Navy Bonus 5 months late

[narcusprince]

So for those that did not know. The Navy delayed our physician bonuses by 5 months. Air Force and Army received their full bonuses Oct 1, 2016. My colleagues have expressed outrage some getting angry enough to inform their congressman. The issue is the Navy offers no apologies or consolatory tone for their actions. Our fellow physicians and sailors continue to show up and assume their responsibilities to their patients. The Navy has not even expressed an apology to our physicians. The special pays Director Mr Marin needs some due training in sensitivity and using the words I am sorry. This is a disgrace to our service and heads need to roll. Thank you to all those physicians who continue to do their duties. Keep the faith!

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[Perrotfish]

When you're in the OR, I hope someone else is doing the counts.

 

[narcusprince]

Perrot
It was not on our LES so the earliest would be feb 15 or march 1. 4.5-5 months.

 

[IlDestriero]

You all should notify your congressmen/women and F/u with another email/call every month until you get clarification or resolution.


--
Il Destriero

 

[SeminoleFan3]

The basic response I got when I emailed the special pays folks at BUMED was basically "not our fault the NAVADMIN got released late."

 

[narcusprince]

The basic response I got when I emailed the special pays folks at BUMED was basically "not our fault the NAVADMIN got released late."

Even still in years past as soon as the navadmin is released the bonus hits our pockets 2 weeks later. This csp mess is terrible. I feel for the first timers out of residency not recieving their bonuses. Its a total mess.

 

[tweaked17]

Even still in years past as soon as the navadmin is released the bonus hits our pockets 2 weeks later. This csp mess is terrible. I feel for the first timers out of residency not recieving their bonuses. Its a total mess.

I'm one of those. Good thing my mortgage payment just went up >$600/mo.

Still waiting to see my BCP, as well.

Now, I've saved and have always lived below my means, but I'm planning a wedding and have budgeted using an income I'm not actually receiving. Frustrating, but I really feel for those who have larger families and expenses that exceed my own.

 

[pgg]

You all should notify your congressmen/women and F/u with another email/call every month until you get clarification or resolution.

I guess, if it makes anybody feel better. The responsibility for this fiasco is so diluted that no one is really accountable, no individual is to blame.

And no one really cares. We in the medical corps (i.e. the resources we consume) are an unwelcome burden to the DOD. Every dollar they pay us is a dollar they can't spend on stuff that drives, flies, sails, spots, shoots, detonates, feeds, trains, and recruits the important parts of the warfighting machine.

It wasn't that long ago that it took nationwide media coverage and outrage to fix the California National Guard's egregious attempt to claw back bonuses given to soldiers who were deployed after being recruited with those bonuses.

Ain't nobody going to care that 5 and 6-figure "bonuses" to doctors are merely late.


When I was in Afghanistan in 2012 I participated in the savings deposit program. The look of disbelief and disgust on the face of the E4-ish soldier who processed my $10K deposit and saw my LES documenting my $110K MSP/ISP "bonus" told me everything I need to know about how the rest of the military views our pay.

They. Don't. Care.

Y'all will get paid when you get paid. And that's the way it is.

 

[deleted480308]

I guess, if it makes anybody feel better. The responsibility for this fiasco is so diluted that no one is really accountable, no individual is to blame.

And no one really cares. We in the medical corps (i.e. the resources we consume) are an unwelcome burden to the DOD. Every dollar they pay us is a dollar they can't spend on stuff that drives, flies, sails, spots, shoots, detonates, feeds, trains, and recruits the important parts of the warfighting machine.

It wasn't that long ago that it took nationwide media coverage and outrage to fix the California National Guard's egregious attempt to claw back bonuses given to soldiers who were deployed after being recruited with those bonuses.

Ain't nobody going to care that 5 and 6-figure "bonuses" to doctors are merely late.


When I was in Afghanistan in 2012 I participated in the savings deposit program. The look of disbelief and disgust on the face of the E4-ish soldier who processed my $10K deposit and saw my LES documenting my $110K MSP/ISP "bonus" told me everything I need to know about how the rest of the military views our pay.

They. Don't. Care.

Y'all will get paid when you get paid. And that's the way it is.

yep.....I remember a decent chunk of news coverage because some seal/special forces guys couldn't take their guns home with them....people will care far more about that then doctors

it's part of the distaste for wealthy/educated, people simply don't care as much about our cohort

 

[narcusprince]

PGG,
I disagree that we are a burden to the DOD. If so why don't they farm out all of the medical corps to the private sector. We are a necessity of the navy that is integral to maintaining the health of our service men and women. I find it disingenuous that the navy enters into a contract with said provider. We will pay you x money on x date but we may delay it, but you must do x services when we say do x services and do not be late. Yes we are well paid, however we are educated and being paid at a level less then commiserate to our civilian counterparts. When I moonlight I get paid after services rendered and never late. As a physician and medical student you bust your butt to be top of the class and on-time with assignments etc to live up to your commitment. Its kind of defeating that in the end when you are well trained and most valuable they treat you the worst(by delaying your money). I am over it. If I could get out yesterday I would be gone.

 

[pgg]

I think you miss my point. You don't have to convince me ...

It's the people who haven't processed the paperwork to get paid you on time, and by all appearance don't care that you haven't been paid on time, who have the gall to get annoyed with you when you keep asking them, that need to be convinced.

Good luck with that. In their eyes, we're lazy officers and rich doctors.

 

[SeminoleFan3]

Again told by DFAS that they don't have any record of receiving anything about my special pays, and basically told by BUMED "you'll get it when you get it." I'll bet the same people saying that wouldn't be giving the same message if it were thousands of dollars of their pay being held.

 

[Perrotfish]

PGG,
I disagree that we are a burden to the DOD. If so why don't they farm out all of the medical corps to the private sector.

I think they're trying to do this more and more, andits a good idea. A civilian Pediatrician, free of all of the military nonsense, could provide better care than I can, for a fraction of what I cost. As an added bonus you wouldn't have hundreds of military Pediatricians at risk for getting rotated into a battalion/brigade surgeon role despite a complete lack of relevant qualifications.

 

[pgg]

I think they're trying to do this more and more, andits a good idea. A civilian Pediatrician, free of all of the military nonsense, could provide better care than I can, for a fraction of what I cost. As an added bonus you wouldn't have hundreds of military Pediatricians at risk for getting rotated into a battalion/brigade surgeon role despite a complete lack of relevant qualifications.

Ah but they need to fill the brigade surgeon billets ... who better than a pediatrician? This is a feature, not a bug.


The case for NOT farming everything out and slashing the AD physician corps size has two legs

1) Inservice GME - if you take anything more away at this point, the whole system (every specialty save FP) becomes untenable. It appears we're committed to keeping GME. There's a lot to say about this that won't fit in this 2-entry bullet list, but I'll quickly add that there aren't enough GME slots in the United States to absorb the loss of military residencies and leave it at that.

2) So-called "institutional knowledge" - something we used to lose between wars in ye very olden days when we more or less disbanded the armed forces a couple hours after the war was over. Standing armies retain knowledge better for the next conflict, and the argument goes that a standing medical corps does too. I think that's bunk in the modern era, at least WRT battlefield and forward medicine, but influential people believe it. (It's why we have USUHS despite its huge cost.)

 

[DrMetal]

(It's why we have USUHS despite its huge cost.)

A common sentiment that I'd like to debunk......I don't think USUHS really costs all that much, in the grand scheme of the DoD budget...it's probably a drop in the bucket. Quite honestly, I think USUHS is one of the more cost-effective programs in the gov't. It produces tangible products (doctors, nurses, etc....all of whom have steep obligations), it's money well spent (and again, probably not that costly).

You want to see high costs and gov't waste at it's finest, look no further than the JSF program, the LCS program in the Navy, or the Fat Leonard scandal. The billions wasted there could open up a 100 USUHS campuses.

 

[narcusprince]

I always thought they should close usuhs at least the medical programs. Nursing I would argue they should keep aroubd as nursing at least crna practice differs from civilian training. Cardiologists, gastroenterologist, internal medicine practice under the same standard as civilian practice. Drain the swamp.

 

[pgg]

A common sentiment that I'd like to debunk......I don't think USUHS really costs all that much, in the grand scheme of the DoD budget...it's probably a drop in the bucket. Quite honestly, I think USUHS is one of the more cost-effective programs in the gov't. It produces tangible products (doctors, nurses, etc....all of whom have steep obligations), it's money well spent (and again, probably not that costly).

You want to see high costs and gov't waste at it's finest, look no further than the JSF program, the LCS program in the Navy, or the Fat Leonard scandal. The billions wasted there could open up a 100 USUHS campuses.

Your points are well taken - USUHS does produce an excellent product and the long ADSO means a good % of its graduates will stay for 20. (Whether or not the DOD really wants us to stay for 20 is another issue.)

But that's not the question. Nor are comparisons to projects with massive cost overruns and dubious value appropriate.

The questions are whether or not
1) USUHS produces doctors for a cost comparable to HPSP
2) The other benefits of USUHS over HPSP (the institutional knowledge it preserves, the research infrastructure, and the higher % of lifers), are worth the premium over an HPSP graduate.

1 is clearly false. There's just no comparison between paying someone's tuition in return for a 4 year ADSO (often extended via the back door of GMO + inservice GME time), and running a university in Bethesda in return for a 7 year ADSO. The salary and benefits alone for an active duty O1 med student in DC are comparable to tuition + stipend at another school, before we even start to count the cost of the facility, faculty, clerkship travel, etc.

As for 2 ... well, if we're seriously talking about privatizing large parts of the military health system and getting rid of inservice military GME, then the implied argument is that maybe the unique things USUHS does well don't really matter very much, if your endpoints of interest are operational unit readiness and battlefield survival percentages.

We might add a 3rd question - are the other (non-MD) degree and training programs that USUHS also runs a good value? Are they such an amazingly good value that they make up for the high cost on the MD side? I don't know, but I'm dubious.


Full disclosure, I'm a USUHS grad and will be in for 20. I had a very positive experience there and think it's an excellent school.

 

[Perrotfish]

One of the other docs at my command has been paid. So likely our pay isn't far behind.

 

[narcusprince]

One of the other docs at my command has been paid. So likely our pay isn't far behind.

Same here!

 

[SeminoleFan3]

Same here. Although then told by BUMED basically no rhyme or reason to how people are getting paid (the order), as I know someone who signed after me who's gotten paid.

 

[DrMetal]

1) USUHS produces doctors for a cost comparable to HPSP

If this ever became a real point of contention, I would just argue to increase the USUHS ADSO (make it a 8-year ADSO, or 9-, or even 10-years). You'll ensure even more stay in for a career, making the program even more cost effective....

 

[Gastrapathy]

If this ever became a real point of contention, I would just argue to increase the USUHS ADSO (make it a 8-year ADSO, or 9-, or even 10-years). You'll ensure even more stay in for a career, making the program even more cost effective....

Docs staying to retirement is not more cost effective.

 

[Atlas Shrugged]

If this ever became a real point of contention, I would just argue to increase the USUHS ADSO (make it a 8-year ADSO, or 9-, or even 10-years). You'll ensure even more stay in for a career, making the program even more cost effective....

Don't give them any ideas.

 

[narcusprince]

Create two civilian pathways Hpsp same as old. And Usuhs scholarship that pays more but comes with a adso of 7 years post residency. With usuhs scholarship you can go to whatever medical school allows you entry.

 

[pgg]

If this ever became a real point of contention, I would just argue to increase the USUHS ADSO (make it a 8-year ADSO, or 9-, or even 10-years). You'll ensure even more stay in for a career, making the program even more cost effective....

Enticing more people to stay for retirement just increases the cost.

 

[DrMetal]

Enticing more people to stay for retirement just increases the cost.

Possibly so. Leave it the same then. The other myth I'd like to debunk is that healthcare is too costly in the mil...it is not (and if it is, so be it....it's money well spent). Look not to the medical world (either the academic or patient care aspect) for financial waste in our government...there's much bigger fish to fry


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Gastrapathy]

Its not to expensive and if it is who cares? Really? Thats a strange argument for debunking the incredible cost of healthcare delivery in the .mil. The money isn't wasted by the front line MDs. Its the infinite bureaucracy in the basement. Did you read the congressional report about the thousands of people working at BUMED moving paper around? They seem to think your waste matters.

 

[Perrotfish]

We got another email today about our pay. It was a mile long but basically the take home message was:

1) Yes, its late, too bad

2) We have been getting the old board certification pay and VSP since October, which the contract does not cover. They can't figure out how to take that money out of the back pay. So at some point after we get the back pay (which includes the new board certification pay) one of our paychecks will disappear when they take back the old board certification pay and VSP.

 

[narcusprince]

Thanks Perrot. This csp is one huge mess. Hopefully the air force and army have a better way of phasing this in. Learn from our mistakes. Its funny that before we get paid we are told we owe.

We got another email today about our pay. It was a mile long but basically the take home message was:

1) Yes, its late, too bad

2) We have been getting the old board certification pay and VSP since October, which the contract does not cover. They can't figure out how to take that money out of the back pay. So at some point after we get the back pay (which includes the new board certification pay) one of our paychecks will disappear when they take back the old board certification pay and VSP.

 

[Perrotfish]

Thanks Perrot. This csp is one huge mess. Hopefully the air force and army have a better way of phasing this in. Learn from our mistakes. Its funny that before we get paid we are told we owe.

Honestly I'm proud of them for figuring out that the new bonus needs to kick in before taking back a paycheck

 

[SeminoleFan3]

FYI, looks like my bonus is set to hit at the next pay period. Could have been worse I guess...

 

[SeminoleFan3]

And yes, appears that the VSP/BCP should be taken out of the next one because this one is bigger than I calculated.

 

[narcusprince]

I have heard Mr Marin has changed his tone and was a lot more conciliatory about the situation. It's nice to hear this and people are getting their bonuses.

 

[hello1234!]

I am not in the military, but this makes me mad. That people who commit to serving get treated this way... ...

 

[Shikima]

I am not in the military, but this makes me mad. That people who commit to serving get treated this way... ...

All gov't service is treated this way. Physicians are no more revered than the mechanic in the motor pool, and the senior guy there gets more respect.

 

[narcusprince]

It's not all bad. I have worked with some good people. My current department head is excellent. The working environment besides the military Bs is low stress.

 

[narcusprince]

Seminolefan did you call Dfas? How did you find out the bonus was coming. I spoke to Dfas and they had no clue what I was talking about?

 

[SeminoleFan3]

Seminolefan did you call Dfas? How did you find out the bonus was coming. I spoke to Dfas and they had no clue what I was talking about?

I called DFAS twice and they had no clue what I was talking about. My mid-month LES shows up as a significant amount of money more than my regular check (about $10K more), so should hit the bank Wednesday.

 

[SeminoleFan3]

I called DFAS twice and they had no clue what I was talking about. My mid-month LES shows up as a significant amount of money more than my regular check (about $10K more), so should hit the bank Wednesday.

This is about a week after I last talked to DFAS, who at that time had no clue what I was talking about either. Apparently "one guy" has a list and is working on it but no one has visibility at DFAS of this other than him and whoever he's working with (so the operator you talk to won't), so said BUMED.

 

[Perrotfish]

So I got the new bonus, but none of the back pay. I don't know anyone else who has had that happen... so that can't be good.

 

[narcusprince]

So I got the new bonus, but none of the back pay. I don't know anyone else who has had that happen... so that can't be good.

I'm sure you contacted your chain of command. I would bet that the back pay comes in your next check. Not good.

 

[SeminoleFan3]

So I got the new bonus, but none of the back pay. I don't know anyone else who has had that happen... so that can't be good.

Weird.

I got the backpay, except I don't believe the VSP/BCP paid from Oct-Feb were deducted so next check likely to be smaller than normal.

 

[narcusprince]

I still have not seen anyone in my command who has been paid their bonus + back pay. A physician in my command has written his congressman. I'm looking at March 1 as the earliest date......

 

[Monty Python]

I still have not seen anyone in my command who has been paid their bonus + back pay. A physician in my command has written his congressman. I'm looking at March 1 as the earliest date......

The USN had to find funding somewhere to support the next Uniform Board, so they robbed Peter to pay Paul. It's essential we have deliberation very soon on the proposed NWU type 12 and the PT windsuit (they've only wasted a full decade on that item ).

 

[narcusprince]

Bonus was on LES. I like their math....

 

[Perrotfish]

My new LES has the back pay from just the BCP, but not the CSP. I am giving them two more pay periods to fix it completely before I start slogging throught phone calls.

I try to remind myself that, ultimately, this pay change means I'll be getting an extra 20K over the course of my commitment.

 

[tweaked17]

Another LES, and no sign of my BCP or CSP. I know they have been trickling in for others, but how many out there are still waiting to see something?

I've bugged my local special pay rep multiple times (now have been ignored >7 days) and requested information from Mr. Marin's office. Guess it's time to start writing my congressman? CO's suggestion box? Hah..

 

[SeminoleFan3]

Is everyone's backpay adding up to what it should? Mine's shirt a few hundred dollars I believe.

 

[Perrotfish]

I followed up, and they did in fact lose my paperwork for the special pay. So now I start the 30 day wait for DFAS to process it.

 

[SeminoleFan3]

I followed up, and they did in fact lose my paperwork for the special pay. So now I start the 30 day wait for DFAS to process it.