Need help from the ENT people

[MrObvious]

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I have quick question...


I have always had an interest in ENT, but I don't have a lot stuff to put on a resume to prove it. I'm beginning my 3rd year and I'm slowly realizing that I may be screwed when it comes to extracurricular activites, research, etc.

A lot of people in my class volunteer at free clinics and what not, but I never had the desire to. For the people who do it because they truly want to help people, I tip my hat. But I have little respect to those who do it to just help themselves. To do it now would simply be resume padding which I don't like to do.
Whenever my schedule says "vacation," I take a vacation. If I don't have to be at the hospital, I go out with friends or whatever. Am I barking up the wrong tree pursuing ENT without tons of EC stuff, research, etc? I guess I'm naive, but I thought you just go to class, learn the material, and do what you're told and everything will be fine.

 

[durphy]

You're OK, you can get there both ways. If you're a solid student, you don't need alot of extracurriculars. I didn't have very many, but I had solid numbers. These guys are surgeons, they're not too interested in fluff but they do respect wel-roundedness, a quality I think that permeates throughout the ENT world. Research is great as long as it is legitimate and you had something to do with it and know what the heck you're talking about when asked about it.

Bottom line - don't fret about extracurriculars. In such a competitive field, those are pretty low among the things they look at when it comes to selecting residents, at least in my opinion.

Good luck.

 

[MrObvious]

Hey, thanks for the advice.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

I agree with your point about not trying to pad your CV with some fluff you don't really care about just to impress some PD, as most PDs are well tuned to seeing through BS on a resume.

If your're going to do research, do it because you're interested in the topic. Don't do it so that you can put a few lines on your CV saying that you "participated" in some research project you barely understand. This means taking time to actually do it, and not just showing up a few hours during the week in your last year in a rush to get "research experience" on your application. If you can get a couple of papers published in peer-reviewed journals where you are first or second author that would be good, or at least a presentation or two at a national conference. But note it takes *time* to collect data for a paper or conference presentation, thus it this is not something you can rush in a few weeks. Good luck.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Originally posted by ArrogantSurgeon
If you can get a couple of papers published in peer-reviewed journals where you are first or second author that would be good, or at least a presentation or two at a national conference.

What a silly comment.

The majority of research that medical students do (and some residents) does not lead to "a couple" of 1st or 2nd author publications in major journals or even "at least" a presentation at a national conference -- at least not one they always present.

The point of doing research in medical school is to get your feet wet and see the academic sides of medicine. If you latch on to research early in medical school -- great! If you start it late in medical school, so what?!

I agree that you should do research because you want to do it, but I also think that doing research will also make you more competitive -- even if you don't want to do it.

Regardless of whether you wash beakers, fill up test tubes, or end up being the first author on the paper, be honest about what you did, show interest in what you did, and know about the research.

Not everyone starts at the top; some actually start at the bottom and work their ways up.

 

[DuneHog]

Neutropenia - While I've enjoyed a lot of your posts about ENT application etc, I disagree with your suggested approach to research. I think your opinion may refelect your unique experience (as I recall you did a lot of basic science research before medical school and had a ton of pubs) and may be less applicable to the majority of medical students. For most medical students, the primary goal for doing research is to improve his or her CV and chances at matching in their specialty/program of choice. Publications and/or presentations are much easier to advertise to programs because you can easily put them on a CV. It is a lot harder to put down "worked in Dr. Soandso's lab" on your CV, even if your experience was more meaningful than that of other people with publications.

As a medical student you have to watch out for people that will use you as slave labor in the name of doing research. If you plan on graduating in four years and did not begin your research prior to medical school, it is important to make sure your time is spent productively on a project that has a good chance of being published. Washing test tubes is not a good use of your time, and you will not work your way up to doing anything meaningful by the time you are ready to apply for residency. For that matter, meaningful basic science research is out of reach for most traditional medical students with no prior basic science research experience.

It certainly is possible to get first author publications as a medical student, but your papers will likely be clinical studies or case reports. I started doing research after my first year of medical school and was first author of two papers in peer-reviewed journals. I don't think that I was just lucky. It is a matter of choosing the right projects and putting in some extra time on the weekends and during breaks from clinical responsiblities. Also, I think in the end you will learn more and have a more meaningful experience if you play a large role in a smaller project rather than doing scut in Dr. ManyRO1's world-famous lab.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Originally posted by DuneHog
For most medical students, the primary goal for doing research is to improve his or her CV and chances at matching in their specialty/program of choice.

Oh, I agree. But, I've yet to hear one of my attendings (or any attending that interviewed me) say that doing research is something that above all is something to be done to improve my application.

We're probably arguing different aspects to reach the same endpoint. I'm sure you'll agree that getting a foundation in research is important and that the majority of students who do it don't produce anything like 1st authored articles in peer-reviewed journals.


Publications and/or presentations are much easier to advertise to programs because you can easily put them on a CV. It is a lot harder to put down "worked in Dr. Soandso's lab" on your CV, even if your experience was more meaningful than that of other people with publications.


Well, that's what requires annotations when you jot that job down on your application. Furthermore, it behooves the applicant to expound upon that job/research experience.


As a medical student you have to watch out for people that will use you as slave labor in the name of doing research.


Agreed, but as I said, not everyone has the luck of finding a lab that will permit the student to do something significant.

 

[c diddy]

aloha
can anyone please tell me approximately how many electives (in ent) applicants generally do prior to applying? i've read in a couple of other specialty posts that some do 1 or 2. does this hold true for ent, and are there any other specific fields that ent program directors prefer applicants to have rotated through? thanks a lot.
c

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Originally posted by c diddy
aloha
can anyone please tell me approximately how many electives (in ent) applicants generally do prior to applying? i've read in a couple of other specialty posts that some do 1 or 2. does this hold true for ent, and are there any other specific fields that ent program directors prefer applicants to have rotated through? thanks a lot.
c

At least one. Most do two. Some do three. More than three I think offers you diminishing returns.

I did three because I was torn about going to two different places, so I wanted to see them first-hand.

The more you do, the more exposure you get and the more opportunities you get to get letters and see if ENT (or whatever) is what you want to do.

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Some directors like you to have done a surgical sub-I. Others have promoted ophthalmology, plastics, and ICU. Still others say neuroradiology, dermatology, and neurology can be beneficial
However, this is time you can't get back. If you decide you don't like the field, you've got to start over again.

 

[c diddy]

thanks a lot for the reply.
if you have a second, i have one more question. i've browsed through the ent posts on this forum in the past, and i got the impression that ent was a more "laid-back" surgical field. i also browsed the residency program reviews on scutwork.com, but after reading them i couldn't see exactly what was meant by laid-back. although not very many reviews were posted, it seemed as though the hours put in by ent residents are just as high as those in ortho and urology, if not more. are they mistaken, am i mistaken, or is there some other explanation? thanks again.
c

 

[DuneHog]

IMHO, ENT has aquired its reputation for being laid-back for a couple of reasons. The first is that the personality of ENTs is reputed to be more mild-mannered than that of general surgeons. Personally, I've found this to be true in a lot of cases, but of course there are always exceptions. The other reason is that while many general surgeons continue to work very hard once they finish residency, the average otolaryngologist has a somewhat better lifestyle once they get out into practice. The reason for this is that although during residency ENTs take care of a lot of sick patients that require long hours to care for, the majority of private practice ENTs send advanced head and neck cancer cases to the local university and avoid facial trauma call if at all possible. This means that most of what private practice ENTs do is outpatient surgery on a relatively healthy patient population, which results in a more "laid-back" lifestyle.

As far as the hours go in residency, most otolaryngology programs have the longest hours and the most call during PGY 1-3 years. The PGY 2 and 3 years are often as busy or busier than the general surgery internship is. However, things mellow out as a PGY4 or 5 when call is backup from home at most programs.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Places are always different. Keep that in mind.

Where I train, the ENT residency is just as busy if not busier than some of the general surgery services (I would say not busier than transplant or vascular).

I take call 1-2 times more per month, and they are BUSY calls. A lot of calls to the Peds ED to r/o PTAs and a lot of calls to the ER with airway distress. Oh, has anyone mentioned that the MICU and any other medical service will call you anytime there's a hint of bleeding around a fresh tracheotomy site?

I agree with DuneHog; otolaryngologists tend to be more laid back. I'm not sure why this is. We run a pretty big head and neck service, and those guys are sick. 1/3 to 1/2 of our patient population ends up in the ICU. Maybe there's just more solidarity. Maybe it's the notion that most of us will go on to private practice and do bread and butter type stuff. I don't know. It's just something we've observed.

 

[c diddy]

thanks for those responses. great insight.
also, seeing as your schedule in ent is extremely busy, when do you find time to read? how heavy is the reading load in ent in your opinion, or in comparison to any other field(s) you know about? currently i am a 3rd year and i haven't done surgery yet, but i would imagine that surgery is learned most effectively through experience- please correct me if i am wrong. i would like to know how often you sit down and read in addition to your work schedule. thanks again. also- people in any other surgical fields please chime in as well regarding your reading requirements.
c