necessity of forensic fellowship

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heyjack70

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Hi,

Just wondering about people's thoughts on whether a forensic psychiatry fellowship is "necessary." By necessary, I mean being able to have my own private practice and regularly take on forensic evaluations, write good reports, and be able to back up my opinion in court.

What kind of problems would I likely run in to if I don't do a fellowship?

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Like most fellowships in psychiatry, it depends on how much of your time it will be. For instance, we all see dual diagnosis patients from time to time, but a fellowship in addiction psychiatry really is not necessary unless you want to make it a primary endeavor. Some people will argue they want to do a fellowship just for the pure learning experience, and you can make that argument to.

Specific to forensic psychiatry, what do you want to do? The term "forensic evaluations" is pretty broad. Criminal competence or not guilty by reason of insanity? Malpractice? Workman's Comp? Social security? For some of these (like Social Security), they can be fairly routine evaluations which are done in volume to generate reports. Others, like complicated malpractice or NGRI, require a lot more time and effort behind the report, which will likely be scrutinized by multiple attorneys. In the latter circumstance, a forensic fellowship will likely give you the leg up in terms of your ability to write a good report and defend it. There is a monumental difference between someone with added qualifications in forensic psychiatry and a non-trained individual when you first start doing cases (usually). Granted, you can learn on the job, but you run the risk of putting out a crappy product for a little bit, which will hurt your ability to generate business later (lawyers have long memories).

With all that said in my wall of text, the quality of the program makes a big difference too. Almost every program sends you to AAPL and you get the forensic review course. Not every one gives experience with testifying, large volumes of reports, etc. My bottom line is, if you really want to devote a substantial amount of time to forensic work, go to a good fellowship and just eat the 1 year of not working. If you want to dabble in it, its really a coin toss of how you want to spend your time.
 
Hi,

Just wondering about people's thoughts on whether a forensic psychiatry fellowship is "necessary." By necessary, I mean being able to have my own private practice and regularly take on forensic evaluations, write good reports, and be able to back up my opinion in court.

What kind of problems would I likely run in to if I don't do a fellowship?

Unlike some of the sillier fellowships in psychiatry which aren't real fellowships, there is some advantage to doing a forensics fellowship and not doing it(although I wouldnt neccessarily call any 1 year thing a 'fellowship') will limit your opportunities to some extent
 
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I've repeatedly heard that a forensic fellowship can get you a big pay bump, but I've never seen any data to back that up.
 
A few thoughts...

Within the past several years, AAPL has been pushing for leaders/politicians to pass legislature that allows ONLY board certified forensic psychiatrists to testify. Interestingly enough, there's a large pool of older psychiatrists that have the board certification, but did not complete the fellowship. Essentially, they would get a pass.

I once saw a study that showed that CAP fellowship was the only statistically significant fellowship in psychiatry that almost guarantee a bump in pay. Unfortunately, there are a number of forensic programs out there that are essentially jail psychiatry fellowships and not truly forensics. There is the potential, however, if you develop a name in a small to medium market, to make very significant money. I rotated with an attending in a small market in which he was one of only three forensic psychiatrists. He was the "go to" guy. He was so busy that each day he would discuss cases over the phone with various local law firms and have to turn down retainers just to review the case to determine if they were worthy for trial. I never knew what his exact income was, but I suspect that it was around $1 million/year.

On the other hand, I once attended the American Board of Forensic Psychiatrists (different from AAPL) annual conference, and there were a number of forensic psychiatrists that essentially worked in the various jail systems and made a nice living, but nothing more than the local community psychiatrist.
 
you don't think interventional cards, electrophysiology, neurophysiology, pain, sleep, EUS, urologic oncology etc are "fellowships"? many/most fellowships are 1 year.

Remember, you're talking to vistaril. Anything beyond the first three words of your post was unnecessary.
 
you don't think interventional cards, electrophysiology, neurophysiology, pain, sleep, EUS, urologic oncology etc are "fellowships"? many/most fellowships are 1 year.

Cardiology *is* the fellowship....something like IP or interventional is just something tacked on to the fellowship imo.
 
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My own two cents, for what it's worth, which is probably, well, two cents, is that if you want to do criminal forensic work like competency evaluations, sanity evaluations, diminished capacity evaluations, etc etc -- then a forensic fellowship is very helpful. You learn the laws in your state regarding these concepts, and follow case law that further modifies the way the courts in your jurisdiction view these issues. You get practice / supervision by more experienced forensic psychiatrists as you do the evals and write the reports. You get to meet judges and lawyers in your jurisdiction, talk to them, see how they think of these concepts.

But if you want to do civil forensic work, then I'm not so sure that a forensic fellowship is needed. I don't think it would hurt, but I don't know that it's needed. For example, if you were a respected expert in ECT safety and wrote ECT guidelines, regularly performed ECT, etc etc, AND you are someone who is likable and can explain to a jury in easy to follow terms what ECT is and how it works and safety issues involved, then a lawyer might want to retain you for a ECT related malpractice case to give an opinion on whether the doctor in the lawsuit met the standard of care... the lawyer might not care, and actually probably won't care in that circumstance if you've had a forensic fellowship.
 
My own two cents, for what it's worth, which is probably, well, two cents, is that if you want to do criminal forensic work like competency evaluations, sanity evaluations, diminished capacity evaluations, etc etc -- then a forensic fellowship is very helpful. You learn the laws in your state regarding these concepts.[/QUOTE]

How hard is it for a forensic psychiatrist who does this type of work to move out of state (or take an out or state job immediately after finishing training)?
 
I don't think it's hard, but you have to learn a new system and network within it. I recently had an offer to leave my current state and move to a neighboring state, and the statutes there are different. But I was not too concerned, because I knew a number of local attorneys and would have been able to learn the new system in time. The reality is that you would have to learn the language as it pertains to the statutes in the state where you move, and most states now post their statutes online.

Back to the OP's Q: If you are called to the stand to testify, one of the first things they do in my state is "qualify the expert witness". This is much easier to do with the credentials. However, as pointed out earlier, if you are testifying about an area where you have practice expertise, I am not sure the credentials matter as much.
 
Unlike some of the sillier fellowships in psychiatry which aren't real fellowships, there is some advantage to doing a forensics fellowship and not doing it(although I wouldnt neccessarily call any 1 year thing a 'fellowship') will limit your opportunities to some extent

what is not a "real fellowship"
 
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It's been some time since this discussion ended. What's the current climate of the forensic psychiatry market? I've heard some fellows say attorneys are specifically looking for board-certification now. Is this true? What do you guys think the future holds?

Forensic psychiatry is not my primary interest, however, I'd really like to do the work in order to diversify my practice.
 
It's been some time since this discussion ended. What's the current climate of the forensic psychiatry market? I've heard some fellows say attorneys are specifically looking for board-certification now. Is this true? What do you guys think the future holds?

Forensic psychiatry is not my primary interest, however, I'd really like to do the work in order to diversify my practice.
the overwhelmimg majority of psychiatrists who do this kind of work are not forensically trained. I have not heard of attorneys looking for board certified forensic psychiatrists. for civil forensics work, they are looking for someone who is an excellent clinical psychiatrist and can lay claim to having expertise in a particular area. for criminal forensic work there are specific kinds of evaluations that it would be hard to get experience in if you had not been forensically trained (for example insanity defense cases) and you would be severely hampered by lack of experience and training in those instances. otherwise there is nothing stopping you do this.

that said, forensic work is not something to dabble in. you should have it make up a consistent and significant piece of your practice (at least 10%) if you are going to do it properly. you certainly do not need to be fellowship trained to do disability cases, worker's comp, psychic injury, malpractice, fitness for duty etc. If fact, for malpractice cases it is an advantage to not be forensics trained or have done a lot of them, because you are there as an expert as clinical psychiatry and don't want to look like a hired gun. In practice, it is often very experienced clinical psychiatrists who are doing forensics work, not people fresh out of residency.

However at a minimum you would do well to attend the forensic review course before the AAPL meeting, and read Melton's Psychological Evaluations for the Courts, and possibly Rosner's Principles and Practice of Forensic Psychiatry (the new edition is supposed to be coming out this year).
 
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splik's advice is good, particularly the idea that most foresnic-work is done by non-forensically trained people. It depends on your location.

The challenge with this is that you then don't know if you're providing poor services or not. One of the benefits of a fellowship is that you get exposed to LOTS of other forensic psychiatrists and their reports and many of them are truly awful. Some come from forensic fellows, but the majority I've seen have come from folks without the training. Evaluating someone, writing a report, and testifying as an expert is very different from most of psychiatry residency. So you can quickly see who hasn't been trained in forensics when they get deposed or get on the stand. They can get taken apart.

A few other comments.
I have not heard of attorneys looking for board certified forensic psychiatrists. for civil forensics work, they are looking for someone who is an excellent clinical psychiatrist and can lay claim to having expertise in a particular area.
Kind of. When attorneys look for someone, they are not looking specifically for a board certification in forensics. They are looking for expertise. Some attorneys may just look for clinical accumen, like you describe, but those attorneys are in the minority, in my experience.

Attorneys don't look for psychiatrists with expertise in a particular clinical area, they look for psychiatrists with expertise in testifying in a particular clinical area. When you field calls from attorneys, you will get a few questions about your clinical expertise, and they'll ask for your resume, but they'll also want a list of how often you've testified about a particular area. A forensic fellowship gives that experience and reassures attorneys. Many attorneys have had their case fall apart because they get some expert in a subject area that gets absolutely taken apart on the stand because they lack the training.

you certainly do not need to be fellowship trained to do disability cases, worker's comp, psychic injury, malpractice, fitness for duty etc. If fact, for malpractice cases it is an advantage to not be forensics trained or have done a lot of them, because you are there as an expert as clinical psychiatry and don't want to look like a hired gun.
This isn't true. Malpractice cases are the ones in which attorneys most want a polished forensic psychiatrist. Malpractice cases are very high dollar and there is a lot at stake. For criminal cases, you typically have the lowest barrier for entry, since it's relatively low impact for all the players involved (other than the defendant and victim/victim's families). For malpractice cases and civil cases, there is a lot riding on it financially for the players involved (and their lawyers).

The "hired gun" thing is often misunderstood. You definitely don't want to be one, but that's easily avoided. Hired guns really come in two flavors: a) psychiatrists who primarily just do forensic work and little clinically and b) psychiatrists who always testify for one side. Most successful forensic psychiatrists avoid this reputation by spending a lot of time maintaining a clinical practice and taking care in selecting cases so that they don't always testify for one side.

But no successful attorney is going to actively rule out forensic psychiatrists for civil cases. Bad strategy.

You can skip a forensic fellowship and do some foresnic work. The question is how much you want to do, how good you want to be at it, and how much of a priority it is for you. It's pretty similar to other fellowships: there is very little hard and fast rules prohibiting you from doing anything you want in psychiatry, but there are some very good clinical and strategic reasons for doing so.
 
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This isn't true. Malpractice cases are the ones in which attorneys most want a polished forensic psychiatrist.
I went to Phil Resnick's workshop of being an malpractice expert witness at the APA meeting last year (was similiar to what he went over in the forensic review course but more fleshed out) and he cited malpractice work as the main exception to needing experience. He said that actually the more malpractice work you have done, the easier it is to discredit you as a witness, and the more clinical experience you have and the less expert witness/forensic experience the better. where I am the malpractice work is almost exclusively done by very senior non-forensic psychiatrists (who have basically retired but continue to work full time and often have a distinguished research track record).

I don't think you get actively ruled out (I am sure Resnick still does malpractice work despite this), but he made a convincing case that most people are interested in forensic training for this. I think that forensic psychiatrists are more likely to be comfortable doing this kind of work of course. but that's a different thing.
 
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Thanks for everyone's advice. I'm finishing residency after having taken the AAPL review course, participated in mock trials as expert witness, spend time doing CST at local jail, and participating in a forensic risk assessment team.

I'm starting a private practice after graduation in psychotherapy. However, how do I begin to get basic forensic work? I've read "Developing a Forensic Practice" by W. Reid and he mentions most work is referral-based.

Any other tips? Would it be excessive to sent practice announcements to local attorneys and/or judges?

Thanks in advance!


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However, how do I begin to get basic forensic work?
What is "basic" forensic work?

Criminal stuff? Splik's advice to get on court panels is good. Most places will be happy to take you, but you'll earn a good bit less than you would devoting the same amount of time to clinical work and the majority will be competency to stand trial cases. If you do good work, you might build beyond that with enough time.

Civil stuff? Are you interested in filling out disability paperwork? Pretty easy to set up a shingle doing that (and the work will come... plenty of mind-numbing, soul-searing work).
I've read "Developing a Forensic Practice" by W. Reid and he mentions most work is referral-based.
Yup. That's the rub. And that's the challenge.

Among the biggest benefits of fellowship is getting established in a referral network. You complete fellowship, then faculty and mentors in your fellowship will make referrals to you (assuming you're good). This is how you get meatier and more satisfying (and better paying) cases. Most of my quality cases post-fellowship came from two sources: referral from folks in my fellowship network and work I'd done for past attorneys. I'm at the point where I only take cases that interest me and have time for. When I exceed my bandwidth, I refer to past fellows and faculty and folks in my network. This isn't unusual. And even with referrals from some fairly well-known folks, I still have to jump through hoops and "apply" for better cases (lawyers will read through past depositions I've done and contact clients and opposing counsel to hear how I did in court, etc.).

This is more of a pitch for doing a fellowship for folks considering doing it or not doing it. I've heard Resnick's pitch about who you don't need a fellowship for malpractice cases (like Splik refers to), but in my experience, this is for the niche. The folks who don't have a fellowship who do the civil stuff are either older than dirt and established themselves before there was a fellowship or are... mature and have developed a long career in a specialized area that they almost exclusively testify about.

So if you don't do a fellowship, you can definitely still pick up cases (particularly if you're in an underserved area). If you want to do civil cases, build an expertise in a particular area. If you want to do suicide malpractice, work on an inpatient unit, get an academic affiliation, and do some publishing on the topic. Saying you worked on an inpatient unit in residency isn't going to impress too many lawyers. Saying you do outpatient medication management isn't going to be too big a value add (except for the sleeping-with-the-patient case, which are pretty slam dunk). You need to distinguish yourself to sell yourself to a jury or the right lawyers.
Any other tips? Would it be excessive to sent practice announcements to local attorneys and/or judges?
Yes. That would be spam. Get on some panels and do a bunch of CST cases (they tend to be fixed bit and several hundred a pop). Fight the temptation to just knock out templated garbage because your only stream of referrals is going to come from the work you do for these lawyers. So put out really quality product (averaging much less than you'd earn from moonlighting) and in a few years, some of these public defenders and assistant DAs will potentially go into private practice or corporate law. If you did great work, they'll remember you and potentially see if you're interested in slightly better work and you build from there.
 
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Hi there! It's been several years since this post has been updated, just reaching out to see what thoughts are about the necessity of forensic fellowship in today's world? Thanks in advance.
 
Same. The trend will likely be MORE in favor of needing to do a forensic fellowship since there are so many of them. The folks grandfathered into board certification without fellowship are getting long in the tooth.

You can carve out something for yourself without the fellowship, particularly if you are interested in primarily testifying a few times a year in a very small area that you have done a lot of research. But if you're looking to build a regular forensic practice that you hope to be a substantial part of your life, I couldn't make many good counterarguments to doing the fellowship.
 
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