Need resources for loan repayment/support forums

[Loansforlife]

This is more likely gonna end up a "what not to do" post and public service example of worst case scenario....

Save the judgement guys...whats done is done.

I have $350+ in loans (an interest keeps going up). Half are Federal (pre-consolidated and I am on IBR ($630 roughly monthly payment). Other are private (unconsolidated and signature loans co-signed by dad), my private monthly payment is around $1200 due to some variable interest loans, and I put myself on the extended (30 year plan) last year. Abusive first marriage to narcissist who insisted I take max amount, blah, blah.

This is my 5th year as a licensed Psychologist, employed full time at a non-profit (so yes I can do PLSF, but have been deferring Federal loans due to hardships). I make around $84,000 a year pre-tax.

My site hasn't qualified for NHSC although I have been pushing for it. Not sure I can qualify for a big re-finance due to recovering credit from past relationship.

Finally in a stable, positive relationship, and newly married. This has decreased my monthly spending as he covers mortgage etc. I pay groceries, fun, loans and my credit cards. We badly want to try for children as I am almost 40 and put off children due to financial instability (and man-child relationships). But I am struggling with the uncertainty of interest variability, inability to pay loans and afford childcare.

Is there anything I have overlooked as an option? I am considering writing to the senator who proposed $50,000 forgiveness on people with excessive loans. Navient never combines the fact I have Federal/Private to factor in what I can afford to pay. I work everyday 40 hrs a week and have previously taken a weekend job but it really burns me out. I hate the thought that I may miss out on family as a working professional who is less financially stable than someone on welfare with state assistance... I mean there is nothing for people like us that have crazy high loan payments and want to start families.

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[deleted106747]

Are there any higher paying jobs in your area, like at the VA or at an AMC?

 

[PsyDr]

Easy:

Where is all this $84k going if your spouse covers living expenses? Because $84k of “fun, credit cards”? is like having a personal chef and a several awesome vacations.

So you're either not revealing some severe credit card debt or there is a severe problem with spending. Which is arguably the same.

Advice: Completely live off your spouse's income in a bare bones existence. Contribute 100% of your take home income towards your debt. No eating out. No vacations. No nice clothes. No nice cars. No cable. No new smartphones. Live in a crappy place. You’re done in about 8 years. You can even have a kid, and do free stuff. Go look at any resident with a kid. It’s commonly done.

If the median household income in the USA is ~55k, and your spouse makes that much, you can easily afford to do it. It’ll just suck.

Or you can get a much higher paying job, work longer hours, and dedicate your present to improving your future. But that sucks too.

There’s not a magical solution. You need to pay more towards the loans. Either that comes form reduced spending, increased earnings, or both.

Talk to sofi about consolidation.

 

[StellaB]

I recommend starting here: Student Loan Borrowers Assistance Be wary of advice coming from anyone also trying to sell you something (e.g. studentloanhero). They might offer good advice, but they might not.

Have you looked into state programs for debt repayment as well as federal? And it may be a good idea to look into consolidation rather than just writing it off out-of-hand based on bad credit. Explore all the options. Think about finding a financial adviser (as long as they are a fiduciary - ASK if they are, do not assume).

 

[psych.meout]

I hate the thought that I may miss out on family as a working professional who is less financially stable than someone on welfare with state assistance... I mean there is nothing for people like us that have crazy high loan payments and want to start families.

Please don't say this, especially not to anyone who has ever lived on public assistance. Saying this while you, not including your spouse, make $84,000/year is really insulting. Yes, having debt you can't discharge through bankruptcy sucks, but you're saying that you're less financially stable than someone with a total household income of less than $20,000/year for two people. Anyone under that 130% of the poverty line would switch places with you in a heartbeat.

 

[psychstudent5]

First, look for a higher paying job with an employer that still qualifies for PSLF such as the VA or an AMC. You can get a much higher pay than 84k a year in those settings. Although PSLF will only help you with your federal loans. DO NOT consolidate or refinance your federal student loans as you will lose the ability to qualify for PSLF as well as the ability to be in other repayment programs like REPAYE, PAYE, IBR, etc.

Second, you NEED to get a higher salary. 84k is really low for a psychologist, especially one who is 5 years out. You can easily hit six figures as a psychologist. If need be, pick up a part-time position at a private practice or somewhere to bring in extra money.

Third, look into any student loan debt forgiveness programs your state offers. I know someone who paid off 100k through their state program. Federal loan forgiveness programs are not the only option. Here is a site that has complied a lot of info from different states Student Loan Forgiveness Programs by State . Please keep in mind that the site is not all inclusive. Simply use it as a good starting guide.

Fourth, as someone above mentioned, live off your spouse's salary and throw as much money to your loans as possible to either pay it off (best option) or pay it down to where it's more manageable.

Fifth, do not put the loans in deferment or forbearance, as it will increase your loans.

Sixth, get a financial adviser who is a fiduciary to help you manage how to pay the loans off.

 

[foreverbull]

You can defer or count financial hardship on $84k income plus your spouses income counted? I was making $30K on postdoc and couldn’t afford more than my rent and was told I didn’t qualify for financial hardship deferment. Perhaps you mean forbearance instead?

You have got to start paying down your federal loans ASAP if you want to qualify for pslf. Either you can consolidate just federal loans first to Get on an IDR plan for PSLF or discuss other options with a financial advisor.

Did you consolidate your private loans only and refinance them at a lower interest rate?

With your federal loans, you have to consolidate them separately via FedLoan to qualify for PSLF.

Whatever you do, don’t consolidate them all (private and federal) into one huge loan if you want the prospect of any loan forgiveness.

If you are willing to give that up, you can consolidate them all into a giant loan at a lower interest rate and pay as much as possible toward it every month (I.e. via SoFi, etc.).

I’d suggest doing some math either way and gauge your best option and talk to a financial advisor.

 

[WisNeuro]

Best bet at this point is to abandon the loans and move to Thailand.

 

[psych.meout]

Can we put this in a sticky about programs to avoid and just refer people to it any time they complain that the "old guard" is being unfair when it comes to unfunded programs?

 

[PsyDr]

Can we put this in a sticky about programs to avoid and just refer people to it any time they complain that the "old guard" is being unfair when it comes to unfunded programs?

The thing is: it was a series of bad choices. There is almost a null chance that OP lacks the basic math skills to know the solution. If OP really buckled down, he/she could solve the problem in a few years. The looking for an external cause and solution is the problem.

 

[psych.meout]

The thing is: it was a series of bad choices. There is almost a null chance that OP lacks the basic math skills to know the solution. If OP really buckled down, he/she could solve the problem in a few years. The looking for an external cause and solution is the problem.

Right, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

 

[PsyDr]

Right, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

It's the same problem. Anyone can look up the median salary of a psychologist. Anyone can look up the estimated payments. Insufficient knowledge is not the problem. That's why you get an emotional reaction to a math problem.

 

[Loansforlife]

First, look for a higher paying job with an employer that still qualifies for PSLF such as the VA or an AMC. You can get a much higher pay than 84k a year in those settings. Although PSLF will only help you with your federal loans. DO NOT consolidate or refinance your federal student loans as you will lose the ability to qualify for PSLF as well as the ability to be in other repayment programs like REPAYE, PAYE, IBR, etc.

Second, you NEED to get a higher salary. 84k is really low for a psychologist, especially one who is 5 years out. You can easily hit six figures as a psychologist. If need be, pick up a part-time position at a private practice or somewhere to bring in extra money.

Third, look into any student loan debt forgiveness programs your state offers. I know someone who paid off 100k through their state program. Federal loan forgiveness programs are not the only option. Here is a site that has complied a lot of info from different states Student Loan Forgiveness Programs by State . Please keep in mind that the site is not all inclusive. Simply use it as a good starting guide.

Fourth, as someone above mentioned, live off your spouse's salary and throw as much money to your loans as possible to either pay it off (best option) or pay it down to where it's more manageable.

Fifth, do not put the loans in deferment or forbearance, as it will increase your loans.

Sixth, get a financial adviser who is a fiduciary to help you manage how to pay the loans off.

Thank you for this, I have been trying to drive my employer to apply as a site for NHSC and that link indicates another source WA has for primary providers.

Yeah the take home post tax is more like 55k too. I thought about doing social security evals on the weekend, it is just draining as working in a hospital requires a certain level of productivity which equates to 7-50 minute sessions daily.

Unfortunately my spouse owns his own business with very inconsistent income. Last years taxes were about 23k.....

 

[Loansforlife]

You can defer or count financial hardship on $84k income plus your spouses income counted? I was making $30K on postdoc and couldn’t afford more than my rent and was told I didn’t qualify for financial hardship deferment. Perhaps you mean forbearance instead?

You have got to start paying down your federal loans ASAP if you want to qualify for pslf. Either you can consolidate just federal loans first to Get on an IDR plan for PSLF or discuss other options with a financial advisor.

Did you consolidate your private loans only and refinance them at a lower interest rate?

With your federal loans, you have to consolidate them separately via FedLoan to qualify for PSLF.

Whatever you do, don’t consolidate them all (private and federal) into one huge loan if you want the prospect of any loan forgiveness.

If you are willing to give that up, you can consolidate them all into a giant loan at a lower interest rate and pay as much as possible toward it every month (I.e. via SoFi, etc.).

I’d suggest doing some math either way and gauge your best option and talk to a financial advisor.

84k is not take home, that is more like 55k. Yes, I believe it is forbearance. I had a bad couple years of medical issues and racked up some enormous bills. I am only recently married (2 months ago) so only my own income was ever factored in.

My Federal loans were consolidated and count for the IBR plan. The consolidation happened back in early 2000's.

I thought about refinancing the variable rates but would require a co-signer (my dad again) to be eligible due to credit.

A financial adviser might be wise...

 

[Loansforlife]

Easy:

Where is all this $84k going if your spouse covers living expenses? Because $84k of “fun, credit cards”? is like having a personal chef and a several awesome vacations.

So you're either not revealing some severe credit card debt or there is a severe problem with spending. Which is arguably the same.

Advice: Completely live off your spouse's income in a bare bones existence. Contribute 100% of your take home income towards your debt. No eating out. No vacations. No nice clothes. No nice cars. No cable. No new smartphones. Live in a crappy place. You’re done in about 8 years. You can even have a kid, and do free stuff. Go look at any resident with a kid. It’s commonly done.

If the median household income in the USA is ~55k, and your spouse makes that much, you can easily afford to do it. It’ll just suck.

Or you can get a much higher paying job, work longer hours, and dedicate your present to improving your future. But that sucks too.

There’s not a magical solution. You need to pay more towards the loans. Either that comes form reduced spending, increased earnings, or both.

Talk to sofi about consolidation.

I am fairly sure I was clear 84k was pre-tax. I am only recently married 2 months and my spouse makes between 23k-50k depending on the years business. He has $600 mortgage, low utilities (tiny house), and no debt or payments aside. Just the facts. Some of the debt is old credit cards with high interest, and higher food/medical expenses to manage a chronic condition. No new cars, gadgets, and small weekend trips in driving distance.

I am not sure if your aware but childcare costs $800-1300 monthly in my area.

Ultimately your right, I have to make more, or pay off more debt and re-budget. I am currently tackling the credit debt to raise credit to be able to consolidate. I just figured others may know things I had not thought off.

Ease up, placing myself in an unflattering light and asking for help is not easy.

 

[PsyDr]

I am fairly sure I was clear 84k was pre-tax. I am only recently married 2 months and my spouse makes between 23k-50k depending on the years business. He has $600 mortgage, low utilities (tiny house), and no debt or payments aside. Just the facts. Some of the debt is old credit cards with high interest, and higher food/medical expenses to manage a chronic condition. No new cars, gadgets, and small weekend trips in driving distance.

I am not sure if your aware but childcare costs $800-1300 monthly in my area.

Ultimately your right, I have to make more, or pay off more debt and re-budget. I am currently tackling the credit debt to raise credit to be able to consolidate. I just figured others may know things I had not thought off.

Ease up, placing myself in an unflattering light and asking for help is not easy.

I’m offering you good advice with actionable things. I’m also saying you have the basic skills to solve this if you want. But I am also saying you’re obfuscating or at least trickle truthing your situation. You asked for advice and obviously left out key information. Like that or not. I don’t care. Go to any financial advisor, they’ll do the same. And charge you.

So your combined take home should minimally be around $75k. After housing you’re left with ~$67k. Or around $5k/month. Take $500 in groceries. That’s still a LOT of cash. Subtract another $1000/month in miscellaneous. There’s still $3500/month that can be thrown at loans. Or credit cards. Or medical bills. You could also call and ask if someone would negotiate the medical bills. I could teach you about that, but I wouldn’t want to not “ease up”.

If your husband made more like $55k, those numbers are even easier.

If you’re gonna have a child and your husband only bring home $24k, then he cannot afford to be anything other than a homemaker. If he makes $55k, then that’s very doable.

Again resident physicians do this all the damn time.

 

[Sanman]

Thank you for this, I have been trying to drive my employer to apply as a site for NHSC and that link indicates another source WA has for primary providers.

Yeah the take home post tax is more like 55k too. I thought about doing social security evals on the weekend, it is just draining as working in a hospital requires a certain level of productivity which equates to 7-50 minute sessions daily.

Unfortunately my spouse owns his own business with very inconsistent income. Last years taxes were about 23k.....

As others have said, there is no secret. Dave Ramsay style rice and beans is the only other solution.

On the flip side, are you salaried or can you make more ar your job? Why are you doing 7 50 min sessions? You can do 9 40 min sessions and make more in the same time.

 

[WisNeuro]

On the flip side, are you salaried or can you make more ar your job? Why are you doing 7 50 min sessions? You can do 9 40 min sessions and make more in the same time.

Knowing billing codes is the easiest way to up productivity. Take 96116, it's an hour billing code, but you can bill it at 31 minutes. So, what to do? Easy, send patients a questionnaire that gets at all of the easy background and demo stuff, and save the interview for things you actually need to talk to them about. Better to bill that code at 30-40 minutes, than to spend 60-80 minutes for the same reimbursement. Learn what you're billing for, people, East ways to be more efficient, or structure your time to maximize it.

 

[Loansforlife]

Knowing billing codes is the easiest way to up productivity. Take 96116, it's an hour billing code, but you can bill it at 31 minutes. So, what to do? Easy, send patients a questionnaire that gets at all of the easy background and demo stuff, and save the interview for things you actually need to talk to them about. Better to bill that code at 30-40 minutes, than to spend 60-80 minutes for the same reimbursement. Learn what you're billing for, people, East ways to be more efficient, or structure your time to maximize it.

That is the code our neuropsychologist uses to bill the initial interview. Our organization reviewed the new 2019 code changes and the clinical psychologists were deemed to continue using 90791 for the initial interview @ 60 min. We then bill 90834/90837 for sessions.

 

[Sanman]

That is the code our neuropsychologist uses to bill the initial interview. Our organization reviewed the new 2019 code changes and the clinical psychologists were deemed to continue using 90791 for the initial interview @ 60 min. We then bill 90834/90837 for sessions.

Are you flat salaried though or is there a productivity bonus or incentive to see more patients?

The reason I ask is your best bet for making more money is at the job you have already gone driven to. A second job requires commute time that cuts into productive hours. If not, you may want to consider a new job with higher salary if you can handle it. I have and do make more than 84k, but that usually involves seeing more than 7 patients/day or doing mostly 90791 evals and little therapy.

 

[WisNeuro]

That is the code our neuropsychologist uses to bill the initial interview. Our organization reviewed the new 2019 code changes and the clinical psychologists were deemed to continue using 90791 for the initial interview @ 60 min. We then bill 90834/90837 for sessions.

I was using that for illustrative purposes, you can't bill 96116for a psych intake. The other poster was wondering about the inefficient billing per session time.

 

[Loansforlife]

Are you flat salaried though or is there a productivity bonus or incentive to see more patients?

The reason I ask is your best bet for making more money is at the job you have already gone driven to. A second job requires commute time that cuts into productive hours. If not, you may want to consider a new job with higher salary if you can handle it. I have and do make more than 84k, but that usually involves seeing more than 7 patients/day or doing mostly 90791 evals and little therapy.

I have a flat salary at a rehab hospital with a mental health "wing" that is owned by a larger medical corporation. Our hospital has retained 5013c designation though.

I imagine the community mental health might pay more for a Psychologist in some evaluative/supervisory capacity. I just enjoy my population and what I do here.

 

[Loansforlife]

I was using that for illustrative purposes, you can't bill 96116for a psych intake. The other poster was wondering about the inefficient billing per session time.

As I am flat salaried the billing time won't make much difference except at an organizational level. But I understand what you mean.

 

[Sanman]

I imagine the community mental health might pay more for a Psychologist in some evaluative/supervisory capacity. I just enjoy my population and what I do here.

I am sure you do enjoy the job. However, the cost of that enjoyment is that you will continue to be in debt and unable to pay of loan debt any faster if at all and missing out on the family/life I want.

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but you asked if there is anything else you can do about the debt because it may impact your ability to have a family and meet your personal goals. You have said you can/will not cut expenditures and are not willing forgo this position for one with a higher salary or take on extra work. What would you say to a client who came to you with a problem they identified, but was unwilling or unable to make any changes in their life in order to improve their circumstances?

 

[Loansforlife]

I am sure you do enjoy the job. However, the cost of that enjoyment is that you will continue to be in debt and unable to pay of loan debt any faster if at all and missing out on the family/life I want.

Not to put too fine of a point on it, but you asked if there is anything else you can do about the debt because it may impact your ability to have a family and meet your personal goals. You have said you can/will not cut expenditures and are not willing forgo this position for one with a higher salary or take on extra work. What would you say to a client who came to you with a problem they identified, but was unwilling or unable to make any changes in their life in order to improve their circumstances?

I have not said I cannot cut expenditures in this thread to my recollection. I do try and throw more money at credit debt with any discretionary income I have after basic bills. Extra work is likely a better option, or more likely as sacrificing this job would affect my eligibility for PSLF programs and I do sit above the median income salary for a Psychologist in my area. I simply was unaware of other options or programs that may be out there. It has been literally years since I was last on a forum such as this as work keeps me somewhat insulated in day to day. I appreciate the feedback people have taken the time to provide.

 

[psyc0100]

I literally made an account just to say this

The national guard/reserve offers psychologists $240,000 loan repayment, plus a bonus of $80,000 over 4 years, plus a salary of $15,000 for one weekend a month. If you did nothing else you could just join that and put 100% of it toward loans. If you combine it with say VA loan repayment, or the IHS (20k loan repayment a year) or NHSC (25k/year) you could easily have it payed down in 3-5 years. Unless for instance a majority of your loans are undergrad (i.e. private school like JHU paying 50k tuition/year) or an extended unfunded MS (which could easily set you back 75k), as all the loan repayment options I mentioned are I *BELIEVE* only for doctoral loans. With the exception of the NG bonus and salary, of course. I have 200k in loans (mostly from MS) and I plan to put 100% of national guard loan repayment, bonuses, and salary against it, while combining it with VA/IHS loan repayment and be payed off within one 4-year hitch.

 

[psych.meout]

I literally made an account just to say this

The national guard/reserve offers psychologists $240,000 loan repayment, plus a bonus of $80,000 over 4 years, plus a salary of $15,000 for one weekend a month. If you did nothing else you could just join that and put 100% of it toward loans. If you combine it with say VA loan repayment, or the IHS (20k loan repayment a year) or NHSC (25k/year) you could easily have it payed down in 3-5 years. Unless for instance a majority of your loans are undergrad (i.e. private school like JHU paying 50k tuition/year) or an extended unfunded MS (which could easily set you back 75k), as all the loan repayment options I mentioned are I *BELIEVE* only for doctoral loans. With the exception of the NG bonus and salary, of course. I have 200k in loans (mostly from MS) and I plan to put 100% of national guard loan repayment, bonuses, and salary against it, while combining it with VA/IHS loan repayment and be payed off within one 4-year hitch.

One of the many problems with betting your financial future on this is that you'd have to be eligible for service. There are legal, physical, and mental health issues that could render someone temporarily or permanently disqualified from service.

 

[WisNeuro]

One of the many problems with betting your financial future on this is that you'd have to be eligible for service. There are legal, physical, and mental health issues that could render someone temporarily or permanently disqualified from service.

I think the bigger issue is that you would be eligible for service. With no coherent foreign policy and diplomacy currently being administered via tweet, I'd say our chance of entering into armed conflicts on a whim are high in the current administration. Loan repayment isn't worth being directly involved in a pointless war IMO.

 

[psyc0100]

One of the many problems with betting your financial future on this is that you'd have to be eligible for service. There are legal, physical, and mental health issues that could render someone temporarily or permanently disqualified from service.

I personally am already in the service and have been for 10 years, just not as a psychologist yet. I think that psychologists are less likely to have the issues you mentioned. Felonies could prevent admission to a PhD program and certainly licensure, besides the fact that felons are probably underrepresented among psych PhDs. The barriers that come with physical/mental health difficulties would also be limiting factors for doctoral completion. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying they're less likely than non-PhDs.

Also if I can't do NG for whatever reason, I still plan to do IHS/NHSC or similar. When I interviewed in Alaska they said there are 17 agencies recruiting psychologists, and the pay often starts at 95-100, and the state offers 20k/yr loan repayment, so I would still have my loans paid in 5ish years.

Also I've been to war and it's super fun, and extremely financially rewarding. You get tons of extra pays, and if you are SINGLE (OP is not) you can let go of your apartment and since war zones are tax free you can save about 95% of your income (snacks, internet, and clothing are your only expenses). I could easily save about 90k cash toward loans in a war zone.

Even if you don't have loans you can throw basically all of it into a Roth TSP, "pay taxes up front" (it's a war zone so tax free) and never pay taxes on the back end either. Great success!

 

[WisNeuro]

Also I've been to war and it's super fun, and extremely financially rewarding.

If this isn't the most American thing to say in this thread, I don't know what is. Wow, just wow.

 

[psych.meout]

Also I've been to war and it's super fun, and extremely financially rewarding. You get tons of extra pays, and if you are SINGLE (OP is not) you can let go of your apartment and since war zones are tax free you can save about 95% of your income (snacks, internet, and clothing are your only expenses). I could easily save about 90k cash toward loans in a war zone.

What a totally non-ghoulish thing to say. I'm sure the people in those countries where you waged war feel the same way about it.

 

[Sanman]

I personally am already in the service and have been for 10 years, just not as a psychologist yet. I think that psychologists are less likely to have the issues you mentioned. Felonies could prevent admission to a PhD program and certainly licensure, besides the fact that felons are probably underrepresented among psych PhDs. The barriers that come with physical/mental health difficulties would also be limiting factors for doctoral completion. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying they're less likely than non-PhDs.

Also if I can't do NG for whatever reason, I still plan to do IHS/NHSC or similar. When I interviewed in Alaska they said there are 17 agencies recruiting psychologists, and the pay often starts at 95-100, and the state offers 20k/yr loan repayment, so I would still have my loans paid in 5ish years.

Also I've been to war and it's super fun, and extremely financially rewarding. You get tons of extra pays, and if you are SINGLE (OP is not) you can let go of your apartment and since war zones are tax free you can save about 95% of your income (snacks, internet, and clothing are your only expenses). I could easily save about 90k cash toward loans in a war zone.

Even if you don't have loans you can throw basically all of it into a Roth TSP, "pay taxes up front" (it's a war zone so tax free) and never pay taxes on the back end either. Great success!

You forgot the most financially rewarding from a debt perspective...you could die! Then, all your student loans are immediately forgiven! Woohoo!!!

 

[PsyDr]

I personally am already in the service and have been for 10 years, just not as a psychologist yet.

So... you’re not a psychologist. And offering career advice to psychologists.

Good call.

 

[psych.meout]

I personally am already in the service and have been for 10 years, just not as a psychologist yet. I think that psychologists are less likely to have the issues you mentioned. Felonies could prevent admission to a PhD program and certainly licensure, besides the fact that felons are probably underrepresented among psych PhDs. The barriers that come with physical/mental health difficulties would also be limiting factors for doctoral completion. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying they're less likely than non-PhDs.

And this prevalence is based on what data?

Also, I don't think you're familiar with the accessions standards:

https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodi/613003p.pdf?ver=2018-05-04-113917-883

Depressive disorder if: (1) Outpatient care including counseling required for longer than 12 cumulative months;

History of anxiety disorders if: (1) Outpatient care including counseling was required for longer than 12 cumulative months.

E.g., Having MDD with at least 12 cumulative months of treatment during, say, high school would not necessarily impact one's ability to perform in a doctoral program a decade later in their mid to late 20s, but it is definitely permanently disqualifying and requires a waiver for service.

 

[WisNeuro]

In his defense, the accessions standards rarely stop recruiters from signing people up for military service. These rules come into play far less than you would think.

 

[psych.meout]

In his defense, the accessions standards rarely stop recruiters from signing people up for military service. These rules come into play far less than you would think.

Yeah, recruiters are the used car salespeople of the military, but the standards come into play far more often than you'd think. This stuff comes up in boot camp every day, during med record reviews (e.g., dependents and spouses; civilian medical records), recruits letting it slip when talking to providers (and not realizing the dual relationships and confidentiality quirks), sheer ignorance of the accessions standards, talking about it freely after believing dishonest recruiters, etc. Hell, some branches straight up lie to recruits to get them to fess up by threatening them with criminal penalties for fraudulent enlistment/commission.

Yes, lots of people fall through the cracks and serve when they shouldn't, but quite a bit is caught.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah, recruiters are the used car salespeople of the military, but the standards come into play far more often than you'd think. This stuff comes up in boot camp every day, during med record reviews (e.g., dependents and spouses; civilian medical records), recruits letting it slip when talking to providers (and not realizing the dual relationships and confidentiality quirks), sheer ignorance of the accessions standards, talking about it freely after believing dishonest recruiters, etc. Hell, some branches straight up lie to recruits to get them to fess up by threatening them with criminal penalties for fraudulent enlistment/commission.

Yes, lots of people fall through the cracks and serve when they shouldn't, but quite a bit is caught.

In my years of training and working in the VA, doing clinical interviews and taking histories, I assure you, those "cracks" are gaping chasms.

 

[psyc0100]

So... you’re not a psychologist. And offering career advice to psychologists.

Good call.

I am a psychologist in the civilian side, I haven't finished changing my status within the guard to that. Anyway, the financial incentives exist whether or not I'm a psychologist, so my information is accurate.

And this prevalence is based on what data?

Also, I don't think you're familiar with the accessions standards:

https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodi/613003p.pdf?ver=2018-05-04-113917-883

E.g., Having MDD with at least 12 cumulative months of treatment during, say, high school would not necessarily impact one's ability to perform in a doctoral program a decade later in their mid to late 20s, but it is definitely permanently disqualifying and requires a waiver for service.

I am familiar with accession standards because I'm literally in the military. WisNeuro is right, the safeguards to prevent enlisting with physical and emotional barriers rarely come into play. Recruiters coach their recruits into how to lie, it's not hard. The vast majority of people with, say, untreated MDD etc would: a) not know; b) not get treatment if they did know; c) not say they got treatment if they did get it. When I joined the military our medical screening was done largely through group interview: they asked us to raise our hand if we had ever used OTC drugs, ever smoked, etc. No one raised their hands. We were all accepted! Hooray! Admittedly this was during Iraq when felons could join with a waiver but I doubt much has changed.

 

[forcefive17]

Yeah, recruiters are the used car salespeople of the military, but the standards come into play far more often than you'd think. This stuff comes up in boot camp every day, during med record reviews (e.g., dependents and spouses; civilian medical records), recruits letting it slip when talking to providers (and not realizing the dual relationships and confidentiality quirks), sheer ignorance of the accessions standards, talking about it freely after believing dishonest recruiters, etc. Hell, some branches straight up lie to recruits to get them to fess up by threatening them with criminal penalties for fraudulent enlistment/commission.

Yes, lots of people fall through the cracks and serve when they shouldn't, but quite a bit is caught.

There are most certainly rigid standards that the military has to follow when it comes to accession standards. However, the standards become much more lax and there are generally plenty of waivers available for folks looking to join the Medical Corps/Medical Service Corps. They have critical skills and doctors write accession standards. Lots of cost-benefit analyses when it comes to educated individuals who want to serve. In my time doing evaluations and consultation with recruiting stations, I firmly believe Medical Recruiters do the best they can for their applicants. The idea of the "used care salespeople" is wholly inaccurate. I think you're attempting to use logic that applies to enlisted members/enlisted recruiters who don't necessarily have a valuable skill and are more concerned about numbers.

I personally am already in the service and have been for 10 years, just not as a psychologist yet. I think that psychologists are less likely to have the issues you mentioned. Felonies could prevent admission to a PhD program and certainly licensure, besides the fact that felons are probably underrepresented among psych PhDs. The barriers that come with physical/mental health difficulties would also be limiting factors for doctoral completion. I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm saying they're less likely than non-PhDs.

Also if I can't do NG for whatever reason, I still plan to do IHS/NHSC or similar. When I interviewed in Alaska they said there are 17 agencies recruiting psychologists, and the pay often starts at 95-100, and the state offers 20k/yr loan repayment, so I would still have my loans paid in 5ish years.

Also I've been to war and it's super fun, and extremely financially rewarding. You get tons of extra pays, and if you are SINGLE (OP is not) you can let go of your apartment and since war zones are tax free you can save about 95% of your income (snacks, internet, and clothing are your only expenses). I could easily save about 90k cash toward loans in a war zone.

Even if you don't have loans you can throw basically all of it into a Roth TSP, "pay taxes up front" (it's a war zone so tax free) and never pay taxes on the back end either. Great success!

Psychologists who are active duty and actually performing the duties of a psychologist don't find war "fun". We see it as an opportunity to test our skills in an austere environment, which can be extremely rewarding. Sure, deployment can be financially lucrative. More often than not, though, the taxing nature of being 1 of 2 psychologists in a foreign country responsible for 2,000+ troops outweighs the financial perks.

OP, the guard and reserve do have loan repayment available. However, you must apply and qualify for it. It's not guaranteed for just signing your name on the dotted line. Currently, it sits at $250,000 by agreeing to a seven-year service commitment ($40,000/year for six years, $10,000 in the seventh with a $250,000 lifetime cap.). Accession bonus sits at $20,000 per year for 2, 3, or 4 year obligation (cap of $80,000). Again, just because one applies doesn't mean it's guaranteed until written into a contract. This money (including loan repayment) is taxed and is based on the needs of the Army. If you sign up after the beginning of the new fiscal year, it may change. Them's the facts.

 

[WisNeuro]

OP, the guard and reserve do have loan repayment available. However, you must apply and qualify for it. It's not guaranteed for just signing your name on the dotted line. Currently, it sits at $250,000 by agreeing to a seven-year service commitment ($40,000/year for six years, $10,000 in the seventh with a $250,000 lifetime cap.). Accession bonus sits at $20,000 per year for 2, 3, or 4 year obligation (cap of $80,000). Again, just because one applies doesn't mean it's guaranteed until written into a contract. This money (including loan repayment) is taxed and is based on the needs of the Army. If you sign up after the beginning of the new fiscal year, it may change. Them's the facts.

Thanks for the clarification, I thought the original post sounded a bit too good to be true. I vaguely remembered looking at the numbers on fellowship when I was considering the Med Corps. But, with no loans, the financial incentive was minimal compared to other places, and I can't stand arbitrary decision making due to somewhat arbitrary hierarchy structures.

 

[psyc0100]

Psychologists who are active duty and actually performing the duties of a psychologist don't find war "fun". We see it as an opportunity to test our skills in an austere environment, which can be extremely rewarding. Sure, deployment can be financially lucrative. More often than not, though, the taxing nature of being 1 of 2 psychologists in a foreign country responsible for 2,000+ troops outweighs the financial perks.

What I found fun about it is that I love working 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, which is a common schedule as deployed. It is the same schedule I replicated during and after graduate school. To me I love to work, including assessment/writing and seeing clients. On deployment you don't cook or clean, or even do your own laundry, you literally just work all day, every day, which is the perfect life for me. No it's not sustainable forever, but deployments aren't forever.

 

[WisNeuro]

What I found fun about it is that I love working 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, which is a common schedule as deployed. It is the same schedule I replicated during and after graduate school. To me I love to work, including assessment/writing and seeing clients. On deployment you don't cook or clean, or even do your own laundry, you literally just work all day, every day, which is the perfect life for me. No it's not sustainable forever, but deployments aren't forever.

If you want to work those kind of hours, you would make FAR more on the outside. Enough to make any loan repayment option they give you look like chump change.

 

[psyc0100]

If you want to work those kind of hours, you would make FAR more on the outside. Enough to make any loan repayment option they give you look like chump change.

Yeah I know but I actually believe in most military operations, and I especially believe in serving people with limited mental health access (which is why I discussed AK and IHS). If I wanted to go into private practice or something I would have become a banker or stock broker etc.. My MS was largely experimental, anyone with that kind of stats background could make a lot more money getting an MS and then going into I/O or business consulting or a more profitable field. My good friend was in D.C. using the stats I taught to first-year MS students making roughly 150k as a business consultant. We all know that option exists. There's this saying "if you're smart enough to go to school for engineering, you're too smart to go to school for engineering." My naive hope is that anyone smart enough to get a PhD (OP probably has a FSPS PsyD, granted) is smart enough to know they financially "should" have done something else.

 

[erg923]

1) I just gotta get this out of the way and the rest of my reply will be more constructive, hopefully. What. The. ****. Were. You. Thinking. Did you grow up rich? Like how in the hell did you rack up 350k in loans? It makes me think you've never really had your priorities set up. Let me guess, you probably (a) went out of state or to a private school for undergrad (back when school wasn't way cheaper than it is today), (b) you never worked during school and took loans to study abroad or eurotrip/australiatrip, (c) you probably worked for a little bit and then went back to school because you didn't like working and you like me) got a useless masters, (d) you went to a for-profit school for your doctorate, and (e) you married the wrong person and got divorced (divorce is a bad financial decision). Regarding marrying the wrong person, you gotta take responsibility for that AND maxing loans - I sure hope you get some therapy regarding that stuff.

2) Jesus, the sense of entitlement from your post. You god damn right you feel overwhelmed. Anyone in your shoes would. First, you're not entitled to have children. I have one right now. Guess what? They are expensive as **** (my daycare in 1300 a month), plus medical, maternity leave, plus time off when they sick. You're also not entitled to have a pity party over mistakes you made in the past. This is all debt you can get under control, but you have to do two things, and I'm not sure your willing to do that. You gotta (a) take some damn responsibility for your own life and (b) loose all sense of entitlement.

3) Have you ever tried to live an intentional life? Like, ****, seems like "bad things happen to" you a lot.

4) I think you grew up rich. Do you have any inheritance coming your way? Maybe you can pre-draw on that.

5) Why the **** do you keep deferring a your federal loans due to hardships?

6) Y'all need Jesus. And in this case, Jesus is a dude named Dave Ramsey.

7) So here is what I would do if I were in your shoes:

a) First, an 1800 dollar payment for the next 30 years really isn't that bad. But, I am saying that as an adult who generally makes sound financial decisions. However, it is about what my current mortgage payment is. So it's a house sized payment. In 10-15 years, inflation is going to make that payment seem smaller. For example, my dad bought a house in 1975 and the mortgage payment was about the size of one of his paychecks. So half of his income went to that. By 1990, he was making considerably more and the mortgage payment was the same. By 2000, the mortgage payment was chump change. No matter what you're going to have to take a long term approach here.

b) You gotta learn to hustle hard and live below your means. I have serious doubts about that, because I think you grew up at least upper middle class. Going back to the entitlement thing, you need to live like a poor person. Because, guess what, you are a poor person. For the next 20 years, you need to live like a working poor person. That means instead of buying a house you live in a trailer or condo. If you have a car payment, you get rid of that and drive $2000 dollar cars or bike to work. Get rid of your credit card and budget. Stop drinking. You only drink water from here on out. Basically, if you lean out enough, you might be able to afford a kid. But, your kid is going to have a lower standard of living than you did for a while. That's okay, it might teach them to be smart.

c) Going back to the entitlement - you're not entitled to have a job that you like. You need to hard the **** up and work because you have to. If you're not thinking about money and your bottom line every day, than you're weak. You need to make more money, son. But, because I think you don't really like working, you're gonna have a issue with that. Also, your partner needs a big boy job that has more stable income and makes more money and allows for retirement savings. 25k a year is chump change for an adult.

d) God damn, you're getting me excited for you. You're gonna become such hard son of a bee after you get past this. Soft times make soft people, hard times make hard people. But, your life is gonna change.

e) ****ing forget 40 hour work weeks and free weekends. You're gonna work as much as physically possible when not at your salaried job. I don't give a **** about burnout - you are not entitled to that feeling. Your day is going to look like this:

-Get up at 4:30am -> eat some oats with sugar and honey you steal from condiment places. **** coffee (you can't afford it). You drink water from here on out. You are are also going to have learn how to be a morning person (I bet you sleep in a lot). ****, shower, shave. Walk to work or drive (if public transpo is efficient do that).

- Get into your office by 6am and catch up on **** because you're going to schedule clients for every working hour from 6:30am to 8:30pm M,.T,W,Th.F,Sa,Sun when not at your salaried job. You're not going to schedule a break or anything. You are going to have 45-55 minute sessions. You eat lunch, pee, and write notes when fools don't show up. You're gonna also bill a no-show fee. If someone calls and says "do you have any openings" you say "yes." Every single waking hour needs to become about generating income. your lunch is boring as ****, the same pile of slop you had yesterday - beans and rice, and a cheap multivitamin.

- get home to your trailer, kiss your kid and hubby, eat and sleep and do it all again until your finances resemble those of a grown-up.

Life is going to have to seriously change. You've gotta become the most frugal, cheap bastardish, and hardcore capitalist.

Also, start trying for a baby now. You're advanced maternal age. I hope it's easy for you, but you are now a poor person. I think IVF isn't really affordable for you. Terrible **** might happen, but i'd hate for you to regret not having a kid.

Welcome to the working poor - it's unfair. But, this is the bed you've made for yourself. You can get on top of that. Stop looking for other adults to fix it for you. You're going to have fix this yourself. Government aid isn't for people like you. Take responsibility.

I almost wish I were in your shoes.

Most of this post is ridiculous.

 

[psych.meout]

1) I just gotta get this out of the way and the rest of my reply will be more constructive, hopefully. What. The. ****. Were. You. Thinking. Did you grow up rich? Like how in the hell did you rack up 350k in loans? It makes me think you've never really had your priorities set up. Let me guess, you probably (a) went out of state or to a private school for undergrad (back when school wasn't way cheaper than it is today), (b) you never worked during school and took loans to study abroad or eurotrip/australiatrip, (c) you probably worked for a little bit and then went back to school because you didn't like working and you like me) got a useless masters, (d) you went to a for-profit school for your doctorate, and (e) you married the wrong person and got divorced (divorce is a bad financial decision). Regarding marrying the wrong person, you gotta take responsibility for that AND maxing loans - I sure hope you get some therapy regarding that stuff.

2) Jesus, the sense of entitlement from your post. You god damn right you feel overwhelmed. Anyone in your shoes would. First, you're not entitled to have children. I have one right now. Guess what? They are expensive as **** (my daycare in 1300 a month), plus medical, maternity leave, plus time off when they sick. You're also not entitled to have a pity party over mistakes you made in the past. This is all debt you can get under control, but you have to do two things, and I'm not sure your willing to do that. You gotta (a) take some damn responsibility for your own life and (b) loose all sense of entitlement.

3) Have you ever tried to live an intentional life? Like, ****, seems like "bad things happen to" you a lot.

4) I think you grew up rich. Do you have any inheritance coming your way? Maybe you can pre-draw on that.

5) Why the **** do you keep deferring a your federal loans due to hardships?

6) Y'all need Jesus. And in this case, Jesus is a dude named Dave Ramsey.

7) So here is what I would do if I were in your shoes:

a) First, an 1800 dollar payment for the next 30 years really isn't that bad. But, I am saying that as an adult who generally makes sound financial decisions. However, it is about what my current mortgage payment is. So it's a house sized payment. In 10-15 years, inflation is going to make that payment seem smaller. For example, my dad bought a house in 1975 and the mortgage payment was about the size of one of his paychecks. So half of his income went to that. By 1990, he was making considerably more and the mortgage payment was the same. By 2000, the mortgage payment was chump change. No matter what you're going to have to take a long term approach here.

b) You gotta learn to hustle hard and live below your means. I have serious doubts about that, because I think you grew up at least upper middle class. Going back to the entitlement thing, you need to live like a poor person. Because, guess what, you are a poor person. For the next 20 years, you need to live like a working poor person. That means instead of buying a house you live in a trailer or condo. If you have a car payment, you get rid of that and drive $2000 dollar cars or bike to work. Get rid of your credit card and budget. Stop drinking. You only drink water from here on out. Basically, if you lean out enough, you might be able to afford a kid. But, your kid is going to have a lower standard of living than you did for a while. That's okay, it might teach them to be smart.

c) Going back to the entitlement - you're not entitled to have a job that you like. You need to hard the **** up and work because you have to. If you're not thinking about money and your bottom line every day, than you're weak. You need to make more money, son. But, because I think you don't really like working, you're gonna have a issue with that. Also, your partner needs a big boy job that has more stable income and makes more money and allows for retirement savings. 25k a year is chump change for an adult.

d) God damn, you're getting me excited for you. You're gonna become such hard son of a bee after you get past this. Soft times make soft people, hard times make hard people. But, your life is gonna change.

e) ****ing forget 40 hour work weeks and free weekends. You're gonna work as much as physically possible when not at your salaried job. I don't give a **** about burnout - you are not entitled to that feeling. Your day is going to look like this:

-Get up at 4:30am -> eat some oats with sugar and honey you steal from condiment places. **** coffee (you can't afford it). You drink water from here on out. You are are also going to have learn how to be a morning person (I bet you sleep in a lot). ****, shower, shave. Walk to work or drive (if public transpo is efficient do that).

- Get into your office by 6am and catch up on **** because you're going to schedule clients for every working hour from 6:30am to 8:30pm M,.T,W,Th.F,Sa,Sun when not at your salaried job. You're not going to schedule a break or anything. You are going to have 45-55 minute sessions. You eat lunch, pee, and write notes when fools don't show up. You're gonna also bill a no-show fee. If someone calls and says "do you have any openings" you say "yes." Every single waking hour needs to become about generating income. your lunch is boring as ****, the same pile of slop you had yesterday - beans and rice, and a cheap multivitamin.

- get home to your trailer, kiss your kid and hubby, eat and sleep and do it all again until your finances resemble those of a grown-up.

Life is going to have to seriously change. You've gotta become the most frugal, cheap bastardish, and hardcore capitalist.

Also, start trying for a baby now. You're advanced maternal age. I hope it's easy for you, but you are now a poor person. I think IVF isn't really affordable for you. Terrible **** might happen, but i'd hate for you to regret not having a kid.

Welcome to the working poor - it's unfair. But, this is the bed you've made for yourself. You can get on top of that. Stop looking for other adults to fix it for you. You're going to have fix this yourself. Government aid isn't for people like you. Take responsibility.

I almost wish I were in your shoes.

What is the point of this?

 

[mypointlesspov]

1) I just gotta get this out of the way and the rest of my reply will be more constructive, hopefully. What. The. ****. Were. You. Thinking. Did you grow up rich? Like how in the hell did you rack up 350k in loans? It makes me think you've never really had your priorities set up. Let me guess, you probably (a) went out of state or to a private school for undergrad (back when school wasn't way cheaper than it is today), (b) you never worked during school and took loans to study abroad or eurotrip/australiatrip, (c) you probably worked for a little bit and then went back to school because you didn't like working and you like me) got a useless masters, (d) you went to a for-profit school for your doctorate, and (e) you married the wrong person and got divorced (divorce is a bad financial decision). Regarding marrying the wrong person, you gotta take responsibility for that AND maxing loans - I sure hope you get some therapy regarding that stuff.

2) Jesus, the sense of entitlement from your post. You god damn right you feel overwhelmed. Anyone in your shoes would. First, you're not entitled to have children. I have one right now. Guess what? They are expensive as **** (my daycare in 1300 a month), plus medical, maternity leave, plus time off when they sick. You're also not entitled to have a pity party over mistakes you made in the past. This is all debt you can get under control, but you have to do two things, and I'm not sure your willing to do that. You gotta (a) take some damn responsibility for your own life and (b) loose all sense of entitlement.

3) Have you ever tried to live an intentional life? Like, ****, seems like "bad things happen to" you a lot.

4) I think you grew up rich. Do you have any inheritance coming your way? Maybe you can pre-draw on that.

5) Why the **** do you keep deferring a your federal loans due to hardships?

6) Y'all need Jesus. And in this case, Jesus is a dude named Dave Ramsey.

7) So here is what I would do if I were in your shoes:

a) First, an 1800 dollar payment for the next 30 years really isn't that bad. But, I am saying that as an adult who generally makes sound financial decisions. However, it is about what my current mortgage payment is. So it's a house sized payment. In 10-15 years, inflation is going to make that payment seem smaller. For example, my dad bought a house in 1975 and the mortgage payment was about the size of one of his paychecks. So half of his income went to that. By 1990, he was making considerably more and the mortgage payment was the same. By 2000, the mortgage payment was chump change. No matter what you're going to have to take a long term approach here.

b) You gotta learn to hustle hard and live below your means. I have serious doubts about that, because I think you grew up at least upper middle class. Going back to the entitlement thing, you need to live like a poor person. Because, guess what, you are a poor person. For the next 20 years, you need to live like a working poor person. That means instead of buying a house you live in a trailer or condo. If you have a car payment, you get rid of that and drive $2000 dollar cars or bike to work. Get rid of your credit card and budget. Stop drinking. You only drink water from here on out. Basically, if you lean out enough, you might be able to afford a kid. But, your kid is going to have a lower standard of living than you did for a while. That's okay, it might teach them to be smart.

c) Going back to the entitlement - you're not entitled to have a job that you like. You need to hard the **** up and work because you have to. If you're not thinking about money and your bottom line every day, than you're weak. You need to make more money, son. But, because I think you don't really like working, you're gonna have a issue with that. Also, your partner needs a big boy job that has more stable income and makes more money and allows for retirement savings. 25k a year is chump change for an adult.

d) God damn, you're getting me excited for you. You're gonna become such hard son of a bee after you get past this. Soft times make soft people, hard times make hard people. But, your life is gonna change.

e) ****ing forget 40 hour work weeks and free weekends. You're gonna work as much as physically possible when not at your salaried job. I don't give a **** about burnout - you are not entitled to that feeling. Your day is going to look like this:

-Get up at 4:30am -> eat some oats with sugar and honey you steal from condiment places. **** coffee (you can't afford it). You drink water from here on out. You are are also going to have learn how to be a morning person (I bet you sleep in a lot). ****, shower, shave. Walk to work or drive (if public transpo is efficient do that).

- Get into your office by 6am and catch up on **** because you're going to schedule clients for every working hour from 6:30am to 8:30pm M,.T,W,Th.F,Sa,Sun when not at your salaried job. You're not going to schedule a break or anything. You are going to have 45-55 minute sessions. You eat lunch, pee, and write notes when fools don't show up. You're gonna also bill a no-show fee. If someone calls and says "do you have any openings" you say "yes." Every single waking hour needs to become about generating income. your lunch is boring as ****, the same pile of slop you had yesterday - beans and rice, and a cheap multivitamin.

- get home to your trailer, kiss your kid and hubby, eat and sleep and do it all again until your finances resemble those of a grown-up.

Life is going to have to seriously change. You've gotta become the most frugal, cheap bastardish, and hardcore capitalist.

Also, start trying for a baby now. You're advanced maternal age. I hope it's easy for you, but you are now a poor person. I think IVF isn't really affordable for you. Terrible **** might happen, but i'd hate for you to regret not having a kid.

Welcome to the working poor - it's unfair. But, this is the bed you've made for yourself. You can get on top of that. Stop looking for other adults to fix it for you. You're going to have fix this yourself. Government aid isn't for people like you. Take responsibility.

I almost wish I were in your shoes.

okay buddy

 

[cara susanna]

In 10-15 years, inflation is going to make that payment seem smaller. For example, my dad bought a house in 1975 and the mortgage payment was about the size of one of his paychecks. So half of his income went to that. By 1990, he was making considerably more and the mortgage payment was the same. By 2000, the mortgage payment was chump change. No matter what you're going to have to take a long term approach here.

You realize that wages aren't keeping pace with inflation, right?

 

[psych.meout]

Sigh. Wages like never really match inflation. I should have been more clear. Since the payment is locked into today at 1800, it will still be 1800 ten, twenty, and thirty years from now. Wages don’t actually have to match inflation - real salaries just have to increase for this scheme to work out.

From APA - starting salaries have decreased and when inflation controlled it went from 64 to 60k - that sucks. But it’s not the whole story because there are more early career psychologists pulling the demand down.

So if you look at 2013 median wages it was 80k for all psychologists. In 2015, the median went up to 85k for all psychologists. So let’s use those numbers. (1800*12)/80000 is 27 percent. (1800*12)/85000 is 25.4 percent. See how that works?

Let’s say salaries increase, on average, 1k per year (this is def not keeping up with CPI inflation estimates) in 30 years the median income will 115k. There are some real issues with this thought experiment, so take it with a grain of salt. (1800*12)/115000 is 19 percent. If we double the wage increase by 2k per year, well it goes to 14 percent.

In 1995 the median psychologist salary was 56k for a historical perspective.

You also gotta stop echoing economic news you get from NPR or CNN - it just doesn’t tell the whole story. The economic indicators for college grads and high skilled labor isn’t as bleak as they’d like you to think. Get outta the liberal circle jerk a little - read a little about economics and finance. Don’t let the postmodernists at your uni ruin your critical thinking skills.

Ah, I remember you now from all the Jordan Peterson stuff.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

1) I just gotta get this out of the way and the rest of my reply will be more constructive, hopefully. What. The. ****. Were. You. Thinking. Did you grow up rich? Like how in the hell did you rack up 350k in loans? It makes me think you've never really had your priorities set up. Let me guess, you probably (a) went out of state or to a private school for undergrad (back when school was way cheaper than it is today), (b) you never worked during school and took loans to study abroad or eurotrip/australiatrip, (c) you probably worked for a little bit and then went back to school because you didn't like working and you like me) got a useless masters, (d) you went to a for-profit school for your doctorate, and (e) you married the wrong person and got divorced (divorce is a bad financial decision). Regarding marrying the wrong person, you gotta take responsibility for that AND maxing loans - I sure hope you get some therapy regarding that stuff.

2) Jesus, the sense of entitlement from your post. You god damn right you feel overwhelmed. Anyone in your shoes would. First, you're not entitled to have children. I have one right now. Guess what? They are expensive as **** (my daycare in 1300 a month), plus medical, maternity leave, plus time off when they sick. You're also not entitled to have a pity party over mistakes you made in the past. This is all debt you can get under control, but you have to do two things, and I'm not sure your willing to do that. You gotta (a) take some damn responsibility for your own life and (b) loose all sense of entitlement.

3) Have you ever tried to live an intentional life? Like, ****, seems like "bad things happen to" you a lot.

4) I think you grew up rich. Do you have any inheritance coming your way? Maybe you can pre-draw on that.

5) Why the **** do you keep deferring a your federal loans due to hardships?

6) Y'all need Jesus. And in this case, Jesus is a dude named Dave Ramsey.

7) So here is what I would do if I were in your shoes:

a) First, an 1800 dollar payment for the next 30 years really isn't that bad. But, I am saying that as an adult who generally makes sound financial decisions. However, it is about what my current mortgage payment is. So it's a house sized payment. In 10-15 years, inflation is going to make that payment seem smaller. For example, my dad bought a house in 1975 and the mortgage payment was about the size of one of his paychecks. So half of his income went to that. By 1990, he was making considerably more and the mortgage payment was the same. By 2000, the mortgage payment was chump change. No matter what you're going to have to take a long term approach here.

b) You gotta learn to hustle hard and live below your means. I have serious doubts about that, because I think you grew up at least upper middle class. Going back to the entitlement thing, you need to live like a poor person. Because, guess what, you are a poor person. For the next 20 years, you need to live like a working poor person. That means instead of buying a house you live in a trailer or condo. If you have a car payment, you get rid of that and drive $2000 dollar cars or bike to work. Get rid of your credit card and budget. Stop drinking. You only drink water from here on out. Basically, if you lean out enough, you might be able to afford a kid. But, your kid is going to have a lower standard of living than you did for a while. That's okay, it might teach them to be smart.

c) Going back to the entitlement - you're not entitled to have a job that you like. You need to hard the **** up and work because you have to. If you're not thinking about money and your bottom line every day, than you're weak. You need to make more money, son. But, because I think you don't really like working, you're gonna have a issue with that. Also, your partner needs a big boy job that has more stable income and makes more money and allows for retirement savings. 25k a year is chump change for an adult.

d) God damn, you're getting me excited for you. You're gonna become such hard son of a bee after you get past this. Soft times make soft people, hard times make hard people. But, your life is gonna change.

e) ****ing forget 40 hour work weeks and free weekends. You're gonna work as much as physically possible when not at your salaried job. I don't give a **** about burnout - you are not entitled to that feeling. Life is going to have to seriously change. You've gotta become the most frugal, cheap bastardish, and hardcore capitalist.

8) Also, start trying for a baby now. You're advanced maternal age. I hope it's easy for you, but you are now a poor person. I think IVF isn't really affordable for you. Terrible **** might happen, but i'd hate for you to regret not having a kid.

Welcome to the working poor - it's unfair. But, this is the bed you've made for yourself. You can get on top of it, but it's really going to suck. Stop looking for other adults (and the government) to fix it for you. You're going to have fix this yourself. Government aid isn't for people like you.

I almost wish I were in your shoes.

“You gotta” stop telling people what they “gotta” do as if you know anything about them. There are a ton of assumptions you’ve made here about a stranger on a somewhat anonymous forum. I don’t even let my dad talk to me like this. Weird post.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

Who's Jordan Peterson?

You literally commented on a thread about Jordan Peterson at least a dozen times. See the attached pic for one comment.