Navy Doctor Career Tracts

[|2idicu|ous]

Hello there-
I've made a timeline/table of several Navy Doctor Career Tracts I am considering. I think it will be helpful for others like me who struggle to put the whole picture together. Most of the $$ figures I have gleaned off the forums and the net. I thought I would share it and get feedback/corrections- help me get the info right. Thanks.

NavyDoctorCareerTract.pdf

ps- its red, white, and blue

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[|2idicu|ous]

I haven't put in "interest saved" and stuff like that because I wasn't sure what it would be- so if you know, let me know.
Anything else you think should go on there- let me know. thanks again.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Hello there-
I've made a timeline/table of several Navy Doctor Career Tracts I am considering. I think it will be helpful for others like me who struggle to put the whole picture together. Most of the $$ figures I have gleaned off the forums and the net. I thought I would share it and get feedback/corrections- help me get the info right. Thanks.

NavyDoctorCareerTract.pdf

ps- its red, white, and blue

Pretty funny, maybe unintentionally.

One upon a time, the powers that were tried to describe distinct career paths that could be available to a military physician: one was a clinician-practitioner/educator track, another a physician-administrator track, another an occupational physician-aviation medical track and a researcher-educator track. Supposedly each of these pathways had the potential to allow advancement to major command, and was supposed to prevent the common shunting to administrative jobs at mid career that was a dissatisfier to many military physicians. I don't think it got very far, but it was a nice idea.

I think the most common path is still through the internship-to-GMO service tract [sic], which results in the physician being squeezed out after about four or five years. Usually you are loose at that point, and not fully formed, but at least you aren't an administrator. They require disimpaction to remove.

 

[|2idicu|ous]

I guess I didn't really word my initial post very well. They aren't so much plans as possibilities that one must be prepared for.

I don't really understand what was funny about it though.

 

[NavyFP]

Hello there-
I've made a timeline/table of several Navy Doctor Career Tracts I am considering. I think it will be helpful for others like me who struggle to put the whole picture together. Most of the $$ figures I have gleaned off the forums and the net. I thought I would share it and get feedback/corrections- help me get the info right. Thanks.

NavyDoctorCareerTract.pdf

ps- its red, white, and blue

Not bad. I think the figures are reasonable, though there is certainly some variability with differing ISPs. I see two possible errors. You are not figuring the payback time you incur from residency. For the four year with GMO, you need to add another year of practice to account for the 3 years in residency. For the three year with GMO you need to add 2 years of practice.

 

[|2idicu|ous]

Not bad. I think the figures are reasonable, though there is certainly some variability with differing ISPs. I see two possible errors. You are not figuring the payback time you incur from residency. For the four year with GMO, you need to add another year of practice to account for the 3 years in residency. For the three year with GMO you need to add 2 years of practice.

wait... what?
My understanding is that residency does not add to your payback time (as long as the residency is less than your initial commitment) and that GMO Tours count for payback. This is wrong?

 

[|2idicu|ous]

I've been looking for more info about what you said about the residency adding years to the commitment after GMO and I have found conflicting info (from even Navy docs)- some I'm still not 100% sure (though I think you are probably correct).
I have found (like you said) that doing the 2-year GMO tour does count for payback, but that if you do a 3-year residency following the GMO Tour, you now have to pay back 3 years since the 3-year residency is longer than your remaining commitment. And I have found info saying my original thoughts were correct.
What say the rest of you?

 

[NavyFP]

I've been looking for more info about what you said about the residency adding years to the commitment after GMO and I have found conflicting info (from even Navy docs)- some I'm still not 100% sure (though I think you are probably correct).
I have found (like you said) that doing the 2-year GMO tour does count for payback, but that if you do a 3-year residency following the GMO Tour, you now have to pay back 3 years since the 3-year residency is longer than your remaining commitment. And I have found info saying my original thoughts were correct.
What say the rest of you?

Ahhhhhhhh, I LOVE obligated service.

Let's break it down.

1) For every year of HPSP you owe one year of service not in training.
2) For every year of Residency you owe one year of service not in training.
3) Time owed for Residency can be paid back at the same time as HPSP. (concurrent payback)
4) You can't prepay time. If you do 15 years as a GMO, you would still owe year for year for residency after completion, if you did a residency.

So for your 3 year residency, you would owe 3 years. If you still owe 3 or more from HPSP it is a wash. If you owe less, the larger of the two amounts is your new obligated service date.

Does this make sense to you?

 

[|2idicu|ous]

Ahhhhhhhh, I LOVE obligated service.

Let's break it down.

1) For every year of HPSP you owe one year of service not in training.
2) For every year of Residency you owe one year of service not in training.
3) Time owed for Residency can be paid back at the same time as HPSP. (concurrent payback)
4) You can't prepay time. If you do 15 years as a GMO, you would still owe year for year for residency after completion, if you did a residency.

So for your 3 year residency, you would owe 3 years. If you still owe 3 or more from HPSP it is a wash. If you owe less, the larger of the two amounts is your new obligated service date.

Does this make sense to you?

Absolutely. There's just a lot of misinformation out there.

So I've updated the file with new info and added some more GMO possibilities.
NavyDoctorCareerTract2.pdf

 

[met19]

Absolutely. There's just a lot of misinformation out there.

So I've updated the file with new info and added some more GMO possibilities.
NavyDoctorCareerTract2.pdf

maybe we should add a line for us deferred types....

 

[|2idicu|ous]

maybe we should add a line for us deferred types....

I would be glad to... just tell me what it would be.

 

[DNA Helicase]

4yr HPSP w/ no GMO: ~$104,000 per year of payback (832k/8)

4yr HPSP w/ 2yr GMO: ~$98,222 per year of payback (884k/9)

4yr HPSP w/ 4yr GMO: ~$111,800 per year of payback (559k/5)




It does appear to me that if one wants to graduate debt free and get the most bang for their buck (or dollar per year served), the best option is to do 2 GMO tours. Of course, I'm a naive pre-med. Educate me. For some reason I feel that these spreadsheets are oversimplified, but it's interesting nonetheless.



If one is to do 2 GMO tours and separate, is it still possible to match into a military residency without incurring any further payback? Based on my perception of the military match, it does appear that doing a GMO tour has a large impact on your ability to land a more competitive residency. Does doing 2 have an even greater impact? Yah it might seem weird to do your residency 5 years after medical school, but if your goal is just to serve, have the military experience, and join the rest of the world, is this possibility feasible? Any comments would be well recieved.

 

[DNA Helicase]

Is the tuition + expenses limited to 35k/yr during med school? I was under the impression that regardless of tuition cost, it was covered. I will have to do some more research. Another question, this doesn't factor in pay from OIS or any other training received prior to MSI or between MSI and MSII, correct? It may have a marginal impact, but for the sake of accuracy, shouldn't we include it?

Actually, shouldn't some recruiter be compiling and creating these spreadsheets? What are we doing? They could even footnote their source of information. Imagine that!

 

[NavyFP]

Is the tuition + expenses limited to 35k/yr during med school? I was under the impression that regardless of tuition cost, it was covered. I will have to do some more research. Another question, this doesn't factor in pay from OIS or any other training received prior to MSI or between MSI and MSII, correct? It may have a marginal impact, but for the sake of accuracy, shouldn't we include it?

Actually, shouldn't some recruiter be compiling and creating these spreadsheets? What are we doing? They could even footnote their source of information. Imagine that!

There is no cap on what they will pay for tuition. I am assuming his school is $35K. If yours is $50K add another $60K to the total benefit.

The salary part looks right and roughly includes 45 days of AD.

 

[|2idicu|ous]

Is the tuition + expenses limited to 35k/yr during med school? I was under the impression that regardless of tuition cost, it was covered. I will have to do some more research. Another question, this doesn't factor in pay from OIS or any other training received prior to MSI or between MSI and MSII, correct? It may have a marginal impact, but for the sake of accuracy, shouldn't we include it?

Actually, shouldn't some recruiter be compiling and creating these spreadsheets? What are we doing? They could even footnote their source of information. Imagine that!

The $35,000 was based on a school with a tuition around $30,000/yr plus reimbursable expenses (books, equipment, etc). OIS and yearly active duty time were calculated in the stipend amount.

Yes, it would be nice if a recruiter had spreadsheets like this. I'm afraid that most recruiters only know as much as is on the HPSP pamphlet they hand out.

 

[|2idicu|ous]

If one is to do 2 GMO tours and separate, is it still possible to match into a military residency without incurring any further payback? Based on my perception of the military match, it does appear that doing a GMO tour has a large impact on your ability to land a more competitive residency. Does doing 2 have an even greater impact? Yah it might seem weird to do your residency 5 years after medical school, but if your goal is just to serve, have the military experience, and join the rest of the world, is this possibility feasible? Any comments would be well recieved.

I thought someone else would answer your question, but no one did so I will. No, you can't do two GMO tours and then a residency without incurring more payback for the residency- that is what I learned and changed on the spreadsheet from NavyFP.
GMO tours do seem important for landing the Residency of choice. I would think two GMO's would be even more helpful. And it's certainly possible.

 

[DNA Helicase]

Yes, it would be nice if a recruiter had spreadsheets like this. I'm afraid that most recruiters only know as much as is on the HPSP pamphlet they hand out.

The Air Force recruiter I talked to told me I would have great military "residencies" to do during my 3rd and 4th years.

I politely corrected him, "I believe they might are called rotations." "No, you do residencies after your first two years of lectures."

Good times.

This is the point where you completely ignore everything the recruiter says and just ask for the documentation.

 

[DNA Helicase]

I thought someone else would answer your question, but no one did so I will. No, you can't do two GMO tours and then a residency without incurring more payback for the residency- that is what I learned and changed on the spreadsheet from NavyFP.
GMO tours do seem important for landing the Residency of choice. I would think two GMO's would be even more helpful. And it's certainly possible.

Too bad. I guess if your intention was to separate as soon as possible, you probably wouldn't want to do a military residency anyway. That might be kind of weird though, to go 4 years making 73k working less hours, separate and go into a civilian residency working more and earning less. Granted, it's a residency, but still might be a weird lifestyle change.

So I guess the most likely scenario is 4 yr HPSP straight through, doing 8 years in the military (if you're doing something like peds, FP, IM) or 4 yr HPSP with 1 GMO doing 9 years total for some of the more competitive stuff. It seems like you might as well just do the full 20 right? You're half way there. Maybe not though, you'd probably have a higher earning potential on the outside. I'll find out in 15 years. Kind of weird to think about.

 

[BigNavyPedsGuy]

So I guess the most likely scenario is 4 yr HPSP straight through, doing 8 years in the military (if you're doing something like peds, FP, IM) or 4 yr HPSP with 1 GMO doing 9 years total for some of the more competitive stuff. It seems like you might as well just do the full 20 right? You're half way there. Maybe not though, you'd probably have a higher earning potential on the outside. I'll find out in 15 years. Kind of weird to think about.

NO, 1 year internship + 2 years GMO (counts as HPSP payback time) +2 years residency (now owe 2 years for HPSP and 2 years for residency can be served concurrently) + 2 years payback time. 1+2+2+2=7years total that your in for FP, Peds, IM. And just because you're in for 7 years doens't mean

It seems like you might as well just do the full 20 right? You're half way there.

 

[NavyFP]

I thought someone else would answer your question, but no one did so I will. No, you can't do two GMO tours and then a residency without incurring more payback for the residency- that is what I learned and changed on the spreadsheet from NavyFP.
GMO tours do seem important for landing the Residency of choice. I would think two GMO's would be even more helpful. And it's certainly possible.

Sorry, somehow missed the first post. Doing 2 GMO periods does not increase your chances of getting the residency you want. And yes it would increase payback time.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Too bad. I guess if your intention was to separate as soon as possible, you probably wouldn't want to do a military residency anyway. That might be kind of weird though, to go 4 years making 73k working less hours, separate and go into a civilian residency working more and earning less. Granted, it's a residency, but still might be a weird lifestyle change.

Weird or not, that is exactly what many HPSP accessions do, especially if they want residency training in an area which is not plentiful or available in the military. And if you want to do a fellowship, your chances are better outside of the military as orders to fellowship can be driven only by the need for a fellowship-trained specialist at that particular time.

So I guess the most likely scenario is 4 yr HPSP straight through, doing 8 years in the military (if you're doing something like peds, FP, IM) or 4 yr HPSP with 1 GMO doing 9 years total for some of the more competitive stuff. It seems like you might as well just do the full 20 right? You're half way there. Maybe not though, you'd probably have a higher earning potential on the outside. I'll find out in 15 years. Kind of weird to think about.

Doing ten years service so that you can get the 20-year retirement in another ten; doesn't seem so well thought out. The minimum AD service under your scenario is seven years from graduation, assuming you do a three year residency straight through. You would have one additional year IRR at your EAOS.

If you do the typical GMO service, one tour, same three year residency, split one and two (no "resitern", which some IM residencies required of returning fleet GMOs to get them up to speed again on ICU and other hospital-intensive practice), then you are looking at seven years total also. If you go to a three year residency (ophth, anaesthesia, psych, derm), your total service extends another two years (one in residency, one in post-residency service), total of nine. Your IRR obligations are then zero.

Having done only nine or so years is hardly a very compelling reason to do another eleven years service just to get the minimum retirement. You had best want to do that service for a better reason.

 

[met19]

I would be glad to... just tell me what it would be.

instead of gmo or military residency we do a civilian residency followed by 4 years as an attending for the military

 

[|2idicu|ous]

NO, 1 year internship + 2 years GMO (counts as HPSP payback time) +2 years residency (now owe 2 years for HPSP and 2 years for residency can be served concurrently) + 2 years payback time. 1+2+2+2=7years total that your in for FP, Peds, IM. And just because you're in for 7 years doens't mean

So FP, Peds, and IM are only 2-year residencies? Or is the internship year considered the first year of residency?

And can you finish your sentence. We're all waiting with bated breath.

 

[TX_NFS]

And can you finish your sentence. We're all waiting with bated breath.

Hopefully that wasn't a rhetorical request or what not, but I believe BNPG was meaning to finish his thought with the second quote from DNA Helicase.

In any event, thanks for the short but useful PDF!

 

[DNA Helicase]

So FP, Peds, and IM are only 2-year residencies? Or is the internship year considered the first year of residency?

And can you finish your sentence. We're all waiting with bated breath.

He was saying it doesn't mean you should stay in for a career.

 

[beegeforty4]

I know this is a little off topic but I thought I'd ask people who know and are paying attention to this thread:

Say, for instance, you did 2 years as a GMO and then applied for residency. If you don't get the residency that you want (say I wanted FP in Pensacola...I know you can't be that specific with the military, ever, but stay with me) and I didn't get both FP and Pensacola, can I do opt to do another GMO tour instead and try again?

Or is that just a stupid question because I'll probably not get it the second time anyway?

 

[BigNavyPedsGuy]

I know this is a little off topic but I thought I'd ask people who know and are paying attention to this thread:

Say, for instance, you did 2 years as a GMO and then applied for residency. If you don't get the residency that you want (say I wanted FP in Pensacola...I know you can't be that specific with the military, ever, but stay with me) and I didn't get both FP and Pensacola, can I do opt to do another GMO tour instead and try again?

Or is that just a stupid question because I'll probably not get it the second time anyway?

If you're an HPSP student, by the time you finish your second GMO you'll also have the option to get out of the military and try for a civilian residency. I can't imagine, someone doing 4 years of GMO and then opting to increase their payback. (not to say that there aren't those folks out there).

 

[NavyFP]

So FP, Peds, and IM are only 2-year residencies? Or is the internship year considered the first year of residency?

And can you finish your sentence. We're all waiting with bated breath.

FP, PEDs and IM are 3 year programs with internship being year 1. Since internship is neutral, you accrue 2 additional years of obligation. This, of course, can be paid back with your remaining HPSP, or alone if HPSP is shorter.

If you're an HPSP student, by the time you finish your second GMO you'll also have the option to get out of the military and try for a civilian residency. I can't imagine, someone doing 4 years of GMO and then opting to increase their payback. (not to say that there aren't those folks out there).

There are a few, some just love the operational world. These days though you have to be residency trained in something to pick up O5/O6, so eventually you will have to do a residency. (or get out)

 

[DNA Helicase]

One other thing, is the salary quoted for GMO (73k) inclusive of the housing allowance or any of the other extra payments? I have to say, it's pretty confusing.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

If you're an HPSP student, by the time you finish your second GMO you'll also have the option to get out of the military and try for a civilian residency. I can't imagine, someone doing 4 years of GMO and then opting to increase their payback. (not to say that there aren't those folks out there).

Obviously not an ideal situation, but I knew one doc who extended as a flight surgeon beyond his EAOS to pick up a dermatology residency slot. To him, it was a worthwhile trade.

 

[DNA Helicase]

Obviously not an ideal situation, but I knew one doc who extended as a flight surgeon beyond his EAOS to pick up a dermatology residency slot. To him, it was a worthwhile trade.

What does the acronym EAOS stand for? Also, as per my previous question, is the 73k salary of a GMO/FS inclusive of all the specialty and housing pays, or is that separate?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

What does the acronym EAOS stand for? Also, as per my previous question, is the 73k salary of a GMO/FS inclusive of all the specialty and housing pays, or is that separate?

EAOS= Expiration of Active Obligated Service, i.e. the last date a servicemember is obligated to serve in active duty under the terms of his service agreement. For an HPSP-recipient, it is at a minimum the date when your medical school scholarship service repayment period is complete. If you accept residency training, the additional time of obligated service will extend that date.