Naturopaths Fight For Equal Status In Oregon

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http://www.opb.org/radio/programs/thinkoutloud/segment/naturopaths-fight-for-equal-status-in-oregon/
Naturopaths Fight For Equal Status In Oregon

OPB | Jan. 15, 2015 12:20 p.m.


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Naturopathic doctors are fighting to be considered primary care physicians in Oregon. One of the provisions of the Affordable Care Act says health insurance consumers will have access to providers of their choosing and that insurers will not discriminate against a particular provider. Now, naturopaths in Oregon want that non-discrimination language added to state legislation, arguing they are still being shut out of some insurance plans despite their patients’ wishes.

GUESTS:


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http://www.opb.org/radio/programs/thinkoutloud/segment/naturopaths-fight-for-equal-status-in-oregon/
Naturopaths Fight For Equal Status In Oregon

OPB | Jan. 15, 2015 12:20 p.m.


.

Naturopathic doctors are fighting to be considered primary care physicians in Oregon. One of the provisions of the Affordable Care Act says health insurance consumers will have access to providers of their choosing and that insurers will not discriminate against a particular provider. Now, naturopaths in Oregon want that non-discrimination language added to state legislation, arguing they are still being shut out of some insurance plans despite their patients’ wishes.

GUESTS:


How will they be credentialed at hospitals?
How will naturopathic obstetrics be differentiated from the scope of practice of mid-wifery?
Should ND's be licensed under they same board as MD's/DO's?
How will ND's share call or ER rotation for unassigned patients in the community?

Having ND's as PCP's that not integrated into the CCO model has created a lot of problems with coordinating care--especially when the ND's are writing for opioids.
 
Jesus.

They are already considered PCPs in the People's Socialist Republic of Washington State.

Problem is, they don't act as PCPs. They act as continue to act as naturopaths, meaning vitamin supplements, reiki, bunch of other voodoo, with lab tests that are geared toward always proving their wacky theories correct, such as stuff found at the Great Smokies lab. Patients walking around with full blown CHF. The edema attributed to "poor lymph flow," etc. No cardiac workup or consideration ever done.

I can't tell you how many "chronic Lyme disease" patients are walking around Washington state like zombies. They are so proud of this diagnosis.
 
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We're devolving to third world thinking in some regions of this country. When are we going to give equal status to Witch Doctors, Faith Healers and Shamans?
 
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Oregon naturopaths can prescribe all opioids except buprenorphine including methadone. Some still embrace high dose therapy for chronic pain. I've helped a few ND's with tapers when they've realized that they've gotten over their heads. I've proposed ways our licensing boards to work together as, due to their broad prescribing privileges in our state, they are easy targets for pain pill shoppers. Still, I think that it is unrealistic for them to function as primary care physicians in our state Medicaid system taking care of some of our most medically fragile and complex patients lacking comprehensive medical and surgical training that DO's and MD's possess.
 
Oregon naturopaths can prescribe all opioids except buprenorphine including methadone. Some still embrace high dose therapy for chronic pain. I've helped a few ND's with tapers when they've realized that they've gotten over their heads. I've proposed ways our licensing boards to work together as, due to their broad prescribing privileges in our state, they are easy targets for pain pill shoppers. Still, I think that it is unrealistic for them to function as primary care physicians in our state Medicaid system taking care of some of our most medically fragile and complex patients lacking comprehensive medical and surgical training that DO's and MD's possess.

No. They are not doctors. They pose direct danger to the health and welfare of the people in your state. I would refuse to see or treat any patient that was under the care of a quack.
 
That's ethical. How does that help the patient?

If we can have a parallel universe of healthcare not based in science or reality. Then patients are free to choose. Once they renounce reality they are slready dead to me. Unless they are psychotic. Then they are just psychotic.
 
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If we can have a parallel universe of healthcare not based in science or reality. Then patients are free to choose. Once they renounce reality they are slready dead to me. Unless they are psychotic. Then they are just psychotic.

Uhhhh...except in my Universe patients who go to a ND get mis-diagnosed, mis-managed, and then summarily dumped back into the "conventional" medical system. They go to the ED and get the usual run-around: Trapped between their chiropractor, naturopath, "intuitive healer," psychotherapist, life-coach, minister, massage therapist, Reiki practitioner, pilates instructor, doula, and fluoride-free/non-amaglam dentist they are so confused that they literally can't discern what to do next...that's about the time they end up in my waiting room.

I can't help the fact that they've been duped. All I can do is try to give them a reasonable, evidence-based, path moving forward...I don't see the point of alienating them any further.
 
Do they argue against vaccinations and promote home-births, too?
 
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That's ethical. How does that help the patient?


Except in the case of an emergency, not accepting a patient is not unethical, if the patient-doctor relationship would be compromised because of differences in expectations, goals, etc.
 
This is the direct consequence of Political Correctism, where everybody is equal under the rule of mind control, nobody is subordinate, everybody is their own king, and Islamic Terrorists are "activists."

Hence, anybody that perceives themselves to be physicians can be physicians, qualifications be damned.
 
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Hence, anybody that perceives themselves to be physicians can be physicians, qualifications be damned.

So how do you all feel about mid-levels/physician extenders, even PTs introducing themselves as "doctor"?

Seems everyone want's to be "doctor", no matter what back-door route they take. I feels it's misleading for non MD/DO to portray themselves as doctors.

It's like flicking my funny bone when my patients refer to one of my PA colleagues as "doctor so-and-so". I don't want to sound like a d-bag, so I usually don't say anything. But you any of you correct them or waste breath educating pts about philosophical and training differences when it comes to ND/Doctorate level nurses/PAs/PTs, etc?
 
Well if it happens, on the bright side maybe we can get some proper media coverage of bad outcomes. We don't need peer reviewed articles or case reports. Hard science often fails to influence the public. We need a media campaign.
 
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Oregon

• Number of food stamp recipients: 791,222

• Percentage of the state's population on food stamps: 19.93%

• Total cost of just these benefits alone (That is, how much do just the money on those EBT cards cost the state?): Around $98 million

• Cost of benefits alone per capita in this state: $24.66 per person
 
Oregon

• Number of food stamp recipients: 791,222

• Percentage of the state's population on food stamps: 19.93%

• Total cost of just these benefits alone (That is, how much do just the money on those EBT cards cost the state?): Around $98 million

• Cost of benefits alone per capita in this state: $24.66 per person

I know.

And, still, people keep coming here: http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/08/real_estate/oregon-moving/

We have a fourth-term, Democrat, MD Governor who supports ACO's, population-based health care, and expanded naturopathic scope of licensure. Among the highest property and state income taxes in the US (but no sales tax), a decriminalized cannabis industry, among the nation's highest rate of prescription drug abuse; below average student achievement in public schools and above average teacher compensation. Oregon is a microcosm of where the rest of the country will be if physicians continue to support collectivist ideals. Oregon: It's where young people go to retire.
 
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Oregon is a microcosm of where the rest of the country will be if physicians continue to support collectivist ideals.
no offense, but i fail to see the cause and effect of this statement - physicians supporting collectivist ideals is not going to affect taxes, cannibis industry, school achievement, etc...
 
Oregon

• Number of food stamp recipients: 791,222

• Percentage of the state's population on food stamps: 19.93%

• Total cost of just these benefits alone (That is, how much do just the money on those EBT cards cost the state?): Around $98 million

• Cost of benefits alone per capita in this state: $24.66 per person
That makes Oregon exactly at the national average and is thus completely meaningless: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/record-20-households-food-stamps-2013

Nationally, 20% of people receive food stamps.
 
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no offense, but i fail to see the cause and effect of this statement - physicians supporting collectivist ideals is not going to affect taxes, cannibis industry, school achievement, etc...

The OMA and other organized physician groups rolled over or compromised on a whole range of issues affecting taxes, HMO's, protection for hospitals, corporate practice of medicine, drug policy, etc to the detriment of independent MD's.
 
I once got consulted and ended up watching a 25 year-old kid die from Leukemia because he was treated by a naturopath and a homeopath. Here's the b!tch of it. The kid was an identical twin who's brother was an ideal bone marrow match. He would've survived if he'd gotten a bone marrow transplant. But these two quacks convinced him that getting a bone marrow transplant "would kill him". Instead he was given all these oils and crystals and b.s. Filed a complaint with the state board and as far as I know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING was done. That's the type of thing that makes you want to line bastards up against a wall.
 
filing a complaint with the state medical board will do nothing. They have no control over naturopath
 
I once got consulted and ended up watching a 25 year-old kid die from Leukemia because he was treated by a naturopath and a homeopath. Here's the b!tch of it. The kid was an identical twin who's brother was an ideal bone marrow match. He would've survived if he'd gotten a bone marrow transplant. But these two quacks convinced him that getting a bone marrow transplant "would kill him". Instead he was given all these oils and crystals and b.s. Filed a complaint with the state board and as far as I know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING was done. That's the type of thing that makes you want to line bastards up against a wall.
The parents are as much at fault as those bastards.

Perhaps write an opinion piece to a newspaper or something. Or write it up on the internet and let it blow up.
 
That makes Oregon exactly at the national average and is thus completely meaningless: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-meyer/record-20-households-food-stamps-2013

Nationally, 20% of people receive food stamps.

Sorry, Oregon is the 5th worst state for food stamps.

http://www.news10.net/story/money/c...have-the-most-people-on-food-stamps/21979335/

5. Oregon

• Number of food stamp recipients: 791,222

• Percentage of the state's population on food stamps: 19.93%

• Total cost of just these benefits alone (That is, how much do just the money on those EBT cards cost the state?): Around $98 million

• Cost of benefits alone per capita in this state: $24.66 per person
 
This would be where a few 'Letters to the Editor' of various newspapers would help. Make the point that legislating equality does not confer competency; I think I should be a peer to NASA physicists and nuclear power plant operators and want legislation to make it so...And then ask if anyone trusts me to in any of those roles.
 
The parents are as much at fault as those bastards.

Perhaps write an opinion piece to a newspaper or something. Or write it up on the internet and let it blow up.

the "kid" was 25
 
So how do you all feel about mid-levels/physician extenders, even PTs introducing themselves as "doctor"?

Seems everyone want's to be "doctor", no matter what back-door route they take. I feels it's misleading for non MD/DO to portray themselves as doctors.

It's like flicking my funny bone when my patients refer to one of my PA colleagues as "doctor so-and-so". I don't want to sound like a d-bag, so I usually don't say anything. But you any of you correct them or waste breath educating pts about philosophical and training differences when it comes to ND/Doctorate level nurses/PAs/PTs, etc?

i always correct them. i have no shame. i dont go around calling myself a chef. or a pilot. or an engineer..... because im not those things.
 
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Because we deserve it?
 
Naturopathic Docs Want Bill to Ensure They are Classified as Primary Care
Many patients see a naturopath as their primary care provider and clinics such as ZoomCare use them interchangeably with nurse practitioners. But a quarter of the insurance companies charge special copayments for naturopaths or don’t allow them to bill for preventive services.
Chris Gray

The Legislature may be stepping in to settle a dispute between health insurance companies and naturopathic physicians, who argue that the companies are misclassifying many of their providers as speciality care and subjecting patients to hire out-of-pocket fees.
Some insurance companies have cast naturopaths off with chiropractors, acupuncturists and massage therapists as an auxiliary service, which are covered differently, if at all.
But naturopath Jeff Clark of Tualatin testified that many if not most naturopaths work not as an auxiliary healthcare service but as a patient’s primary care provider. “I am a contracted in-network provider for most of Oregon’s major health insurance carriers,” Clark said. “I bill the same codes as MDs, offer the same services as other [primary care providers], and use all the same forms and paperwork.”
Sara Gillham, a naturopath at ZoomCare, said that her clinic chain uses naturopaths interchangeably with nurse practitioners and physician assistants, and it could often be the luck of the draw what class of provider a patient might see when coming to ZoomCare for quick healthcare attention.
<“If it happens to be a naturopath in the clinic that day, they have to have either preventive services subject to a deductible or have a higher copay or coinsurance,” Gillham said. “This really has been a problem for our patients.”
She said this discrepancy doesn’t occur for all their patients, in fact, only one-quarter of those with insurance have a health plan that charges higher out-of-pocket costs for naturopaths than nurse practitioners.
House Bill 3301 was introduced by Rep. John Lively, D-Springfield, a member of the Health Committee, who said he had used a naturopath for his own health needs but experienced widely variable coverage from his insurance company. The bill would require insurance companies to let a naturopath determine the type of medicine they practice -- primary care or speciality care -- and bill accordingly.
“One of my big issues is access and letting people be allowed to work to the height of their license,” Lively told his colleagues.
Oregon has long been a leader in including the naturopathic care perspective in the menu of healthcare options available to a patient, and the National College of Natural Medicine in Portland is the oldest of four schools accredited in the United States to train naturopaths.
A naturopathic doctor in Oregon can diagnose and treat disease, perform physical exams and all preventive services, order diagnostic labs and imaging, prescribe all pharmaceuticals needed in a primary care practice, coordinate hospital care, refer to specialists, and perform minor surgery. Oregon Association of Naturopathic Physicians lobbyist Ryan Fisher said their work was comparable to a nurse practitioner.
Clark said that if patients see a naturopath classified as a specialist, the copayments will often be twice as much as a primary care provider. “Most insurers also do not allow specialists to provide preventive health services such as well-woman visits, childhood vaccinations and annual physical exams,” he said.
Tom Holt of Cambia Health Solutions testified on the bill but didn’t oppose HB 3301 outright -- he said that Cambia and its chief subsidiary in Oregon -- Regence BlueCross BlueShield -- does include naturopaths in its network, but wanted the language changed so that the insurance company could still determine which providers are primary and which are considered speciality.
ZoomCare lobbyist Len Bergstein objected to this request, saying it’s what caused the problem in the first place, and suggested a third party, such as the Oregon Board of Naturopathic Medicine assign provider type.
Rep. Mitch Greenlick, D-Portland, asked Lively to work with Holt on an amendment before HB 3301 can clear the House Health Committee.
Mar 25 2015
 
Overall rank (Worst states)
• Maine (47)
• New York (48)
• Oregon (49)
• New Jersey (50)
• Rhode Island (51)
 
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i had to look up naturopathy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturopathy

Naturopathy
or naturopathic medicine is a form of alternative medicine employing a wide array of "natural" treatments, includinghomeopathy, herbalism, and acupuncture, as well as diet and lifestyle counseling. Naturopaths favor a holistic approach with non-invasive treatment and generally avoid the use of surgery and drugs. Naturopathic philosophy is based on a belief in vitalism and self-healing, and practitioners often prefer methods of treatment that are not compatible with evidence-based medicine. Naturopathic medicine is replete with pseudoscientific, ineffective, unethical, and possibly dangerous practices.[1]

on a side note, every time i hear ROLFING i think "Roll on floor laughing..." met a guy at a medical conference who told me he was a 38th degree Rolfer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolfing
 
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