Navy FAP vs. 2 year Navy HPSP?

[Doctor4Life1769]

Ok, so I have been contemplating joining the military. The question has been if I should join via HPSP or FAP. I'm currently a 3rd year student. I spoke with a Navy recruiter, and I would get my last years paid for, with stipend, and the 20K sign-on bonus. However, since there's no 2 for 2 plan, I'd be paying back with 3 yrs of service (in addition to 1 more with the 20K bonus). So, 20K bonus+2 yrs of tuition/stipends and give back 4 years of service. Given this situation, would it still be worth joining on via HPSP or should I wait until FAP? I know with FAP, when I enter residency, I can get however many years (45K/year) on top of civilian pay + 1 year. Which route would be best to go with? I have to make this decision really soon and any and all advice would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

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[TopSecret]

Ok, so I have been contemplating joining the military. The question has been if I should join via HPSP or FAP. I'm currently a 3rd year student. I spoke with a Navy recruiter, and I would get my last years paid for, with stipend, and the 20K sign-on bonus. However, since there's no 2 for 2 plan, I'd be paying back with 3 yrs of service (in addition to 1 more with the 20K bonus). So, 20K bonus+2 yrs of tuition/stipends and give back 4 years of service. Given this situation, would it still be worth joining on via HPSP or should I wait until FAP? I know with FAP, when I enter residency, I can get however many years (45K/year) on top of civilian pay + 1 year. Which route would be best to go with? I have to make this decision really soon and any and all advice would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

I'm not in the Navy, but from what I gather if you do HPSP you have a high likelihood of doing a GMO tour before residency. If you sign up for FAP, you will at least get to do residency and then enter the Navy as a residency-trained doc. You could then receive the incentive special pay ($20k-36k) for your specialty and board-certification pay (if you pass the boards), which is about $2500.

It seems like the best advice is not to do it for the money. If you're already decided on joining the Navy, then it might be better to go FAP and choose your own specialty.

So your pay may look something like this as a residency-trained Navy O-3 (without dependents)

Base pay - $59,000
Incentive special pay - $20,000 for primary care specialties, $28k-36k for EM, surgeons, radiologists
Variable special pay - $5000
Board certification pay - $2500
Additional special pay - $15,000

So the total pay is in the low $100k's.

But factor in 2-bedroom housing in the base allowance for housing and you get $2085 per month in places like San Diego or $1534 per month in Portsmouth, VA. Housing is tax-free, which is good since it's about $18,000/year or so for most places.

There's also about $2000 for subsistence allowance, which is also tax-free.

If you're deployed in a combat zone, a huge chunk of your pay is made tax-free.

If you're a GMO with no specialty training, then your incentive special pay would be zero and your variable special pay would go down to $1000 or so per year. So the difference might be $28k-43k or so per year without residency.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

I'm not in the Navy, but from what I gather if you do HPSP you have a high likelihood of doing a GMO tour before residency. If you sign up for FAP, you will at least get to do residency and then enter the Navy as a residency-trained doc. You could then receive the incentive special pay ($20k-36k) for your specialty and board-certification pay (if you pass the boards), which is about $2500.

It seems like the best advice is not to do it for the money. If you're already decided on joining the Navy, then it might be better to go FAP and choose your own specialty.

Right. I know not for the $$. However, I also wanted to see which program would be ideal in terms of service give-back vs. how much I would get (bang for the buck so to speak) from the military.

 

[TopSecret]

Right. I know not for the $$. However, I also wanted to see which program would be ideal in terms of service give-back vs. how much I would get (bang for the buck so to speak) from the military.

The best bang for the buck is to avoid becoming a GMO. It seems that the best way to avoid this is to do residency first, even if the Navy is transitioning to having more board-certified docs in that role.

Just from reading the posts here it looks like board-certified docs have a greater likelihood of working at San Diego, Portsmouth or Bethesda, which are pretty decent locations. If you sign up for HPSP, you could end up in a Marine billet or sent off to Iraq, Afghanistan or to some ship and have little to no support when you encounter a challenging case. This seems to be a source of anxiety and frustration for a lot of GMO's.

 

[VassarLiberal]

Isn't it also possible that you might get commissioned as an O-4 if you're residency trained?

 

[TopSecret]

Isn't it also possible that you might get commissioned as an O-4 if you're residency trained?

Yes, it's possible. However, I asked a recruiter and I was informed that I would go in as an O-3 if I sign, even though I'm a US medical grad of an allopathic school, board-certified in a medical subspecialty with fellowship training, was on faculty at a medical school and have no malpractice history whatsoever. I also took the AFQT and scored in Category I when it was administered as a pop quiz at the local recruiting station. So, your mileage may vary. A 60-something orthopedic surgeon was commissioned as a LCDR (O-4) a year or two ago so I guess they're fairly selective.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Yes, it's possible. However, I asked a recruiter and I was informed that I would go in as an O-3 if I sign, even though I'm a US medical grad of an allopathic school, board-certified in a medical subspecialty with fellowship training, was on faculty at a medical school and have no malpractice history whatsoever. I also took the AFQT and scored in Category I when it was administered as a pop quiz at the local recruiting station. So, your mileage may vary. A 60-something orthopedic surgeon was commissioned as a LCDR (O-4) a year or two ago so I guess they're fairly selective.

This is negotiable, its just easier for your recruiter to bring you in as an O3. You should clearly be an O4 accession.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

So, is the consensus to go in via FAP then, to avoid GMO status?

 

[TopSecret]

This is negotiable, its just easier for your recruiter to bring you in as an O3. You should clearly be an O4 accession.

I was wondering what it would take to be an O4. There's really not much else unless it's simply a matter of doing a good job in the service and being promoted the usual way or having decades of experience as Dr. Krissoff.

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=33539

 

[TopSecret]

So, is the consensus to go in via FAP then, to avoid GMO status?

Some people who sign up for HPSP have a pretty good time as DMO's (dive medical officer). But it's competitive.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I was wondering what it would take to be an O4. There's really not much else unless it's simply a matter of doing a good job in the service and being promoted the usual way or having decades of experience as Dr. Krissoff.

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=33539

Again, he is not the only one. I personally know someone who came in at LCDR and another who came in at CDR.

Demand it, ask to speak to the CO of the NRD if your recruiter can't help you.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Some people who sign up for HPSP have a pretty good time as DMO's (dive medical officer). But it's competitive.

Its minimally competitive.

 

[TheGoose]

This is negotiable, its just easier for your recruiter to bring you in as an O3. You should clearly be an O4 accession.

I was wondering what it would take to be an O4.

You should have what it takes already. Gastrapathy is just saying that it's easier for your recruiter to just throw you in as an O3...less work for him. Sounds like if you make it an issue (and you should) that O4 accession would be possible

 

[TopSecret]

You should have what it takes already. Gastrapathy is just saying that it's easier for your recruiter to just throw you in as an O3...less work for him. Sounds like if you make it an issue (and you should) that O4 accession would be possible

I suppose. I just think it'd be a little unbecoming to ask for a rank that was not earned. But I guess civilian accomplishments do count for something.

At any rate, ODS is all booked up for this year (last class is September). So I have time to think about it. It'll take about 6 months to get a commission anyway (3 months or so for background check and security clearance and another 3 months to get in as an O4 if possible). Maybe if I get a letter from a Congressman or Senator that would improve my chances of an O4 accession (if I actually deserve that rank).

 

[BigNavyPedsGuy]

Ok, so I have been contemplating joining the military. The question has been if I should join via HPSP or FAP. I'm currently a 3rd year student. I spoke with a Navy recruiter, and I would get my last years paid for, with stipend, and the 20K sign-on bonus. However, since there's no 2 for 2 plan, I'd be paying back with 3 yrs of service (in addition to 1 more with the 20K bonus). So, 20K bonus+2 yrs of tuition/stipends and give back 4 years of service. Given this situation, would it still be worth joining on via HPSP or should I wait until FAP? I know with FAP, when I enter residency, I can get however many years (45K/year) on top of civilian pay + 1 year. Which route would be best to go with? I have to make this decision really soon and any and all advice would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

Your situation looks like a no-brainer to me. If you do FAP you get more freedom to choose with less payback commitment. It doesn't make sense to join now and payback twice what you're getting.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Your situation looks like a no-brainer to me. If you do FAP you get more freedom to choose with less payback commitment. It doesn't make sense to join now and payback twice what you're getting.

Thanks. That's what I figured; however, I am having some monetary issues (unforseen) and figured maybe I should consider it sooner. But, I think I may be able to make do with my situation for the rest of the 20 months I have left and roll with the FAP.

 

[neuroprotector]

Supposedly there's also some kind of loan repayment program where they add 1 year of commitment in exchange for 40k of repayment, which you can tack onto the end of your commitment. Y'know, just to complicate matters.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Supposedly there's also some kind of loan repayment program where they add 1 year of commitment in exchange for 40k of repayment, which you can tack onto the end of your commitment. Y'know, just to complicate matters.

Really? Which program?

 

[NavyFP]

Time for my 2 cents.

Without knowing which specialty you want, I would recommend FAP in your situation.

FAP offers you a wider ability to enter the residency of your choice and enter into the military. You get paid about $70K per year on top of your civilian salary and, yes, you owe year for year plus one.

Upside - more pay. You can use the FAP money to pay down debt. You are hopefully in the residency of your choice. You owe about the same length of time, but you will spend it as an attending.

Downside - Not all residencies are eligible for FAP. FAP is typically not offered for PEDs, path, neurology, derm, and PM&R and there are fewer spots. (although they are rarely all filled.) Your time in FAP does not count towards retirement or pay longevity. It does count towards promotion though.

HPSP - Up - benefits start now. Pay as intern/resident is better than civ.
Time in intern/residency counts towards pay/retirement
Down - may or may not get desired internship (although most do),
may have to be a GMO.

HPLRP (loan repayment) - rarely financially beneficial for physicians. There are too many other bonuses which contract for time that are better.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Great advice and thanks for the pro's and con's.

I am interested in Anesthesiology, EM, or IM. If I do get into IM, I am particularly interested in being a hospitalist; however, I'm not too picky either. Do any of these 3 change things? It seems like these 3 fields are do-able for if I wish to do the FAP. Anymore thoughts from your perspective is greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Time for my 2 cents.

Without knowing which specialty you want, I would recommend FAP in your situation.

FAP offers you a wider ability to enter the residency of your choice and enter into the military. You get paid about $70K per year on top of your civilian salary and, yes, you owe year for year plus one.

Upside - more pay. You can use the FAP money to pay down debt. You are hopefully in the residency of your choice. You owe about the same length of time, but you will spend it as an attending.

Downside - Not all residencies are eligible for FAP. FAP is typically not offered for PEDs, path, neurology, derm, and PM&R and there are fewer spots. (although they are rarely all filled.) Your time in FAP does not count towards retirement or pay longevity. It does count towards promotion though.

HPSP - Up - benefits start now. Pay as intern/resident is better than civ.
Time in intern/residency counts towards pay/retirement
Down - may or may not get desired internship (although most do),
may have to be a GMO.

HPLRP (loan repayment) - rarely financially beneficial for physicians. There are too many other bonuses which contract for time that are better.

 

[NavyFP]

Great advice and thanks for the pro's and con's.

I am interested in Anesthesiology, EM, or IM. If I do get into IM, I am particularly interested in being a hospitalist; however, I'm not too picky either. Do any of these 3 change things? It seems like these 3 fields are do-able for if I wish to do the FAP. Anymore thoughts from your perspective is greatly appreciated. Thank you!

You could do FAP for all 3. There are a few IM docs in the Navy who work as hospitalists, but you might end up working as a general internist from time to time.

 

[TopSecret]

http://www.med.navy.mil/sites/navmedmpte/nomi/nami/usnac2009/Documents/pcolaA 2009.ppt

You might want to look at this PowerPoint presentation. It's very informative.