New Associate vs Hygienist salaries... the gap is shrinking!

[Cold Front]

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There are a lot of hygienist openings in my town, and these positions average about $65k a year, this is also a national average (which means many are making more than the average). Meanwhile, new associates are getting hired about $90k a year.

I know some of you will make the argument that the income potential for an associate will go up exponentially with experience, but what about:

- 4 yrs of school vs 2 yrs for hygienists (big difference in stress levels)
- $200-300k school loans (which can take up to 30 years to pay back) vs $10-15k from hygienists
- the risk levels (associates tx plan and diagnose, hygienists don't)
- many associates start with % of what they produce (some days production are low due to no shows, etc - hygienists get paid no matter what)
- etc.

So my point is, even though an associate can look for a higher paying position elsewhere, it's totally ridiculous for a dentist to hire another dentist for less than $100k in this day and age. The minimum should be $120k, considering the average well seasoned dentist is making around $200k.

As far as hygienists, they are already making over $100k in Canada... it won't be too long until they do too here in the states.

 

[OceanDMD]

There are a lot of hygienist openings in my town, and these positions average about $65k a year, this is also a national average (which means many are making more than the average). Meanwhile, new associates are getting hired about $90k a year.

I know some of you will make the argument that the income potential for an associate will go up exponentially with experience, but what about:

- 4 yrs of school vs 2 yrs for hygienists (big difference in stress levels)
- $200-300k school loans (which can take up to 30 years to pay back) vs $10-15k from hygienists
- the risk levels (associates tx plan and diagnose, hygienists don't)
- many associates start with % of what they produce (some days production are low due to no shows, etc - hygienists get paid no matter what)
- etc.

So my point is, even though an associate can look for a higher paying position elsewhere, it's totally ridiculous for a dentist to hire another dentist for less than $100k in this day and age. The minimum should be $120k, considering the average well seasoned dentist is making around $200k.

As far as hygienists, they are already making over $100k in Canada... it won't be too long until they do too here in the states.

Dont kid yourself. Your starting associate salary isn't going to budge, in fact likely go down. With this economy, Dentist are not retiring, cosmetics is in less demand, and there is an overall fear about the next 4 years. If you think you are going to be payed $120,000/ year, you better be collecting $350,000 for your hiring dentist. We will see a push towards healthcare reform that will also likely impact our profession. It will start with children, and work from there. There is always Alaska and the military.

 

[ptrianon]

From what I have heard, hygienists are usually compensated 1/3rd of what they produce. I don't think 65k should be too hard for a hygienist to take home if they work full time. As for the sub 100k associate average, I'm guessing but I feel like that has more to do with associates not being able to keep busy. My friends that have graduated and are working seem to be having trouble keeping their schedules full. I totally agree though that anyone with 200k+ debt should make sure they take home 100k+. Given the opportunity cost of 4 yrs of school, and the absurd indebtedness we are expected to take on I feel that dentistry and medicine are generally not exceptionally financially rewarding despite the public perception to the contrary. We do have good job security though which is pretty clutch during an economic recession.

 

[armorshell]

My observation with people that have had trouble finding work is that they're tied to a location. They graduate, move back to their home town (Say for instance, Sacramento) and then try and find a job, usually without much luck.

IMO, the key is to not be tied to a specific locale.

 

[NileBDS]

My observation with people that have had trouble finding work is that they're tied to a location. They graduate, move back to their home town (Say for instance, Sacramento) and then try and find a job, usually without much luck.

IMO, the key is to not be tied to a specific locale.

Bingo. In addition, I find it a little hard to believe that $65k is a "national average" for hygienists. I actually heard of hygienists that make $100k, but just as dentists that claim to make $1mil+, are probably far and in between. I'd say $50-$55k is more of a realistic average (average low $40k, average high $70k). And guess who the first person to be booted from the island is, when the practice isn't doing so well ... you got it.

Simply put, if you accept an associate position for less than $120k nowadays, you are putting out ! No excuses (except if you are not willing to relocate, for which you have no one to blame but yourself). Realize your potential.

I interviewed for a couple of positions (but was not crazy about the office staff/team) which offered $700/day BASE + benefits and % of production goal surplus (must see occasional pedo patients). Another was $140k (not guaranteed - maybe more maybe less) PLUS benefits and relocation expenses. No mills. No capitation. One was actually fee for service ...
If you're sitting somewhere in New Jersey or L.A. wondering why you have not been getting these kinds of offers, that's a good indication that you need to look within a bigger radius.

I know somewhere in Texas (fact) offices are offering $180k BASE + benefits out of school. No bull ...

 

[Cold Front]

I find it a little hard to believe that $65k is a "national average" for hygienists.

According to a very recent TIME magazine article they do. I bet the top 25% are making at least $80k. Plus they are one of the highest growing fields in the country... they will say "hello" to $100k average salary sooner than most of us think.

 

[KOM]

I bet there's going to be a "health-care bubble" pop in the next ten years or so. I suspect it will be even sooner than that. I think OceanDMD is right that healthcare reform is on the way in the face of the rising costs. Especially with Obama behind the wheel and Hilary lurking in the shadows.

There's NO WAY these high health-care costs are going to be able to sustain themselves. Hygienists keep wanting more, dental lab techs keep wanting more, and dentists will need more. Until POP! Nobody but the rich can afford dental care and govt intervenes.

 

[OceanDMD]

I bet there's going to be a "health-care bubble" pop in the next ten years or so. I suspect it will be even sooner than that. I think OceanDMD is right that healthcare reform is on the way in the face of the rising costs. Especially with Obama behind the wheel and Hilary lurking in the shadows.

There's NO WAY these high health-care costs are going to be able to sustain themselves. Hygienists keep wanting more, dental lab techs keep wanting more, and dentists will need more. Until POP! Nobody but the rich can afford dental care and govt intervenes.

As a dental student, graduating with 100-300k loans, fear it. Down economy, soon to be higher taxes to the business that may hire associates, down market with looming increases in capital gains taxes, NOT GOOD. At least health care will be a right, and payed for regardless of the situation.

 

[shamrock2006]

A hygienist is not going to make more than a dentist...won't happen. Until they start letting hygienests deliver crowns and do endo instead of doing cleanings all day...i think dentists are safe. I'd be more worried about those new "Mid-level dental professional" programs that are popping up at places like UMinn...check it out for yourselves.

http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/adanews/adanewsarticle.asp?articleid=3004

 

[Contach]

A hygienist is not going to make more than a dentist...won't happen. Until they start letting hygienests deliver crowns and do endo instead of doing cleanings all day...i think dentists are safe. I'd be more worried about those new "Mid-level dental professional" programs that are popping up at places like UMinn...check it out for yourselves.

http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/adanews/adanewsarticle.asp?articleid=3004

I don't think anyone can be worried about hygienists making more than dentists. If that is the case, then dentists will start doing cleanings themselves....

 

[SiemReap]

A hygienist is not going to make more than a dentist...won't happen. Until they start letting hygienests deliver crowns and do endo instead of doing cleanings all day...i think dentists are safe. I'd be more worried about those new "Mid-level dental professional" programs that are popping up at places like UMinn...check it out for yourselves.

http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/adanews/adanewsarticle.asp?articleid=3004

yeah, i agree-considering dentists are the ones who pay hygienists

 

[TRN1983]

From what I have heard, hygienists are usually compensated 1/3rd of what they produce.

It's closer to about 25-28% of production or, in CA, its a flat rate of about $330-360/day, which is about 25% of average production. I wish it was 1/3... (wife does hygiene). But, considering they're doing cleanings, prepping dental work (nitrous, local anesthetic, etc), finding more dental work, building patient trust and compliance (patients trust hygienists much more than dentists), and selling products, hygienists are a great investment for a dental office with tons of patients.

I don't think anyone can be worried about hygienists making more than dentists. If that is the case, then dentists will start doing cleanings themselves....

Not gonna happen. If they have a large enough patient base they loose money doing cleanings.

Bingo. In addition, I find it a little hard to believe that $65k is a "national average" for hygienists. I actually heard of hygienists that make $100k, but just as dentists that claim to make $1mil+, are probably far and in between. I'd say $50-$55k is more of a realistic average (average low $40k, average high $70k). And guess who the first person to be booted from the island is, when the practice isn't doing so well ... you got it.

CA daily average rate is about $350/day for hygienists. So, the averages are all over the place b/c the hygienists work odd schedules. Some prefer 1 day/wk, some prefer 5 (hard to do).

And, you're totally right about hygienists getting the boot. When the dental offices slow (due to, from what I've seen being cosmetic work going down the tubes) the dentists start taking over more of their hygiene component and that means hygienists have a hard time finding jobs. It's relatively difficult for a hygienist to find work right now in CA.

 

[TRN1983]

double post.

 

[Cold Front]

the averages are all over the place b/c the hygienists work odd schedules. Some prefer 1 day/wk, some prefer 5 (hard to do).

Well, the average hygienist sees more patients than a new associate for sure, it's the volume of patients they make up for. Hygienists also produce 1/3 of what an experienced dentist can on average (see table).

There is a huge demand for new dentists, but I think the demand is even greater for hygienists due to their prevention role in dentistry. I have no problem with them making a good living for themselves, but hiring new associates on a hygienist pay-grade bothers me.

 

[TRN1983]

I have no problem with them making a good living for themselves, but hiring new associates on a hygienist pay-grade bothers me.

I won't argue that. Double the time in school = double the salary IMHO 🙂

Now, I just want to point out that your graph indicates the necessity of hygienists. They see more patients and produce less, in dollars. A dentist who doesn't have a hygienist, but has a large patient base, is losing money by doing cleanings.

 

[KOM]

I'd be more worried about those new "Mid-level dental professional" programs that are popping up at places like UMinn...check it out for yourselves.

http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/adanews/adanewsarticle.asp?articleid=3004

Yep, the ADHP's are going to start being turned out from the U of MN probably in 2013-14 right about the time I finish my military service. I probably won't set up shop there anymore.

Maybe I'll try to convince my wife to go back to Alaska. They usually lag behind the rest of the country in these asenine proposals by a good 10 years or so.

 

[armorshell]

Yep, the ADHP's are going to start being turned out from the U of MN probably in 2013-14 right about the time I finish my military service. I probably won't set up shop there anymore.

Maybe I'll try to convince my wife to go back to Alaska. They usually lag behind the rest of the country in these asenine proposals by a good 10 years or so.

Isn't Alaska where the whole "Dental therapist" thing started?!

 

[KOM]

Isn't Alaska where the whole "Dental therapist" thing started?!

Oh yeah.

Where would you recommend starting up Armor?

 

[predentn]

I won't argue that. Double the time in school = double the salary IMHO 🙂

Now, I just want to point out that your graph indicates the necessity of hygienists. They see more patients and produce less, in dollars. A dentist who doesn't have a hygienist, but has a large patient base, is losing money by doing cleanings.

There is a difference between losing money and not making as much as possible.

 

[TRN1983]

There is a difference between losing money and not making as much as possible.

Well, you're just playing with semantics here. Sure, if you can make $5 one way and make $3 another, you didn't lose money by choosing the $3 route you just chose not to make as much, right? However, its very reasonable to argue that, if you knew that the two routes would give you their respective outcomes and you chose to take the one that resulted in lower pay, you lost money. I'd argue that in business if you aren't optimized, you're losing money.

 

[predentn]

Well, you're just playing with semantics here. Sure, if you can make $5 one way and make $3 another, you didn't lose money by choosing the $3 route you just chose not to make as much, right? However, its very reasonable to argue that, if you knew that the two routes would give you their respective outcomes and you chose to take the one that resulted in lower pay, you lost money. I'd argue that in business if you aren't optimized, you're losing money.

Practicing dentistry isn't just about padding your pockets...imagine that.

 

[rdhdds1]

Isn't Alaska where the whole "Dental therapist" thing started?!

Actually started in Great Britain and New Zealand. It was introduced into Alaska as a pilot program some years ago in order to provide care for the majority of the underserved populations.

 

[rdhdds1]

I won't argue that. Double the time in school = double the salary IMHO 🙂

Now, I just want to point out that your graph indicates the necessity of hygienists. They see more patients and produce less, in dollars. A dentist who doesn't have a hygienist, but has a large patient base, is losing money by doing cleanings.

Certainly bothers me as well. I mean come on, really?

 

[rdhdds1]

It's closer to about 25-28% of production or, in CA, its a flat rate of about $330-360/day, which is about 25% of average production. I wish it was 1/3... (wife does hygiene). But, considering they're doing cleanings, prepping dental work (nitrous, local anesthetic, etc), finding more dental work, building patient trust and compliance (patients trust hygienists much more than dentists), and selling products, hygienists are a great investment for a dental office with tons of patients.


Not gonna happen. If they have a large enough patient base they loose money doing cleanings.

CA daily average rate is about $350/day for hygienists. So, the averages are all over the place b/c the hygienists work odd schedules. Some prefer 1 day/wk, some prefer 5 (hard to do).

And, you're totally right about hygienists getting the boot. When the dental offices slow (due to, from what I've seen being cosmetic work going down the tubes) the dentists start taking over more of their hygiene component and that means hygienists have a hard time finding jobs. It's relatively difficult for a hygienist to find work right now in CA.

The average is truly dependent on where someone lives and practices. In AZ hygienists make a little less than CA and I know that in TX they make less than in AZ.

When a hygienist works on production (a percentage of what is generated out of their ops) I find that some, not all, but some are walking the line of moral/ethical malpractice. If I can get patient "X" to buy product "A" then that is an addititional $20.00 in my pay check or whatever the case.

I do think that a small base plus production percentage is a better route to take.

As for work. I second the motion that when the office slows down the hygienist is the first to go. I lost my job at a practice I had been at for years due to the economy. I have now been unemployed for 4 months and as a hygienist the pickings are slim. Temp agencies are slow (dont have work) nobody seems to be hiring and no other job (outside of dentistry) will hire a hygienist who, for the last 6 years, has been doing hygiene work.

 

[TRN1983]

Practicing dentistry isn't just about padding your pockets...imagine that.

Well, I know a LOT of dentists and their primary concern is generally making a good salary. However, most of them want to do it in a very ethically sound way and they generally do care about providing good patient care.

Now, by your statement I get the impression you think that by a dentist hiring a hygienist they are doing their patient a disservice. Well, that couldn't be more wrong. A hygienist can't do 99% of the things a dentist can--they're not trained to do any of it and they'd never think of it! However, they are trained to do one thing VERY well, and that's keeping those teeth gums healthy with their cleanings. Dentists cover so many things in their training that they spend a relatively short time on cleanings (months?). Hygienists are instructed on scaling, and scaling techniques, for two straight years. They're generally excellent at what they do. They're definitely not any sort of dentist replacement or equivalent--again, they have an inferior physiological education and they don't learn even a small fraction of the procedures dentists do. But, they're generally very well trained scalers. If you go on to have a successful practice, I'm sure you'll realize that.

 

[capisce?]

 

[Cold Front]

The devil is in the details.

Let's not forget, out of the 15,000 hygienists graduating every year, majority of them have only high school education, versus ALL new dentists with a 4 yrs undergrad, and 4 yrs of doctorate degree under their belt.

I understand when an orthodontist or oral surgeon does further training to make more $$$ than general dentist, but when I see hygienists being hopeful about setting up their own shop someday, and try to undermine how the system is run, while being compensated very well, it's just wrong.

 

[TRN1983]

The devil is in the details.

Let's not forget, out of the 15,000 hygienists graduating every year, majority of them have only high school education, versus ALL new dentists with a 4 yrs undergrad, and 4 yrs of doctorate degree under their belt.

Yeah, I sometimes forget that not all states require hygienists to do 2 yrs of pre-reqs along with their 2 yrs of hygiene training. I'd really like to see hygienists get at least a couple years of college education behind them before they're allowed to get their RDH.

I understand when an orthodontist or oral surgeon does further training to make more $$$ than general dentist, but when I see hygienists being hopeful about setting up their own shop someday, and try to undermine how the system is run, while being compensated very well, it's just wrong.

Yeah... I agree. Unfortunately, that's the nature of things. Just look at what nurses have done with their DNP (Doctor of Nurse Practitioning), which is an online program 🙄

 

[predentn]

Well, I know a LOT of dentists and their primary concern is generally making a good salary. However, most of them want to do it in a very ethically sound way and they generally do care about providing good patient care.

Now, by your statement I get the impression you think that by a dentist hiring a hygienist they are doing their patient a disservice. Well, that couldn't be more wrong. A hygienist can't do 99% of the things a dentist can--they're not trained to do any of it and they'd never think of it! However, they are trained to do one thing VERY well, and that's keeping those teeth gums healthy with their cleanings. Dentists cover so many things in their training that they spend a relatively short time on cleanings (months?). Hygienists are instructed on scaling, and scaling techniques, for two straight years. They're generally excellent at what they do. They're definitely not any sort of dentist replacement or equivalent--again, they have an inferior physiological education and they don't learn even a small fraction of the procedures dentists do. But, they're generally very well trained scalers. If you go on to have a successful practice, I'm sure you'll realize that.

When your argument for hiring a hygienist is making $5 vs $3, what did you expect?

A hygienist is not required for a successful practice, of course that might not be true depending on your interpretation of success.

 

[TRN1983]

When your argument for hiring a hygienist is making $5 vs $3, what did you expect?

A hygienist is not required for a successful practice, of course that might not be true depending on your interpretation of success.

I'm not sure what your problem is with hygienists, but I hope it doesn't follow you into practice--especially if you practice in a state like WA or CA where they can be exceedingly helpful to you as a future dentist (taking routine cleanings off of the dentists schedule so they can focus on dental work, identifying necessary dental work during routine cleanings, prepping patients by administering anesthesia, etc).

But, you are correct. A hygienist isn't required for a successful practice, depending on your definition of success. However, if you define success by developing a large base of content/happy patients then you'll probably want to have one or two of them around so that you can focus on the things that dentists do (crown's, root canals, extractions, etc) and let the hygienist do what they do (scale calculus and promote healthy teeth/gums).

A patient absolutely doesn't need to have a cleaning performed by a dentist in order to have a good cleaning. On the contrary, they may actually benefit from someone cleaning their teeth who does nothing but scale calculus 8hrs/day 3-5 days per week.

Dental offices have hygienists for the same reason hospitals have nurses. You don't need the highly educated (and expensive) doctors wasting their time on something that doesn't require extensive education to do and can be taken care of by someone who specializes in that small scope of treatment.

 

[Cold Front]

Yeah... I agree. Unfortunately, that's the nature of things. Just look at what nurses have done with their DNP (Doctor of Nurse Practitioning), which is an online program 🙄

According to this article, half of nation's physicians want to quit, and would seriously consider getting out of the medical business within the next three years if they had an alternative. Many said they are overwhelmed with red tape from insurance companies and government agencies. But you don't see the nurse practitioners feeling the same pressure, they are certainly role models for dental hygienists.

 

[rdhdds1]

Yeah, I sometimes forget that not all states require hygienists to do 2 yrs of pre-reqs along with their 2 yrs of hygiene training. I'd really like to see hygienists get at least a couple years of college education behind them before they're allowed to get their RDH.

Yeah... I agree. Unfortunately, that's the nature of things. Just look at what nurses have done with their DNP (Doctor of Nurse Practitioning), which is an online program 🙄

The online programs that you are speaking of are mainly based on theory and application of knowledge as well as expanding the current knowledge base. Online prgrams of study can and often are more labor intensive than sitting in a classroom. Most of the nformation has to be researched and identified by the student vs having the information thrown at you.

According to this article, half of nation's physicians want to quit, and would seriously consider getting out of the medical business within the next three years if they had an alternative. Many said they are overwhelmed with red tape from insurance companies and government agencies. But you don't see the nurse practitioners feeling the same pressure, they are certainly role models for dental hygienists.

NP's do not feel the same pressure the same way PA's do not feel the same pressure. Neither operate soley on their own. They are both "supervised" by an MD/DO and this greatly reduces the amount of stress that either would have due to the limits of liability and the like.

 

[capisce?]

According to this article, half of nation's physicians want to quit

Half of primary-care physicians, not all physicians. Huge difference.

 

[TRN1983]

The online programs that you are speaking of are mainly based on theory and application of knowledge as well as expanding the current knowledge base. Online prgrams of study can and often are more labor intensive than sitting in a classroom. Most of the nformation has to be researched and identified by the student vs having the information thrown at you.

That can be true at times, I don't disagree there. However, as far as the DNP's are concerned, they're meant to be autonomous and essentially replace primary care physicians. DNP's will have only hundreds of hours of clinical training versus a PCP's 12-15 thousand hours of clinical training along with a much less intensive and much less extensive education than a physician.

 

[capisce?]

The places where is may be an issue are big cities. Look people if you are dead set on living in Boston, NYC, LA, Chicago...well you are gonna get raped in dental school tuition and then you are going to get paid peanuts when you are out. And to some people that's a sacrifice worth making to live in an awesome city.

For the other 90% of you out there this topic is pretty much a non-issue.

 

[rdhdds1]

That can be true at times, I don't disagree there. However, as far as the DNP's are concerned, they're meant to be autonomous and essentially replace primary care physicians. DNP's will have only hundreds of hours of clinical training versus a PCP's 12-15 thousand hours of clinical training along with a much less intensive and much less extensive education than a physician.

I am afraid now. I feel that the only reason that the DHP was created is becasue the nursing profession made it happen. They are self regulated by the way.

Maybe the DNP programs have certian requirements that have to be met prior to acceptance. Like maybe "X" number of clinical hours and the liek. I do not know.

To train a nurse with a nursing background based on the nursing sciences to go through NP training (okay Iget that) but then turn around and say I can get my PhD and become a "doctor", come on!