New AA programs in Houston and Washington DC from CWRU

[Taurus]

Congratulations to CWRU for being a leader in advancing the AA profession. New AA programs in Houston, TX and Washington, DC.

http://www.anesthesiaprogram.com/default.htm

I have posted about other planned AA programs in the private forum.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[eugenierose]

Hunh... by the time I finish non-trad-ing it up, the DC program should be clear with CAAHEP. Could be an option.

 

[MRW]

The Houston program is already up and running with first year students. The DC program is accepting applicants for 2012.

 

[jwk]

Eighth program and counting!

 

[Taurus]

If you think about it, CWRU is being extremely smart by opening as many of these AA programs as it can. There's a huge demand from prospective students. For many premed-type students, CRNA programs take too long to go through when you factor in the nursing requirements. The AA path, like the PA route, just makes more sense if you already are in something health-related but not a nurse.

These programs will have no problem at all filling their classes.

I would imagine that other schools will want to emulate CWRU's success and model. My bet is on Johns Hopkins.

Yeah, if I were a CRNA, I would be wetting myself right about now too.

 

[cfdavid]

When I interviewed at CWRU, the chairman (whom had a hand in establishing these new AA programs) had a few "choice" words for CRNA's........

 

[24858]

Wow this is such great news. My hope is that the ASA can help AA legislation to be passed in every state so that they can practice in all states. It would be perfect for AA's to supplant CRNA's and for CRNA's to become a thing of the past. The best way to do this is for MD/DO's, refuse to use MDA/DOA this is CRNA b.s., to stop hiring and educating CRNAs, sure this is tough, but we all need to stick together in this or we all go down together. Long live MD/DO's and AA's, lets all work together to eliminate CRNAs !!!!!!!

 

[countingdays]

Wow this is such great news. My hope is that the ASA can help AA legislation to be passed in every state so that they can practice in all states. It would be perfect for AA's to supplant CRNA's and for CRNA's to become a thing of the past. The best way to do this is for MD/DO's, refuse to use MDA/DOA this is CRNA b.s., to stop hiring and educating CRNAs, sure this is tough, but we all need to stick together in this or we all go down together. Long live MD/DO's and AA's, lets all work together to eliminate CRNAs !!!!!!!

I mean come on... I'm all for AAs as an alternative to militant crnas, but I think the goal should be to preserve the ACT model (which is possible), not to eliminate crnas (which is not possible anyway).

 

[docsleeper]

This is excellent news. They should open up as many schools as possible and hopefully every state will reconigze them as they do PA's. THis along with public campaign is the key to saving our profession and maintaining respect as physicians instead of being looked at as nurses. ANd its our responsibility as the younger generation when we are in practice to hire AA's only and no crna's> that is not impossible especially in the states that reconigze them. CRna's wont completely dissappear but job market will be flooded and they will be forced to take lower paying jobs and except being supervised.

 

[WastedTime]

This is excellent news. They should open up as many schools as possible and hopefully every state will reconigze them as they do PA's. THis along with public campaign is the key to saving our profession and maintaining respect as physicians instead of being looked at as nurses. ANd its our responsibility as the younger generation when we are in practice to hire AA's only and no crna's> that is not impossible especially in the states that reconigze them. CRna's wont completely dissappear but job market will be flooded and they will be forced to take lower paying jobs and except being supervised.

so since AAs do the same thing as CRNAs does that mean AAs salary will go down as well?

 

[BLADEMDA]

so since AAs do the same thing as CRNAs does that mean AAs salary will go down as well?

Yes. I expect a 10-15% decrease in salary over the next few years as the market gets flooded with cheap labor from SRNA mills.

 

[Taurus]

so since AAs do the same thing as CRNAs does that mean AAs salary will go down as well?

I've long advocated that the best solution to CRNA militancy is a return to basic economics, ie, supply and demand. An increase in the supply of anesthesia midlevels will lead to a decrease in their salaries (which is more effective than anything else in getting their attention since as everyone knows money talks). Once the CRNA's are struggling for jobs, anesthesiologists can begin to demand that AA's get hired in their groups (over the objections of the financially weakened and scared CRNA's). Eventually, anesthesiologists can even replace their CRNA's with AA's. The goal should be at least 50% of AA's in most practice groups.

How will CRNA's respond by an increase in number of AA schools? They can reduce the CRNA pipeline so that the total number of anesthesia midlevels produced is reduced annually. However, AA's can take advantage of this by further increasing their number of schools. Hence, the CRNA's are in a lose-lose situation with the increasing number of AA schools. I'll try not to shed a tear for them.

I wonder if my posts and arguments over the years helped to influence some of these decision-makers regarding AA's. If so, I'm glad I was able to contribute.

 

[nycitygas]

Yes. I expect a 10-15% decrease in salary over the next few years as the market gets flooded with cheap labor from SRNA mills.

10-15% seems light. I would expect a drop from the 150s they sustain now to the what they got 15 years ago (90-100k) if they can get a job.
Im on SICU now and was talking to the nurses-the DNP/nurse practitioner market is totally saturated. The CRNA market is on the same path.

 

[btbam]

10-15% seems light. I would expect a drop from the 150s they sustain now to the what they got 15 years ago (90-100k) if they can get a job.
Im on SICU now and was talking to the nurses-the DNP/nurse practitioner market is totally saturated. The CRNA market is on the same path.

Starting AA salaries in saturated areas like Atlanta are nooowhere near 150, closer to that in rural areas/non-flooded markets...

 

[jwk]

I've long advocated that the best solution to CRNA militancy is a return to basic economics, ie, supply and demand. An increase in the supply of anesthesia midlevels will lead to a decrease in their salaries (which is more effective than anything else in getting their attention since as everyone knows money talks). Once the CRNA's are struggling for jobs, anesthesiologists can begin to demand that AA's get hired in their groups (over the objections of the financially weakened and scared CRNA's). Eventually, anesthesiologists can even replace their CRNA's with AA's. The goal should be at least 50% of AA's in most practice groups.

How will CRNA's respond by an increase in number of AA schools? They can reduce the CRNA pipeline so that the total number of anesthesia midlevels produced is reduced annually. However, AA's can take advantage of this by further increasing their number of schools. Hence, the CRNA's are in a lose-lose situation with the increasing number of AA schools. I'll try not to shed a tear for them.

I wonder if my posts and arguments over the years helped to influence some of these decision-makers regarding AA's. If so, I'm glad I was able to contribute.

Supply and demand always rules - it's surprising how many people never quite get that simple fact.

The CRNA's are in fact screaming at their professional organizations about the high number of CRNA's being cranked out. There are 800 SRNA's in Florida alone, many times over what that entire state would ever need to fill vacancies in various departments. North Carolina has six CRNA schools. Birmingham kicks out 100+ a year, as does Mayo.

But - while the market is tight in some areas for AA's as well, there's no doubt that we're benefitting from the anti-ASA / anti-anesthesiologist / pro-independent CRNA practice biases of the AANA and its state organizations. I certainly don't feel bad about that.

 

[deleted126335]

Supply and demand always rules - it's surprising how many people never quite get that simple fact.

The CRNA's are in fact screaming at their professional organizations about the high number of CRNA's being cranked out. There are 800 SRNA's in Florida alone, many times over what that entire state would ever need to fill vacancies in various departments. North Carolina has six CRNA schools. Birmingham kicks out 100+ a year, as does Mayo.

But - while the market is tight in some areas for AA's as well, there's no doubt that we're benefitting from the anti-ASA / anti-anesthesiologist / pro-independent CRNA practice biases of the AANA and its state organizations. I certainly don't feel bad about that.

I believe that the major ramping up of CRNA graduates and resulting drop of CRNA salaries was a calculated move on the part of CRNA leadership. The hope is to take a bite of the 25% or so of anesthesia that is MD only by making ACT practice more economically viable. Also smaller departments might go to a mixed model with the introduction of some cases being done by solo CRNAs, again all economically driven.

The drop in CRNA salaries was simply the cost of doing business. AANA leadership exists to serve the best interests of the profession of nurse anesthesia, no the best interests of this generation of CRNAs. Take a look at the CRNAs who you have known personally who become active in AANA and state societies. The ones that I have known have been overly motivated by rage directed at anesthesiologists. In their leadership roles they make decisions based on that rage far too much. They miscalculated. They are now feeling some blowback from their membership. The big mistake they made was not insisting that new programs be of the highest quality. Now they have got a lot of yoyos out there.

The big winners will be employers of CRNAs. Anesthesiologists who are not don't really stand to benefit much financially.

 

[Taurus]

The funny thing about CRNA's is that they like to argue that the number of AA schools has no effect on them. You can't get more naive than that. So we only have 8 schools officially in operation. Many more in the planning stages. So in reality, we are already in the double-digit number of AA schools opened or planned. That's from just 2 less than 10 years ago. I wonder at what point will most CRNA's start to agree that they have a problem. 20? 30? IMHO, the magic number is 20 is when CRNA's will feel a significant impact of AA's.

The great thing about AA schools is that there not one damn thing that CRNA's can do about it. The genie is out of the bottle. As long as the ASA supports them and the growing number of AA's lobby to work in every state, AA's will eventually become like the PA's - work in every state. Even if no more states approves AA's, there are enough states approved that if all the AA grads work in these states it will have a significant impact on CRNA's. When all 50 states approve, then anesthesiologists will truly have the option of choosing who they want to work with - CRNA's or AA's.

 

[ProRealDoc]

If you think about it, CWRU is being extremely smart by opening as many of these AA programs as it can. There's a huge demand from prospective students. For many premed-type students, CRNA programs take too long to go through when you factor in the nursing requirements. The AA path, like the PA route, just makes more sense if you already are in something health-related but not a nurse.

These programs will have no problem at all filling their classes.

I would imagine that other schools will want to emulate CWRU's success and model. My bet is on Johns Hopkins.

Yeah, if I were a CRNA, I would be wetting myself right about now too.

Ironically, Cleveland is the birthplace of the AANA. Now, thanks to CWRU, it may also become their grave.

 

[deleted126335]

Ironically, Cleveland is the birthplace of the AANA. Now, thanks to CWRU, it may also become their grave.

Uhm, last time I checked, they are winning.

 

[ProRealDoc]

Uhm, last time I checked, they are winning.

If you have nothing else to offer besides being a glorified CRNA, yeah, they'll beat you. Bring something else to the table and you'll win.

 

[SeoulMan]

Congratulations to CWRU for being a leader in advancing the AA profession. New AA programs in Houston, TX and Washington, DC.

http://www.anesthesiaprogram.com/default.htm

I have posted about other planned AA programs in the private forum.

I'm a second year AA student and have only heard of one other possible program opening up that will probably seriously happen. Could you possibly PM the other planned programs. I'm really curious to find out where these could be. I wouldn't mind teaching eventually in addition to clinical work.

 

[Endee]

This thread is all very encouraging, but the truth remains that many of us who are imminently graduating (in August) are still unemployed because groups don't seem interested in hiring us.

 

[btbam]

This thread is all very encouraging, but the truth remains that many of us who are imminently graduating (in August) are still unemployed because groups don't seem interested in hiring us.

I've heard the job market in FL is pretty terrible, confirm/deny?

 

[Endee]

I've heard the job market in FL is pretty terrible, confirm/deny?

In my personal experience, pretty terrible. Well, the main problem generally is that anesthesiologists who don't already employ AA's but employ CRNAs and have an ACT practice are resisting considering AAs for posted CRNA positions, even though we're licensed and functionally the same under the ACT model.

 

[deleted126335]

In my personal experience, pretty terrible. Well, the main problem generally is that anesthesiologists who don't already employ AA's but employ CRNAs and have an ACT practice are resisting considering AAs for posted CRNA positions, even though we're licensed and functionally the same under the ACT model.

I suspect so. The problem is the conflict that would ensue in introducing AAs into an ACT practice that has CRNAs. When they have one or two open positions, it would likely set off a **** storm to hire an AA or 2 in a department with 20 CRNAs. Short sighted, I agree. It is easier to run short handed for a little while. Current reality.

 

[jwk]

I suspect so. The problem is the conflict that would ensue in introducing AAs into an ACT practice that has CRNAs. When they have one or two open positions, it would likely set off a **** storm to hire an AA or 2 in a department with 20 CRNAs. Short sighted, I agree. It is easier to run short handed for a little while. Current reality.

That's really unfortunate considering the time and expense involved from FSA members in getting AA legislation pushed through Florida.

JMHO - most employees (in any job situation) are not going to quit to make a political statement. They have spouses with jobs, kids in schools, lots of friends. Those threats are largely hollow. If they quit - guess what - they can be replaced. The majority of practices where AA's have come in have done just fine.

 

[jwk]

I've heard the job market in FL is pretty terrible, confirm/deny?

A lot of the problem is maldistribution of anesthetists. Florida has 800 SRNA's. NC has six CRNA schools.

Florida's other issue is it's payor mix. Lots of CMS patients - probably a much higher percentage than other states, with fewer patients with private insurance.

 

[deleted126335]

That's really unfortunate considering the time and expense involved from FSA members in getting AA legislation pushed through Florida.

JMHO - most employees (in any job situation) are not going to quit to make a political statement. They have spouses with jobs, kids in schools, lots of friends. Those threats are largely hollow. If they quit - guess what - they can be replaced. The majority of practices where AA's have come in have done just fine.

Just a guess on my part. But I remember a few years ago the gnashing of teeth and rumors that needed to be dispelled that the mere receipt of a CV from an AA in our practice for an open position. They had already accepted another position by the time we offered an interview.

Jwk: You must know at least a few AAs that were the first in their department to "break the color line" so to speak. How did it go for them?

 

[Endee]

Jwk: You must know at least a few AAs that were the first in their department to "break the color line" so to speak. How did it go for them?

Based on the amount of emails/phone calls I'm making, I'm pushing hard for the Jackie Robinson award of anesthesia. Kidding aside, groups that use AA's are few, so they're known. I've been contacting tons of groups around Florida that readily are recruiting CRNAs, sending in my resume and mentioning the ASA statements on AA and NA practice, etc. Most are ignored, some are replied with informative statements such as "No AAs." It's really disappointing because I would be indistinguishable from a CRNA in practice at all of these places because they're all 100% directed ACT practices. None of them want to hire that first AA. Makes me wonder if they'll EVER hire that first AA. All I want is a fair competitive shot to interview and sell myself.

 

[Endee]

Jwk: You must know at least a few AAs that were the first in their department to "break the color line" so to speak. How did it go for them?

In addition, several of the places I've rotated at since I've been in school have had more CRNAs than AAs (since AA's are only in Florida since 2004, after all). Cleveland Clinic Florida has 1 AA and many CRNAs. One place in West Palm I've been to has 3 AA and like 8 CRNA. Another WPB place has 2 AA and 2-3 CRNA. I know of others that I haven't been to personally that have 1-2 AA and several CRNAs also. The answer to your question? Everyone works together fine. No one quits, no one sabotages anything. Everyone seems to work well together. That's why is frustrating when these other groups that happen to be hiring anesthetists point blankly refuse to let AAs compete for the jobs as if their entire practice environment would collapse if they hired one.

 

[btbam]

In addition, several of the places I've rotated at since I've been in school have had more CRNAs than AAs (since AA's are only in Florida since 2004, after all). Cleveland Clinic Florida has 1 AA and many CRNAs. One place in West Palm I've been to has 3 AA and like 8 CRNA. Another WPB place has 2 AA and 2-3 CRNA. I know of others that I haven't been to personally that have 1-2 AA and several CRNAs also. The answer to your question? Everyone works together fine. No one quits, no one sabotages anything. Everyone seems to work well together. That's why is frustrating when these other groups that happen to be hiring anesthetists point blankly refuse to let AAs compete for the jobs as if their entire practice environment would collapse if they hired one.

There's a listing on Gaswork right now for an all physician group in St. Petersburg looking to hire AAs if that helps. The Atlanta market is obviously very AA friendly, but it's sooo saturated. ~25% of my class is still jobless and we graduate in <6 weeks...

 

[Endee]

There's a listing on Gaswork right now for an all physician group in St. Petersburg looking to hire AAs if that helps. The Atlanta market is obviously very AA friendly, but it's sooo saturated. ~25% of my class is still jobless and we graduate in <6 weeks...

They want someone with experience, not a new grad.

 

[baller71457]

Based on the amount of emails/phone calls I'm making, I'm pushing hard for the Jackie Robinson award of anesthesia. Kidding aside, groups that use AA's are few, so they're known. I've been contacting tons of groups around Florida that readily are recruiting CRNAs, sending in my resume and mentioning the ASA statements on AA and NA practice, etc. Most are ignored, some are replied with informative statements such as "No AAs." It's really disappointing because I would be indistinguishable from a CRNA in practice at all of these places because they're all 100% directed ACT practices. None of them want to hire that first AA. Makes me wonder if they'll EVER hire that first AA. All I want is a fair competitive shot to interview and sell myself.

So in hindsight would you still have gone the AA route? If so, why?

 

[ProRealDoc]

The many community hospitals which comprise the Cleveland Clinic healh systems (Marymount, Euclid, Fairview, Hillcrest, Beachwood, Medina, Lutheran, etc) not including the main campus, are hiring AAs.

If any of any of you is interested in getting work experience before venturing to other jobs, this may be a good opportunity.

 

[Endee]

So in hindsight would you still have gone the AA route? If so, why?

I'd still do it and I still love the job. I'm just disappointed in the political climate in many areas.

 

[baller71457]

I'd still do it and I still love the job. I'm just disappointed in the political climate in many areas.

I guess what I'm asking is that if CRNA/AA are essentially the same in ACT practice, why not go CRNA? You've busted your hump and I'm guessing acquired a lot of debt only to be looked over simply because of your title. Although I'm sure you'll eventually find something

 

[Endee]

I guess what I'm asking is that if CRNA/AA are essentially the same in ACT practice, why not go CRNA? You've busted your hump and I'm guessing acquired a lot of debt only to be looked over simply because of your title. Although I'm sure you'll eventually find something

Because my bachelors degree was in science, not nursing.

 

[clarkbar]

Jwk, I think that both CRNAs and AAs are threatened by this oversupply, as they perform the same function. In pharmacy, the future market is bleak. The new pharm org president basially said, "Deal with it". The attrition will make us stronger". I dont agree with that assessment. You can have very intelligent people in the market, but if there is no new tasks, one is screwed.

Supply and demand always rules - it's surprising how many people never quite get that simple fact.

The CRNA's are in fact screaming at their professional organizations about the high number of CRNA's being cranked out. There are 800 SRNA's in Florida alone, many times over what that entire state would ever need to fill vacancies in various departments. North Carolina has six CRNA schools. Birmingham kicks out 100+ a year, as does Mayo.

But - while the market is tight in some areas for AA's as well, there's no doubt that we're benefitting from the anti-ASA / anti-anesthesiologist / pro-independent CRNA practice biases of the AANA and its state organizations. I certainly don't feel bad about that.

 

[Monty Python]

Jwk, I think that both CRNAs and AAs are threatened by this oversupply, as they perform the same function. In pharmacy, the future market is bleak. The new pharm org president basially said, "Deal with it". The attrition will make us stronger". I dont agree with that assessment. You can have very intelligent people in the market, but if there is no new tasks, one is screwed.

That's interesting, and shows how imprecise and subjective it is trying to guesstimate future supply and demand in just about any career field. The commanding officer of my reserve unit is a civilian pharmacist. Just a few years ago there were zillions of pharmacist openings all over the country.

If/when the economy bounces back, and soon-to-retire medical professionals recover their losses in their retirement accounts, I predict a huge shortage of workers as we see a wave of retirements.

 

[myhandsarecold]

Congratulations to CWRU for being a leader in advancing the AA profession. New AA programs in Houston, TX and Washington, DC.

http://www.anesthesiaprogram.com/default.htm

I have posted about other planned AA programs in the private forum.

ugh, more midlevels, funny how they actually compare MCATs of med school matriculants to the M.S. program matriculants

 

[theejay]

ugh, more midlevels, funny how they actually compare MCATs of med school matriculants to the M.S. program matriculants

fantastic

 

[24858]

My group is transitioning from all MD to a mixed model. My partners and I have spoken about how we would love to hire AAs, we r a young group and understand what AAs are, but unfortunately AAs can't practice in MA. Any way around this? If there is let me know and we will interview AAs.

 

[jwk]

My group is transitioning from all MD to a mixed model. My partners and I have spoken about how we would love to hire AAs, we r a young group and understand what AAs are, but unfortunately AAs can't practice in MA. Any way around this? If there is let me know and we will interview AAs.

I'll PM you.

 

[24858]

Awesome thx