Need your help

[AnatomyGrey12]

Hello my fellow SDNers,

Of all my time on SDN this might be the first time that I have created a thread, and it is because I need your help. My school has just informed us, the students, that we will be getting NO CREDIT for the months of April and May and they will be using our elective/audition time to force us to do made up online electives during this time, none of which will count for ANY of our requirements for graduation outside of filling an elective slot. Our school has a very heavy primary care focus, understandable, and as such we have 5 extra rotations that are required for graduation in addition to Core Rotations. These are Community Hospital X2, Rural Clinic, and Primary Care Elective X2. Our school has decided that these rotations are more important than our auditions and future careers. As a class our biggest problem with this administrative decision is that current 4th years GOT CREDIT for one of these rotations this month, so it is possible for them to do it, they are simply refusing.

What I need from you:

I need everyone willing to answer my poll if whether or not your school is allowing online modules for Rotations Required for Graduation. These can be core rotations or any other specific rotations that are required and not just general electives. If your answer is yes, then I need you to DM me with details about exactly what your school is doing, and preferably concrete evidence (I.e. a syllabus, email from admin, etc).


UPDATE: After the amount of backlash admin received from our class they have decided to give us credit for the rural and community rotations for April and May, potentially even June if this extends into June.

For the rest of you at schools that have instituted similar nonsensical policies, there is power in numbers. Changes can be made if a large cohort of the class submits complaints.

Thank you for everyone who messaged me!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[risus_sardonicus]

The stupidity of D.O schools never fails to deliver


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[sdhere1234]

What school do you go to? It sounds like hell.

My DO school started using Aquifer for all core rotations beginning 2nd half of march until the foreseeable future that fulfills ALL CORE rotation requirements for third year. I will likely finish my 8 weeks of IM without ever stepping foot into a hospital (April/May)

 

[deleted480308]

Hello my fellow SDNers,

Of all my time on SDN this might be the first time that I have created a thread, and it is because I need your help. My school has just informed us, the students, that we will be getting NO CREDIT for the months of April and May and they will be using our elective/audition time to force us to do made up online electives during this time, none of which will count for ANY of our requirements for graduation outside of filling an elective slot. Our school has a very heavy primary care focus, understandable, and as such we have 5 extra rotations that are required for graduation in addition to Core Rotations. These are Community Hospital X2, Rural Clinic, and Primary Care Elective X2. Our school has decided that these rotations are more important than our auditions and future careers. As a class our biggest problem with this administrative decision is that current 4th years GOT CREDIT for one of these rotations this month, so it is possible for them to do it, they are simply refusing.

What I need from you:

I need everyone willing to answer my poll if whether or not your school is allowing online modules for Rotations Required for Graduation. These can be core rotations or any other specific rotations that are required and not just general electives. If your answer is yes, then I need you to DM me with details about exactly what your school is doing, and preferably concrete evidence (I.e. a syllabus, email from admin, etc).

talk to your sga, they can have word to all the school governments in one email and gather the info

 

[Ozilcr7]

NAME n SHAME

 

[Dr. Death]

It's OSU, probably the best DO school. Though to say administration has always made good decisions is a stretch.

What school do you go to? It sounds like hell.

My DO school started using Aquifer for all core rotations beginning 2nd half of march until the foreseeable future that fulfills ALL CORE rotation requirements for third year. I will likely finish my 8 weeks of IM without ever stepping foot into a hospital (April/May)

This is a real problem. Clinical rotations aren't some busy work where you check the box and move on. There should be real growth and knowledge and skill gained. If you're doing online modules you're fulfilling NP requirements.

 

[67552931811]

It's OSU, probably the best DO school. Though to say administration has always made good decisions is a stretch.

This is a real problem. Clinical rotations aren't some busy work where you check the box and move on. There should be real growth and knowledge and skill gained. If you're doing online modules you're fulfilling NP requirements.

Lol.

 

[Dr. Death]

Lol.

I don't actually think it's debatable. DO school with it's own hospital and residencies (including ortho, ENT). Research program where 20-25% of students are published authors by the end of med school including several per year with 10+ publications and multiple first authors. Cheaper tuition than most, especially if you are in-state. 13 months of electives. 2 months of dedicated. 2.5 hours of OMM per week.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

13 months of electives. 2 months of dedicated. 2.5 hours of OMM per week.

We get 7 months of electives.... I'll give you the dedicated and OMM stuff.

This is a real problem. Clinical rotations aren't some busy work where you check the box and move on. There should be real growth and knowledge and skill gained. If you're doing online modules you're fulfilling NP requirements.

I would argue auditions are more important... the entire point of med school is to get into residency. However, I can understand not having online core's, I can't understand not having online community hospital and PC elective rotations given the current situation.... This is now TWO months that are nothing but vacation and audition time being thrown down the drain. Mainly I can't believe we're being forced to pay tuition for online OMM modules and then not even getting required rotation credit for it.....

 

[Dr. Death]

We get 7 months of electives.... I'll give you the dedicated and OMM stuff.



I would argue auditions are more important... the entire point of med school is to get into residency. However, I can understand not having online core's, I can't understand not having online community hospital and PC elective rotations given the current situation.... This is now TWO months that are nothing but vacation and audition time being thrown down the drain. Mainly I can't believe we're being forced to pay tuition for online OMM modules and then not even getting required rotation credit for it.....

I'm not going to argue that it doesn't suck, or that auditions aren't more important (though that is 1000% specialty dependent). Especially sucky for those "useless rotations" (which actually turned out to be some rotations I learned most on). I don't think either of us are arguing that there aren't certain requirements (IM, surgery, Psych, OB, etc) that shouldn't be able to be made up on an online module.

 

[Preston Garvey]

Wow that is such a garbage decision. Auditions are so important for some specialties. Maybe those making the decision didn’t realize how important auditions were? You would be surprised at what attendings forget about medical school, they just get so far removed. Hope they change their mind!

 

[samac]

I answered that our school is allowing online rotations to count for graduation requirements, but I’m a 4th year and have no idea if they’re forcing them to use electives or if they’re letting them count for the required 4th year rotations, so sorry my response isn’t much help. I would bet they’re forcing them to use elective slots first though.

 

[medstar11]

Our school allowed us to use these online modules in the place of one required 4 week block that we have a certain subset of specialties to choose from (peds,Ob/GYN, geriatrics) but this was at the discretion of our local clinical heads so each location could have a different answer/ not be able to do this. Other than that they are currently only allowing us to use electives otherwise which is really terrible. They are also preparing us to be online until at least the end of May so 2.5 months of online "electives" being used.

 

[Oh_Gee]

It's OSU, probably the best DO school. Though to say administration has always made good decisions is a stretch.

This is a real problem. Clinical rotations aren't some busy work where you check the box and move on. There should be real growth and knowledge and skill gained. If you're doing online modules you're fulfilling NP requirements.

THE OSU?

 

[goneriding]

My school is giving us the option to keep doing professional development (aka Medical Spanish) rotations for 4th year credit and then making up the last two months of 3rd year core rotations later on in 4th year, or doing the last 2 months of 3rd year core rotations online via Aquifer/Case Files/OME/Online Conferences. The tradeoff is that online core rotations will not be eligible for honors (even if you honor the COMAT), and will be noted on your MSPE as such. I don't think that looks too good, but I'd rather not burn my 4th year electives] months for my audition rotations.

 

[Sephirakra]

THE OSU?

Nope, not that one.

 

[ciestar]

Im doing my EM sub-i online. Lots of reading, videos, and podcasts. We Zoom three times a week for presentations and online lecture.

 

[sunshinefl]

Thus far our 7 weeks of “online modules” through May 3rd that are taking place during the M3 cores we’re missing... are going to replace/be switched with M4 elective time. However, they say it’s “still being discussed.” Don’t see how they would count it as finishing the M3 cores at this point though because they have us doing “public health:COVID19” and “clinical research elective” as our online coursework, not core information.

 

[hallowmann]

Have you guys proposed solutions that are primary care based? Like online POCUS training, OMM elective, or public health/preventative medicine to get credit for the primary care elective time. It sure seems like that could easily replace at least 1 of those two blocks. People who want PC can still do an in-person elective and people who don't will still have elective time.

It honestly doesn't make sense not to do something like that when you have so many primary care based blocks in 4th year.

I second the suggestion to go through your SGA and have it be a very united front for your whole class. They could always do the whole asterisk thing on the diploma indicating distance learning.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Have you guys proposed solutions that are primary care based? Like online POCUS training, OMM elective, or public health/preventative medicine to get credit for the primary care elective time. It sure seems like that could easily replace at least 1 of those two blocks. People who want PC can still do an in-person elective and people who don't will still have elective time

We tried. Those are literally the options they are giving us but they were very clear they do NOT count for any required primary care elective or community rotation. They only count as one of our general electives which is what our auditions get classified as, and we only have 7 of them.

 

[getfat]

Has anyone asked specifically about auditions? i doubt they said bump auditions.

Idk if i'm misunderstanding but before you had the ability to perform 7 electives (for auditions), how many can you perform now (2?)

"Community Hospital X2, Rural Clinic, and Primary Care Elective X2" is pretty broad. Can you integrate an audition that would technically check this box? Or do they have specific sites they want you to complete this?

 

[Mass Effect]

What school do you go to? It sounds like hell.

My DO school started using Aquifer for all core rotations beginning 2nd half of march until the foreseeable future that fulfills ALL CORE rotation requirements for third year. I will likely finish my 8 weeks of IM without ever stepping foot into a hospital (April/May)

Yeah, that's not good either. I think it's horrible for anyone to graduate medical school/get credit for 3rd yr without ever working an IM ward.

 

[Mass Effect]

I would argue auditions are more important... the entire point of med school is to get into residency

No, the point of med school is to actually, you know, learn medicine. Residency is what comes next.

 

[sdhere1234]

Yeah, that's not good either. I think it's horrible for anyone to graduate medical school/get credit for 3rd yr without ever working an IM ward.

We have 2 required IM rotations 4th year (+ 7 months of electives). Satisfying the core rotations for third year online allows us not to be ****ed over when scheduling our auditions (arguably more important in many specialties than cramming in a third year core during audition season).

 

[Mass Effect]

We have 2 required IM rotations 4th year (+ 7 months of electives). Satisfying the core rotations for third year online allows us not to be ****ed over when scheduling our auditions (arguably more important in many specialties than cramming in a third year core during audition season).

I agree that you guys should be able to do auditions when you want and schedule requirements around it, but do you really need 7 months of electives? I mean, really?

 

[SurgDoc95]

I agree that you guys should be able to do auditions when you want and schedule requirements around it, but do you really need 7 months of electives? I mean, really?

I mean we have the entirety of 4th year to do all electives with 1 month of required EM. Very happy with that set up tbh

 

[sdhere1234]

I agree that you guys should be able to do auditions when you want and schedule requirements around it, but do you really need 7 months of electives? I mean, really?

I don't understand what you're saying. Electives are rotations that you schedule yourself depending on what field you want to pursue or what interests you.

For example if you were applying EM and you did 3 auditions (July, Aug, Sept) those count as "electives" so you now have 4 remaining "free blocks aka electives" and the 2 required IM rotations that are required for graduation.

 

[Mass Effect]

I mean we have the entirety of 4th year to do all electives with 1 month of required EM. Very happy with that set up tbh

I mean, everyone would be happy with that set-up. But in a time of a pandemic when you may be forced to give up a couple of those months to do your 3rd year cores/requirements, it's not the end of the world.

 

[Mass Effect]

I don't understand what you're saying. Electives are rotations that you schedule yourself depending on what field you want to pursue or what interests you.

For example if you were applying EM and you did 3 auditions (July, Aug, Sept) those count as "electives" so you now have 4 remaining "free blocks aka electives" and the 2 required IM rotations that are required for graduation.

Yeah, thanks for the schooling. Being an attending who was in med school in the Dark Ages (aka 2014), I wasn't familiar with the term "elective" or what it meant.

What I'm saying is that complaining about having only 5 months of "electives" rather than 7 is pretty petty. No one actually needs 7 months of electives.

 

[SurgDoc95]

I mean, everyone would be happy with that set-up. But in a time of a pandemic when you may be forced to give up a couple of those months to do your 3rd year cores/requirements, it's not the end of the world.

For those of us banking on audition rotations yes it is. I've got no issues with finishing my remaining core(s) after audition and interviews are over, but to make us do them in the summer/early fall dramatically will have an impact on our ability to match.

 

[DNC127]

This hurts ortho and ENT. Everyone else really a non-issue imo.

 

[SurgDoc95]

This hurts ortho and ENT. Everyone else really a non-issue imo.

I'd throw us borderline gen surg candidates in there as well

 

[risus_sardonicus]

This hurts ortho and ENT. Everyone else really a non-issue imo.

Not really. Ophtho, uro, IR, Gen surg, hell even academic IM. With killer board scores, and an outgoing-social personality, an audition can take you to the next level (Large academic MD programs) as a D.O


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I have added an update to the OP. Thanks everyone for contributing! Keep fighting the good fight

 

[DNC127]

Not really. Ophtho, uro, IR, Gen surg, hell even academic IM. With killer board scores, and an outgoing-social personality, an audition can take you to the next level (Large academic MD programs) as a D.O


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

Ya but you don’t need 5 auditions for IM.

I should have included optho and all the surgical subs, but there isn’t a lot of DO programs so I don’t always think of those

 

[Ho0v-man]

Yeah, thanks for the schooling. Being an attending who was in med school in the Dark Ages (aka 2014), I wasn't familiar with the term "elective" or what it meant.

What I'm saying is that complaining about having only 5 months of "electives" rather than 7 is pretty petty. No one actually needs 7 months of electives.

Whatever. It’s still something we pay for. I don’t need all eight slices of pizza but when I order a large pizza and it comes out with five slices the waiter better not say “Yeah but nobody really needs all eight slices.”

Theres nothing wrong with wanting what’s yours.

 

[Neopolymath]

Whatever. It’s still something we pay for. I don’t need all eight slices of pizza but when I order a large pizza and it comes out with five slices the waiter better not say “Yeah but nobody really needs all eight slices.”

Theres nothing wrong with wanting what’s yours.

It's IMPERATIVE to complete your rural IM track in August. Absolutely IMPERATIVE!

 

[risus_sardonicus]

Ya but you don’t need 5 auditions for IM.

I should have included optho and all the surgical subs, but there isn’t a lot of DO programs so I don’t always think of those

Sure but you also don’t need 5 auditions for anything else either. Personally, I know someone who did 5 IM auditions, ended up getting an interview at all 5, and matched to their #1 IM choice (Large Academic Program). So your point is basically moot...


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[DNC127]

Sure but you also don’t need 5 auditions for anything else either. Personally, I know someone who did 5 IM auditions, ended up getting an interview at all 5, and matched to their #1 IM choice (Large Academic Program). So your point is basically moot...


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

You need 5 for DO ortho or ENT if you want to be a serious applicant. You don’t get interviews outside of your auditions unless you are a stud among studs

 

[mathnerd88]

Sure but you also don’t need 5 auditions for anything else either. Personally, I know someone who did 5 IM auditions, ended up getting an interview at all 5, and matched to their #1 IM choice (Large Academic Program). So your point is basically moot...


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

As someone who matched into an academic IM program without doing an audition there, I believe that auditions will do more harm than good unless you are performing even better than their interns, especially as a DO. I know of some MD schools advising against applicants going into IM to do auditions at competitive places. I purposely did all my auditions at community places because I didn't want to burn bridges at academic places in case I failed to impress.

What gets applicants to match into academic IM places is not really where you audition, but your board scores/research/extracurriculars/personality.

Auditions may help weaker candidates get into academic out of reach IM places if they demonstrate an outstanding ability to be able to perform intern work competently. Otherwise, if you already are a strong candidate, I would not advise doing auditions unless you're a complete rockstar.

With your anecdotal evidence, I can also say I know quite a few candidates who did do auditions at competitive academic IM (and other non IM) places, and fail to match there.

 

[risus_sardonicus]

As someone who matched into an academic IM program without doing an audition there, I believe that auditions will do more harm than good unless you are performing even better than their interns, especially as a DO. I know of some MD schools advising against applicants going into IM to do auditions at competitive places. I purposely did all my auditions at community places because I didn't want to burn bridges at academic places in case I failed to impress.

What gets applicants to match into academic IM places is not really where you audition, but your board scores/research/extracurriculars/personality.

Auditions may help weaker candidates get into academic out of reach IM places if they demonstrate an outstanding ability to be able to perform intern work competently. Otherwise, if you already are a strong candidate, I would not advise doing auditions unless you're a complete rockstar.

With your anecdotal evidence, I can also say I know quite a few candidates who did do auditions at competitive academic IM (and other non IM) places, and fail to match there.

Sure, I didn’t imply it was a cookie cutter formula, hence the “good social skills / outgoing personality” being a requirement. You have to know how to play the game.

I’m still a proponent of sub-is if you’re a strong candidate already because most places that don’t take D.Os will not even take you seriously even if they interview you. You will land near the bottom of their rank list, and will not match there. Conversely an audition can give you a chance to prove how well you would fit in, with a caveat that you have good social skills and know how to play the game.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

 

[mathnerd88]

Sure, I didn’t imply it was a cookie cutter formula, hence the “good social skills / outgoing personality” being a requirement. You have to know how to play the game.

I’m still a proponent of sub-is if you’re a strong candidate already because most places that don’t take D.Os will not even take you seriously even if they interview you. You will land near the bottom of their rank list, and will not match there. Conversely an audition can give you a chance to prove how well you would fit in, with a caveat that you have good social skills and know how to play the game.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

I believe this may be specialty dependent. Even if you played your game right, did all the right things, impressed every one of your colleagues, competitive specialties will always put you low on their rank lists if they have been traditionally taking only MDs. Competitive places will always get applicants from the top tier MD schools with 250s/260s+ on their board scores with 10 publications or other differentiating factors that put them on a different level than the traditional med student. While auditions do help somewhat (and imo, very negligible), your ERAS application, MSPE, board scores, LoR's, extracurriculars that demonstrate leadership and/or research, and interview matter more. I believe what auditions can do is actually hurt you because they're more likely to spot your flaws (and again, this is specialty dependent.) One thing I've learned is that people will generally remember your flaws and not your achievements.

If you even think about it, each residency program interviews at least at a 10:1 spot ratio, which amounts to hundreds of applicants per cycle. They can only audition maybe 10, maybe 20 max students per year. Also, they know that the incoming intern (and even medical student) most likely knows nothing, as every hospital system is different in their management of patient cases and the EMR is most likely new for them.

During the interview season, I had classmates who were very strong applicants, did well on their auditions, but at the interview, the interviewer degraded the DO degree and asked them why they went to a DO school and not an MD school. Some places will always have that bias regardless if you were a star or not.

Again, this is anecdotal, but my classmate who matched into NYP Columbia and Cornell for EM did NOT do his/her auditions there. I'll tell you though, the people who did match into top tier residency programs at my school deserved it. They went above and beyond and had special extracurricular activities that differentiated them from other candidates.

Look at the NRMP Program Director Survey. You can even see performance on auditions is only 58% as a citing factor in ranking applicants, well below the other things I have listed.

 

[Goro]

For the rest of you at schools that have instituted similar nonsensical policies, there is power in numbers. Changes can be made if a large cohort of the class submits complaints.

Indeed. My students, when acting collectively and loudly, have gotten Deans fired. Very sorry to hear of your school's foolish decisions and the grief it caused you, Grey. I expected better from your school.

Now, I know that some of you have been kowtowed into submission with threats of Professionalism complaint, but there is safety in numbers.

EDIT:
The stupidity of D.O schools never fails to deliver

SOME DO schools, thank you. There are plenty that look out for their own. Sadly, there are some that routinely torment their students. Talking at you, LMU and LUCOM

 

[Neopolymath]

Indeed. My students, when acting collectively and loudly, have gotten Deans fired. Very sorry to hear of your school's foolish decisions and the grief it caused you, Grey. I expected better from your school.

Now, I know that some of you have been kowtowed into submission with threats of Professionalism complaint, but there is safety in numbers.

EDIT:
The stupidity of D.O schools never fails to deliver

SOME DO schools, thank you. There are plenty that look out for their own. Sadly, there are some that routinely torment their students. Talking at you, LMU and LUCOM

My school will not do the right thing even when confronted by classwide disagreement and it's not even on your list of schools you wouldn't recommend lol.

 

[Mass Effect]

For those of us banking on audition rotations yes it is. I've got no issues with finishing my remaining core(s) after audition and interviews are over, but to make us do them in the summer/early fall dramatically will have an impact on our ability to match.

You'll get to do audition rotations. You have 7 "electives" and two are now being taken up with cores. You can do 5 auditions. Do you really need more than that? That takes you from July, August, September, October, and November. I'd argue that students are done with rotations by then anyway.

Whatever. It’s still something we pay for. I don’t need all eight slices of pizza but when I order a large pizza and it comes out with five slices the waiter better not say “Yeah but nobody really needs all eight slices.”

Theres nothing wrong with wanting what’s yours.

It's not "yours" unless your school gives it to you. Arguing for tuition refund is one thing, but arguing for skipping core rotations so you can have all those electives just sounds ridiculous.

 

[Ho0v-man]

You'll get to do audition rotations. You have 7 "electives" and two are now being taken up with cores. You can do 5 auditions. Do you really need more than that? That takes you from July, August, September, October, and November. I'd argue that students are done with rotations by then anyway.



It's not "yours" unless your school gives it to you. Arguing for tuition refund is one thing, but arguing for skipping core rotations so you can have all those electives just sounds ridiculous.

Agree to disagree. If I pay for something, then I think it’s something I’m entitled to. A lot of students, myself included, picked our school over others because of the robust elective options. This move drastically hurts people in audition heavy fields as has been mentioned in this thread. I’m not sure if you’re indifferent to that fact or just ignorant but it doesn’t matter because this is just the truth. Furthermore, the students who haven’t figured everything out by the end of third year count on this time to explore fields not related to the typical core rotations. I think they’d argue they need that time. Personally, I was counting on exploring different fields with elective time to broaden my knowledge base on areas that pertain to my chosen field.

But even if you purely want that time to find “chill” rotations and take it easy, that’s fine too. It’s literally one of the only good things about the whole process and we’re still paying a fortune for it.

For the record, I don’t think we should just skip something like things that pertain to our intern year such as critical care or pick to ignore “hard” rotations. But are you really going to sit here and argue that an aspiring surgeon should do a third rural FM rotation? How about if an aspiring pathologist does a second OMM rotation or a geriatrics rotation? I get the argument that compromises are going to have to be made. But I think in these trying times a little common sense by admin on what’s actually going to be important to their students next year will go a lot farther than just doing what they always do because that’s what’s easiest for them.

 

[Neopolymath]

Agree to disagree. If I pay for something, then I think it’s something I’m entitled to. A lot of students, myself included, picked our school over others because of the robust elective options. This move drastically hurts people in audition heavy fields as has been mentioned in this thread. I’m not sure if you’re indifferent to that fact or just ignorant but it doesn’t matter because this is just the truth. Furthermore, the students who haven’t figured everything out by the end of third year count on this time to explore fields not related to the typical core rotations. I think they’d argue they need that time. Personally, I was counting on exploring different fields with elective time to broaden my knowledge base on areas that pertain to my chosen field.

But even if you purely want that time to find “chill” rotations and take it easy, that’s fine too. It’s literally one of the only good things about the whole process and we’re still paying a fortune for it.

For the record, I don’t think we should just skip something like things that pertain to our intern year such as critical care or pick to ignore “hard” rotations. But are you really going to sit here and argue that an aspiring surgeon should do a third rural FM rotation? How about if an aspiring pathologist does a second OMM rotation or a geriatrics rotation? I get the argument that compromises are going to have to be made. But I think in these trying times a little common sense by admin on what’s actually going to be important to their students next year will go a lot farther than just doing what they always do because that’s what’s easiest for them.

Well said. The main beef with OP's predicament is the idea that he needs 6 (or whatever it is) primary care rotations that just happen to be named different things despite being the same rotation over and over. That time is better used on many more important things ESPECIALLY if the student is going into primary care like OPs school thinks is important. These people need to do electives more than anyone else to have the knowledge base to be good at primary care. Either way, the school is straight wrong. No one is suggesting that someone at Grey's school not do their IM rotation or whatever that strawman was.

 

[Mass Effect]

Agree to disagree. If I pay for something, then I think it’s something I’m entitled to. A lot of students, myself included, picked our school over others because of the robust elective options. This move drastically hurts people in audition heavy fields as has been mentioned in this thread. I’m not sure if you’re indifferent to that fact or just ignorant but it doesn’t matter because this is just the truth. Furthermore, the students who haven’t figured everything out by the end of third year count on this time to explore fields not related to the typical core rotations. I think they’d argue they need that time. Personally, I was counting on exploring different fields with elective time to broaden my knowledge base on areas that pertain to my chosen field

This is not a problem unique to med students. We ALL had different plans for these months. Every single one of us. Request partial tuition refund and I'd support that. But I don't support missing core rotations so you can do more electives. It's not that I don't understand, that I'm indifferent, or that I'm ignorant. I get it and it sucks that it's eaten into your fourth year, but suggesting that people are ok passing 3rd year without a single month on IM wards is just ridiculous. It would be like saying (back in the day that all instruction was in the classroom) that MS 1s who were supposed to take renal in May can just skip it and move on to 2nd year curriculum. There's a reason things are required.

But even if you purely want that time to find “chill” rotations and take it easy, that’s fine too. It’s literally one of the only good things about the whole process and we’re still paying a fortune for it

At the expense of IM wards? Dude, that sounds absurd.

For the record, I don’t think we should just skip something like things that pertain to our intern year such as critical care or pick to ignore “hard” rotations. But are you really going to sit here and argue that an aspiring surgeon should do a third rural FM rotation? How about if an aspiring pathologist does a second OMM rotation or a geriatrics rotation? I get the argument that compromises are going to have to be made. But I think in these trying times a little common sense by admin on what’s actually going to be important to their students next year will go a lot farther than just doing what they always do because that’s what’s easiest for them.

I agree that they should be flexible in what they require, but I'm talking only about CORE MS3 rotations -- ward months on med/surg floors, psych, OB, outpatient FM, etc.

 

[Mass Effect]

No one is suggesting that someone at Grey's school not do their IM rotation or whatever that strawman was.

It's not a strawman. It's stated word-for-word in this very thread.

"I will likely finish my 8 weeks of IM without ever stepping foot into a hospital (April/May)"

 

[Ho0v-man]

It's not a strawman. It's stated word-for-word in this very thread.

"I will likely finish my 8 weeks of IM without ever stepping foot into a hospital (April/May)"

We’re actually in more agreement than you think. Yeah third year cores need to happen. The IM wards might have been the only valuable part of my third year. The topic is 4th year electives being infringed upon in the name of yet another rural FM rotation. Things that are basically repeats of third year but renamed something else have no business cutting into our electives unless they actually help progress toward functioning as an intern and most of that fluff doesn’t do that.

It’s like if a school gives 3 months of dedicated for step 1. Most would argue that’s way too long but if I was a student counting on using that time as I saw fit I promise I’d complain if my school tried to fill it with nonsense.