Big Time Hoosier

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Germany, Europe’s largest economy, is projected to just eek by with 0.7% growth this year. But, hey, it’s still positive!


Big Hoss
 
Aug 3, 2018
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Germany, Europe’s largest economy, is projected to just eek by with 0.7% growth this year. But, hey, it’s still positive!


Big Hoss
slow growth is better than no growth lol
 
Jan 28, 2018
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Schools need more skin in the game when it comes to loans. If someone has to do the IBR, the school's should be on hook to pay for the tax bomb. The federal government is too incompetent to care they're losing money from it, but schools like USC and NYU will definitely hurt from it.
 

SnozzBerry

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My future son in law graduated from undergrad with a finance/computer software degree on a full ride scholarship. He now works for EPIC in Wisconsin. For those that do no know ... EPIC is a HUGE medical software company. An amazing campus that rivals google. Point is he will be making more than a 100K ....... his SECOND year of employment. Plus all the nice benefits that a well run company can offer. He has NO debt.

It's unfortunate that the entry costs to becoming a dentist is getting ridiculous. Especially for those predents with fewer in-state DS options.
Epic is well known for “overworking” their employees and their EPIC burnout rate lol. But it’s good while you last !
 

Rainee

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slow growth is better than no growth lol
No offense but this shows how little you know of world affairs. Germany was a global powerhouse on the world stage. Now they have negative interest rates, are nearing contraction in their production with zero sign of recovery and have deutsche bank that is going the way of Lehman’s.

Anyone with a pulse on the stock market and knows of the world conditions sees a huge problem with what their growth is at now. What you basically said is equivalent to saying “the earth is flat.”

I know this is off topic but I can’t help but answer to this question. With that being said, I recommend reading the effects on negative interest rates, stagflation, deflation, inflation, hyperinflation, modern monetary policy, the rise of bitcoin, Japan’s economy, the great financial crisis of 2008 and where we are at today. It’s interesting topic.
 
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After reading this article, I am both saddened and confused. On the one hand I applaud the hard work and determination it has taken both of these individuals to achieve what they already have. Only two percent of the world population has a college degree, and it appears that against overwhelming odds, these two have moved forward. Being the first in a family with a college degree is no small feat, and the lack of not only monetary resources, but real world experience in negotiating a college institution can be frustrating. I am confused by the final plunge into dental education. It is not a journey to be taken lightly, as it is both time consuming and very expensive....which is no secret. With a wife and family to support, I am not sure how this decision to incur such overwhelming debt with no back up support is reasonable. Sometimes dreams need to be put aside in favor of reality and responsibility. Although I have championed dental education reform and tuition rollback, it has not happened yet. Therefore, since this was a choice and not a requirement for living, and it appears that they were on their feet prior to dental school, I can not endorse this career change choice and the hope of complete student loan forgiveness. It's like anything else in life.....if you cannot pay for it, don't buy it. Responsibility is everyon's burden.
 

Star-Lord

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After reading this article, I am both saddened and confused. On the one hand I applaud the hard work and determination it has taken both of these individuals to achieve what they already have. Only two percent of the world population has a college degree, and it appears that against overwhelming odds, these two have moved forward. Being the first in a family with a college degree is no small feat, and the lack of not only monetary resources, but real world experience in negotiating a college institution can be frustrating. I am confused by the final plunge into dental education. It is not a journey to be taken lightly, as it is both time consuming and very expensive....which is no secret. With a wife and family to support, I am not sure how this decision to incur such overwhelming debt with no back up support is reasonable. Sometimes dreams need to be put aside in favor of reality and responsibility. Although I have championed dental education reform and tuition rollback, it has not happened yet. Therefore, since this was a choice and not a requirement for living, and it appears that they were on their feet prior to dental school, I can not endorse this career change choice and the hope of complete student loan forgiveness. It's like anything else in life.....if you cannot pay for it, don't buy it. Responsibility is everyon's burden.
Going to dental school when you have a spouse and children does not make someone irresponsible. Taking out $700,000+ in loans is the problem here, regardless or marital status.
 
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Cold Front

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I am confused by the final plunge into dental education.
I posted the reason behind the High cost of dental school at another thread.

In summary... see the graphic below that explains the issue. A) Dental schools fall under the parent university revenue, and it’s the parent university that sets all graduate programs tuition and fees (including dental school). A lot of factors goes into that... the big one is the enrollment of other programs, specifically the undergrad programs? Are they falling/going down (which they have been)? If so, the university balances the books by increasing tuition of other programs with high demand (dental, medical, and so on). B) As far as the government giving out blank checks, it’s part of national policy and investment to boost more graduates (specially in graduate programs) to stimulate the domestic economy, innovation and help US businesses/corporations be more competitive globally.

So it’s two issues that work hand in hand that leads to higher student loans. Debt is the necessary evil to help us get to the top, and everyone is expected to do their part in that goal.
 
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Jan 27, 2019
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I was born in a middle eastern war torn county to an extremely poor family but I made my way to the US no thanks to anyone. I wanted to be a dentist but I realized how expensive it is so I joined the military and today am an honorably discharged army veteran, a husband, a father, 29yo, and a year away from applying to dental school. With a combination of gibill and hazelwood act my entire education journey will be free cause I had a plan and didn’t feel like am owed free education with nothing in return. It infuriates me hearing about people getting hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans and than cry about it. You want free education, earn it!
 
Jan 28, 2018
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It infuriates me hearing about people getting hundreds of thousands in loans and than cry about it.
Imagine an entire generation of trusted adults telling 17 year old kids whose brains won't fully develop until they're 25 they have to go to college to get a job and then the government gives these naive kids loans regardless of the cost so the prices get completely jacked up. Now a generation of young people are too in debt to have kids or own anything because of the scam and colleges have become so saturated that many of the degrees have become worthless. Have some empathy.
 
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WOGTSTMK

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Going to dental school when you have a spouse and children does not make someone irresponsible. Taking out $700,000+ in loans is the problem here, regardless or marital status.
Okay.. I’m not seeing the difference between the guy in the article (612k student loan debt) and a graduate of USC in 3-4 years... can someone explain that to me? Are they irresponsible?
 

WOGTSTMK

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I was born in a middle eastern war torn county to an extremely poor family but I made my way to the US no thanks to anyone. I wanted to be a dentist but I realized how expensive it is so I joined the military and today am an honorably discharged army veteran, a husband, a father, 29yo, and a year away from applying to dental school. With a combination of gibill and hazelwood act my entire education journey will be free cause I had a plan and didn’t feel like am owed free education with nothing in return. It infuriates me hearing about people getting hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans and than cry about it. You want free education, earn it!
The tone of the article was more of “it would be great IF student loan debt were forgiven”. The author wasn’t advocating for it, at least according to my understanding. your comparison of your journey and his shouldn’t be side by side (Texas bills). Get off your Clydesdale and have a little compassion. If you were a resident of a different state it’ll probably be a different story for you.
 

CGtoDentistry

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The tone of the article was more of “it would be great IF student loan debt were forgiven”. The author wasn’t advocating for it, at least according to my understanding. your comparison of your journey and his shouldn’t be side by side (Texas bills). Get off your Clydesdale and have a little compassion. If you were a resident of a different state it’ll probably be a different story for you.
Still, the husband in this situation SHOULD have been looking at things like the HPSP, NHSC, etc. to fund his dental school experience. Hell, he would've gotten paid during dental school and graduate debt free if he opted for HPSP/HSCP.
 
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WOGTSTMK

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Still, the husband in this situation SHOULD have been looking at things like the HPSP, NHSC, etc. to fund his dental school experience. Hell, he would've gotten paid during dental school and graduate debt free if he opted for HPSP/HSCP.
Every dental student SHOULD look at those options. But the reality is every dental student WON’T be awarded those scholarships. So returning to my previous point, his amount of debt isn’t an outlier. It’s sadly becoming the trend among a lot of new dental students and graduating dentists. Blame shouldn’t be placed on the individual’s amount of debt, but the system that allows these numbers to continually rise.
 

WOGTSTMK

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He was not competitive enough for those programs. This article is a cautionary tale for all those pursuing dentistry who are on their second or third app cycle. You may realize your dream, but the price may be high.
What’s the cap for applying?
This is an incredibly ignorant statement, and your statement and reason don’t correlate. Which is it? He can’t afford to apply? or he’s not competitive enough?
 

Cold Front

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The system can’t be solely at fault.
The system is the gateway for people to economically participate the workforce they want to join. This is a broad based issue - and the primary reason is the government have let people/students down by creating a system built on debt. They juiced the system with easy money and the schools have put their responsibilities aside and exploited that easy money for their gains. The students are the victims of a problem started by the government. If students avoided high debt schools, they would be limited to going cheaper schools who are also raising their debt every year too. Cheap schools don’t technically exist anymore, because they are only cheap relative to expensive schools, but they are expensive relative to what the tuition and cost were 5-10 years ago.
 
Jan 28, 2018
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The system can’t be solely at fault
The system should take most of the fault. It takes advantage of financially illiterate 20 year olds who are told by everyone that going into insane debt for a piece of paper is a good idea.
 
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Cold Front

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The students are at fault. But it was incredibly hard to foresee the changing dynamics of the profession in real time. Most students shadowed rich dentists from the 80s and 90s and naturally thought it could be replicated in today’s environment.
Students are not at fault. Students can’t make these financial decisions without the government. The government controls the switch - they can say Yes or No to student loans. The government saying Yes almost
100% of the time to students who need a blank check to schools who exploits them created the high debts. The closest analogy I can think of is - a parent with kids walking into a grocery store and the parent saying Yes to everything the kids want in the store. Will you blame the kids?
 
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Jan 27, 2019
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Students are not at fault. Students can’t make these financial decisions without the government. The government controls the switch - they can say Yes or No to student loans. The government saying Yes almost
100% of the time to students who need a blank check to schools who exploits them created the high debts. The closest analogy I can think of is - a parent with kids walking into a grocery store and the parent saying Yes to everything the kids want in the store. Will you blame the kids?
I'd love to hear your reaction the day the government give student loans to only financially capable demographic...... Do you see the problem with your logic? The government granting loans to everyone is a great thing but planning and common sense is left for the student to figure out, sounds like a good deal to me.
 
Jan 28, 2018
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I'd love to hear your reaction the day the government give student loans to only financially capable demographic...... Do you see the problem with your logic? The government granting loans to everyone is a great thing but planning and common sense is left for the student to figure out, sounds like a good deal to me.
When the government was out of it, people could work during the summers and finance their educations for the entire year. It's only because the government guarantees loans no matter what that the costs have skyrocketed. No businessman in their right mind would give a 6 figure loan to a naive 20 year old who has zero income or assets and no real life experience. Only someone as incompetent as the government would do that. It's completely predatory and immoral. The government should stay out of it.
 

Cold Front

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I'd love to hear your reaction the day the government give student loans to only financially capable demographic...... Do you see the problem with your logic? The government granting loans to everyone is a great thing but planning and common sense is left for the student to figure out, sounds like a good deal to me.
I think you missed the point. The Government should “help” students by engaging more with the process. It doesn’t have to be a demographic bias approach, the villains are the schools that manipulate the system to their gains. Schools know the government has a mandate to have more professionals enter the workforce, and schools just leech off that policy with costly programs that are burden on the students. It’s called “Kakistocracy” - when a government system is run very poorly. Just look who is at the helm of the Education system in this country - Betsy “No Clue” Devos!
 

Cold Front

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Here's what a "good deal" looks like: $1,600,000,000 in student loan debt and rising. This is larger than the entire GDP of Russia. https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-clock/
Last time I checked, a year or so ago, the student debt was equivalent to the 9th largest economy of the world. Remember... it’s still going up at the rate of about $100B a year. Roughly around $3,000 per second.
 
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So the banks went from predatory mortgage lending to predatory student loan writing. And the government is in on it. Fantastic! But getting back to the original story, our OP was not a "no life experience" 20 year old. Unfortunately, once you start dental school, the years of training are worthless without finishing.
 
Apr 21, 2019
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Aren't education costs going up inevitable anyways? Of course education will get more expensive, inflation. It affects everyone including schools. Supplies cost more, equipment cost more, rent cost more, salaries cost more, therefore the school cost more.

Isn't the bigger problem the fact that the dental income isn't keeping up with inflation? If income kept up with inflation the inevitable rising school costs wouldn't be a problem.
 

Blueshirts

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Aren't education costs going up inevitable anyways? Of course education will get more expensive, inflation. It affects everyone including schools. Supplies cost more, equipment cost more, rent cost more, salaries cost more, therefore the school cost more.

Isn't the bigger problem the fact that the dental income isn't keeping up with inflation? If income kept up with inflation the inevitable rising school costs wouldn't be a problem.
The costs have been rising above the rate of inflation for over a decade though, just a side note.
 
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Apr 21, 2019
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The costs have been rising above the rate of inflation for over a decade though, just a side note.
Good point. But my point still stands regardless, the cost will rise due to inflation. It shouldn't be rising as much as it is right now but we can't expect schools to get cheaper. They will get more expensive. That means there is only one variable in this equation, and that's dental income. If dental income doesn't keep up that's where the issue arises.
 

Cold Front

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Dental fees and reimbursements need to rise if dental income is to rise. I don't see this happening in the competitive, saturated markets.
Not going to happen. 60% of dental insurance premiums go to dental services/treatments. The insurances pocket the rest (40%).

I hate to say it, but the corporate greed will invite more government insurances/socialized medicine and dentistry.
 

Cold Front

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The costs have been rising above the rate of inflation for over a decade though, just a side note.
The past 2 decades, dental school tuition and fees went up on average 4-6% every year - ABOVE inflation every year.

The starting salary of a new associate went up on average 1% every year - BELOW inflation.

So the schools made sure they turned higher profits every year and INCREASED student loans, while new dentists income DECREASED relative to inflation.

From another perspective, below is how the value of a $100 changed from 2000 ($100) to 2019 ($149). Average new dentist income in 2000 was about $100k, and today it’s about $140k - which hasn’t kept up with inflation. So more DEBT and LESS income has been the trend - in inflationary terms. I think that will not change anytime soon.

Year Dollar Value Inflation Rate
2000 $100.00 3.36%
2001 $102.85 2.85%
2002 $104.47 1.58%
2003 $106.85 2.28%
2004 $109.70 2.66%
2005 $113.41 3.39%
2006 $117.07 3.23%
2007 $120.41 2.85%
2008 $125.03 3.84%
2009 $124.59 -0.36% (Recession)
2010 $126.63 1.64%
2011 $130.63. 3.16%
2012 $133.33 2.07%
2013 $135.28 1.46%
2014 $137.48 1.62%
2015 $137.64 0.12%
2016 $139.38 1.26%
2017 $142.35 2.13%
2018 $145.82 2.44%
2019 $149.00 2.18%*
 
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Apr 21, 2019
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If the government didn't guarantee 500k+ in loans, schools would have to lower their prices.
Yes but you do realize that due to inflation these schools will have to close right? Dental schools cost so much because it is expensive to put a student through education. You have to pay for dental operatories, you have to pay staff/professor salaries etc. The cost of all of those will go up due to inflation. It is simply not an option for a school to lower their prices.

If a school starting charging 200k instead of 400k, they would go bankrupt because they won't be able to pay for everything. A dental op is not as cheap as it was back in 1980. Supplies are not as cheap as they were in 1980. The building the dental school is located in is not as cheap as it was in 1980. The salary for staff is much higher than it was in 1980. It is not even realistic for schools to all of a sudden become cheap, unless they received funding from other places than student tuition.
 
Apr 21, 2019
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The past 2 decades, dental school tuition and fees went up on average 4-6% every year - ABOVE inflation every year.

The starting salary of a new associate went up on average 1% every year - BELOW inflation.

So the schools made sure they turned higher profits every year and INCREASED student loans, while new dentists income DECREASED relative to inflation.

From another perspective, below is how the value of a $100 changed from 2000 ($100) to 2019 ($149). Average new dentist income in 2000 was about $100k, and today it’s about $140k - which hasn’t kept up with inflation. So more DEBT and LESS income has been the trend - in inflationary terms. I think that will not change anytime soon.

Year Dollar Value Inflation Rate
2000 $100.00 3.36%
2001 $102.85 2.85%
2002 $104.47 1.58%
2003 $106.85 2.28%
2004 $109.70 2.66%
2005 $113.41 3.39%
2006 $117.07 3.23%
2007 $120.41 2.85%
2008 $125.03 3.84%
2009 $124.59 -0.36% (Recession)
2010 $126.63 1.64%
2011 $130.63. 3.16%
2012 $133.33 2.07%
2013 $135.28 1.46%
2014 $137.48 1.62%
2015 $137.64 0.12%
2016 $139.38 1.26%
2017 $142.35 2.13%
2018 $145.82 2.44%
2019 $149.00 2.18%*
Thanks for the numbers Cold Front. I think the only balance in dentistry will be found when schools increase their prices as per inflation ~3% a year, and dental income also rises as per inflation around ~3% a year.

I agree that schools are raising their prices too fast, maybe to make a quick buck. But the prices will rise no matter what, at a minimum of 3% a year to keep up with inflation.
 
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Jan 28, 2018
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Yes but you do realize that due to inflation these schools will have to close right?
That would probably be a good thing. If NYU can't charge people a reasonable amount of money, they shouldn't be in business. Ever heard of Northwestern Dental school? Probably not. They, along with six other dental schools, had to close down due to financial stresses. This is how it should work.
The cost of all of those will go up due to inflation. It is simply not an option for a school to lower their prices.
What are you talking about? The costs have VASTLY exceeded inflation. This isn't just a dental school problem, this is a nation wide epidemic in all fields. For instance, a masters in public health at BU costs around 55k a year in tuition. They can charge whatever they want since the government will guarantee a loan to someone, no questions asked.
If a school starting charging 200k instead of 400k, they would go bankrupt because they won't be able to pay for everything. A dental op is not as cheap as it was back in 1980. Supplies are not as cheap as they were in 1980. The building the dental school is located in is not as cheap as it was in 1980. The salary for staff is much higher than it was in 1980. It is not even realistic for schools to all of a sudden become cheap, unless they received funding from other places than student tuition.
I've already said, certain schools should go bankrupt. I also agree tuition should rise with inflation to cover those costs you mentioned, but not raise costs by 7-10% when they should be increased by 2%. They've raised tuition vastly above inflation because students will continue to apply and go to these schools no matter what. Why not jack up the prices if you're them?
 

Cold Front

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I've already said, certain schools should go bankrupt.
I agree. We are waiting for the other shoe to drop. Law schools, MBA schools, and other graduate programs enrollment have declined because the education to career benefits are starting to not make sense for those fields. Dental schools haven’t tested the ceiling of $ cost that would constitute a lower enrollment or even bankruptcy.

We had income-to-student debt ratio of 2:1 for the average dentist in the 1990s, and that ratio inverted to 1:3/1:4 for today’s average new grad. I think the red line for dental school enrollment to pull back will be closer to 1:6 ratio. So in other words - if the average new grad is making $150k a year, then they would carry $900k in student loans (and interest) - which would definitely bring the enrollment down to a screeching halt IMO. So at this rate, we are looking at another 10-15 years for schools to either start freezing their tuition and fees to prevent a dip in enrollment. It could certainly happen much sooner for some schools who are already charging $600-700k - those are already in the 1:5 ratio today, and they are probably 5-10 years away from enrollment issues.
 
Apr 21, 2019
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I agree with what you are saying @fermi555 , some schools should close down.
But in your previous post you said
If the government didn't guarantee 500k+ in loans, schools would have to lower their prices.
You have to realize that eventually even the cheapest schools will cost 500k+ just to simply operate without any profit at all. The only "solution" is for dental incomes to rise as well.

As Cold Front said, eventually the debt to income ratio will be too big, and students stop applying to dental schools. Those schools will close down. But unless dental income rises, every single school in the nation will get more expensive and every school will result in a debt to income ratio which is too big for students to handle. The only solution I see is for dentists to earn more really. Salaries in medicine are keeping up with inflation. Dentistry is one of the professions which is falling behind. In fact I read that income for dentists peaked in 2008 and has been on a steady decline ever since. At that rate, even the Texas schools will be too expensive eventually.
 

allantois

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I've said it before: outsource dental education to foreign countries. US Dental colleges proved to be incompetent in providing adequately priced education to US students
 
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Cold Front

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But unless dental income rises...
I have looked at few scenarios that this could happen, and they showed no increase in income relative to inflation.

There are few factors than can increase income:

1. Working in less saturated areas: Unfortunately, for young dentists (in their 20’s to 40’s), this will be highly unlikely for the majority. Society is moving to more urban areas, which means, their families, relatives and friends all want to move there too - and dentists will be pressured to work in urban areas as a result. Also, fewer and fewer people will live in rural areas, so the dentist to population ratio will decline over time over there. Plus corporations are already expanding to rural areas at a faster rate than young dentists. So in this scenario, the average dentist income will not go up.

2. Insurance/reimbursements: There is a continuous downward pressure to reduce fees and eliminate coverage from most private insurance plans. In fact, some insurance plans are opening their own private practices. A significant number of patients with private insurances can’t afford co-payments for major procedures (root canals, crowns, ortho, etc). This benefits the insurance companies, less money going out, as they don’t have to cut checks to providers. Even when they do, there is a complex tug of war for insurances to pay (unnecessary reviews and delays of claims being paid). So under this scenario, the average dentist can only make more $$$ if he or she has a very good system to navigate through insurance plans. So in this scenario, there is a big MAYBE that a dentist income could go up, but difficult to say if it’s sustainable in the long run. Also, government insurances will expand in the future, as the lower socioeconomic demographics grow at a faster pace than the middle class (less fertility) - so this will not be good for a dentist income when you have an overall fewer people who can afford premium dental services.

3. Technology and Workforce changes: We are seeing technology disruptions and taking services from providers. Aligners for ortho are now offered ubiquitously over pharmacy counters. Technology will also push services to corporations, with more centralized marketing and call centers that can reach new patients better than the average dentists. It’s the Walgreens/CVS versus small pharmacy store effect. In fact, private equities are buying private practices with strong numbers before the average dentist can. Mid-level providers will also be in every state in a decade or so (currently 15 states) - adding to the existing saturation. These changes happened already, but they will get bigger and limit the average dentist income.

4. Less dental schools and debt: Well, this is now a widely known fact and reality. Both went up and they both lead to more saturation and less income. Some schools are also expanding their international dentists programs - who end up working for corporations to obtain green cards/permanent residencies. Those dentists will accept lower income to motivate employers for their sponsorship and ultimately help corporations grow.

5. Inflation: The average Dentist income has been losing against inflation for a decade or 2 now. Dental office cost/overhead has been going up - from office leases, construction cost, payroll (minimum wage in some states like Massachusetts has gone up to $15+ an hour, even corporations like Target and fast food chains now pay equal or more than a dental assistant pay in many parts of the country), supply cost, even personal cost like housing, gas, and cost to raise a family has gone up (ask any dentist with kids on these forums). Inflation is by far the #1 threat to the “average dentist” income.
 
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Apr 21, 2019
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I have looked at few scenarios that this could happen, and they showed no increase in income relative to inflation.

There are few factors than can increase income:

1. Working in less saturated areas: Unfortunately, for young dentists (in their 20’s to 40’s), this will be highly unlikely for the majority. Society is moving to more urban areas, which means, their families, relatives and friends all want to move there too - and dentists will be pressured to work in urban areas as a result. Also, fewer and fewer people will live in rural areas, so the dentist to population ratio will decline over time over there. Plus corporations are already expanding to rural areas at a faster rate than young dentists. So in this scenario, the average dentist income will not go up.

2. Insurance/reimbursements: There is a continuous downward pressure to reduce fees and eliminate coverage from most private insurance plans. In fact, some insurance plans are opening their own private practices. A significant number of patients with private insurances can’t afford co-payments for major procedures (root canals, crowns, ortho, etc). This benefits the insurance companies, less money going out, as they don’t have to cut checks to providers. Even when they do, there is a complex tug of war for insurances to pay (unnecessary reviews and delays of claims being paid). So under this scenario, the average dentist can only make more $$$ if he or she has a very good system to navigate through insurance plans. So in this scenario, there is a big MAYBE that a dentist income could go up, but difficult to say if it’s sustainable in the long run. Also, government insurances will expand in the future, as the lower socioeconomic demographics grow at a faster pace than the middle class (less fertility) - so this will not be good for a dentist income when you have an overall fewer people who can afford premium dental services.

3. Technology and Workforce changes: We are seeing technology disruptions and taking services from providers. Aligners for ortho are now offered ubiquitously over pharmacy counters. Technology will also push services to corporations, with more centralized marketing and call centers that can reach new patients better than the average dentists. It’s the Walgreens/CVS versus small pharmacy store effect. In fact, private equities are buying private practices with strong numbers before the average dentist can. Mid-level providers will also be in every state in a decade or so (currently 15 states) - adding to the existing saturation. These changes happened already, but they will get bigger and limit the average dentist income.

4. Less dental schools and debt: Well, this is now a widely known fact and reality. Both went up and they both lead to more saturation and less income. Some schools are also expanding their international dentists programs - who end up working for corporations to obtain green cards/permanent residencies. Those dentists will accept lower income to motivate employers for their sponsorship and ultimately help corporations grow.

5. Inflation: The average Dentist income has been losing against inflation for a decade or 2 now. Dental office cost/overhead has been going up - from office leases, construction cost, payroll (minimum wage in some states like Massachusetts has gone up to $15+ an hour, even corporations like Target and fast food chains now pay equal or more than a dental assistant pay in many parts of the country), supply cost, even personal cost like housing, gas, and cost to raise a family has gone up (ask any dentist with kids on these forums). Inflation is by far the #1 threat to the “average dentist” income.
Great post.

One thing I've noticed is that for international dentists (international students in general) income is a lot lower in their respective countries, and quality of life in America is usually much higher. So for them even working as an associate in America for 120k a year would be a dream job, even if after debt payments they are barely making above average American wage, because it's still rich compared to where they came from, and quality of life is way better. This is from anecdotal personal experience and I don't mean to generalize all internationals.

So in the end if American students stop attending dental schools due to debt/income ratio, you better believe international students will fill those spots up really fast.
 

CGtoDentistry

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Great post.

One thing I've noticed is that for international dentists (international students in general) income is a lot lower in their respective countries, and quality of life in America is usually much higher. So for them even working as an associate in America for 120k a year would be a dream job, even if after debt payments they are barely making above average American wage, because it's still rich compared to where they came from, and quality of life is way better. This is from anecdotal personal experience and I don't mean to generalize all internationals.

So in the end if American students stop attending dental schools due to debt/income ratio, you better believe international students will fill those spots up really fast.
If that becomes the norm with international dentists becoming the norm (Congress nixes the ADA's power to not recognize foreign dental licenses) I see a few of the following happening.:
  • Internationally trained dentists allowed to go through training to become dental therapists and not full fledged dentists. Think bread and butter procedures, nothing overly complex. Canaries, simple extractions, tooth sealants, etc. This possibly benefits rural areas that need this sort of coverage. This also greatly benefits corporations if they begin employing a multitude of these dental therapists. @2TH MVR would have further insight from working at a corp
  • Associate Dentists/Dental Therapists salaries may drop from 120K a year down to 80-100K depending on influx.
  • Dentist/Dental Therapist model similar to Physician/PA model with urgent cares. Dentist w/DMD/DDS could own a practice miles away and only employ dental therapists or RDHs
 
Apr 21, 2019
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If that becomes the norm with international dentists becoming the norm (Congress nixes the ADA's power to not recognize foreign dental licenses) I see a few of the following happening.:
  • Internationally trained dentists allowed to go through training to become dental therapists and not full fledged dentists. Think bread and butter procedures, nothing overly complex. Canaries, simple extractions, tooth sealants, etc. This possibly benefits rural areas that need this sort of coverage. This also greatly benefits corporations if they begin employing a multitude of these dental therapists. @2TH MVR would have further insight from working at a corp
  • Associate Dentists/Dental Therapists salaries may drop from 120K a year down to 80-100K depending on influx.
  • Dentist/Dental Therapist model similar to Physician/PA model with urgent cares. Dentist w/DMD/DDS could own a practice miles away and only employ dental therapists or RDHs
Actually I meant more as in the dental schools currently will accept way more international dentists if not enough American students are applying, not that international dental licenses will be allowed to practice or anything. Right now international spots in dental schools are limited but if American student enrollment drops maybe they open up more spots for internationals who are more than willing to pay an arm and a leg just to come to America, let alone make 6 figures in America regardless of the debt.
 

Cold Front

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If American student enrollment drops maybe they open up more spots for internationals who are more than willing to pay an arm and a leg just to come to America, let alone make 6 figures in America regardless of the debt.
I did a LOR for a foreign dentist I know through a friend few days ago. He graduated from a dental program in Cuba. The ADA has a completely different AADSAS process than regular pre-dents - it’s called CAAPID.

But to add to your point, currently there is a strong sentiment in the government (and in many parts of the world) to promote migrants with qualifications and restrict those who come to this county for economic aides/benefit programs. If this trajectory continues, I can see dental schools (once again) exploiting situations to their bottom line and lobby for more international students through H1B programs - which will hurt the existing dentist workforce in a race to the bottom direction. I’m only saying this from an observation perspective.
 

IHO

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Imagine an entire generation of trusted adults telling 17 year old kids whose brains won't fully develop until they're 25 they have to go to college to get a job and then the government gives these naive kids loans regardless of the cost so the prices get completely jacked up. Now a generation of young people are too in debt to have kids or own anything because of the scam and colleges have become so saturated that many of the degrees have become worthless. Have some empathy.
I guess this is why so many in this demographic support bernie.
 
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