• AMA with Certified Student Loan Professional

    Join SDN on December 7th at 6:00 PM Eastern as we host Andrew Paulson of StudentLoanAdvice.com for an AMA webinar. He'll be answering your questions about how to best manage your student loans. Register now!

Neuropsychology specialization with a Ph.D. in counseling psychology

derekream

Full Member
Feb 14, 2013
41
1
Dallas, TX
www.facebook.com
  1. Psychology Student
    I am trying to research to see how probable is it to specialize in neuropsychology with a Ph.D. in counseling psychology. I had a professor at UNT whom obtained his Ph.D. from University of Houston in counseling psychology but did a post-doc or some type of internship in neuropsychology.

    Also, if someone could educate me on the pathway to being a neuropsychologist. I searched the APA div. 40 website and it included Ph.D. programs with built-in tracks, internships and post-doc programs. How does one become a licensed neuropsychologist (other than getting the Ph.D.)?
     
    About the Ads

    Therapist4Chnge

    Neuropsych Ninja
    Moderator Emeritus
    Verified Expert
    15+ Year Member
    Oct 7, 2006
    21,961
    3,313
    The Beach
    1. Psychologist
      For doctoral training, you'll be fine as a Clinical or Counseling psychologist. However, you'll run into more issues if you try it after attending a School psychology program (much less likely) or a Counseling program (impossible). The training experiences for counseling and clinical psych programs are now more similar than different.
       

      AcronymAllergy

      Neuropsychologist
      Volunteer Staff
      10+ Year Member
      Verified Expert
    • Jan 7, 2010
      8,362
      3,522
      1. Psychologist
        To add to what T4C has said and linked, the quick-and-dirty path nowadays that most (although not all) people follow into neuropsychology is:

        1) Obtain a doctorate in clinical psychology, usually with some degree of neuropsychology training in addition to a good bit of general clinical psychology (many/most people do not attend programs with specific tracks, nor do they obtain doctorates in clinical neuropsychology)

        2) En route to finishing #1, complete an internship with some degree of neuropsychology training based in part on how much neuropsych you had in grad school (e.g., if you had limited neuropsych training at your grad program, you'll need to focus on getting much more while on internship)

        3) After #'s 1 and 2, complete a two-year postdoctoral fellowship in clinical neuropsychology. To be board-eligible, in general, you'll need more than half of your time during that fellowship to be spent in clinical activities

        4) Obtain boarding in neuropsychology (optional, but becoming the norm)

        You're still licensed as a psychologist, as the licensing is based on state law, and most states don't have separate provisions for the protection of the term "neuropsychologist" (Louisiana is the only one I remember hearing about).
         

        NeuroTrope

        Full Member
        7+ Year Member
        Feb 12, 2013
        136
        36
        1. Psychology Student
          I am trying to research to see how probable is it to specialize in neuropsychology with a Ph.D. in counseling psychology. I had a professor at UNT whom obtained his Ph.D. from University of Houston in counseling psychology but did a post-doc or some type of internship in neuropsychology.

          Completely possible - I know many interns and fellows who were in counseling programs. A few fellowships may prefer clinical, but not that many and I think in the years to come the distinction will further go down.

          The earlier you start to specialize, the more competitive you'll be for the next step, but the fellowship is really the only crucial step to be boarded. Even at that level, there's some flexibility. You can complete the fellowship at half time and submit your materials in four years, for example. Clinical research tracks sometimes go this route. For example, some fellowships provide 20-25% clinical delivery. There are ways to navigate this. First, 20-25% translates into a 40 hour work week. If you are pulling 80 hour work weeks - like some research positions do - then 25% suddenly becomes 20 hours of clinical delivery. This is NOT really a good way to do it. You can also do the requisite 10 hours of clinical delivery over four years if you don't mind the delay. Finally, some fellowships have built clinical delivery through their research projects, and through this you can document sufficient hours. The main disadvantage with the latter point is that if the research focuses on a specific population, you won't get much broad training and this can affect your ability to pass the boards.

          You can even specialize without an official fellowship if 1) you can find a boarded neuropsychologist to supervise you and 2) your practice involves a substantial degree of neuropsychology work. However, it is harder to accomplish this and you must carefully document your hours.
           

          cervello

          Full Member
          Nov 19, 2010
          102
          1
          1. Psychology Student
            As a soon-to-be graduate from a Counseling Psych PhD program who just matched to an APPCN post-doc yesterday :)soexcited:), I will say that it is absolutely possible. As has been mentioned, you may run into a few internship/post-doc programs that have strong biases against Counseling Psych folks (I can think of 3 or 4 that I've run into; one interviewer I met at an internship site actually said, "Oh! Counseling Psych?! What does that mean exactly? I don't think we've ever interviewed anyone from that type of program..."), but I think that's a perspective that's dying a bit. I've talked with a few well known & respected neuropsychologists about this issue, and their reaction has essentially been an eyeroll toward the notion of a big difference in training between clinical/counseling program. And now that I think about it, the post-doc I matched to actually states that they prefer clinical programs over counseling on their APPCN member page.
             
            • Like
            Reactions: 1 user

            VAneurodoc

            Full Member
            May 7, 2012
            72
            1
            1. Psychologist
              Awesome, I read it (while on Ambien) and it sort of answered my question, but left me wondering if counseling psychologists can pursue or be admitted into internship or post-doc programs in neuropsychology.

              As others have said it is totally doable. I will add that some counseling psych programs have a strong curriculum on psychological testing and often emphasize psychometrics. I know a few neuropsychologists, and had a few students, from counseling psych programs who were far more knowledgeable in this area than their clinical Ph.D. counterparts. In fact, it is often a glaring weakness for many neuropsychologists.
               

              derekream

              Full Member
              Feb 14, 2013
              41
              1
              Dallas, TX
              www.facebook.com
              1. Psychology Student
                This is great insight, I am scouting out the possibilities of my future career. I am in the phase of taking a GRE prep class at UT-Dallas, will take the GRE and apply to some counseling and clinical psychology programs. From the statistics I have been seeing across the board in programs both in and outside of Texas, the clinical path may not be possible, as my CGPA is not a 3.7+, it is around a 3.3-3.4 with a 3.66 psychology GPA (which was my minor) and a 3.7 GPA in sociology (which was my major).

                With that being said, I love psychology, I majored in sociology because the department in which psychology is housed had a requirement of 4 courses in a foreign language and a 3rd physical science course (physics, chemistry) that I was not wanting to do (lazy, I know). However, the courses in my psychology minor I completed were social, general,abnormal, personality, history and systems, developmental, and in my sociology major I took statistics and research and design. 97% of my grades were A's in my major and minor.

                Back on topic, I feel that I may have to go the counseling psychology path (which I wouldn't mind either way), but I just want to make sure that whatever I decide, I have the ability to go into neuropsychology later in my career.
                 

                AcronymAllergy

                Neuropsychologist
                Volunteer Staff
                10+ Year Member
                Verified Expert
              • Jan 7, 2010
                8,362
                3,522
                1. Psychologist
                  This is great insight, I am scouting out the possibilities of my future career. I am in the phase of taking a GRE prep class at UT-Dallas, will take the GRE and apply to some counseling and clinical psychology programs. From the statistics I have been seeing across the board in programs both in and outside of Texas, the clinical path may not be possible, as my CGPA is not a 3.7+, it is around a 3.3-3.4 with a 3.66 psychology GPA (which was my minor) and a 3.7 GPA in sociology (which was my major).

                  With that being said, I love psychology, I majored in sociology because the department in which psychology is housed had a requirement of 4 courses in a foreign language and a 3rd physical science course (physics, chemistry) that I was not wanting to do (lazy, I know). However, the courses in my psychology minor I completed were social, general,abnormal, personality, history and systems, developmental, and in my sociology major I took statistics and research and design. 97% of my grades were A's in my major and minor.

                  Back on topic, I feel that I may have to go the counseling psychology path (which I wouldn't mind either way), but I just want to make sure that whatever I decide, I have the ability to go into neuropsychology later in my career.

                  As has been mentioned, it's definitely possible to go into neuropsychology with either a clinical or counseling psych degree. And with respect to TX, Houston in particular has a very rich neuropsych history and community.
                   

                  Therapist4Chnge

                  Neuropsych Ninja
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  Verified Expert
                  15+ Year Member
                  Oct 7, 2006
                  21,961
                  3,313
                  The Beach
                  1. Psychologist
                    As has been mentioned, it's definitely possible to go into neuropsychology with either a clinical or counseling psych degree. And with respect to TX, Houston in particular has a very rich neuropsych history and community.

                    Agreed.

                    As for stats..."fit" in research can make up for a slightly lower GPA or GRE score.
                     

                    Promotetruth

                    New Member
                    Mar 2, 2013
                    8
                    0
                      It seems possible to go into neuropsychology without any clinical or counseling training. I know someone who was trained as an experimental researcher in a field like experimental or physiological psychology. He got licensed in NY using his experimental credentials. In NY you have to be licensed to call yourself a psychologist even if you are an experimental psychologist doing research. NY does not distinguish specialty area on their licence but you have to show that you were trained in the specialty you intend to practice. Fro clinical, the requirements are specific to clinical. Yet once licensed the state leaves it up to the ethics of the licensed person to stay in their own areas-or get real training which I would assume to mean re-training in an actual program for those switching from experimental to clinical areas-- but they don't oversee much. This person stuck "Accredited program in clinical psychology" right below the line where he lists where he got his PhD. He spent a sabbatical testing in a psychiatric hospital under the "direction" of a friend and he returned to town as a "neuropsychologist".If challenged he would just shrug and say he is now affiliated with a clinical program. Fraud, yes but profitable I suppose. Sure beats having to take loads of clinical classes in intervention, assessment, ethics and doing an internship! I'm not suggesting this but saying that it certainly happens.
                       

                      AcronymAllergy

                      Neuropsychologist
                      Volunteer Staff
                      10+ Year Member
                      Verified Expert
                    • Jan 7, 2010
                      8,362
                      3,522
                      1. Psychologist
                        It seems possible to go into neuropsychology without any clinical or counseling training. I know someone who was trained as an experimental researcher in a field like experimental or physiological psychology. He got licensed in NY using his experimental credentials. In NY you have to be licensed to call yourself a psychologist even if you are an experimental psychologist doing research. NY does not distinguish specialty area on their licence but you have to show that you were trained in the specialty you intend to practice. Fro clinical, the requirements are specific to clinical. Yet once licensed the state leaves it up to the ethics of the licensed person to stay in their own areas-or get real training which I would assume to mean re-training in an actual program for those switching from experimental to clinical areas-- but they don't oversee much. This person stuck "Accredited program in clinical psychology" right below the line where he lists where he got his PhD. He spent a sabbatical testing in a psychiatric hospital under the "direction" of a friend and he returned to town as a "neuropsychologist".If challenged he would just shrug and say he is now affiliated with a clinical program. Fraud, yes but profitable I suppose. Sure beats having to take loads of clinical classes in intervention, assessment, ethics and doing an internship! I'm not suggesting this but saying that it certainly happens.

                        It sounds like he might've flat out lied to the licensed board in order to obtain a license as a psychologist. However, I do know that many/most/perhaps all state licensing boards allow individuals with degrees in non-clinical/school/counseling areas to use the term "psychologist" without being licensed with the stipulation that it ONLY occur in an academic setting or with regard to academic/research practices. Perhaps NY takes it a step further and actually issues licenses for something like non-practicing psychologists, and he then took this license, did some sort of cobbled together supervised "training," and then branded himself a neuropsychologist.

                        You're right, though, that the term "neuropsychologist" is only protected in a small number of states (Louisiana's the only one that springs to mind, although I believe there may be a couple more). This is one of the reasons that clinical neuropsych organizations are pushing so fervently to have boarding become a universal process.
                         

                        Promotetruth

                        New Member
                        Mar 2, 2013
                        8
                        0
                          An irony is that this guy is one who then became active in the certification movement-trying to keep out those without his pet neurology classes. NY requires you to be licensed if you, say, work in a pharmacological lab and want to call yourself a psychologist. He was first licensed when he was experimental and probably had to show that he had research experience consistent with that license. He's a snake but don't think he lied to get his initial license but certainly placing "accredited program" next to a university (Big 10) known to have an outstanding clinical program is deceptive since he did not attend that program. Cobbled would be a compliment to what he did. Oddly, when he first returned with his new found identity after a sabbatical colleagues expressed outrage, at least privately, but that has subsided over time and now I don't think even students realize he has no formal clinical training of any sort. I suppose even someone posing as a surgeon would gain acceptance if those in the know don't say anything and nothing goes terribly wrong.
                           

                          futureapppsy2

                          Assistant professor
                          Volunteer Staff
                          Lifetime Donor
                          10+ Year Member
                          Verified Expert
                          Dec 25, 2008
                          6,672
                          3,991
                            It sounds like he might've flat out lied to the licensed board in order to obtain a license as a psychologist. However, I do know that many/most/perhaps all state licensing boards allow individuals with degrees in non-clinical/school/counseling areas to use the term "psychologist" without being licensed with the stipulation that it ONLY occur in an academic setting or with regard to academic/research practices. Perhaps NY takes it a step further and actually issues licenses for something like non-practicing psychologists, and he then took this license, did some sort of cobbled together supervised "training," and then branded himself a neuropsychologist.

                            You're right, though, that the term "neuropsychologist" is only protected in a small number of states (Louisiana's the only one that springs to mind, although I believe there may be a couple more). This is one of the reasons that clinical neuropsych organizations are pushing so fervently to have boarding become a universal process.


                            I also think that the emphasis on boarding in neuro and rehab comes in part from their close ties with medicine and medical settings, where boarding is standard and expected (usually required) of physicians.

                            Does anyone know if this holds true for Peds psych as well?
                             

                            Therapist4Chnge

                            Neuropsych Ninja
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            Verified Expert
                            15+ Year Member
                            Oct 7, 2006
                            21,961
                            3,313
                            The Beach
                            1. Psychologist
                              Does anyone know if this holds true for Peds psych as well?

                              If you are part of medical faculty...it definitely applies, as the vast majority of all physicians are boarded and that is the expectation if you are faculty. Every hospital I have worked at requires the person be board eligible and pursue boarding within a defined period of time. While I work in both rehab and neuro, this also applies to non-neuro/rehab people on our faculty too. I was told it is related to the credentialing requirements and having privileges at a hospital, though YMMV. If you are on staff (but not considered faculty and/or classified as Allied Health staff), then it probably doesn't matter as much, though I'd still encourage you to get it because that is what is expected in a medical setting.
                               

                              psychyes93

                              Full Member
                              Apr 30, 2016
                              28
                              0
                              1. Pre-Psychology
                                As a soon-to-be graduate from a Counseling Psych PhD program who just matched to an APPCN post-doc yesterday :)soexcited:), I will say that it is absolutely possible. As has been mentioned, you may run into a few internship/post-doc programs that have strong biases against Counseling Psych folks (I can think of 3 or 4 that I've run into; one interviewer I met at an internship site actually said, "Oh! Counseling Psych?! What does that mean exactly? I don't think we've ever interviewed anyone from that type of program..."), but I think that's a perspective that's dying a bit. I've talked with a few well known & respected neuropsychologists about this issue, and their reaction has essentially been an eyeroll toward the notion of a big difference in training between clinical/counseling program. And now that I think about it, the post-doc I matched to actually states that they prefer clinical programs over counseling on their APPCN member page.

                                Hi--where did you go to complete your Counseling Psych PhD program?
                                 
                                About the Ads
                                This thread is more than 5 years old.

                                Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

                                1. Your new thread title is very short, and likely is unhelpful.
                                2. Your reply is very short and likely does not add anything to the thread.
                                3. Your reply is very long and likely does not add anything to the thread.
                                4. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
                                5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
                                6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
                                7. This thread is locked.