need help choosing psychology or psychiatry

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The truth that many avoid treatment doesn't negate that some seek it and are willing to pay for it.

and the question then becomes, is there enough "some" to go around to the overflowing field of grad students?
The answer is usually no, unless you're really really good and have a highly established network. Yet this takes a decade to achieve.

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That's on the high end of what I'm aware of, but I don't think it's impossible that someone would gather a wealthy clientele in a place like nyc or la and be able to charge that. I'm in the deep south, and I know a pp -iatrist who charges $250 cash for 1 hr assessment (don't know about ongoing therapy). That's not how much it ultimately costs the patient however, if they're able to independently get reimbursed by insurance (it's still a lot of money).

A 1-hour assessment is totally different than a year or two of weekly therapy. Plus, if the doc charges $250, but the client pays what the insurance reimburses, that does not mean the doc gets the full $250. They'll take what the insurance pays. If the client pays cash, then they may get that or negotiate a lower rate. Again, that's just the first assessment!

Depends on your insurance. And some people are very able and willing to pay that much for good therapy. You may be neglecting how many mediocre or even bad therapists there are out there. People are willing to pay to get better.

Well, you're talking about wealthy people, then. People with insurance or who will personally pay $350 per session for weekly therapy are NOT the norm in any sense. I don't care who the therapist is; if you are an average American, you barely make $350 a week in salary, let alone have that kind of expendable income to pay on weekly therapy. It has nothing to do with being "willing." Maybe in your circle of doctors, but not the average American worker.
 
And as Stigmata and I are always at odds, i respectfully disagree that psychologists get more respect than psychiatrists in primary care settings. That appears to be his experience working in a rural community with limited psychiatric resources that he gets respect. Which is wonderful of him. But not reflective of my working in various hospital settings (academic, VA, county), outpatient clinics (county, academic, VA, correctional).

I've worked in academic medicine, private residental/in-patient, and the VA system, and (unfortunately) more than a few times I've seen psychiatry be actively avoided. The most common critique I've heard is that it is a hassle to get a straight answer in writing about a case. During my time in the VA system, primary care psychologists (and neuropsychologists on consult) handled all of the evals for competency, suicidiality, etc. because we would provide objective data and document everything. Our psychiatrists (and Psych NPs) were almost exclusively doing out-pt meds management across campus, so trying to get a consult let alone solid documentation for something like competency was a lost cause.

I'm currently in academic medicine (with a Top 5/10 Psych Dept), and I've seen much of the same active avoidance. I personally have had good experiences with the attendings, though they are usually doing research, and the residents have been very hit and miss. The biggest rub I see now is all of the polypharmacy (without supportive research). I work with a non-psychiatric population, and our referrals tend to be very specific, and most of the time the result of the consult is a bunch of unsupported polypharmacy. Giving a patient 2 anti-psychotics, 2 benzos (scheduled & PRN), and a sleep aide doesn't work if you need your patient conscious. Admittedly the referrals are tough, but that is why they go to Psychiatry Dept, because the simple stuff can be handled by our residents. I've been lucky to find a solid resident who has seen a number of my patients, though whenever he rotates off service it is a crapshoot. I've also seen a hesitancy to make a definitive diagnosis (malingering and conversion disorder, in particular), which is a personal pet peeve of mine.

Why? I suspect a little is that physicians can and do use common language, since we have the same foundation of training. Further psychiatrists can teach non-psychiatrists how to manage psychiatric problems, and how to prescribe better. Psychologists ARE often a welcome part of a multi-disciplinary team, but offer supplementary support in terms of testing (less common and less useful in a primary care setting), or offering psychotherapy (which takes away burden from other providers but doesn't necessarily help the physician get better at their job).

I take personal offense at the implication that psychologists don't "necessarily help the physican get better at their job". I know at my hospital our psychologists/neuropsychologists are faculty members at the medical school and regularly teach medical students/residents, present at grand rounds, etc. We also run the largest (multi-million dollar) research grants and mentor medical students, residents, and attendings interested in the academic side of healthcare. We present at Grand Rounds, and often are tapped to speak on topics that are more central to special populations.

A good percentage of my time as a fellow is teaching the medical resident with learning how to better manage challenging patients. We also do in-service trainings, debriefings after critical incidents, informal talks about special populations, etc. I've covered topics like: conversion disorder v. malingering v. other, differences in presentation between delirium and dementia, impact of TBI on executive functioning, managing enmeshed families, behavioral interventions when working with MR patients, working with 1st generation non-fluent immigrants, etc.
 
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No, it's true. How do you help someone who thinks they already know what they need to know about the entirety of your field?

You can't help them, though you try and work with other professionals who are more humble and recognize that other professions have something to offer. I've found the most support and interest from: Neurology, PM&R, Neurosurgery, Radiology, and surprisingly...Pathology. I'm thankful that our Neurologists don't attempt to give any neuropsychological assessments, but instead they have working relationships with neuropsychology. It is surprising what can get done when one group doesn't assume to know everything about another group.
 
Sure, in pockets. But, that's not translating to the "real" world. Reimbursement rates have dropped in double digit percentage points multiple times in the last few years. It's crazy.

Agreed. There was just a post on one of the list-servs about the Medicare cuts over the next 5 years. The cuts are NUTS. I'm definitely worried about the profession, which is why I have always had a Plan B for if/when it stops being worthwhile to work in the field.

As for what is "real world", I am hoping to stay insulated from some of it, but realistically it will still impact my work (RVU expectations, competitor's rates for outside work, etc).
 
Agreed. There was just a post on one of the list-servs about the Medicare cuts over the next 5 years. The cuts are NUTS. I'm definitely worried about the profession, which is why I have always had a Plan B for if/when it stops being worthwhile to work in the field.

As for what is "real world", I am hoping to stay insulated from some of it, but realistically it will still impact my work (RVU expectations, competitor's rates for outside work, etc).

This is very scary for students 8( Would I be considered foolish for entering into the field because I was following my dream, knowing the direction the field is going? The three medical doctors I know said if they could do it over again they wouldn't go to medical school, and if mental health is my interest to simply become a NP or PA. Ugh just when I was confident in my decision of obtaining a PhD over an MD. I love the field but I would hate to struggle in the future or have to work all day and all week away from my family in order to provide a decent life for my family. If I wasn't already bald I would pull my hair out trying to figure out what to do after my bachelor's.

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I take personal offense at the implication that psychologists don't "necessarily help the physican get better at their job". I know at my hospital our psychologists/neuropsychologists are faculty members at the medical school and regularly teach medical students/residents, present at grand rounds, etc. We also run the largest (multi-million dollar) research grants and mentor medical students, residents, and attendings interested in the academic side of healthcare. We present at Grand Rounds, and often are tapped to speak on topics that are more central to special populations.

A good percentage of my time as a fellow is teaching the medical resident with learning how to better manage challenging patients. We also do in-service trainings, debriefings after critical incidents, informal talks about special populations, etc. I've covered topics like: conversion disorder v. malingering v. other, differences in presentation between delirium and dementia, impact of TBI on executive functioning, managing enmeshed families, behavioral interventions when working with MR patients, working with 1st generation non-fluent immigrants, etc.

I was responding to posts about psychologists being the preferred go-to people in primary care, preferred Over psychiatrists. I'm not talking about teaching hospitals or medical schools.
 
People can still make a decent living, and some a very good living, but the cost : benefit continues to worsen. You will put in the better part of a decade to make a salary not that much more than someone with a BS in Engineering and a few years of experience. However, you will probably have more flexibility, and as long as you attend a halfway decent program and avoid large loans...you can still have a comfortable career.

I figured I'd rather do something I love and make less money, than be one of the millions of people who loathe their jobs/lives. It's been ~9 years since I decided to leave my cushy job/career, and I can comfortably say that I made the right decision. There were multiple times during my training when I had second thoughts, but at the end of the day....I still love what I do.

Many of my friends are physicians, and the more senior ones have lamented about the state of healthcare. Some in private practice have had to work longer hours because of falling reimbursements and ridiculous malpractice insurance. Some closed their practices and went back to taking shifts at a local hospital, but they still do fine economically. Younger physicians have a worse cost : benefit than those in practice for 20 years, but they will still be fine. I think most people in clinical psychology will probably be okay, they just need to have realistic expectations and make well-informed decisions.

The vast majority of people don't like what they do, but most never do anything to change their situation. I hated my career, and it still took me a few years to finally leave. I cringe thinking about the money I left on the table, but I know I'm much happier now. I can always go back to that life, but I could not always go back to do this. I still plan on being successful, it will just take a lot longer.
 
A 1-hour assessment is totally different than a year or two of weekly therapy. Plus, if the doc charges $250, but the client pays what the insurance reimburses, that does not mean the doc gets the full $250. They'll take what the insurance pays. If the client pays cash, then they may get that or negotiate a lower rate. Again, that's just the first assessment!



Well, you're talking about wealthy people, then. People with insurance or who will personally pay $350 per session for weekly therapy are NOT the norm in any sense. I don't care who the therapist is; if you are an average American, you barely make $350 a week in salary, let alone have that kind of expendable income to pay on weekly therapy. It has nothing to do with being "willing." Maybe in your circle of doctors, but not the average American worker.

This is why few psychiatrists do therapy. It is more financially rewarding to stick with meds.
 
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