Need some advice. Making a critical decision now.

[Phil Woods]

Hi,

I'm not planning on lurking on these boards so I'm going to tell you where I'm right now at and get some advice on which path to take.

Being that I just told you that I won't be lurking here, I would appreciate it if the trolls don't give me their "advice" because I'm not on here to debate. Just want facts so I can move on. Thanks.

I just got accepted into an MS program that has a DO linkage. Upon successful completion of this program, I will get a guaranteed spot in the DO class. I also have an acceptance from St. George's for August. Now that I have the DO masters acceptance, I am going to 99.9% take that unless I am convinced otherwise. I know how SGU works, I have tons of friends that have gone down that path. I know a lot don't succeed and it's really a tossup as to whether or not you will make it out in four years and then match. I'll do it if it's my last resort but as long as I have something that can keep me stateside, I'm going to keep trying here.

Here's what I need some advice on. I have a 3.3 sGPA. My cumulative is going to be calculated low because I have some pretty bad semesters from way back when I first started at college and just didn't care. With AMCAS or AACOMAS, I would need to do a lot of GPA rehabiliation which does not make much sense from a time and money perspective. The MS program did not grade average so I met their cutoffs.

My biology, anatomy and physiology, and micro courses are all A's and I feel very comfortable with that material. I'm going to be very real with you here. I BS'd my way through Gen Chem I and II and hated the way those classes were taught at my school. I probably learned something but I honestly had no idea what was going on in Gen Chem II other than the memorization and application of random formulas. I could not understand what we were trying to accomplish in that course other than finding a way to weed out the pre-meds. I did not come away with the "big picture" from that course sequence. Orgo, I just took a B and C respectively and I'm calling it a day with that sequence as well. Didn't learn a thing and that course was just all over the place from day 1. My lab journal saved me for that course. I took algebra physics I and II and I just memorized whatever problems I needed to and put them down on the test. A few concepts made logical sense but I did not care for much else. The engineering students in our class seemed much more passionate about the material. I don't plan on applying buoyancy principles and trying to understand whether or not a giant polar bear will sink if it sits on a piece of wood in the middle of a lake.

Anyway, this DO program appears to be intense as I have to meet a GPA cutoff of 3.5. The curriculum is the first year DO program minus OMM and physical diagnosis. I'm posting this in pre-allo because I want to know if those pre reqs correlate to performance in the medical sciences or if I should just be happy I have a spot that is going to eventually lead to a US medical school acceptance and right now I have a clean slate.

I should note I have a 494 MCAT and the MCAT score is not a condition of acceptance into the MS program nor is it a requirement for the DO linkage. I just need to get the 3.5 and pass a comprehensive exam. I'm not sold on whether the MCAT predicts USMLE or COMLEX performance and that is why I do not want to retake it. I suppose if you get a high MCAT score, you most likely will get passing or high board scores but I think that has more to do with your individual preparation for each test.

I don't know where on the COMLEX or USMLE do you have to calculate problems like I was subjected to in chem, orgo, and physics. I admittedly hated those courses and I want to know if I should just consider them done and focus on moving on right now or if I should be telling myself that if you hate those courses, you will hate medical school and you need to take a step back and evaluate this decision.

I guess help me to understand how much different the medical school curicculum is different compared to how the undergraduate requirements are set up. Looking for some "realness" here not your bias because you "got A's in orgo." I have the chance to become a doctor now and I don't want to throw it away but I also don't want to start something that won't produce a positive outcome. If the prereqs don't matter anymore, just let me know and I'll take that masters acceptance for August and won't look back.

Thanks

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[canquito]

A lot of threads I've lurked in have the repeating theme that ugrd courses can be crammed or aced if you put in some effort whereas in med school, you learn to learn. I've yet to reach that point, but if I were you, I'd go with the MS-DO linkage, maybe speak with current students and possibly see a specialist to be sure that a learning disability isn't lurking about.

With that in mind, I personally think you should reconsider your mentality. It sounds to me that you easily fall into the trap of "ugh why does this matter, I don't need to know this. I'll be happy with the next thing." This can be a problem if you are, say, learning OMM or going on a clerkship you have no intention of practicing in the future.

From what you say, you have the SMP and admission rolled up in one nice package. Congrats! Maximize this opportunity and redefine yourself.

 

[Phil Woods]

A lot of threads I've lurked in have the repeating theme that ugrd courses can be crammed or aced if you put in some effort whereas in med school, you learn to learn. I've yet to reach that point, but if I were you, I'd go with the MS-DO linkage, maybe speak with current students and possibly see a specialist to be sure that a learning disability isn't lurking about.

With that in mind, I personally think you should reconsider your mentality. It sounds to me that you easily fall into the trap of "ugh why does this matter, I don't need to know this. I'll be happy with the next thing." This can be a problem if you are, say, learning OMM or going on a clerkship you have no intention of practicing in the future.

From what you say, you have the SMP and admission rolled up in one nice package. Congrats! Maximize this opportunity and redefine yourself.

Thanks,

No learning disability. I'm just frustrated by the process. At one point, I honestly felt like I was a chemistry major and I have no interest in chemistry.

I'm grateful for this opportunity but I also haven't gone through medical school so I can only infer that basic sciences are nothing like the prerequisite courses which means that you essentially are starting from a clean slate.

I personally would choose another career outside of healthcare if the academic journey mirrored the prereq work. Not because I don't want to do the work but more so that the work might be for another candidate.

Organic chemistry made no sense to me at all and I have no shame in saying that. I just want to make sure that because orgo didn't make any sense that path physio and pharm will not have the same outcome. I doubt it but just want to be sure.

 

[canquito]

I personally would choose another career outside of healthcare if the academic journey mirrored the prereq work. Not because I don't want to do the work but more so that the work might be for another candidate.

This suggests a lot, seriously reflect on this.

As to the academic content, I hope that the relevant material will be reinforced and integrated into the pre-clinical curriculum rather than ignored. N=1 but a neuro-opthalmologist attending I volunteered with would gently pimp his MS2's with questions ranging from gen chem/biochem to clinical guidelines.

I'll admit orgo made little sense to me too, but that course is generally a rite of passage (or hazing. Who knows?). Plus, a lot of the reagents and compounds in that course are toxic but I digress. In my case there were nuggets of true learning in orgo because it was relevant to medicine (e.g. why crown ethers are used in metal poisoning, photoisomerization of retinol, etc.). Rather than being apprehensive, embrace the challenge and use the MS year to figure things out. As Henry Ford said, "whether you think you can, or you think you can't - you're right."

 

[deleted480308]

Thr DO path is infinitely safer here

But frankly your low mcat predicts higher odds that you don’t pass boards anyway. Without a major attitude adjustment I would suggest a different career

 

[Goro]

Chances of being a doctor via SMP: >90%
Via SGU: <50%

How much are you a gambling man?

 

[Phil Woods]

Once I got the master's acceptance, which I was pretty sure I would get, I wasn't planning on attending SGU so my question is not about whether to take the master's or SGU route. I know the master's route is smarter. SGU will always be a last resort until they post a match list with no matches.

What I wanted to know was how much the pre-clinical curriculum correlates with the prereq work since I wasn't a fan of the chem, orgo, and physics part of it. That's all.

You're right, this master's program is an audition of sorts for medical school and I would probably be working harder in this program than basic sciences because there is a minimum B+ GPA requirement as opposed to just a passing score. In other words, I have to score higher than the DO students who were accepted with higher stats.

Just curious why everyone seems to think MCAT predicts board scores? I say the MCAT is merely a test to level the playing field. Some of these BS/MD accelerated programs don't even require the MCAT or just require that you take it. Are these students going to fail board too? Just curious because this master's program did not ask me about the MCAT. They were more concerned with the GPA and my reason for wanting to become a doctor and why DO. The only other thing they told me was that if I don't meet the GPA requirement, I would have to reapply through AACOMAS and would need to retake the MCAT at that time to remain competitive. It's a risk but one I am going to take.

I've seen the theme here on SDN that MCAT predicts success but is that bias or do you have some solid data to back that up? Because if you have something solid to back that claim up, I'd sure like to see it. Don't your medical school exams predict board scores?

 

[Excavate]

The AAMC releases information each year describing the correlation between MCAT score and success in medical school:

https://www.aamc.org/download/462316/data/mcatguide.pdf

There are also numerous papers describing the correlation between MCAT score and USMLE performance. Here are some of the free articles.

Undergraduate Institutional MCAT Scores as Predictors of... : Academic Medicine

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

Do MCAT scores predict USMLE scores? An analysis on 5 years of medical student data

The purpose of this study was to determine the associations and predictive values of Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) component and composite scores prior to 2015 with U.S. Medical Licensure Exam (USMLE) Step 1 and Step 2 Clinical Knowledge (CK) ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Prediction of Students' Performances on Licensing... : Academic Medicine

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

So yes there is a positive correlation between MCAT score and USMLE performance and you are more likely to struggle. Does that mean you can't do well on USMLE exams with a low MCAT score? No, that is within your control.

 

[Phil Woods]

The AAMC releases information each year describing the correlation between MCAT score and success in medical school:

https://www.aamc.org/download/462316/data/mcatguide.pdf

There are also numerous papers describing the correlation between MCAT score and USMLE performance. Here are some of the free articles.

Undergraduate Institutional MCAT Scores as Predictors of... : Academic Medicine

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

Do MCAT scores predict USMLE scores? An analysis on 5 years of medical student data

The purpose of this study was to determine the associations and predictive values of Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) component and composite scores prior to 2015 with U.S. Medical Licensure Exam (USMLE) Step 1 and Step 2 Clinical Knowledge (CK) ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Prediction of Students' Performances on Licensing... : Academic Medicine

An abstract is unavailable.

journals.lww.com

So yes there is a positive correlation between MCAT score and USMLE performance and you are more likely to struggle. Does that mean you can't do well on USMLE exams with a low MCAT score? No, that is within your control.

I appreciate that but those are extremely old studies dating back to the 90's and between 2 or 3 schools. That doesn't inspire much confidence in the process. I was thinking if you had type of stats from individual schools that demonstrate that their highest scoring students are those students who entered with the highest stats.

 

[Dr. Let 'er Buck]

I took algebra physics I and II and I just memorized whatever problems I needed to and put them down on the test. A few concepts made logical sense but I did not care for much else. The engineering students in our class seemed much more passionate about the material. I don't plan on applying buoyancy principles and trying to understand whether or not a giant polar bear will sink if it sits on a piece of wood in the middle of a lake.

Those buoyancy problems are weird. I'll never forget getting one asking "how high will a basketball of XXX volume, held under XXX feet of water then released, climb out of the water". I sit here now and still role my eyes.

However asinine the questions, this is all part of the game we must learn to play. Med school seems like an absolute mind-screw and ADCOMS are tasked with making sure those they bring in can keep sane enough to graduate and become physicians. With that as their goal, regardless of how crazy it seems, their tactics work. Something like 98% of people who get accepted into a medical school will go on to become practicing physicians. I can't think of any other intensive degree program with such success rates.

The other thing which helps their predictive assessment is GPA and MCAT. As was posted above, there is a strong correlation to MCAT and board performance.

So, to perform in medical school = getting a decent MCAT = showing your moxie in undergrad = doing well in your classes. The value in knowing how to calculate the buoyancy of a polar bears testicles isn't found in the calculation, but in what it leads to (medical school). It seems that you cannot see value beyond superficial levels.

Quite bluntly, to force yourself to understand physics or orgo or whatever = being prepared for the MCAT = statistically better performance on board exams. You admit to BS'ing your way through gen-chem, then not seeing value in ochem or physics. And a 494 is indicative of deep issues in understanding the sciences. Your attitude seems all wrong when compared to those I see going through and succeeding in medical school.

I totally think you are making the correct decision to do DO and linkage after SMP, but you REALLY have to start approaching this from a different mindset. There are no shortcuts. If there were, I would have exploited them. Going to the Caribbean would not somehow make your attitude and performance translate into an easier time with the USMLE stuff. Go do this linking program and WORK YOUR BUTT OFF!!!! Play the game and understand why it is the way it is. It sucks....I know...... but there is no other way.

 

[Dr. Let 'er Buck]

I appreciate that but those are extremely old studies dating back to the 90's and between 2 or 3 schools. That doesn't inspire much confidence in the process. I was thinking if you had type of stats from individual schools that demonstrate that their highest scoring students are those students who entered with the highest stats.

This is kind of the idea I was just talking (typing?) about. The data may be old but the research is solid, and more modern studies back it up. Those are usually behind paywalls however. Instead of thinking that you might be the one to beat the system or show them that they're wrong or stats are incorrect, you should be focusing on how you can succeed WITHIN the system. Don't be the grumpy dude who is claiming that a rigged system is stupid for XXXXXXXX. Instead, be the one who spit in the system's eye and succeeded despite their games.

You won't be allowed to stay in the game if you don't play by the rules. It hurts, but it's the truth.

 

[Phil Woods]

This is kind of the idea I was just talking (typing?) about. The data may be old but the research is solid, and more modern studies back it up. Those are usually behind paywalls however. Instead of thinking that you might be the one to beat the system or show them that they're wrong or stats are incorrect, you should be focusing on how you can succeed WITHIN the system. Don't be the grumpy dude who is claiming that a rigged system is stupid for XXXXXXXX. Instead, be the one who spit in the system's eye and succeeded despite their games.

You won't be allowed to stay in the game if you don't play by the rules. It hurts, but it's the truth.

I think you or other have missed my point. I am playing by the rules. I got into some program. The concern I had was whether or not the prereq experience mirrors the pre-clinical experience. Then I wanted to know if there was any data to correlate undergraduate performance metrics and medical school success.

Based on what I'm being told, the answer is along the lines of nobody really knows. Well OK then. We shall see where I fall into the mix.

Thanks.

 

[deleted480308]

I think you or other have missed my point. I am playing by the rules. I got into some program. The concern I had was whether or not the prereq experience mirrors the pre-clinical experience. Then I wanted to know if there was any data to correlate undergraduate performance metrics and medical school success.

Based on what I'm being told, the answer is along the lines of nobody really knows. Well OK then. We shall see where I fall into the mix.

Thanks.

You don’t listen well. Mcat does have some correlation with usmle success

 

[Excavate]

1. Yes, prerequisite experience generally mirrors pre-clinical experience
2. Yes there is data correlating undergraduate performance and medical school success as posted

Goodluck dude! That MS program is a great opportunity, but they can be tough. I have a good friend that recently failed out and decided to pursue a different calling in life.

 

[Dr. Let 'er Buck]

I think you or other have missed my point. I am playing by the rules. I got into some program. The concern I had was whether or not the prereq experience mirrors the pre-clinical experience. Then I wanted to know if there was any data to correlate undergraduate performance metrics and medical school success.

Based on what I'm being told, the answer is along the lines of nobody really knows.

Wellllllll, I see it a bit differently. I see that folks have posted data regarding undergrad performance (and MCAT) and board scores. My responses were more of an attempt to get you to look at this from a different angle.

What is looks like from the outside is you asking if any correlation exists, being told that it does, not liking the correlation (by calling into question the age and scope of the studies), then saying that we don't understand what you are asking.

I think we do. And that your success is going to require a MASSIVE shift in your attitude toward this process. You said you BS'd you way through undergrad courses and just memorized a couple formulas in others. You then got a poor MCAT. Instead of focusing on getting better grades (like it seems most successful applicants/matriculants do), you questioned the data and acted like it was incorrect. This DO course has guaranteed acceptance after you pass the SMP work it looks like. I see the key for you as being able to pass the material. BS'ing your way though and memorizing a couple formulas will not ingratiate you to the staff.

We're not saying this stuff to be mean or somehow belittle you. It's because you seem to not be hearing the information which contradicts what you want. Which is in and of itself, a concerning prospect. Put pride aside and look at the data objectively.

 

[Phil Woods]

1. Yes, prerequisite experience generally mirrors pre-clinical experience
2. Yes there is data correlating undergraduate performance and medical school success as posted

Goodluck dude! That MS program is a great opportunity, but they can be tough. I have a good friend that recently failed out and decided to pursue a different calling in life.

Did you not read what I said about trolls responding?

 

[Phil Woods]

Wellllllll, I see it a bit differently. I see that folks have posted data regarding undergrad performance (and MCAT) and board scores. My responses were more of an attempt to get you to look at this from a different angle.

What is looks like from the outside is you asking if any correlation exists, being told that it does, not liking the correlation (by calling into question the age and scope of the studies), then saying that we don't understand what you are asking.

I think we do. And that your success is going to require a MASSIVE shift in your attitude toward this process. You said you BS'd you way through undergrad courses and just memorized a couple formulas in others. You then got a poor MCAT. Instead of focusing on getting better grades (like it seems most successful applicants/matriculants do), you questioned the data and acted like it was incorrect. This DO course has guaranteed acceptance after you pass the SMP work it looks like. I see the key for you as being able to pass the material. BS'ing your way though and memorizing a couple formulas will not ingratiate you to the staff.

We're not saying this stuff to be mean or somehow belittle you. It's because you seem to not be hearing the information which contradicts what you want. Which is in and of itself, a concerning prospect. Put pride aside and look at the data objectively.

I think you're trying to do here is try to get me to see your point of view on the matter and that is not what I was asking. I'm not asking you to accept my point of view either.

I'm asking if preclinical coursework is similar to undergraduate coursework. I.e will there be structures and mechanisms in biochemistry or 30 minute physics problems in physiology. I wasn't looking for a lecture on attitude lol. I interviewed with two program directors who carry MD's after their name. If I needed a lecture, I'm sure I would have gotten one on interview day.

So back to my question, if you're able to offer some insight into the preclinical part of medical school, I'm still all ears but please refrain from "you're attitude is this or you're attitude is that." You don't know me.

Thanks

 

[Phil Woods]

You don’t listen well. Mcat does have some correlation with usmle success

You don't research well. Try it sometime.

 

[deleted480308]

...please refrain from "you're attitude is this or you're attitude is that." You don't know me.

You don't research well. Try it sometime.

We know you well enough.

Good luck sir/ma'am.

 

[Dr. Let 'er Buck]

I think you're trying to do here is try to get me to see your point of view on the matter and that is not what I was asking. I'm not asking you to accept my point of view either.

I'm asking if preclinical coursework is similar to undergraduate coursework. I.e will there be structures and mechanisms in biochemistry or 30 minute physics problems in physiology. I wasn't looking for a lecture on attitude lol. I interviewed with two program directors who carry MD's after their name. If I needed a lecture, I'm sure I would have gotten one on interview day.

So back to my question, if you're able to offer some insight into the preclinical part of medical school, I'm still all ears but please refrain from "you're attitude is this or you're attitude is that." You don't know me.

Well, you've pretty much peeved off everyone who was trying to help. If that doesn't scream attitude problem then i don't know what does. The mere fact that numerous people are telling you something you apparently aren't asking should be a strong indication that your communication skills are lacking. Within the course of numerous posts it doesn't seem like any of us understand what you want.

Truthfully, I don't care at this point. Bury your head in the sand and enjoy your 494. Since your program director MD buddies are in your back pocket, why not ask them for advice.

 

[EasyEveryoneWouldDoIt]

i would post this in the M.D forum instead. most people here are premed who haven't gotten into medical schools so can't answer your question the way i am assuming you want. though from my understanding you will have to take biochemistry again in foundations and they will try to cram a year worth of material in a few weeks. have you made up your mind already on your path and just looking for confirmation? if so, i would just go with it your decision and see what happens. success tends to lead to success. there is a reason why ivy league graduate tend to get into better medical schools in general then then get to the top residencies. they are generally the top students already from hs who by nature do very well in college and therefore medical school. but that is not always the case. nothing is 100%.

but i say go do the SMP and see what happens.

 

[puahate]

i would post this in the M.D forum instead. most people here are premed who haven't gotten into medical schools so can't answer your question the way i am assuming you want. though from my understanding you will have to take biochemistry again in foundations and they will try to cram a year worth of material in a few weeks. have you made up your mind already on your path? if so, i would just go with it and see what happens. success tends to lead to success. there is a reason why ivy league graduate tend to get into better medical schools in general then then get to the top residencies. they are generally the top students already from hs who by nature do very well in college and therefore medical school. but that is not always the case. nothing is 100%.

but i say go do the SMP and see what happens.

If you post it in the MD forum it will be moved right back here. Let's be honest.

 

[Phil Woods]

i would post this in the M.D forum instead. most people here are premed who haven't gotten into medical schools so can't answer your question the way i am assuming you want. though from my understanding you will have to take biochemistry again in foundations and they will try to cram a year worth of material in a few weeks. have you made up your mind already on your path? if so, i would just go with it and see what happens. success tends to lead to success. there is a reason why ivy league graduate tend to get into better medical schools in general then then get to the top residencies. they are generally the top students already from hs who by nature do very well in college and therefore medical school. but that is not always the case. nothing is 100%.

but i say go do the SMP and see what happens.

Thanks, it's nice to get a response without an insult lol.

You're probably right. I'm asking about medical school in a pre-allo forum. I just thought more people visit this sub-forum.

The biochem class is 15 weeks in this program. I've never taken biochem before. Only orgo I and II. My understanding, based on what I have been told, is that medical school biochemistry is more disease-related and undergraduate biochem actually reflects chemistry, cell bio, and orgo more so I wanted to see how much different the courses really are.

Yeah, I've made up my mind to pursue the masters. The risk I am taking here is that this masters program will have a 50% chance of success for the one year of the program as opposed to going to an offshore school where medical school and matching will have a 50% chance of success. I was told that have the masters class matriculates into the entering DO class and then there are a few exceptions to that for certain students. It's tough but it's doable.

Yeah, nothing is 100% but you have to calculate your risk and I think this masters program is one of those risks that I would be willing to take.

 

[EasyEveryoneWouldDoIt]

If you post it in the MD forum it will be moved right back here. Let's be honest.

probably

 

[Mass Effect]

I'll be the naysayer and say that any correlation between MCAT and boards is in the student's motivation and ability to perform well on a test. The subject matter is entirely different, especially these days when medical boards are more clinically oriented than they were 30 years ago. Will everyone get a 270 USMLE score? No. But the vast majority accepted into med school pass. As long as you're not tied up in an obsessive need for one particular specialty, there is no reason for you to fear not being able to cut it on this career path due to a low MCAT score.

OP, go for the SMP and don't look back. The curriculum and its relation to pre-reqs depends on the school, but no school is going to give you straight up orgo.

 

[Phil Woods]

I'll be the naysayer and say that any correlation between MCAT and boards is in the student's motivation and ability to perform well on a test. The subject matter is entirely different, especially these days when medical boards are more clinically oriented than they were 30 years ago. Will everyone get a 270 USMLE score? No. But the vast majority accepted into med school pass. As long as you're not tied up in an obsessive need for one particular specialty, there is no reason for you to fear not being able to cut it on this career path due to a low MCAT score.

OP, go for the SMP and don't look back. The curriculum and its relation to pre-reqs depends on the school, but no school is going to give you straight up orgo.

Thank you.

That is exactly what I wanted to know.

 

[Phil Woods]

Go through the linkage program. You shouldn't need to be convinced. Yes your premed stats were bad but as along as you are in med school who cares. Work hard and do what needs to be done.

Please stop trolling. It helps no one. You're a pre-med, I wasn't directing this thread your way. Thank you.

 

[puahate]

How was I trolling? I am telling you that your premed stats have little impact on medical school performance? This is a good thing not a bad thing.

I wish i was in your position. Good luck

Please stop trolling. It helps no one. You're a pre-med, I wasn't directing this thread your way. Thank you.

 

[Goro]

I think you're trying to do here is try to get me to see your point of view on the matter and that is not what I was asking. I'm not asking you to accept my point of view either.

I'm asking if preclinical coursework is similar to undergraduate coursework. I.e will there be structures and mechanisms in biochemistry or 30 minute physics problems in physiology. I wasn't looking for a lecture on attitude lol. I interviewed with two program directors who carry MD's after their name. If I needed a lecture, I'm sure I would have gotten one on interview day.

So back to my question, if you're able to offer some insight into the preclinical part of medical school, I'm still all ears but please refrain from "you're attitude is this or you're attitude is that." You don't know me.

Thanks

By my estimate, in terms of sheer volume of material, the preclinicals of med school are some 3-5x greater than anything in UG. A clinician colleague once described it to me as "like getting an MS degree every semester."

I once had a summer undergrad student and showed his a massive chart of biochemical pathway hanging on the wall of one of the med school classrooms. I told him "you're going to need to learn that".

He refused to believe me. Once he matriculated, he believed me.

Our SMP is based only upon the basics in our first year curriculum. It's a year long program, and this cover what is normally covered in 1/2 of the Fall semester of OMSI.

Keep in mind that even if you can't get into your host school, others will take you, with a better MCAT score (> 500).

 

[Dwan]

Once I got the master's acceptance, which I was pretty sure I would get, I wasn't planning on attending SGU so my question is not about whether to take the master's or SGU route. I know the master's route is smarter. SGU will always be a last resort until they post a match list with no matches.

What I wanted to know was how much the pre-clinical curriculum correlates with the prereq work since I wasn't a fan of the chem, orgo, and physics part of it. That's all.

You're right, this master's program is an audition of sorts for medical school and I would probably be working harder in this program than basic sciences because there is a minimum B+ GPA requirement as opposed to just a passing score. In other words, I have to score higher than the DO students who were accepted with higher stats.

Just curious why everyone seems to think MCAT predicts board scores? I say the MCAT is merely a test to level the playing field. Some of these BS/MD accelerated programs don't even require the MCAT or just require that you take it. Are these students going to fail board too? Just curious because this master's program did not ask me about the MCAT. They were more concerned with the GPA and my reason for wanting to become a doctor and why DO. The only other thing they told me was that if I don't meet the GPA requirement, I would have to reapply through AACOMAS and would need to retake the MCAT at that time to remain competitive. It's a risk but one I am going to take.

I've seen the theme here on SDN that MCAT predicts success but is that bias or do you have some solid data to back that up? Because if you have something solid to back that claim up, I'd sure like to see it. Don't your medical school exams predict board scores?

The BS/MD programs don't require MCAT because those students were exceptional in HS; most of those who are forced to take it score higher than you did. The MCAT alone does not ensure you will do poorly, however, in combination with your UG performance and current attitude, it will be an uphill battle for you. Med school is not like undergraduate in terms of content and your knowledge of O-chem is irrelevant, but you will be faced with many similar circumstances where you will question whether x material is relevant to your step score, or to your ability as a doctor. The top students tend to work hard and excel at everything rather than try to find excuses, as you are doing here. Stop looking at things in isolation one variable at a time (e.g. what % of students succeed from SGU, what % of students pass medical school with your MCAT, success rate of BS/MD students w/o an MCAT) and consider the whole picture. Clearly, something needs to change with the way you approach studying (based on consistency of weak performances) if you would like to become a strong student and get through the SMP/medical school. If you can acquire the proper drive, then no, your lack of o-chem knowledge will not hold you back.

 

[Phil Woods]

By my estimate, in terms of sheer volume of material, the preclinicals of med school are some 3-5x greater than anything in UG. A clinician colleague once described it to me as "like getting an MS degree every semester."

I once had a summer undergrad student and showed his a massive chart of biochemical pathway hanging on the wall of one of the med school classrooms. I told him "you're going to need to learn that".

He refused to believe me. Once he matriculated, he believed me.

Our SMP is based only upon the basics in our first year curriculum. It's a year long program, and this cover what is normally covered in 1/2 of the Fall semester of OMSI.

Keep in mind that even if you can't get into your host school, others will take you, with a better MCAT score (> 500).

What I did not like about undergrad was the flow if that makes sense. I can put in long hour but I don't like wasting time trying to understand, lets say, an elaborate mechanism or a physics problem where I keep missing a step that gives me a wrong answer. I understand the volume of medical school, I was just hoping it wouldn't be a combination of volume and then time wasted on elaborate problems like in undergrad. If it's more mass memorization, then I would have no problem with that as that is how I got through the biology in my undergrad.

This SMP is actually the first year DO program minus two courses. I don't want to go into details but it's graded on a curve so if the DO students are passing with 70's, you'll be expected to get a 90 to get that 3.5. That certainly puts a lot of stress on whoever is attempting a program like this but it's only one year and getting into a US program is the ultimate goal because I know how it works at SGU and that's a giant risk to take and should only be taken if that's your last opportunity, in which case I would say trying it out isn't the end of the world. If you pass you pass, if you don't pass the first term there, at least you tried. Now that I have the masters acceptance, I luckily don't have to take that risk.

My goal is to matriculated into this program. It's a good program and in a good location and I would want to eventually settle and practice here should I get my degree here. It would have been better to have at least a 500 on the MCAT but I didn't have intentions of applying stateside because I thought my GPA would keep me out. This masters program happened by chance because I got an LOR from someone who is a colleague of one of the program directors and they recommended me. I was thinking that I was headed to SGU all this time so all of this happened within the last month and I am trying to get ready for it so I know what to expect.

 

[Phil Woods]

The BS/MD programs don't require MCAT because those students were exceptional in HS; most of those who are forced to take it score higher than you did. The MCAT alone does not ensure you will do poorly, however, in combination with your UG performance and current attitude, it will be an uphill battle for you. Med school is not like undergraduate in terms of content and your knowledge of O-chem is irrelevant, but you will be faced with many similar circumstances where you will question whether x material is relevant to your step score, or to your ability as a doctor. The top students tend to work hard and excel at everything rather than try to find excuses, as you are doing here. Stop looking at things in isolation one variable at a time (e.g. what % of students succeed from SGU, what % of students pass medical school with your MCAT, success rate of BS/MD students w/o an MCAT) and consider the whole picture. Clearly, something needs to change with the way you approach studying (based on consistency of weak performances) if you would like to become a strong student and get through the SMP/medical school. If you can acquire the proper drive, then no, your lack of o-chem knowledge will not hold you back.

Ok, so doing well in HS now correlates to high step scores lol. That's good to know because I had a 4.0 in HS so I guess I'll just disregard my MCAT now.

Listen, I understand you're on the defensive and want to get a few jabs in there while trying to answer a rather simple question and that's fine but you don't know me right? So keep it objective and let me decide if I'm ready for medical school or not. I don't think the program would accept me if they felt I didn't have what it takes to complete it so try to keep that in mind.

 

[965978]

What I did not like about undergrad was the flow if that makes sense. I can put in long hour but I don't like wasting time trying to understand, lets say, an elaborate mechanism or a physics problem where I keep missing a step that gives me a wrong answer. I understand the volume of medical school, I was just hoping it wouldn't be a combination of volume and then time wasted on elaborate problems like in undergrad. If it's more mass memorization, then I would have no problem with that as that is how I got through the biology in my undergrad.

This SMP is actually the first year DO program minus two courses. I don't want to go into details but it's graded on a curve so if the DO students are passing with 70's, you'll be expected to get a 90 to get that 3.5. That certainly puts a lot of stress on whoever is attempting a program like this but it's only one year and getting into a US program is the ultimate goal because I know how it works at SGU and that's a giant risk to take and should only be taken if that's your last opportunity, in which case I would say trying it out isn't the end of the world. If you pass you pass, if you don't pass the first term there, at least you tried. Now that I have the masters acceptance, I luckily don't have to take that risk.

My goal is to matriculated into this program. It's a good program and in a good location and I would want to eventually settle and practice here should I get my degree here. It would have been better to have at least a 500 on the MCAT but I didn't have intentions of applying stateside because I thought my GPA would keep me out. This masters program happened by chance because I got an LOR from someone who is a colleague of one of the program directors and they recommended me. I was thinking that I was headed to SGU all this time so all of this happened within the last month and I am trying to get ready for it so I know what to expect.

Problem solving doesn’t go away in medical school. Or residency. Or as an attending. Or in life.

 

[Dwan]

Ok, so doing well in HS now correlates to high step scores lol. That's good to know because I had a 4.0 in HS so I guess I'll just disregard my MCAT now.

Listen, I understand you're on the defensive and want to get a few jabs in there while trying to answer a rather simple question and that's fine but you don't know me right? So keep it objective and let me decide if I'm ready for medical school or not. I don't think the program would accept me if they felt I didn't have what it takes to complete it so try to keep that in mind.

Was your app good enough to get into a BS/MD program plus maintain all the requirements for entrance? Programs know your #s but not your attitude, which is an even bigger factor than your performances (although both are relevant). Take advice from people who've been through it all, rather than living in a world of denial, if you ever want to succeed in this field.

 

[Phil Woods]

Problem solving doesn’t go away in medical school. Or residency. Or as an attending. Or in life.

Oh I was just asking about organic chemistry. Sorry if you missed that.

 

[Lucca]

there are newer studies on the correlation b/w MCAT and Step exams. Here's one with n>1000 from 2016.

Do MCAT scores predict USMLE scores? An analysis on 5 years of medical student data

The purpose of this study was to determine the associations and predictive values of Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) component and composite scores prior to 2015 with U.S. Medical Licensure Exam (USMLE) Step 1 and Step 2 Clinical Knowledge (CK) ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Spoiler: paper extract

Correlations

Spoiler: paper extract

We computed Pearson product-moment correlation coefficients to assess the general relationship between MCAT composite scores and USMLE exam scores. We found positive correlations for both Step 1 (r=0.39, p<0.001) and Step 2 CK (r=0.31, p<0.001). These results indicate significant moderately positive relationships between MCAT composite scores and USMLE exam scores.
Multiple linear regressions
We conducted multiple linear regression analyses to determine the relationships between MCAT component scores and scores on the USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 CK exams. We calculated a multiple linear regression to predict USMLE Step 1 scores based on MCAT BS, PS, and VR component scores. We found that the BS (β=0.277, p<0.001), PS (β=0.199, p<0.001), and VR (β=0.062, p=0.031) components were all significant predictors. The three predictor model was able to account for 17.7% of the variance in Step 1 score, F(3, 1,061)=75.862, p<0.001, R 2=0.177. Students’ predicted USMLE Step 1 score is equal to 157.155+3.548(BS)+2.215(PS)+0.748(VR), where BS is the student's score on the MCAT BS component, PS is the student's score on the MCAT PS component, and VR is the student's score on the MCAT VR component. USMLE Step 1 score increased 3.548 points for each point on the MCAT BS component, 2.215 points for each point on the MCAT PS component, and 0.748 points for each point on the MCAT VR component.
We also calculated a multiple linear regression to predict USMLE Step 2 CK scores based on MCAT BS, PS, and VR component scores. We again found that the BS (β=0.253, p<0.001), PS (β=0.085, p=0.007), and VR (β=0.118, p<0.001) components were all significant predictors. The three predictor model was able to account for 12.0% of the variance in Step 2 score, F(3, 1,057)=48.032, p<0.001, R2=0.120. Students’ predicted USMLE Step 2 CK score is equal to 186.324+2.819(BS)+0.822(PS)+1.237(VR), where BS is the student's score on the MCAT BS component, PS is the student's score on the MCAT PS component, and VR is the student's score on the MCAT VR component. USMLE Step 2 CK score increased 2.819 points for each point on the MCAT BS component, 0.822 points for each point on the MCAT PS component, and 1.237 points for each point on the MCAT VR component.

The "new" MCAT came out in 2015 and this year the AAMC released their perspective on using the MCAT in admissions and have a figure in the report that talks about student performance in the first year of medical school. uGPA + MCAT are obviously not 1:1 predictors of success in medical school, but its obvious from the data they present that they are pretty robust metrics (0.62 r2 correlation together).

https://www.aamc.org/download/462316/data/mcatguide.pdf

nobody will be asking you to solve for the tension in a pulley system but your trepidation at having to do any second order logic whatsoever in medical school does raise some legitimate concerns about whether this is the right profession for you, or whether you can, as you suggest, perform one SD above the mean of DO students who were objectively more prepared than you appear to be at the moment for the coursework.

 

[Phil Woods]

Was your app good enough to get into a BS/MD program plus maintain all the requirements for entrance? Programs know your #s but not your attitude, which is an even bigger factor than your performances (although both are relevant). Take advice from people who've been through it all, rather than living in a world of denial, if you ever want to succeed in this field.

I think I asked a pretty straightforward question, that was answered BTW by someone else, and you have decided to take offense to it. I can't help you there.

As to your question, I never applied to a BS/MD program. I applied to a masters/DO linkage...and got in so I don't know what you mean by denial.

 

[Phil Woods]

there are newer studies on the correlation b/w MCAT and Step exams. Here's one with n>1000 from 2016.

Do MCAT scores predict USMLE scores? An analysis on 5 years of medical student data

The purpose of this study was to determine the associations and predictive values of Medical College Admission Test (MCAT) component and composite scores prior to 2015 with U.S. Medical Licensure Exam (USMLE) Step 1 and Step 2 Clinical Knowledge (CK) ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Spoiler: paper extract

Correlations

Spoiler: paper extract

We computed Pearson product-moment correlation coefficients to assess the general relationship between MCAT composite scores and USMLE exam scores. We found positive correlations for both Step 1 (r=0.39, p<0.001) and Step 2 CK (r=0.31, p<0.001). These results indicate significant moderately positive relationships between MCAT composite scores and USMLE exam scores.
Multiple linear regressions
We conducted multiple linear regression analyses to determine the relationships between MCAT component scores and scores on the USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 CK exams. We calculated a multiple linear regression to predict USMLE Step 1 scores based on MCAT BS, PS, and VR component scores. We found that the BS (β=0.277, p<0.001), PS (β=0.199, p<0.001), and VR (β=0.062, p=0.031) components were all significant predictors. The three predictor model was able to account for 17.7% of the variance in Step 1 score, F(3, 1,061)=75.862, p<0.001, R 2=0.177. Students’ predicted USMLE Step 1 score is equal to 157.155+3.548(BS)+2.215(PS)+0.748(VR), where BS is the student's score on the MCAT BS component, PS is the student's score on the MCAT PS component, and VR is the student's score on the MCAT VR component. USMLE Step 1 score increased 3.548 points for each point on the MCAT BS component, 2.215 points for each point on the MCAT PS component, and 0.748 points for each point on the MCAT VR component.
We also calculated a multiple linear regression to predict USMLE Step 2 CK scores based on MCAT BS, PS, and VR component scores. We again found that the BS (β=0.253, p<0.001), PS (β=0.085, p=0.007), and VR (β=0.118, p<0.001) components were all significant predictors. The three predictor model was able to account for 12.0% of the variance in Step 2 score, F(3, 1,057)=48.032, p<0.001, R2=0.120. Students’ predicted USMLE Step 2 CK score is equal to 186.324+2.819(BS)+0.822(PS)+1.237(VR), where BS is the student's score on the MCAT BS component, PS is the student's score on the MCAT PS component, and VR is the student's score on the MCAT VR component. USMLE Step 2 CK score increased 2.819 points for each point on the MCAT BS component, 0.822 points for each point on the MCAT PS component, and 1.237 points for each point on the MCAT VR component.

The "new" MCAT came out in 2015 and this year the AAMC released their perspective on using the MCAT in admissions and have a figure in the report that talks about student performance in the first year of medical school. uGPA + MCAT are obviously not 1:1 predictors of success in medical school, but its obvious from the data they present that they are pretty robust metrics (0.62 r2 correlation together).

https://www.aamc.org/download/462316/data/mcatguide.pdf

nobody will be asking you to solve for the tension in a pulley system but your trepidation at having to do any second order logic whatsoever in medical school does raise some legitimate concerns about whether this is the right profession for you, or whether you can, as you suggest, perform one SD above the mean of DO students who were objectively more prepared than you appear to be at the moment for the coursework.

Explain how the prereqs prepare you for "the coursework." I'm saying they are just prereqs and there is no correlation. Now help me to see otherwise.

 

[Dwan]

I think I asked a pretty straightforward question, that was answered BTW by someone else, and you have decided to take offense to it. I can't help you there.

As to your question, I never applied to a BS/MD program. I applied to a masters/DO linkage...and got in so I don't know what you mean by denial.

The point is, the BS/MD students have a collective set of circumstances that predict them to be fine in medical school. Yours do not. I'm not offended nor do I need help, when I've already succeeded through UG and medical school. And I did answer your question, but I think you answered your own question before the thread even started and are only seeking confirmation, as you shut down anyone who presents data or arguments you don't want to see.

 

[puahate]

And I did answer your question, but I think you answered your own question before the thread even started and are only seeking confirmation, as you shut down anyone who presents data or arguments you don't want to see.

I noticed this as well. Any criticism or support given is shut down even if it was beneficial.

I'm honestly confused why this thread was made.

 

[Phil Woods]

The point is, the BS/MD students have a collective set of circumstances that predict them to be fine in medical school. Yours do not. I'm not offended nor do I need help, when I've already succeeded through UG and medical school. And I did answer your question, but I think you answered your own question before the thread even started and are only seeking confirmation, as you shut down anyone who presents data or arguments you don't want to see.

What I'm trying to get YOU to understand is that you had a path to medical school. Now I have a path to medical school. The path is not the same but the result will be. What you're trying to do here is to say "only this type of student can succeed" and you and I both know that is false and not constructive advice nor warranted advice. I think some of us tend to confuse admit rates with the "difficulty" of the program or the career itself.

To put that into perspective, my understanding is that Caribbean graduates had a lot of success maybe a decade ago. What does that say about what I am asking?

BTW, I wasn't asking for predictions. I just wanted to know what preclinical was like.

 

[Phil Woods]

I noticed this as well. Any criticism or support given is shut down even if it was beneficial.

I'm honestly confused why this thread was made.

You're confused because you're a pre-med. I was asking this to people who were in medical school who visit this sub forum. Notice how someone already answered the question rather succinctly.

 

[Lucca]

Explain how the prereqs prepare you for "the coursework." I'm saying they are just prereqs and there is no correlation. Now help me to see otherwise.

No. Just look at the AAMC document. The correlation is there for you to see between uGPA and first-year performance. If you want to go on believing you'll do just fine as long as nobody makes you push arrows then go ahead, what everyone on this thread is trying to tell you is that if you actually want to make the most out of this SMP and perform at the level you need to then you need to change the kind of student you have demonstrably been.

 

[puahate]

You're confused because you're a pre-med. I was asking this to people who were in medical school who visit this sub forum. Notice how someone already answered the question rather succinctly.

Good luck in your master program.

 

[Dwan]

What I'm trying to get YOU to understand is that you had a path to medical school. Now I have a path to medical school. The path is not the same but the result will be. What you're trying to do here is to say "only this type of student can succeed" and you and I both know that is false and not constructive advice nor warranted advice. I think some of us tend to confuse admit rates with the "difficulty" of the program or the career itself.

To put that into perspective, my understanding is that Caribbean graduates had a lot of success maybe a decade ago. What does that say about what I am asking?

BTW, I wasn't asking for predictions. I just wanted to know what preclinical was like.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I was not a great student in HS, but was able to succeed through a different path compared to BS/MD students. What those 2 paths have in common, however, is that both select for factors including hard work and motivation. This includes the path you are planning on undertaking - there's a reason it's a conditional acceptance. I told you about what pre-clinical was like, and how it is similar and different to doing well in prior coursework.

 

[EasyEveryoneWouldDoIt]

No matter what is said here OP is going to do the SMP and see what from there. They were mostly looking at confirmation of their decision. I say close this thread and move on.

 

[Phil Woods]

No. Just look at the AAMC document. The correlation is there for you to see between uGPA and first-year performance. If you want to go on believing you'll do just fine as long as nobody makes you push arrows then go ahead, what everyone on this thread is trying to tell you is that if you actually want to make the most out of this SMP and perform at the level you need to then you need to change the kind of student you have demonstrably been.

What I'm saying is that I am already a capable student but I did not like the orgo, chem, or physics. Does that make sense? That's what I was asking and I think it's a legitimate concern since those are prereq courses. I didn't say I have a 2.5 GPA and I want to go to medical school. I think you're confusing my situation with that type of a situation. To put that into perspective, I have an acceptance to this program so unless this school is trying to steal my money, they must feel that I am capable of performing in this program. I just wanted to know how much different preclinical was compared to undergrad, and 95% are choosing to just be vague because you have something you want to prove.

 

[Phil Woods]

No matter what is said here OP is going to do the SMP and see what from there. They were mostly looking at confirmation of their decision. I say close this thread and move on.

Not confirmation, most just choose to skate around the original topic of discussion.

I got my answer. The thread can be closed if you like. Or you can keep it open and I'll respond back next year at some time.

 

[965978]

Oh I was just asking about organic chemistry. Sorry if you missed that.

Problem solving is problem solving, and if you don’t like it then tough luck.

Why are you getting so upset if people are trying to tell you something? If you don’t like it then don’t follow their advice. Simple as that. Plus, you’ve already gotten your answer from the people who’ve told you what you want to hear.

 

[Tenk]

Hi,

I'm not planning on lurking on these boards so I'm going to tell you where I'm right now at and get some advice on which path to take.

Being that I just told you that I won't be lurking here, I would appreciate it if the trolls don't give me their "advice" because I'm not on here to debate. Just want facts so I can move on. Thanks.

I just got accepted into an MS program that has a DO linkage. Upon successful completion of this program, I will get a guaranteed spot in the DO class. I also have an acceptance from St. George's for August. Now that I have the DO masters acceptance, I am going to 99.9% take that unless I am convinced otherwise. I know how SGU works, I have tons of friends that have gone down that path. I know a lot don't succeed and it's really a tossup as to whether or not you will make it out in four years and then match. I'll do it if it's my last resort but as long as I have something that can keep me stateside, I'm going to keep trying here.

Here's what I need some advice on. I have a 3.3 sGPA. My cumulative is going to be calculated low because I have some pretty bad semesters from way back when I first started at college and just didn't care. With AMCAS or AACOMAS, I would need to do a lot of GPA rehabiliation which does not make much sense from a time and money perspective. The MS program did not grade average so I met their cutoffs.

My biology, anatomy and physiology, and micro courses are all A's and I feel very comfortable with that material. I'm going to be very real with you here. I BS'd my way through Gen Chem I and II and hated the way those classes were taught at my school. I probably learned something but I honestly had no idea what was going on in Gen Chem II other than the memorization and application of random formulas. I could not understand what we were trying to accomplish in that course other than finding a way to weed out the pre-meds. I did not come away with the "big picture" from that course sequence. Orgo, I just took a B and C respectively and I'm calling it a day with that sequence as well. Didn't learn a thing and that course was just all over the place from day 1. My lab journal saved me for that course. I took algebra physics I and II and I just memorized whatever problems I needed to and put them down on the test. A few concepts made logical sense but I did not care for much else. The engineering students in our class seemed much more passionate about the material. I don't plan on applying buoyancy principles and trying to understand whether or not a giant polar bear will sink if it sits on a piece of wood in the middle of a lake.

Anyway, this DO program appears to be intense as I have to meet a GPA cutoff of 3.5. The curriculum is the first year DO program minus OMM and physical diagnosis. I'm posting this in pre-allo because I want to know if those pre reqs correlate to performance in the medical sciences or if I should just be happy I have a spot that is going to eventually lead to a US medical school acceptance and right now I have a clean slate.

I should note I have a 494 MCAT and the MCAT score is not a condition of acceptance into the MS program nor is it a requirement for the DO linkage. I just need to get the 3.5 and pass a comprehensive exam. I'm not sold on whether the MCAT predicts USMLE or COMLEX performance and that is why I do not want to retake it. I suppose if you get a high MCAT score, you most likely will get passing or high board scores but I think that has more to do with your individual preparation for each test.

I don't know where on the COMLEX or USMLE do you have to calculate problems like I was subjected to in chem, orgo, and physics. I admittedly hated those courses and I want to know if I should just consider them done and focus on moving on right now or if I should be telling myself that if you hate those courses, you will hate medical school and you need to take a step back and evaluate this decision.

I guess help me to understand how much different the medical school curicculum is different compared to how the undergraduate requirements are set up. Looking for some "realness" here not your bias because you "got A's in orgo." I have the chance to become a doctor now and I don't want to throw it away but I also don't want to start something that won't produce a positive outcome. If the prereqs don't matter anymore, just let me know and I'll take that masters acceptance for August and won't look back.

Thanks

None of what you did matters and none of what you have experienced in undergrad can compare to medical school level courses. Medical school (especially MS1) isn’t applying formulas and calculations. It is pure brute force memorization. You will memorize the entire Krebs cycle. You will memorize glycolysis. You will memorize the entire human body. You will memorize a million other things or you will fail.

Can you memorize well? That is literally the only question that matters here.