #12-001 ARNG-CSG--FY 12-13 ARNG AMEDD Officer Incentives.pdf

The Critical Skill Shortage List is more flushed out. Keep in mind that any you can take STRAP if you are in any of the Authorized Substitutability List for roles the Guard is actively for (which are Field Surgeon's, Flight Surgeons, and Psychiatrists). Field Surgeon roles can be filled by anyone except for Nuc Med, anesthesia, psych, radiology, or path. As for Derm, no one is recruiting for this in any of the branches (as you can see in the attachment).

It's important to keep in mind how the role of the Guard is a little different from the Army Reserve in that it's more combat-centric. The tertiary level stuff is not the Guard's bread and butter. So if you enter the Guard via MDSSP or some other program and when you start looking at STRAP decide on a specialty not on the Guard's Critical Skill Shortage List, you just transfer over to the Reserve side. It happens all the time.

 

[lepetit]

Ah, gotcha. Now I see what's going on.

The document you're looking at, the one henge posted, is from MAR 2011. It's out of date. The more recent one is from JAN 2012:
MEDSOM #12-001 ARNG-CSG--FY 12-13 ARNG AMEDD Officer Incentives.pdf

The Critical Skill Shortage List is more flushed out. Keep in mind that any you can take STRAP if you are in any of the Authorized Substitutability List for roles the Guard is actively for (which are Field Surgeon's, Flight Surgeons, and Psychiatrists). Field Surgeon roles can be filled by anyone except for Nuc Med, anesthesia, psych, radiology, or path. As for Derm, no one is recruiting for this in any of the branches (as you can see in the attachment).

It's important to keep in mind how the role of the Guard is a little different from the Army Reserve in that it's more combat-centric. The tertiary level stuff is not the Guard's bread and butter. So if you enter the Guard via MDSSP or some other program and when you start looking at STRAP decide on a specialty not on the Guard's Critical Skill Shortage List, you just transfer over to the Reserve side. It happens all the time.

Ahh! So just to clarify, it is possible to continue as a "Field Surgeon" or "Flight Surgeon" in the Guard while doing your own thing residency wise (say, ENT for example). This means that one would not have to transfer over to the Reserves correct and just continue a Guard career? I understand that the only residencies that you would have to transfer over to the Reserves are the aforementioned (Nukes, Anesthesia, Psych, Rads, and Path).

Also - a separate point - are 2LT's in med/dental programs eligible for promotion to 1LT after 18 months? Is there a precedent for that? I only ask because I've met ASR's who were 2LT's throughout all of medical school, and then get fast tracked to CPT once they graduate. The extra benefits and responsibility with 1LT sound pretty nice.

 

[notdeadyet]

Ahh! So just to clarify, it is possible to continue as a "Field Surgeon" or "Flight Surgeon" in the Guard while doing your own thing residency wise (say, ENT for example). This means that one would not have to transfer over to the Reserves correct and just continue a Guard career?

Correct. Assuming you are pursuing one of the substitutable specialties on that list (which is most of them).

Also - a separate point - are 2LT's in med/dental programs eligible for promotion to 1LT after 18 months? Is there a precedent for that? I only ask because I've met ASR's who were 2LT's throughout all of medical school, and then get fast tracked to CPT once they graduate. The extra benefits and responsibility with 1LT sound pretty nice.

You are promotable to 1LT after 18 months while in medical school, but you have to go to BOLC first. I was promoted in 4th year.

There aren't any extra benefits (other than pay) or responsibilities. You do not have a function in the Guard before you have a medical license because you do not have a functional MOS and and aren't qualified to do anything. The flexi-training thing that allows you to miss drills for school and residency is great (and vital) but it also means your command can't count on you to be at every drill like other officers so you don't get assigned responsibilities of any significance until later.

 

[MTGas2B]

What's the story with the guard CCATT units that were talked about last year.

http://www.usmedicine.com/emergencymedicine/air-guard-takes-on-ccatt-mission.html#.UNSD_L-9Kc0

Where are they pulling the critical care type for these units, if the current specialty list is so narrow?