New Chief resident asserting their authority? Punishing residents by increasing call?

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Leonardsean

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So, as is often the case when you give a little bit of authority to a person who has never held a job outside of residency, our new King (Chief) Resident has decided he will remake the residency program in his own image, and is making a slew of changes, the majority of which are not working.

Amongst these changes are instituting a numerical demerit system for residents that arrive to clinic late, do not do their fair share of administrative work and do not have their office notes completed in a timely fashion.

As the number of demerits increases this results in escalating punishment including adding an additional weekend of call.

Is this ACGME acceptable? One of our attendings believed it was not appropriate to increase workload as a punishment for failing to meet expectations was not permitted under ACGME regulations. I was wondering if any PD's out there new for sure.

Thanks,

--Sean

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The ACGME usually does not get into details like this. I doubt that this is any sort of violation, regardless of the field.

Much like Trump taking security clearances away from those who say things he does not like -- it's probably legal and valid, whether it will actually help is another issue.

Some would argue that this is a completely fair solution -- they have laid out the rules, you know exactly what you need to do to avoid extra weekend calls.
 
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Stories like this make me even more glad I’m done with training.

Keep your head down, and just finish training and leave that BS behind you. Speaking as someone who tried to rattle the cages a bit in residency, I definitely found myself having an inordinate number of Friday PM calls. Left me a little jaded - it’s hard to make true, positive changes as a trainee. Better to do as staff. Good luck.
 
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also I see no issue with the Chief and program taking issue with any of the examples you gave, and I'm seriously wondering what you think should be consequences for them, besides the fact you're already told doing any of them that they're unacceptable

not to mention it sounds like with the demerit system you wouldn't necessarily be "punished" immediately, which would have the effect of making you aware of the deficiencies and able to address them before being being censured in a more concrete fashion

people having the issues you state, are often overwhelmed in some fashion (besides being late), so I don't agree that more work will help someone who is drowning, it seems to me that this extra call doesn't necessarily interfere with one becoming more efficient and meeting their duties in a timely fashion and avoiding the extra call

but I could see avoiding extra call as a powerful motivator not to **** off getting notes done on time, etc

that "extra" call likely isn't "extra" in terms of creating more work to be done, it probably has to be covered anyway, sometimes you can't really distribute that entirely evenly, likely this system is actually a more fair way of seeing to who that "extra" goes
 
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in any case, it sounds like you have more problems with this resident on a personal level than that they're being unfair, I don't see why this system would be an ACGME violation unless the call doesn't have arguable educational value (scut) or is excessive or is distributed for discriminatory reasons

programs are allowed to discipline residents for not meeting standards, and discipline in the form of clinical duties is hardly inappropriate to your training

maybe this guy really is a douche, but in any case it sounds more like a personal problem
 
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As long as the hours aren’t over your work hour rule, there isn’t much you can do. Also those hours are averaged over 4 week period. And technically you only need to be one off every week (?), maybe even post call day off count, if you do 24.

Those are the “hard numbers” you can reference back to. Everything else, just have to assume the position, for the beating.

Keep your head down. It’s only a year, it should get better. TBH, this probably won’t be the last time someone try to use their power on you, you’ll just need to learn when/how to fight back. Just think it of as another “educational” experience.

Good luck!
 
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Stories like this make me even more glad I’m done with training.

Keep your head down, and just finish training and leave that BS behind you. Speaking as someone who tried to rattle the cages a bit in residency, I definitely found myself having an inordinate number of Friday PM calls. Left me a little jaded - it’s hard to make true, positive changes as a trainee. Better to do as staff. Good luck.


I'm actually an off-schedule 3rd year and will graduate in a few weeks, I'm just wondering for the sake of my colleagues just starting.

--Sean
 
I'm actually an off-schedule 3rd year and will graduate in a few weeks, I'm just wondering for the sake of my colleagues just starting.

--Sean

So this is your classmate? Power is an elixir for sure. Also it’s no longer your problems. It’s not your ship to run anymore....

Good luck with whatever comes your way next.
 
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also I see no issue with the Chief and program taking issue with any of the examples you gave, and I'm seriously wondering what you think should be consequences for them, besides the fact you're already told doing any of them that they're unacceptable

not to mention it sounds like with the demerit system you wouldn't necessarily be "punished" immediately, which would have the effect of making you aware of the deficiencies and able to address them before being being censured in a more concrete fashion

people having the issues you state, are often overwhelmed in some fashion (besides being late), so I don't agree that more work will help someone who is drowning, it seems to me that this extra call doesn't necessarily interfere with one becoming more efficient and meeting their duties in a timely fashion and avoiding the extra call

but I could see avoiding extra call as a powerful motivator not to **** off getting notes done on time, etc

that "extra" call likely isn't "extra" in terms of creating more work to be done, it probably has to be covered anyway, sometimes you can't really distribute that entirely evenly, likely this system is actually a more fair way of seeing to who that "extra" goes

As I mentioned above, it doesn't really affect me, I'm done in a few weeks. This issue was raised as a system to penalize one resident in the guise of being fair and equitable. My approach would be to pull the deficient resident aside and discuss why this is occurring and what can be done to improve the efforts of the one resident rather than put a BS system in place to provide negative reinforcement/punishment to an entire group.

I was just told this was not an acceptable method of discipline and was really just wondering if that was true.

--Sean
 
So this is your classmate? Power is an elixir for sure. Also it’s no longer your problems. It’s not your ship to run anymore....

Good luck with whatever comes your way next.

No, he's the 2nd year that has taken over as chief resident. He took over a little early since the prior chief, my classmate didn't want the job any more. and our new "KIng" Resident was chomping at the bit to implement his "ideas" for improving the residency...

--Sean
 
As aPD said, it doesn't sound like anything here is against ACGME rules.

You could suggest to the new chief that it's generally better received if you give rewards for good behavior rather than punishments for bad behavior. But most likely you're not going to find him to be receptive to anything until this plan blows up in his face.
 
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So, as is often the case when you give a little bit of authority to a person who has never held a job outside of residency, our new King (Chief) Resident has decided he will remake the residency program in his own image, and is making a slew of changes, the majority of which are not working.

Amongst these changes are instituting a numerical demerit system for residents that arrive to clinic late, do not do their fair share of administrative work and do not have their office notes completed in a timely fashion.

As the number of demerits increases this results in escalating punishment including adding an additional weekend of call.

Is this ACGME acceptable? One of our attendings believed it was not appropriate to increase workload as a punishment for failing to meet expectations was not permitted under ACGME regulations. I was wondering if any PD's out there new for sure.

Thanks,

--Sean

Must be medicine, this happens rather quite often in surgical residencies to deal with unprofessionalism. It’s probably better to tack on extra call than to fire the person for being late to morning education or clinic.
 
So, as is often the case when you give a little bit of authority to a person who has never held a job outside of residency, our new King (Chief) Resident has decided he will remake the residency program in his own image, and is making a slew of changes, the majority of which are not working.

Amongst these changes are instituting a numerical demerit system for residents that arrive to clinic late, do not do their fair share of administrative work and do not have their office notes completed in a timely fashion.

As the number of demerits increases this results in escalating punishment including adding an additional weekend of call.

Is this ACGME acceptable? One of our attendings believed it was not appropriate to increase workload as a punishment for failing to meet expectations was not permitted under ACGME regulations. I was wondering if any PD's out there new for sure.

Thanks,

--Sean

How about you just focus and make sure you show up to your clinic early and finish your notes in a timely manner?

Your effort will be more useful then and you won't need to worry about extra calls.
 
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I agree that this actually seems like a reasonable and fair solution for a problem resident. What's the other option? One guy gets to miss stuff all the time? Have another heart to heart and hope this will be the one that sticks? Threatening to end his career? Fire him? It seems like everything else is either an over or under reaction.
 
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You could suggest to the new chief that it's generally better received if you give rewards for good behavior rather than punishments for bad behavior.
What rewards does he have to offer? He doesn't have a budget for bonuses. There is no promotions in residency. If the chief takes call from someone he has to give it to someone else (so maybe you can argue the late resident is just doing his part to reward everyone who was on time by taking their call?). Other than the condescending rewards (candy, certificates) a chief has no carrots, only sticks.
 
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What rewards does he have to offer? He doesn't have a budget for bonuses. There is no promotions in residency. If the chief takes call from someone he has to give it to someone else (so maybe you can argue the late resident is just doing his part to reward everyone who was on time by taking their call?). Other than the condescending rewards (candy, certificates) a chief has no carrots, only sticks.
I think the year before I was an intern the chiefs ran some kind of raffle for those who had the best conference attendance. We were required to go to 60% but of course encouraged to go to as close to 100% as possible.

I'd rather sleep in an extra hour here and there than be in the running for an iPad, but that's me.
 
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This issue was raised as a system to penalize one resident in the guise of being fair and equitable.

This is a common theme / problem. There's a balance between strict rules that are "fair" (i.e. everyone is treated the same), and a more loose system that is "humane" (i.e. takes into consideration each person's individual circumstances). The former is easy to implement but is inflexible and often makes you do things you're unhappy with. The latter is more flexible, but a bad actor will twist the system to their benefit. Pick your poison.
 
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I think the year before I was an intern the chiefs ran some kind of raffle for those who had the best conference attendance. We were required to go to 60% but of course encouraged to go to as close to 100% as possible.

I'd rather sleep in an extra hour here and there than be in the running for an iPad, but that's me.

My residency went with the more traditional 'be there or else' system. I don't think I saw anyone miss a morning report. They were also big on calling out people who were looking down at their a phone or ipad during the presentations.
 
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Junior doctors should be encouraged and supported during their training, which is already stressful as it is with the rates of burn-out in our profession. Enforcing a punitive system of demerit points and threats of having to work the graveyard or weekend shifts does not facilitate a healthy workplace environment, and if anything, is probably a human resource nightmare waiting to happen and is a poor reflection of the person and faculty implementing such a dictatorial system. If you wanted a more subtle way of ensuring your colleagues attend and contribute to teaching sessions, then just implement what the Speciality Boards already require: create a CPD program internally at the hospital, such that every quarterly term you should aim to achieve 10 or so CPD points be that in the form of attending teaching sessions or doing online modules at home, plus adding occasional incentives through prizes or awards; this method is much more open, accommodating and supportive, as well as preparing the junior doctor for self-directed learning they'll have to manage themselves as attending physicians; and rather than having crude punishments, if you fail to meet the point requirements for the term then you will have an opportunity to sit down with your mentor in a safe private environment to discuss your situation and what the hospital administration and mentor-supervisor/s can do to help so that you have appropriate protected time away from the wards to attend teaching sessions. Residency programs should be seen as more of a supportive apprenticeship with friendly mentor-trainee relationships, rather than practicing the time-old ritualistic hazing of seniors belittling juniors which only serves the purpose of reinforcing the unwanted toxic culture of hierarchical bullying and massive egos. At the end of the day we're all there to learn from each other and our patients in a respectful and safe environment.
 
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Residency programs should be seen as more of a supportive apprenticeship with friendly mentor-trainee relationships, rather than practicing the time-old ritualistic hazing of seniors belittling juniors which only serves the purpose of reinforcing the unwanted toxic culture of hierarchical bullying and massive egos. A

I agree, but at the end of the day that’s how many programs continue to be run - particularly surgical ones. In many larger (my anesthesia program comes to mind) programs, the chiefs are little more than the disciplinary/scheduling arm of the PD/aPD and are exceedingly unpopular amongst their friends. Thankless job, and honesty I don’t think it means as much as it did back in the day (for smaller programs like surgery, everyone is a Chief their last year).
 
Junior doctors should be encouraged and supported during their training, which is already stressful as it is with the rates of burn-out in our profession. Enforcing a punitive system of demerit points and threats of having to work the graveyard or weekend shifts does not facilitate a healthy workplace environment, and if anything, is probably a human resource nightmare waiting to happen and is a poor reflection of the person and faculty implementing such a dictatorial system. If you wanted a more subtle way of ensuring your colleagues attend and contribute to teaching sessions, then just implement what the Speciality Boards already require: create a CPD program internally at the hospital, such that every quarterly term you should aim to achieve 10 or so CPD points be that in the form of attending teaching sessions or doing online modules at home, plus adding occasional incentives through prizes or awards; this method is much more open, accommodating and supportive, as well as preparing the junior doctor for self-directed learning they'll have to manage themselves as attending physicians; and rather than having crude punishments, if you fail to meet the point requirements for the term then you will have an opportunity to sit down with your mentor in a safe private environment to discuss your situation and what the hospital administration and mentor-supervisor/s can do to help so that you have appropriate protected time away from the wards to attend teaching sessions. Residency programs should be seen as more of a supportive apprenticeship with friendly mentor-trainee relationships, rather than practicing the time-old ritualistic hazing of seniors belittling juniors which only serves the purpose of reinforcing the unwanted toxic culture of hierarchical bullying and massive egos. At the end of the day we're all there to learn from each other and our patients in a respectful and safe environment.

There is a LOT of safe space-ie language in this, but ultimately this post comes down to a basic misunderstanding of the relationship between attendings and residents, or between senior residents/chief residents and junior residents/Interns. Your seniors/attendings are not mentors. They are not colleagues. They are bosses. Similarly residency is not an extension of school, it is a job. When people don't show up to parts of any job there are consequences. Its not 'hazing', its actually generous in that they are trying to create some kind of system of graded punishments rather than just walking the offending resident out of the building. While we want everyone to be an adult learner more than that we need to make sure that they are, at a minimum, adults. That means showing up to work.

Try applying all the blue prose you wrote to another job. Like IT. Or Law. Or McDonalds. "if Mr. Schmuckatelli doesn't show up for his required training before his shift he should have the opportunity to sit down with his shift supervisor in a safe, private environment to discuss his situation and what the franchise management and shift-supervisor can do to help so that he has appropriate protected time away from making hamburgers to attend that meeting. You could also induce a system of prizes that rewards employees who come to a certain percentage of their scheduled trainings or shifts. McDonalds should be seen as a supportive environment with friendly supervisor-worker relationships, rather than practicing the time-old ritual hazing of supervisors insisting that their workers come to shifts and meetings 'or else'. That only serves to reinforce a toxic culture of shift supervisors telling workers what to do. After all, in the end, isn't this really about learning about food service from each other and our customers, rather than some narrow focus on getting hamburgers made?".
 
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Perhaps this is because I’m in Surgery but I agree with Perrotfish. While yes we should be supportive of junior trainees, this is still a damn job. Yes you are receiving “on the job training” but that doesn’t take away from the fact that you are paid to perform certain duties. Complete your paperwork on time, show up where you are supposed to be on time, fulfill your assigned responsibilities on time. These are extremely basic tenets of being an adult with a job.

I get that many new interns have never had a real full-time job before. And that residency takes adjusting to and if someone is struggling to perform then those above them in the hierarchy should investigate the etiology of that struggle and assist if there are ways to help that person be more efficient/evidence-based/timely. But also a graduated system of demerits with specifically laid out punishments for accumulated instances of not meeting minimum expectations, applied across the entire residency/workforce, is actually both fair AND equal. Everyone screws up once in awhile but this system fairly seeks to identify those people who are, for whatever reason, unable or unwilling to self-correct. Working an undesirable shift or extra clinic time is just about the only “stick” available in this setting, short of firing someone. Which is what would happen to an employee who was habitually late or failed to complete their paperwork. The reward/carrot is the paycheck you bring home for fulfilling your responsibilities.
 
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I'm trying real hard to see what the big deal is.

Amongst these changes are instituting a numerical demerit system for residents that arrive to clinic late, do not do their fair share of administrative work and do not have their office notes completed in a timely fashion.

How is this "in his own image". Is he the only one that comes to clinic on time?

I was third year chief in a community program with 12-13 residents per year.. . . I had one intern who left to another specialty, the replacement PGY2 was a bumbling ***** who was fired, and thankfully only a couple babies born. I had to tell my friends, hey sorry. . . so and so can't do this I need you to cover. Another little tidbit of knowledge, it doesn't matter if you are Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Agnostic. . . everyone wants Christmas off. Lots of people got told no, and it wasn't always fair.

Residency is only a few years. I know I made some people unhappy. I'm pretty sure someone thought the power went to my head, but I was just trying to get the work covered, and get my own work done as well.
 
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Meh. I think everyone has different styles of leadership and management; and as the others have said above it's very much dependent on the context of where you're working, with whom you're working with, and what speciality you're practicing in. I would imagine (and wouldn't be surprised) that there is stark contrast between those of us who are in family practice vs. in the surgical specialities.

I work as a family physician in my clinic in rural Australia and I (along with one other family physician) cover the base hospital just down the road. We have a handful of junior doctors (from interns to residents to registrars) and medical students rotating out to our country town throughout the year, and personally, I've found that I achieve much more been a paternalistic educator and mentor rather than distancing myself as some big boss on a high horse. We've used a system where one of us per group is a 'mentor' (to provide counselling or advice to the junior medico if they want or need it) and the other one of us is the 'supervisor' (who does the term performance reports, formative feedback, and wot not), so there is no conflict of interest; and rostering is done between the two of us senior attending doctors and with the help of our impartial admin secretary. We have a open-door policy and we are all on a first-name basis, be that between junior and senior medical staff, as well as between the nursing and allied health. I don't care much for pretentious titles and kowtowing to the boss attitude. If you practice long enough, you start to realise how petty and trivial these things are.

Don't get me wrong, I still have standards. I do expect people to work hard, show-up to work on-time, be professional and respectful, et cetera. I think you can still instil good work ethic and professional standards without the need to employ punitive demoralising and shaming tactics; like, I personally cannot see the benefit in telling my Intern that because I was not satisfied with his discharge summary, I am now docking 'x' demerit points and he's got to work weekends and do night shifts for the next fortnight; similarly, I cannot see the benefit of those senior registrars/residents who insist on belittling and humiliating a junior resident/intern on ward rounds, nor at those who like to talk down to nursing or allied health staff -- this is simply bullying and I cringe when I see colleagues I admire descend to this level of behaviour; I'd personally rather hire a polite half-competent resident than a rude arrogant genius registrar. Just because I was hazed as a junior doesn't mean I have to be a dick to those now under my command now that I'm a senior. Just because something has been done for a long time doesn't make it the right thing to do now. An important thing to realise that senior clinicians have a big influence on the attitudes and experiences junior clinicians take away with them, which in turn influences how they will themselves practice as senior clinicians; I'm probably over-generalising but I would dare to say a lot of people are steered away from surgery based on some select bad experiences during their clinical rotations in that specialty service, which is a pity because it is an excellent specialty at its core but riddled with this toxic hazing culture by a few bad apples who crush the ambitions of junior doctors because of difficult personalities and instances of bullying and lack of trainee support.

With regards to sacking people, of course there are the small percentage of *****s in any line of work who are complete slackers or criminally negligent and have to be dismissed after multiple chances have been made available to them to try and redeem themselves, but to be honest I have found a vast majority of people who do medicine are the 'Type A Personality' and respond to a slap on the wrist verbal sit-down-and-talk warnings and mentoring sessions, or to prepare a presentation. I've only ever dismissed one person in 8 years and he was a complete idiot that clearly didn't want to do medicine, was actually dangerous and blatantly negligent in his practice in medicine; he Ieft me no choice. Otherwise what I've typically done for a small handful of registrars/residents each year is simply fail them for this clinical training term and give them the option of repeating the with me (or my colleague) so that I address the problems instead of shafting them to another health district to be someone else's problem. (Perhaps this is a luxury of the Australian public health system, since a vast majority of the salaries paid to doctors-in-training is subsidised by the state government.)

In my opinion, I don't think medicine is like any other industry in terms of its job and training requirements. I don't think you can compare going to Maccas and been a fry cook (which so happened to be my first job) to medicine; funnily enough, even at Maccas, I had a senior crew member in the kitchen stand by me and patiently teach or "mentor" me on how to best cook the meat paddies and prepare the buns for the first few days I was there, and believe me, I was incompetent as they come and made a waste-bin of mistakes without getting penalised. The thing about medicine is that it is as much about service delivery (i.e. the "job" part; rostering, workforce-workload management, etc.) as much as it is about the ongoing traineeship of junior doctors to become senior ones (i.e. the "school" part still very much continues in the hospitals and clinics) -- of course there is a higher standard now that you're in a professional workplace of a hospital/clinic, but how many other professions have senior doctors blatantly acting as teachers right at the bedside of their patients with sometimes 10 or more junior doctors / medical students huddled around like as if they were still a tutorial room back at uni. I don't know about America, but in Australia, we have recognised this, and written into a majority of junior doctor contracts and specialty college training programs that there is protected teaching time away from clinical duties during the work week, that there allocation of senior doctor mentors (on a voluntary basis on the part of the junior doctor), and that junior doctors shouldn't be penalised in such a fashion of having to pull extra shifts because they sucked at doing something they're still actually learning to do. Speciality board and colleges are also enforcing their members (as a mandatory component of their CPD) to partake in education and training workshops so as to improve our approaches with managing the difficult trainee and addressing the issue of increasing mental health awareness and physician burn-out amongst our ranks -- largely because Australia has had several junior (and senior) doctors commit suicide in the last couple of years. Medicine is premised on progressive evidence-based practice, we should apply the same attitude with how we manage our junior staff; simply encouraging a hazing culture which has been done for the last century is not conducive by any modern standard.
 
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Meh. I think everyone has different styles of leadership and management; and as the others have said above it's very much dependent on the context of where you're working, with whom you're working with, and what speciality you're practicing in. I would imagine (and wouldn't be surprised) that there is stark contrast between those of us who are in family practice vs. in the surgical specialities.

I work as a family physician in my clinic in rural Australia and I (along with one other family physician) cover the base hospital just down the road. We have a handful of junior doctors (from interns to residents to registrars) and medical students rotating out to our country town throughout the year, and personally, I've found that I achieve much more been a paternalistic educator and mentor rather than distancing myself as some big boss on a high horse. We've used a system where one of us per group is a 'mentor' (to provide counselling or advice to the junior medico if they want or need it) and the other one of us is the 'supervisor' (who does the term performance reports, formative feedback, and wot not), so there is no conflict of interest; and rostering is done between the two of us senior attending doctors and with the help of our impartial admin secretary. We have a open-door policy and we are all on a first-name basis, be that between junior and senior medical staff, as well as between the nursing and allied health. I don't care much for pretentious titles and kowtowing to the boss attitude. If you practice long enough, you start to realise how petty and trivial these things are.

Don't get me wrong, I still have standards. I do expect people to work hard, show-up to work on-time, be professional and respectful, et cetera. I think you can still instil good work ethic and professional standards without the need to employ punitive demoralising and shaming tactics; like, I personally cannot see the benefit in telling my Intern that because I was not satisfied with his discharge summary, I am now docking 'x' demerit points and he's got to work weekends and do night shifts for the next fortnight; similarly, I cannot see the benefit of those senior registrars/residents who insist on belittling and humiliating a junior resident/intern on ward rounds, nor at those who like to talk down to nursing or allied health staff -- this is simply bullying and I cringe when I see colleagues I admire descend to this level of behaviour; I'd personally rather hire a polite half-competent resident than a rude arrogant genius registrar. Just because I was hazed as a junior doesn't mean I have to be a dick to those now under my command now that I'm a senior. Just because something has been done for a long time doesn't make it the right thing to do now. An important thing to realise that senior clinicians have a big influence on the attitudes and experiences junior clinicians take away with them, which in turn influences how they will themselves practice as senior clinicians; I'm probably over-generalising but I would dare to say a lot of people are steered away from surgery based on some select bad experiences during their clinical rotations in that specialty service, which is a pity because it is an excellent specialty at its core but riddled with this toxic hazing culture by a few bad apples who crush the ambitions of junior doctors because of difficult personalities and instances of bullying and lack of trainee support.

With regards to sacking people, of course there are the small percentage of *****s in any line of work who are complete slackers or criminally negligent and have to be dismissed after multiple chances have been made available to them to try and redeem themselves, but to be honest I have found a vast majority of people who do medicine are the 'Type A Personality' and respond to a slap on the wrist verbal sit-down-and-talk warnings and mentoring sessions, or to prepare a presentation. I've only ever dismissed one person in 8 years and he was a complete idiot that clearly didn't want to do medicine, was actually dangerous and blatantly negligent in his practice in medicine; he Ieft me no choice. Otherwise what I've typically done for a small handful of registrars/residents each year is simply fail them for this clinical training term and give them the option of repeating the with me (or my colleague) so that I address the problems instead of shafting them to another health district to be someone else's problem. (Perhaps this is a luxury of the Australian public health system, since a vast majority of the salaries paid to doctors-in-training is subsidised by the state government.)

In my opinion, I don't think medicine is like any other industry in terms of its job and training requirements. I don't think you can compare going to Maccas and been a fry cook (which so happened to be my first job) to medicine; funnily enough, even at Maccas, I had a senior crew member in the kitchen stand by me and patiently teach or "mentor" me on how to best cook the meat paddies and prepare the buns for the first few days I was there, and believe me, I was incompetent as they come and made a waste-bin of mistakes without getting penalised. The thing about medicine is that it is as much about service delivery (i.e. the "job" part; rostering, workforce-workload management, etc.) as much as it is about the ongoing traineeship of junior doctors to become senior ones (i.e. the "school" part still very much continues in the hospitals and clinics) -- of course there is a higher standard now that you're in a professional workplace of a hospital/clinic, but how many other professions have senior doctors blatantly acting as teachers right at the bedside of their patients with sometimes 10 or more junior doctors / medical students huddled around like as if they were still a tutorial room back at uni. I don't know about America, but in Australia, we have recognised this, and written into a majority of junior doctor contracts and specialty college training programs that there is protected teaching time away from clinical duties during the work week, that there allocation of senior doctor mentors (on a voluntary basis on the part of the junior doctor), and that junior doctors shouldn't be penalised in such a fashion of having to pull extra shifts because they sucked at doing something they're still actually learning to do. Speciality board and colleges are also enforcing their members (as a mandatory component of their CPD) to partake in education and training workshops so as to improve our approaches with managing the difficult trainee and addressing the issue of increasing mental health awareness and physician burn-out amongst our ranks -- largely because Australia has had several junior (and senior) doctors commit suicide in the last couple of years. Medicine is premised on progressive evidence-based practice, we should apply the same attitude with how we manage our junior staff; simply encouraging a hazing culture which has been done for the last century is not conducive by any modern standard.

This post is 1213 words long.
 
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Perhaps this is because I’m in Surgery but I agree with Perrotfish. While yes we should be supportive of junior trainees, this is still a damn job. Yes you are receiving “on the job training” but that doesn’t take away from the fact that you are paid to perform certain duties. Complete your paperwork on time, show up where you are supposed to be on time, fulfill your assigned responsibilities on time. These are extremely basic tenets of being an adult with a job.
FWIW, I'm in peds and I still agree with this. I know I'm getting into "back in my day" territory even though my day was not long ago at all (hell, I'm still in fellowship), but there's a difference between the ACGME enforcing reasonable duty hours, and basic concepts of professionalism like showing up on time and completing your documentation.
 
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So, as is often the case when you give a little bit of authority to a person who has never held a job outside of residency, our new King (Chief) Resident has decided he will remake the residency program in his own image, and is making a slew of changes, the majority of which are not working.

Amongst these changes are instituting a numerical demerit system for residents that arrive to clinic late, do not do their fair share of administrative work and do not have their office notes completed in a timely fashion.

As the number of demerits increases this results in escalating punishment including adding an additional weekend of call.

Is this ACGME acceptable? One of our attendings believed it was not appropriate to increase workload as a punishment for failing to meet expectations was not permitted under ACGME regulations. I was wondering if any PD's out there new for sure.

Thanks,

--Sean

I see no problem with any of this.

If it is such a big issue, let the residents complain to the PD then if they are that unhappy with these rules. It's not like the guy has unlimited power, he's still a damn resident who has to answer to the PD etc.
 
So if you’re the resident who actually shows up on time and completes paperwork as assigned, this chief gets you LESS call?!?!

I would vote for them and openly debate you in the PD’s office if you trash talk them

Hail to the chief!
 
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My approach would be to pull the deficient resident aside and discuss why this is occurring and what can be done to improve the efforts of the one resident rather than put a BS system in place to provide negative reinforcement/punishment to an entire group.

Except you have no idea if this has already been done or not. You're not privy to that information and you never will be (no matter how much you think you are being told the truth). Being chief is difficult because there's a lot you can't tell anyone. You come out looking like the dingus when, in fact, the resident being "disciplined" has had 100 chances and talking tos and has continued to show up late, be delinquent in notes, bully others, etc, etc, etc. Everyone rallies around the resident as a victim and the chief can't defend the decision or even explain it because doing so would be breaking the confidentiality of said resident. Give the chief a break and stay out of this. Your colleague needs to show up on time, complete their notes, and do the administrative work everyone else is doing. In short, tell your colleague to grow up and be an adult. He/she is a doctor now. Time to act like it.
 
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Sounds like y’all better start showing up on time to clinic...

Seriously. It sounds like there's a new Sheriff in town.

Sometimes residents take their cue from higher-ups, so any changes will have to involve attendings too. It's hard to have people come to morning report on time when faculty don't show up either or expect people to come to clinic on time when attendings are perpetually late.

Regarding lecture attendance, there are genuine reasons a person may miss a lecture (e.g., critically ill patients, etc), but almost everywhere I've been has struggled with attendance unless there is a reward/punishment system in place. Certain teams (ICU, on-call resident) can be excused, but everyone else needs to attend without BS. I see no reason why you shouldn't take an extra call if you ditch mandatory meetings. If an attending makes you miss a lecture for a non-urgent matter ("skip lecture and see my office patient in the hospital for me") they should be held to account too.
 
Yes, we have some problem residents that exhibit immature behaviors. We have a chief resident who has never been in charge of anything in his life, and believes chief resident is a supervisory position. It is not. Chief resident (at least in our residency) is someone that does more paperwork and has a little more responsibility in setting the schedule, going to admin meetings and running orientation for incoming medical students every 4 weeks. He has, however, taken it upon himself to "reinvent" our wheel.

This, as well as the other issues with the other residents not showing up on time, are a problem with the system of medical education, where people go to high school, college, and medical school and residency is their first job in their life.

Like i said before, I'm almost done with residency, this is not my problem anymore. I am not the one showing up on time late. I'm also a nontraditional student and worked for 15 years in the medical field prior to attending medical school. I have always treated residency like a job. But these kids today...

I just asked a simple question: "Can a residency program implement punishment that results in adding to a resident's workload and hours?

--Sean
 
Yes, we have some problem residents that exhibit immature behaviors. We have a chief resident who has never been in charge of anything in his life, and believes chief resident is a supervisory position. It is not. Chief resident (at least in our residency) is someone that does more paperwork and has a little more responsibility in setting the schedule, going to admin meetings and running orientation for incoming medical students every 4 weeks. He has, however, taken it upon himself to "reinvent" our wheel.

This, as well as the other issues with the other residents not showing up on time, are a problem with the system of medical education, where people go to high school, college, and medical school and residency is their first job in their life.

Like i said before, I'm almost done with residency, this is not my problem anymore. I am not the one showing up on time late. I'm also a nontraditional student and worked for 15 years in the medical field prior to attending medical school. I have always treated residency like a job. But these kids today...

I just asked a simple question: "Can a residency program implement punishment that results in adding to a resident's workload and hours?

--Sean

Ok the simple answer is: yes, as long as it works within the rules otherwise set by ACGME workhours.
 
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Yeah as that was answer by a PD in the 2nd response, I figured that was obvious.

Apparently not.

It was, I was just commenting on some of the snarkiness that followed, apparently my description of my program's problems was not taken kindly by some of the other residents/chief residents who may have personalized/projected some of my comments to their own situations...
 
It was, I was just commenting on some of the snarkiness that followed, apparently my description of my program's problems was not taken kindly by some of the other residents/chief residents who may have personalized/projected some of my comments to their own situations...

You posted a question on an open forum. You don’t control the responses you get; people are going to give their opinions, especially when you presented the issue/question in the manner you did. Suck it up buttercup.

FWIW, it sounds like the wheel needs to be reinvented wherever you are. If people are doing what they should be, then they don’t need to worry about the consequences of not doing it.
 
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So, as is often the case when you give a little bit of authority to a person who has never held a job outside of residency, our new King (Chief) Resident has decided he will remake the residency program in his own image, and is making a slew of changes, the majority of which are not working.

Amongst these changes are instituting a numerical demerit system for residents that arrive to clinic late, do not do their fair share of administrative work and do not have their office notes completed in a timely fashion.

As the number of demerits increases this results in escalating punishment including adding an additional weekend of call.

In a post lower down you also stated that you've "worked for 15 years in the medical field". As such you must be familiar with the concept that many workplaces enforce rules such as showing up on time for work. If it's gotten to the point where being late for clinic needs to be penalized in a formal fashion there is a systematic problem that needs to be addressed. People should be given the opportunity to get to clinic (i.e. residents leave for onsite 1pm clinic at 12:50pm, all other work must stop and a system to permit this must be in place) but after that people just need to show up on time.

Above all else, you have to have your office notes completed in a timely fashion. It is one of the fastest way to run into problems at any stage of training or your career. I have personally seen a physician not get hired because their last hospital reported they were delinquent in their documentation. Everything else about them checked out but the documentation issue killed the offer letter from the hospital. There are also very commonly incentives (finish all your notes on time, your office staff gets a free lunch within a practice owned by a hospital) and disincentives (you are no longer eligible for annual bonuses or profit sharing) to note completion which further has significant downstream effects on billing and actual clinical care.

The only unclear point is "fair share of adminstrative work" but as long as that's been discussed and clearly delineated in some type of fairly impartial standard where the work falls on everyone equally you should be expected to do your share.

You should ask yourself whether your workplace is dysfunctional enough to require some of these common sense guidelines to be spelled out (show up on time, do your share, write down what you did after you did it) and if so, how to best go about fixing it.
 
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