Neurosurgery ... Impossibly competitive?

[Paws]

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I was wondering about the competitiveness of neurosurgery. I have shadowed an awesome doc and since he was also a really decent guy, now I am seriously thinking about maybe trying for this as well. I totally love the brain and the nervous system, plus oncology.

To be honest, most surgeons and almost all neuros I have met have been really rough and exhausting and I thought: no way, not for me. I just felt flattened. But I really liked this guy and actually having an awesome mentor makes a really big difference. He made it seem really do-able, and even incredibly interesting. I am tough enough for the hard work, and I think personality wise I can hold my own with 'challenging' personalities. Also, I like the OR time and the hands on work.

So, women in neurosurgery? Will I get grief over being a woman? Any input from others who have done this? Is seven years a big turn off? Is there an age limit?

Thanks guys! I am begining second year and I know time goes so fast - I am trying to look into different fields I am interested in.

 

[chael]

I was wondering about the competitiveness of neurosurgery. I have shadowed an awesome doc and since he was also a really decent guy, now I am seriously thinking about maybe trying for this as well. I totally love the brain and the nervous system, plus oncology.

To be honest, most surgeons and almost all neuros I have met have been really rough and exhausting and I thought: no way, not for me. I just felt flattened. But I really liked this guy and actually having an awesome mentor makes a really big difference. He made it seem really do-able, and even incredibly interesting. I am tough enough for the hard work, and I think personality wise I can hold my own with 'challenging' personalities. Also, I like the OR time and the hands on work.

So, women in neurosurgery? Will I get grief over being a woman? Any input from others who have done this? Is seven years a big turn off? Is there an age limit?

Thanks guys! I am begining second year and I know time goes so fast - I am trying to look into different fields I am interested in.

I have heard that the match rate for NS is ~85% for graduating US seniors.

 

[curious1]

As the above poster quoted, the US Match rate is 85%. I'm sure that some of the other 15% were simply people who couldn't convince the NS departments that they could put up with 7 years of residency. So if you can convince them that you will stick it out, you should be absolutely fine. I have no idea why people think that NS is so competitive when in reality it's very easy to match into the field. From my perspective, not many medical students want to put up with the NS lifestyle, which is absolutely horrible... I have a Neurosurgeon in my family and I would not wish his situation on even my worst enemies! AND he constantly complains about the lack of interest in the field which leads them to rely on FMGs. Maybe in the future it will improve, but at the moment, the trend is pay=down and stress=up. Do yourself and anyone in your life who you love a favor and pick neurology or radiation oncology or an associated field. Maybe it's a cooncidence, but 85% is not only the NS Match rate... it's also the NS in residency/practice divorce rate!!! Honestly I don't understand who chooses NS these days.

 

[APACHE3]

Yes, NS is NOT as competitive as many think it is, not from a lack of academics, but mostly the lifestyle and BS, one has to put up with to become a NS. I'm an IMG (student), but I've done extensive rotations in the states, and I met lots of IMG's in the NS department, some even chairing the dept. But if thats your dream, go for it. I'm also a family man..and 7 years for a female, needs to be considered very carefully. Will you start a family during residency? Will you start it AFTER you finish (ie you worked 7 years just to take another year off, etc.) I don't envy the female doc when it comes to these decisions. I know they are tough. If I were younger, NS would have been top of my list, but I just don't want to do a 7 year residency after a SIX YEAR medical school!!!!(Europe)GL

 

[Blade28]

6 year medical school? That's including undergraduate studies though, no?

 

[Paws]

Wow, thanks for the feedback on this guys. I was really thinking it was so competitve and all, and that in surgery you just have no chance if you're a woman. Well, I know that women do surgery more and more these days but still. When I was shadowing the other day there was a female resident and she kept getting cr@p from the guys. But, even as a woman, I would have to say she was being a bit of a teenager and was not as mature as you could be. I felt like the guys were pushing her because she took it, and she didn't push back - or not very well. Like, when you joke around and tease, she just wasn't able to roll with it. Took herself too seriously.

Yep, then there is the lifestyle question. So, one day in the OR was cool and went by like a flash. How would it be after seven years in the OR, and what about family, etc.

Well, as a student you gotta ask the tough questions and start weeding out things you feel you can't do, things you love to do, and then stuff like lifestyle, etc.

Thanks for the awesome feedback !

 

[Malftap]

Hey Paws:

Neurosurgery is lifestyle and you have to decide if you want to persue it. My advice is to check out your school's neurosurgery program. Talk to the residents and the faculty and get an ideal of what it's like. Also find some guys in private practice to talk too. Don't worry about being a female. I know females in the field. Actually there is a female resident and staff member at my program.
Finally, don't let people fool you to thinking matching is a walk in the park. I can tell you by going through the match that there are a lot of bright applicants out there so if you want to really do it then start getting involve early. Like I say all the time on this forum....just take each piece of advice with a grain of salt and be mindful of whom the advice is coming from. Good luck on your decision and with 2nd yr. 🙂

 

[71263]

I have heard that the match rate for NS is ~85% for graduating US seniors.

I wonder, what was the avg board scores/gpa for those that matched?

 

[mpp]

The average board score for those that matched in neurosurgery last year was 235. The average for those that did not match was 214.

The full statistics are as follows for the 2005 match:

2005 Match
registered 346
cas participants 296
rank lists + W/D 257
ranked 222
matched 154
US seniors 134
US grads 4
IMG 15
Unmatched 84
Positions offered 156
filled 154
left 2
avg step 1 matched 235
unmatched 214
% matched AOA 21%
% matched PhD 13%
avg apps 38
avg interviews 10.3
avg offers 3.8
% matched 60%
% US Seniors matched 85%
% US Grads matched 22%
% IMGs matched 25%

 

[drrouz]

MPP, great stats, can you tell us the source and if there are stats such as you posted for general surgery?

 

[esth0001]

Hey Paws:

Neurosurgery is lifestyle and you have to decide if you want to persue it. My advice is to check out your school's neurosurgery program. Talk to the residents and the faculty and get an ideal of what it's like. Also find some guys in private practice to talk too. Don't worry about being a female. I know females in the field. Actually there is a female resident and staff member at my program.
Finally, don't let people fool you to thinking matching is a walk in the park. I can tell you by going through the match that there are a lot of bright applicants out there so if you want to really do it then start getting involve early. Like I say all the time on this forum....just take each piece of advice with a grain of salt and be mindful of whom the advice is coming from. Good luck on your decision and with 2nd yr. 🙂

I think you have to review your Calculus I. DO you understand what 85 % matched means?!! it means almost everybody matched!! you make it sound like dermatology or orthopedic surgery. these are 100X harder to match.

 

[drrouz]

I think you have to review your Calculus I. DO you understand what 85 % matched means?!! it means almost everybody matched!! you make it sound like dermatology or orthopedic surgery. these are 100X harder to match.

Don't be fooled by the fact that not everyone matched. I think there is a self weeding process, whereby only very strong candidates tend to apply and weaker candidates probably don't even try.

 

[Paws]

Wow, 235 versus 214. Hmmm ... only twenty points, but what a big difference.

Some of my classmates have been gunning in the library all summer studying for the boards - which are one year away. 😱

So, I have had an awesome summer doing research, working on my house, seeing my friends and making some new ones, nice tan from the outdoor swimming pool up at school, etc. Refreshed and ready for second year.

Well, I guess I'll see how neuroanatomy goes, and if I still love the brain after that. Lifestyle is important to me, but then, if you love what you do then you just tend to be happier and that spills over into your life. This guy I shadowed was a great guy and very normal. Went out to the cubscout camp as a cub leader with his son, and other really regular stuff. Plus he is friendly and has an excellent rep with staff, and everyone else. I have mostly only worked alongside men so that part seems no big deal to me. I like working with men and don't typically get any agro over it. I am a hard worker and that goes a long way I think. Male or female, hard working team players make the best colleagues.

Thanks for these great comments everybody!

 

[bigdan]

Paws-

Maybe you'd be interested in a book called "Walking out on the boys" or something like that, from a female neurosurgeon from a prominent west coast program (Stanford if I'm not mistaken). Good read, and she acheived TONS while there, but it does outline the troubles that she suffered during training and working. I think she ended up quitting the profession, so it's a bit of a sour note, but it may give you some additional insight.

dc

 

[powermd]

Well, I guess I'll see how neuroanatomy goes, and if I still love the brain after that. Lifestyle is important to me, but then, if you love what you do then you just tend to be happier and that spills over into your life.

I find it amusing when med students base their interest in a field on a basic science class. "Oh well, got a 'C' in anatomy.. I guess i shouldn't try for surgery." There is so much more to the life of a doctor than interest in the content of the field, particularly that which is covered in the basic sciences. If you had asked me during physiology or pharmacology if I would be interested in anesthesiology, because it draws heavily upon these subjects, I probably would have said no. However the actual practice of anesthesiology, not to mention the lifestyle, is incredibly cool. Despite the early mornings, I look forward to going to work every day, and I know lots of residents who feel similarly. Neurosurgery is a very cool field- you treat patients ranging from moribund to mostly healthy, in all age groups, you get to use a variety of fun toys in the OR, operate on the brain, and do truly life-saving surgeries. Of course, the price paid in lifestyle is well known. If you are a good match for this field it will be truly irrelevant whether or not you enjoyed or were good at memorizing anatomical structures in neuroanatomy class. If you love the field, you will have no problem learning these details when they become important to know. At this stage I think it would be more important to have an interest in the big research questions in the field, and a willingness to live a very vigorous lifestyle centered on your career.

 

[mpp]

MPP, great stats, can you tell us the source and if there are stats such as you posted for general surgery?

These statistics are only made public for the specialties that use the San Francisco Matching program. The NRMP does not distribute these types of statistics for their specialties using their program.

 

[Paws]

... If you are a good match for this field it will be truly irrelevant whether or not you enjoyed or were good at memorizing anatomical structures in neuroanatomy class. If you love the field, you will have no problem learning these details when they become important to know. At this stage I think it would be more important to have an interest in the big research questions in the field, and a willingness to live a very vigorous lifestyle centered on your career.

You know, I do love those cool power tools and I like doing my own home renovations. Watching them go into the brain, it was like something I might do on my house. Even the big cork screw drill! Lifestyle, what do I think I am doing now? My life is so much happier now that I am doing medicine, I am so busy as I can hardly believe it and yet - I am so incredibly happy. 🙂

I was also thinking that I like patients, but I sometimes feel overwhelmed by the idea of having to see 25 people a day, every day or whatever. Too many patients in my face! I like the idea of seeing a certain amount, and then time in the OR performing neat stuff that can really make a difference. Plus maybe being in an academic hospital and working with residents, etc. That to me is a neat balance. 'Vigorous lifestyle,' yup that sounds like me. I just really liked the OR environment and the people and the hushed quality of the hard work. I am also athletic and strong ... ok, I could go on and on with this !

 

[footcramp]

is the neurosurgery lifestyle significantly worse than general surgery? in residency? post-residency?

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

also be aware of the spinal aspect of neurosurg.. The patients that are treated by NS for back problems are chronic patients that can be miserable to deal with. you want narcotic seekers on disability, then spinal surgery is for you.

 

[PICA]

Paws-

Maybe you'd be interested in a book called "Walking out on the boys" or something like that, from a female neurosurgeon from a prominent west coast program (Stanford if I'm not mistaken). Good read, and she acheived TONS while there, but it does outline the troubles that she suffered during training and working. I think she ended up quitting the profession, so it's a bit of a sour note, but it may give you some additional insight.

dc

Another good book with a great glimpse into nsgy is "When the air hits your brain." Excellent read. 😴

 

[mpp]

is the neurosurgery lifestyle significantly worse than general surgery? in residency? post-residency?

In residency, the consensus is likely yes. The reason being is the large number of patients and the few number of residents. Most neurosurgery programs take only 1 or 2 residents per year and this is even at large academic centers that may take 8 or more categorical general surgery residents per year (not to mention the preliminary residents they have to spread the work). Many of the neurosurgery programs have exemptions from the 80-hour work week and even with the extra hours have a difficult time staying within the hour requirements for residents. However, as with any specialty, it is always program dependent.

After residency it is very dependent on the individual and the practice environment. I am sure the hardest-working psychiatry attendings work longer hours than some private-practice neurosurgeons.

 

[triquetras]

I was wondering about the competitiveness of neurosurgery. I have shadowed an awesome doc and since he was also a really decent guy, now I am seriously thinking about maybe trying for this as well. I totally love the brain and the nervous system, plus oncology.

To be honest, most surgeons and almost all neuros I have met have been really rough and exhausting and I thought: no way, not for me. I just felt flattened. But I really liked this guy and actually having an awesome mentor makes a really big difference. He made it seem really do-able, and even incredibly interesting. I am tough enough for the hard work, and I think personality wise I can hold my own with 'challenging' personalities. Also, I like the OR time and the hands on work.

So, women in neurosurgery? Will I get grief over being a woman? Any input from others who have done this? Is seven years a big turn off? Is there an age limit?

Thanks guys! I am begining second year and I know time goes so fast - I am trying to look into different fields I am interested in.

Hey Paws-
I too am interested in neurosurgery as a career. Anytime I bring up the fact that I want to do NS everyone, I mean everyone, tries to dissuade me and I guess in the end they are only trying to help. I think at the end of the day you should explore every possible field that you might be interested in (ophtho..ortho...ent...neurology) and if you still can't kick the NS habit then your fate has been decided and you should just go for it. There is an increasing number of female residents and faculty members and I feel like if you can hold your own then your gender shouldn't be an issue. Also check out programs that look female friendly (ie they have female residents and/or faculty). Good luck!
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