Neil deGrasse Tyson is now on my ****list

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5X64QCDVnI

Well, not really. But I think it's a little ridiculous that he blames this on "bad doctors". It's gratuitous. Sure, that is one possibility - the other is that survival rates are simply median values. Of course some percentage of people diagnosed are going to surpass that value. That has nothing to do with having an "idiot doctor" As usually happens when very intelligent people get out of their depth, I think he goes out too far on a limb here and it's just foolish. Actually, another celebrated scientist, Stephen J. Gould, who was diagnosed with mesothelioma and given about 8 months to live, wrote a really moving and thoughtful essay about this very phenomenon. He approaches the topic more seriously and is far more charitable to his physicians. Check it out:

The Median Isn't the Message


But major lulz at him downing the intelligence of premeds... no argument on that point.
 
He also doesn't seem to realize that those premeds who failed physics probably didn't become doctors.
 
The Bunk said:
He also doesn't seem to realize that those premeds who failed physics probably didn't become doctors.
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👍👍👍

Also he didn't even mention the MCAT and how hard of a test it is.
 
I think he's making a joke. He's a public speaker but he's also published real science, and I'm sure he's smart enough to understand that science and medicine aren't dead-on accurate. That is, diagnoses aren't exact, they're just estimations based on a patient's current condition in comparison to statistical analyses of typical outcomes.
 
Tyson lives in a rarefied world in which the only intelligent people are: Him, his reddit-based legion of fans, and a small cadre of atheist basic hard science researchers.
 
I'm pretty surprised that, as a scientist, he would completely disregard the research and statistics behind those kinds of diagnoses, so that makes me want to agree that it's more of a joke/exaggerated commentary. He obviously knows that there's not some objective test you can use that spits out a terminal patient's survival time. I'd be interested in seeing the rest of the talk this excerpt is from...I have a feeling the whole talk is probably focused on atheism or religion vs. science, and he just used this little doctor scenario to highlight how people think it's a miracle when they live longer than the doctors tell them.

Also I lol'd when he said the AMA must be the most powerful organization in the world. :laugh:
 
pyrrion89 said:
Tyson lives in a rarefied world in which the only intelligent people are: Him, his reddit-based legion of fans, and a small cadre of atheist basic hard science researchers.
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Yeah...I don't think so. Those kids just "love science" because they like to look at pretty pictures of space, maybe with a pretentious intellectual quote attached and a picture of Carl Sagan faded in the background.
 
I'm disgusted by the way this man is worshiped. Just reading through the comments in any of his videos makes me want to vomit.
 
It's been my observation that physicists seem to be the most poorly informed scientists when it comes to other branches of science beyond their own, and yet they're also the most arrogant about their general knowledge of science.

Also, it's best to disregard the thoughts of celebrity scientists whose function more as entertainers than actual scientists in their careers.
 
A pretentious physicist that thinks he's smarter than everyone else?

Never seen one of those before.
 
So this physicist who has no training at all in the complexity of medical science and being a physician thinks he's qualified to call doctors idiots? Besides, does he even know that it's PhD's that do most medical research and teach at medical schools? Seriously, this ******* is becoming so pompous nowadays it's sickening.
 
The only things more pompous than a premed are physicists and engineers
 
amazing tekkers said:
I'm disgusted by the way this man is worshiped. Just reading through the comments in any of his videos makes me want to vomit.
Click to expand...

+1

I feel like I'd have to wear a fedora and show my r/atheism subscription to be allowed into one of these discussions, from reading the comments
 
pyrrion89 said:
Tyson lives in a rarefied world in which the only intelligent people are: Him, his reddit-based legion of fans, and a small cadre of atheist basic hard science researchers.
Click to expand...

I thought this was stand-up at first
 
I like Neil.
I also like dragons, turtles, sharks, dinosaurs, and stuff like that.
 
Guys, its a joke overall. The talk is from The Amazing Meeting (TAM) which is a skeptical meeting and I'm fairly certain that the overall point he is trying to make is not that doctors are idiots. It's that people will survive a terminal illness longer than their predicted "6 months" for example and then use that as a proof that god exists, when it is really a result other factors such as statistical/biological variation, or even an incorrect diagnosis.

Yes he pokes some fun at doctors because that is the factor that he can make most humorous and stick with the people listening to the talk, but I wouldn't say he is trashing the medical profession overall. It's comedy, not a diatribe about how terrible it is that sometimes doctors make the wrong diagnosis.
 
cs24 said:
Guys, its a joke overall. The talk is from The Amazing Meeting (TAM) which is a skeptical meeting and I'm fairly certain that the overall point he is trying to make is not that doctors are idiots. It's that people will survive a terminal illness longer than their predicted "6 months" for example and then use that as a proof that god exists, when it is really a result other factors such as statistical/biological variation, or even an incorrect diagnosis.

Yes he pokes some fun at doctors because that is the factor that he can make most humorous and stick with the people listening to the talk, but I wouldn't say he is trashing the medical profession overall. It's comedy, not a diatribe about how terrible it is that sometimes doctors make the wrong diagnosis.
Click to expand...

He does generalizes it to the entire profession implying that the training is flawed.

Personally, I just think he is mad because some of his best students end up doing premed rather than going into physics.
 
SunsFun said:
He does generalizes it to the entire profession implying that the training is flawed.

Personally, I just think he is mad because some of his best students end up doing premed rather than going into physics.
Click to expand...

I highly doubt he is actually upset about that, if it is even true. If you really think that he gets so upset about premeds in his physics classes that he gives talks at national meetings to talk **** about the medical profession...then I don't know what else to tell you.

The rest of his comments about medical education are hyperbole for the sake of humor, as he is trying to make the point that sometimes doctors are wrong.
 
cs24 said:
I highly doubt he is actually upset about that, if it is even true. If you really think that he gets so upset about premeds in his physics classes that he gives talks at national meetings to talk **** about the medical profession...then I don't know what else to tell you.

The rest of his comments about medical education are hyperbole for the sake of humor, as he is trying to make the point that sometimes doctors are wrong.
Click to expand...

I was just guessing, I honestly don't care much about his opinion on premeds, medical students, or doctors.

It's not a hyperbole when he actually states that all doctors have one opinion that they learned in medical school and that the opinion is clearly wrong. The next thing he is saying is that med school in his classes keep failing. He basically wants the audience to connect the dots that the doctors maybe stupid not that God saved them. There is a better ways to make a point.

Why doesn't he go explain how dumb economists are because they failed to predict the recession? How they all failed his physics. (Unless he has done that already).

It was just a dumb and unnecessary point to make.
 
pyrrion89 said:
Tyson lives in a rarefied world in which the only intelligent people are: Him, his reddit-based legion of fans, and a small cadre of atheist basic hard science researchers.
Click to expand...

Pretty much.
 
cs24 said:
Guys, its a joke overall. The talk is from The Amazing Meeting (TAM) which is a skeptical meeting and I'm fairly certain that the overall point he is trying to make is not that doctors are idiots. It's that people will survive a terminal illness longer than their predicted "6 months" for example and then use that as a proof that god exists, when it is really a result other factors such as statistical/biological variation, or even an incorrect diagnosis.

Yes he pokes some fun at doctors because that is the factor that he can make most humorous and stick with the people listening to the talk, but I wouldn't say he is trashing the medical profession overall. It's comedy, not a diatribe about how terrible it is that sometimes doctors make the wrong diagnosis.
Click to expand...
His comment started reasonable in that he implied that people that are dumb will see justification of their religion when doctors make mistakes. That's not a problem. The problem is that he went on to **** on doctors in general and speak out of ignorance. There have been many times when doctors have misdiagnosed patients, missed signs, etc. because medicine is not absolute hard science, so when he says they are all trained the same, he doesn't account for the human factor. Besides, what is trained the same? Evidence based medicine isn't what he thinks all physicians should be trained with? Then he goes on a tirade about how idiotic pre-meds are. While it is true there are many idiotic pre-meds, he extends this to saying that all the idiots are now the idiot doctors; he ignores the fact that most pre-meds are weeded out and that the only reason that being a pre-med is so common is because of society's over-glorification of the field and its financial reward.
 
There are, in fact, idiot doctors who make bad diagnoses. His point is not that all doctors are idiots. It's that some people attribute the remission to an invisible bearded man instead of a potentially poor diagnosis. Stop getting so butthurt that he insulted premeds.
 
Will Parry said:
There are, in fact, idiot doctors who make bad diagnoses. His point is not that all doctors are idiots. It's that some people attribute the remission to an invisible bearded man instead of a potentially poor diagnosis. Stop getting so butthurt that he insulted premeds.
Click to expand...

Cool post. The obvious issue here is that you can outlive a correctly diagnosed median survival, because it's just that: a median. There is no reason necessarily to make any kind of judgment here about the competence of the physician. Check out the SJG essay I linked, I think he explains things clearly.

Again, I realize he was trying to be funny, and I wouldn't exactly say I'm butthurt, just kind of disappointed that someone who I respected as a thinker and public figure could be so coarse and misguided.
 
I really do not understand how this comes as a surprise to any of you. Most *biological science* PhDs have very little respect for pre-medical students (however, I too might be inclined to feel some resentment if I was tasked with teaching courses to pre-med science majors who would eventually choose to forgo my field of study and pick medical school instead.)

As a whole, physicists tend to be somewhat elitist (this mindset is nothing new; Ernest Rutherford once joked that "all science is either physics or stamp collecting.") In a way, this makes perfect sense: physicists tend to have very high IQs, and the scientific field of physics as a whole is broad and all-encompassing. Both of these factors combined may lead to some physicists to believe that they possess universal expertise in all areas of science (which is certainly not true).

In summary, the primary motivator behind the disdain that some PhDs have for MDs is the aforementioned "they are stealing our students" mentality. Many scientists who work at major universities dislike the fact that their courses are nothing more than prerequisites on the path to medical school; for example, only half of all biology majors actually choose to pursue an advanced degree in the life sciences. The other 50% of students (of course, most do not succeed) attempt to go to medical school; when/if they fail, they are simply subsumed into the workforce in jobs unrelated to their major. It does not matter if the students are successful in their attempt at medical school; no matter the outcome, the result is certainly lower enrollment in PhD programs.
 
Last edited:
Ten Tails said:
I really do not understand how this comes as a surprise to any of you. Most *biological science* PhDs have very little respect for pre-medical students (however, I too might be inclined to feel some resentment if I was tasked with teaching courses to pre-med science majors who would eventually choose to forgo my field of study and pick medical school instead.)

As a whole, physicists tend to be somewhat elitist (this mindset is nothing new; Ernest Rutherford once joked that "all science is either physics or stamp collecting.") In a way, this makes perfect sense: physicists tend to have very high IQs, and the scientific field of physics as a whole is broad and all-encompassing. Both of these factors combined may lead to some physicists to believe that they possess universal expertise in all areas of science (which is certainly not true).

In summary, the primary motivator behind the disdain that some PhDs have for MDs is the aforementioned "they are stealing our students" mentality. Many scientists who work at major universities dislike the fact that their courses are nothing more than prerequisites on the path to medical school; for example, only half of all biology majors actually choose to pursue an advanced degree in the life sciences. The other 50% of students (of course, most do not succeed) attempt to go to medical school; when/if they fail, they are simply subsumed into the workforce in jobs unrelated to their major. It does not matter if the students are successful in their attempt at medical school; no matter the outcome, the result is certainly lower enrollment in PhD programs.
Click to expand...
Most of these life science people should realize the only reason they have food on their table is because there are doctors, dentists, optometrists, podiatrists, etc. that are applying the science so there is a demand for scientific advancements to happen. It's also the pre-health kids that keep their majors existing. They pay for all those classes. If they didn't have all these kids, their majors would be underfunded and would lose a number of students that do a PhD because they are pre-health failure stories. Besides, most lab work is Oompa Loompa repetitive work and luck that your project turns out something cool; only a select minority ever revolutionize the field with research methods.
 
TriagePreMed said:
Most of these life science people should realize the only reason they have food on their table is because there are doctors, dentists, optometrists, podiatrists, etc. that are applying the science so there is a demand for scientific advancements to happen. It's also the pre-health kids that keep their majors existing. They pay for all those classes. If they didn't have all these kids, their majors would be underfunded and would lose a number of students that do a PhD because they are pre-health failure stories. Besides, most lab work is Oompa Loompa repetitive work and luck that your project turns out something cool; only a select minority ever revolutionize the field with research methods.
Click to expand...

I disagree that biological scientists are wholly dependent upon healthcare professionals to sustain their field; university biology departments would not become bankrupt without the flood of pre-medical students (who, in about 52% of all cases, fail to gain enrollment in any medical school). Your argument is akin to saying that theoretical mathematicians/physicists should feel indebted to engineers because engineering is the practical application of mathematics/physics; pragmatic approaches may be necessary, but theoretical concepts also possess great power (even if the value of these concepts is occasionally questionable). Also, the goal of gaining more graduate students (and inevitably, more postdocs) is not solely for the purpose of training individuals who will revolutionize the field with amazing new research methods; on a basic level, having more people on hand to perform the "oompa loompa repetitive work" speeds up the process and provides centers of academic research with more "employees" to aid in the scientific process.
 
Ten Tails said:
I disagree that biological scientists are wholly dependent upon healthcare professionals to sustain their field; university biology departments would not become bankrupt without the flood of pre-medical students (who, in about 52% of all cases, fail to gain enrollment in any medical school). Your argument is akin to saying that theoretical mathematicians/physicists should feel indebted to engineers because engineering is the practical application of mathematics/physics; pragmatic approaches may be necessary, but theoretical concepts also possess great power (even if the value of these concepts is occasionally questionable). Also, the goal of gaining more graduate students (and inevitably, more postdocs) is not solely for the purpose of training individuals who will revolutionize the field with amazing new research methods; on a basic level, having more people on hand to perform the "oompa loompa repetitive work" speeds up the process and provides centers of academic research with more "employees" to aid in the scientific process.
Click to expand...

I think he's speaking more about what actually funds universities. I went to a very large public university, and almost ALL of the money being brought in was through the engineering department and the medical school/hospital. The basic sciences are absolutely necessary for engineering and medicine to advance, but without them they're kind of just science for science's sake and unfortunately that doesn't bring in a lot of money.
 
I think he is obviously trying to make his viewpoint look better at the expense of another publicly trusted group: physicians. Even if he knows what he's saying is absurd, he also knows that many others will see this and take it seriously. Fame and popularity often encourage us to say ignorant things. For the most part, he's harmless and not worth getting upset over.
 
Pretty sure you need calculus based physics everyday as a doctor. So if you cant pass physics or get anything lower than an A give the f up.
 
Koosalagoosagoo said:
Pretty sure you need calculus based physics everyday as a doctor. So if you cant pass physics or get anything lower than an A give the f up.
Click to expand...

Although I assume that this post is meant to be sarcastic, you do realize that the vast majority of radiation oncologists employ physics/calculus on a daily basis, right?
 
LuciusVorenus said:
I think he's speaking more about what actually funds universities. I went to a very large public university, and almost ALL of the money being brought in was through the engineering department and the medical school/hospital. The basic sciences are absolutely necessary for engineering and medicine to advance, but without them they're kind of just science for science's sake and unfortunately that doesn't bring in a lot of money.
Click to expand...

I do not doubt that engineering and medicine bring in the vast majority of the revenue at many public universities. However, as you acknowledge, is absolutely impossible to have any advances in medicine without basic science research. It is quite hasty to dismiss the entire biological sciences field as relatively unimportant and ancillary to "practical" medicine. Because of viewpoints such as these, labs simply are not receiving their proper share of funding from the government; in many ways, a lack of funding is contributing to the current stagnation in the biomedical research.
 
Ten Tails said:
I do not doubt that engineering and medicine bring in the vast majority of the revenue at many public universities. However, as you acknowledge, is absolutely impossible to have any advances in medicine without basic science research. It is quite hasty to dismiss the entire biological sciences field as relatively unimportant and ancillary to "practical" medicine. Because of viewpoints such as these, labs simply are not receiving their proper share of funding from the government; in many ways, a lack of funding is contributing to the current stagnation in the biomedical research.
Click to expand...

I wasn't saying that at all. I was just pointing out that both fields depend on each other, so for someone like Tyson to insult an entire field just to increase the value of his own is kind of counterproductive to his "make science popular" goal.

Also, I like how much time he spends talking about premeds. Of course there are bad premeds, just like there are bad undergraduate physics majors 🙄 Most of the people in my engineering classes would have made terrible doctors, and most of the premeds in my bio classes would have made terrible engineering students - doesn't mean each weren't intelligent in their own way.
 
Lol, dude is a highly esteemed researcher who doesn't understand median values? wtf?

At this point this guy is more a talking head than a scientist. He is physic's version of Dr. Oz.

And I have met some really dumb physics students, casual observation FTW.
 
tiedyeddog said:
Lol, dude is a highly esteemed researcher who doesn't understand median values? wtf?

At this point this guy is more a talking head than a scientist. He is physic's version of Dr. Oz.

And I have met some really dumb physics students, casual observation FTW.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. Oz went to some great schools just like Tyson did, but at the end of the day he's just Oprah's mouthpiece.
 
LuciusVorenus said:
Pretty much. Oz went to some great schools just like Tyson did, but at the end of the day he's just Oprah's mouthpiece.
Click to expand...

Ever watch NY Med? I was shocked to see Oz on there doing heart surgery.
 
Ten Tails said:
I do not doubt that engineering and medicine bring in the vast majority of the revenue at many public universities. However, as you acknowledge, is absolutely impossible to have any advances in medicine without basic science research. It is quite hasty to dismiss the entire biological sciences field as relatively unimportant and ancillary to "practical" medicine. Because of viewpoints such as these, labs simply are not receiving their proper share of funding from the government; in many ways, a lack of funding is contributing to the current stagnation in the biomedical research.
Click to expand...
As someone pointed out, my initial statement was about what funds schools. It's not about what's cool and interesting in science. Believe me, I love science and would like to know more including things that will have no relevance to my career just for the sake of knowing. However, that doesn't mean that I wasn't right. Even basic scientists are on the bandwagon where they receive money thanks to the possible applications. If you look at fields like ancient history or paleontology, you'll see there's nearly no money there because there's no physician/engineer equivalent that applies that research to things that are making money.
 
tiedyeddog said:
Lol, dude is a highly esteemed researcher who doesn't understand median values? wtf?

At this point this guy is more a talking head than a scientist. He is physic's version of Dr. Oz.

And I have met some really dumb physics students, casual observation FTW.
Click to expand...

Nope. No no no no no.

Dr. Oz goes on TV promoting alternative medicine therapies that don't work to millions of people. Tyson does nothing near that bad. He is in fact against medical therapies that don't have evidence behind them.
 
His point was that people are more likely to believe religion saved them than a doctor being wrong. Doctors can be wrong. He was stressing the point by joking that "idiot doctors" could make a mistake, he even said it could possibly be diagnostic errors. I'm not offended by this at all, I agree with him regarding his take on religious people. I think that was the only point of his statement, it wasn't a blow on doctors.
 
Lol @ all the butthurt people itt.... tyson is right.

he's also right about the intelligence of premeds.... I was in a physics class with mostly engineers, but almost all the premeds stuck out like a sore thumb (they turned out to the people who asked all the unnecessary questions during lecture). A lot of them couldnt think through a problem, but instead memorized all the different methods of solving problems and blindly applied them.
 
Roshan said:
His point was that people are more likely to believe religion saved them than a doctor being wrong. Doctors can be wrong. He was stressing the point by joking that "idiot doctors" could make a mistake, he even said it could possibly be diagnostic errors. I'm not offended by this at all, I agree with him regarding his take on religious people. I think that was the only point of his statement, it wasn't a blow on doctors.
Click to expand...

Yes, this exactly.
 
ComfortCreature said:
Ever read the comments on anything on YouTube?
Click to expand...

Here's a fun challenge you can take part in: Try making a Youtube comment SO DUMB that people realize you must be joking.

Hint: This is impossible.
 
Roshan said:
His point was that people are more likely to believe religion saved them than a doctor being wrong. Doctors can be wrong. He was stressing the point by joking that "idiot doctors" could make a mistake, he even said it could possibly be diagnostic errors. I'm not offended by this at all, I agree with him regarding his take on religious people. I think that was the only point of his statement, it wasn't a blow on doctors.
Click to expand...

Do you actually watch the video?
 
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