PhD/PsyD Need Perspective/Advice/Maybe Reality Check

[baernaise]

Hi all,

New to the forums, have had a fun time reading some random threads, and now looking to your infinite wisdom to help me gain some perspective/advice.

My Scenario:
- Undergraduate degree in Marketing, 2010, 3.61 GPA
- 10 Years of Professional experience in Business Development for digital advertising, solid growth in career path
- no passion for my career, no satisfaction from my job other than the paycheck, which is mid 100's at 60/40 split for salary and bonus (so salary is low 100s, bonus brings it to just over mid, but that part is not guaranteed)
- realized over the past year of my life, due to personal experiences, that I'm really interested in psychology. Primarily conscious/unconscious, addiction, decision making, clinical
- have an idea in my head to try and do a 180 in my career. I would want to be a Clinical Psychologist with my own practice. That's the goal
- I realize this means Ph.D. I realize you need research experience and somewhat of a psych background to even be considered for a program
- I've signed up for some introductory Psych courses at a local college to try and get started on this potentially far-fetched plan, to add to my B.S.

So my questions:
- am I crazy?
- would my earning potential really be much better with a Ph.D in Clinical Psychology than a terminal degree with an aim to do therapy?
- what are the key things I should be doing now to bolster my chances of getting into a Ph.D program?

Thanks for anyone who has read this far, and who lays some knowledge on me. I appreciate your time.

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[WisNeuro]

So my questions:
- am I crazy?
- would my earning potential really be much better with a Ph.D in Clinical Psychology than a terminal degree with an aim to do therapy?
- what are the key things I should be doing now to bolster my chances of getting into a Ph.D program?

Thanks for anyone who has read this far, and who lays some knowledge on me. I appreciate your time.

Crazy? No, plenty of people change careers, for a variety of reasons.
Earning potential? You are most likely looking at a pretty big net loss in earning compared to your current career when you look at lost wages during grad school and the median income. Also greatly depends on how many years you need to become competitive for PhD programs.
What should you be doing now? Getting involved with psych research, any way that you can, even if it's unpaid volunteer hours.

 

[ClinicalABA]

...
So my questions:
- am I crazy?
- would my earning potential really be much better with a Ph.D in Clinical Psychology than a terminal degree with an aim to do therapy?
- what are the key things I should be doing now to bolster my chances of getting into a Ph.D program?

Thanks for anyone who has read this far, and who lays some knowledge on me. I appreciate your time.

1) Are you crazy? You could be, but not necessary because of your desire to change fields!

2) In regards to earning potential, you're statistically unlikely to earn more than you currently do. Your current numbers aren't totally out of the picture for a psychologist depending on things like specialization, geographic location, type of practice, but mid-career median salaries for psychologists are ~80K-90K. You are, however MANY years aware from such a salary. You'd be looking at minimum 5-6 years of grad school (including pre-doc internship) until you'd earn the doctoral degree, and then another 1-2 years of post-doc supervised experience before being licensed eligible. Building the practice, insurance paneling, etc. would take some more time, with a lot of variability in how long it would take and how much you could make. During this 6-8 year time frame, you would not be able to work a "real job." If you went to a fully funded Ph.D., you might get a stipend of ~20K per year. Pre-doc internship might be slightly higher, but still in the 20s. Post-Doc maybe in the 40s. Going the professional school route (tuition ~100-200K total) would be a financially imprudent endeavor, particularly if you'd need to finance any of it through loans. Regardless of the path, at best the outcome would be- many, many, many lean years down the road- a job where you MAY make the same you are making now. Modal outcome is that you would make less (an not recoup any of the expense of training, including opportunity costs). Long story short, don't do this for the money. Do it because it can be a good, interesting, fun, and fulfilling career.

3) Seems that research experience is the way to increase you chances of getting into a funded Ph.D. program. This should be your goal- the training will be cheaper and- on the whole- better than your other options (e.g., professional schools or other programs where you'd have to pay tuition). Remember that most people with a Ph.D. in clinical psych are practicing clinicians, even though there is a large focus on the consumption and production of research during training.

If you are really into it and don't need to care about the financial setbacks (either temporary or long term), go for it! I love what I do, have a lot of autonomy and flexibility, and get paid well for it. It did, however, take awhile to get here. You should also look into licensable masters level clinical degrees, as these might allow you to meet your professional goals with a lot less expenditure of time and money.

 

[deleted343839]

- am I crazy?

No, a desire to do something completely different is not uncommon in any career stage.

I once had this conversation with an old friend from school days who wanted to become a psychologist. He did not pursue this. Instead he advanced in his career and changed locations, which seemed to bring him enough peace of mind to stay the course. He also realized that his earning potential in his field was higher, and with a higher ceiling, than most paths in psychology.

On the other hand, I want to graduate school with a few people who were coming into psychology from careers in other fields that were skilled and reasonably well compensated. As far as I know, they are all still psychologists and doing fine for themselves.

- would my earning potential really be much better with a Ph.D in Clinical Psychology than a terminal degree with an aim to do therapy?

This is a fair question but not an easy one to answer. What you can collect for services as a PhD versus, say, an LCSW depends on your local market (or the market in whatever place you aim to practice). You also have to factor in tuition costs and years of being out of the labor market, which will differ between master's and PhD training.

The conventional wisdom is that if you want to hang a shingle and have a private practice, then business savvy is as important as the letters behind your name when it comes to bringing in patients. In this respect, your background is a strength. Will you get the same depth and breadth of training with a master's degree? Of course not. Does that matter? That depends on your goals.

- what are the key things I should be doing now to bolster my chances of getting into a Ph.D program?

Right now? Learn more about the field - you seem to have limited background knowledge. Then, if you choose to proceed, research experience.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'll second everything everyone above me has mentioned.

One addition RE: earning potential relates to how many hours you're currently working for that income. If you're getting mid-100's with 40 hours/week, you're not likely to push significantly past that as a psychologist. It's possible, but not the modal outcome. If you're working more than that currently, you might be able to push past it as a psychologist working similar hours.

 

[PsyDr]

It's not crazy, but the idea has some significant natural consequences. Your tolerance for those consequences is really the deciding factor.

Ballpark:

You're 32. You're making $200k. You do some prereqs. Say you finish those in 2 years and do the GRE at the same time, and get into your #1 choice that cycle. Enter grad school at 35. Median length of Phd/psyd was 5-7 years last I looked. Finish coursework at 40, best case. You move across the country and internship is finished by 41. One year post doc to get licensed is finished at 42, likely in another geographical location. License in the next 6-12 months taking the EPPP and passing without problems. by 43 You open your own practice immediately in wherever you want at 43-44. Assuming Phd, the median student debt is $75k. Make the median for early career which is like $80k for clinical psych according to APA survey data, which is admittedly 5ish years old.

Potential complications in those include not getting in your first time, getting into an expensive program with $200k+ of debt load, not matching for internship, doing a specialty with 2 year fellowship requirement, failing the EPPP on first go round, getting sick, whatever. There is also a (small) rate of people who fail out, or are pressured to drop out.

Opportunity cost without any complications is a minimum of $1.6MM + whatever growth you'd get from retirement and taxable account stocks. If you're planning on a family, there's the entire thing of kids, when to have them, under what circumstances, etc. If you're married, there's the entire idea of how your partner would react to moving across the country at least once.

Lifestyle would go from a gross income of around $15k/month to about $5k/month ($80k, less federal taxes). Retirement would be put off by a minimum of 10 years, with substantial lifestyle changes.


If this is simply a factual choice, do not do it.

If it is an emotional choice, you need to determine if the emotion is actually worth that amount.

EDITED: because I'm exhausted and can't math now. @Jon Snow can have a field day with this data point in his PhD vs PsyD arguments.

 

[Ollie123]

Other than psyd r adding 5-7 to 35 and getting 37, I agree with his post.

Maybe he was basing it on PsyDr work hours? 5-7 years worth of work sounds pretty reasonable to knock out in that time span.

 

[Sanman]

Maybe he was basing it on PsyDr work hours? 5-7 years worth of work sounds pretty reasonable to knock out in that time span.

Well, this is true. He may be both Chuck Norris and Batman. Rumor has it, PsyDr doesn't sleep, he waits.

 

[Sanman]

OP, how experience do you have with actual clinical work (as a patient, student, volunteer, etc.)? It sounds like you have an interest in the ideas rather than the realities of day to day work. I'm curious how far in the process you are (just daydreaming at work or already signed up for pre-req courses).

 

[PsyDr]

Maybe he was basing it on PsyDr work hours? 5-7 years worth of work sounds pretty reasonable to knock out in that time span.

It’s pretty easy to figure out when I’ve worked over 14 days straight....

 

[R. Matey]

OP, how experience do you have with actual clinical work (as a patient, student, volunteer, etc.)? It sounds like you have an interest in the ideas rather than the realities of day to day work. I'm curious how far in the process you are (just daydreaming at work or already signed up for pre-req courses).

Kinda coming at this from the same angle: I’m curious how you might feel in getting involved with like organizations that promote mental health or wellness. It’s not uncommon for people to find meaning outside their day job. With the risks involved, it’s something worth considering.


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[baernaise]

Thank you all for your replies! Super helpful and insightful. I sort of knew what I was going to hear, but wanted to hear it from the source itself and not my self doubt.

I can't figure out how to quote your replies, but:

Sanman: I'm involved in AA and other addiction based groups, but other than that, certainly more into the ideas than the practical work. That is why I wanted to reach out here, to understand what the reality is, since its such an investment to start down the path.

I envy you all who figured out what you wanted to do early enough to put so much investment into accomplishing it. My mistake was not seriously exploring career options prior to and during college, and not getting my ADHD addressed to actually put enough thought into, really, anything! But, I've heard that the ADHD has likely been helpful in my business career...not sure how, but, if it works it works, right?

Thanks all. You're great.

 

[Sanman]

Thank you all for your replies! Super helpful and insightful. I sort of knew what I was going to hear, but wanted to hear it from the source itself and not my self doubt.

I can't figure out how to quote your replies, but:

Sanman: I'm involved in AA and other addiction based groups, but other than that, certainly more into the ideas than the practical work. That is why I wanted to reach out here, to understand what the reality is, since its such an investment to start down the path.

I envy you all who figured out what you wanted to do early enough to put so much investment into accomplishing it. My mistake was not seriously exploring career options prior to and during college, and not getting my ADHD addressed to actually put enough thought into, really, anything! But, I've heard that the ADHD has likely been helpful in my business career...not sure how, but, if it works it works, right?

Thanks all. You're great.

I'm not sure that we've all got it figured out. Some of us more senior folks have talked about the fact that we could see ourselves doing other things, but once you have gone down such a long path there is a point of no return to some extent. That said, I don't know that many truly miserable psychologists, but the grass is always greener somewhere else.

Given your limited involvement in the field, I suggest that you get more involved in volunteer activities and narrow down your interests a bit before jumping into something as expensive and time-consuming as career change. Helping 1, 2, or even 5 people can make someone feel good. Helping 20, 50, 100 ,etc people can often leave one feeling drained or emotionally overwhelmed. Best to get those experiences for free while still making good money. Good luck with the decision!