New med schools

[Redpen200]

What do you guys think of applying to the bran new medical schools opening next year (e.g. FL International, U of Central FL, etc.)? They seem to be in pretty nice locations and have bran new facilities, but do you think it would be a bad choice to be a student in their inaugural class? First off, there will only be about 40 students in the class (good or bad). Also, they will probably still be working out a lot of the kinks. What do you guys think???

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[SirGecko]

Are you a Florida resident? I'm pretty sure that the inaugural class for U of Central Florida all get to go there for free so thats a pretty good deal.

Honestly though I think new schools don't get their accreditation until they graduate a class so there is a risk there. (I may be wrong though? not sure)

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Don't do it unless the schools make you a financial offer you can't refuse. Even with the best of intentions they will likely be unable to provide you with the same level of mentoring and opportunity a more established institution could.

You really don't want to be on the interview trail for residency and have the PD say "where?"

 

[darkelven29]

University of Central Flordia is offering full ride to all 40 students. I say take it!!!!! They might not be great in mentoring/teaching yet but as long as you study for your Step 1 and do well.... Find great doctors in the community to learn, it should be fine! And you can be a leader in forming their medical education and save like $120,000!!!!

 

[DAKAZA]

University of Central Flordia is offering full ride to all 40 students. I say take it!!!!! They might not be great in mentoring/teaching yet but as long as you study for your Step 1 and do well.... Find great doctors in the community to learn, it should be fine! And you can be a leader in forming their medical education and save like $120,000!!!!

Holy ****! What about Oakland University's MD school which starts 2010? Will they be offering full rides too?

 

[AlberttheGator]

Doesn't make sense to open up new med schools when new residency programs are not going to be opening up. Just means less residencies for the new number of med students.

It was a stupid thing for the state legislature to do. So where are all these students going to go if there aren't new residencies opening up? The new florida students will end up leaving the state for residency, because what should of happened is that the state legislature should have expanded the residencies and not open up new med schools.

Its counterintuitive, then again what does the state government know about running a medical education.

 

[Raryn]

Doesn't make sense to open up new med schools when new residency programs are not going to be opening up. Just means less residencies for the new number of med students.

It was a stupid thing for the state legislature to do. So where are all these students going to go if there aren't new residencies opening up? The new florida students will end up leaving the state for residency, because what should of happened is that the state legislature should have expanded the residencies and not open up new med schools.

Its counterintuitive, then again what does the state government know about running a medical education.

Uh. One third of residency slots go to foreign graduates. The extra US graduates will be taking up those spots...

 

[redlight]

Doesn't make sense to open up new med schools when new residency programs are not going to be opening up. Just means less residencies for the new number of med students.

It was a stupid thing for the state legislature to do. So where are all these students going to go if there aren't new residencies opening up? The new florida students will end up leaving the state for residency, because what should of happened is that the state legislature should have expanded the residencies and not open up new med schools.

Its counterintuitive, then again what does the state government know about running a medical education.

well i read somewhere on sdn that there are way more residency programs than graduating med students. thats why hospital residency programs import foreign doctors, apparently.

people that don't get matched just didn't have the stats or didn't pick wisely enough to get in somewhere (or perhaps they just picked places they really like/were too competitive and were just unlucky).

 

[redlight]

Uh. One third of residency slots go to foreign graduates. The extra US graduates will be taking up those spots...

dang, beat me to it...

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Doesn't make sense to open up new med schools when new residency programs are not going to be opening up. Just means less residencies for the new number of med students.

It was a stupid thing for the state legislature to do. So where are all these students going to go if there aren't new residencies opening up? The new florida students will end up leaving the state for residency, because what should of happened is that the state legislature should have expanded the residencies and not open up new med schools.

Its counterintuitive, then again what does the state government know about running a medical education.

Yes and no.

In 2008 there were about...

-22k PGY-1 spots availabe in the Match.
-21k PGY-1 spots filled in the Match
-16k American allopathic students applying for positions.

That means that there were about 5000 "others" who matched. These people are DOs, IMGs, American who graduated offshore, and older docs applying to another program.

If we add a few hundred, even a thousand to the number of American allopathic graduates over the next few years it is unlikely that the American allopaths will feel the pinch. What is more likely is that the Match will become comensurately more difficult for DOs, IMGs, etc. You would be hard pressed to find a PD who preferred international grads to American grads.

www.nrmp.org

 

[pianola]

Good question...I've been waiting for someone to bring up our Florida schools!

UCF is an offer to which *most* people would have a hard time saying no. I mean, IMAGINE graduating med school with $0 in loans. It's unreal. And it would be tremendously exciting to be part of an inaugural class -- pathbreakers!

On the other hand, one of my friends in Orlando was expressing some concern over the faculty teaching in the school. She didn't explain why she was concerned about the faculty, though.

FIU I don't know about. They're going to have some stiff competition against UCF, that's for sure. Not to mention the alread-established schools!

I think I would definitely check out UCF thoroughly before committing (assuming I'm lucky enough to be interviewed!!). I mean, it's still an unknown so there are lots of questions to be asked.

I predict we'll have some interesting upcoming threads about the interview experience as people start getting interviewed for UCF...

Thoughts?? Other Floridians or students attending new Schools of Medicine???

 

[pianola]

Doesn't make sense to open up new med schools when new residency programs are not going to be opening up. Just means less residencies for the new number of med students.

It was a stupid thing for the state legislature to do. So where are all these students going to go if there aren't new residencies opening up? The new florida students will end up leaving the state for residency, because what should of happened is that the state legislature should have expanded the residencies and not open up new med schools.

Its counterintuitive, then again what does the state government know about running a medical education.

Well, certainly our established medical schools are in need of support as well!!! I don't know much about residencies but I would argue that reducing UF's current stipend will not help it one bit.

 

[pianola]

P.S. I believe I read something about UCF being a "model of accreditation" for LCME.

I certainly wish them the best either way! Starting up a new school will be a challenge, I'm sure.

I heard that both FIU and UCF received preliminary accrediation, if that helps any...(and it may not).

 

[Law2Doc]

Yes and no.

In 2008 there were about...

-22k PGY-1 spots availabe in the Match.
-21k PGY-1 spots filled in the Match
-16k American allopathic students applying for positions.

That means that there were about 5000 "others" who matched. These people are DOs, IMGs, American who graduated offshore, and older docs applying to another program.

If we add a few hundred, even a thousand to the number of American allopathic graduates over the next few years it is unlikely that the American allopaths will feel the pinch. What is more likely is that the Match will become comensurately more difficult for DOs, IMGs, etc. You would be hard pressed to find a PD who preferred international grads to American grads.

www.nrmp.org

Yep. If you read some of the AAMC position papers from 2005-6, it's pretty clear that they feel strongly that US school grads should fill US residency needs, and that they don't like the idea of US students going offshore for med school to schools without LCME quality control. So this increasing med school ranks without increasing residencies is likely at least partially meant to push some of the offshore crowd out of the game. The downside is that more and more US students are going to find themselves stuck with a choice of various primary care positions previously only wanted by the offshore crowd.

 

[AlberttheGator]

Yes and no.

In 2008 there were about...

-22k PGY-1 spots availabe in the Match.
-21k PGY-1 spots filled in the Match
-16k American allopathic students applying for positions.

That means that there were about 5000 "others" who matched. These people are DOs, IMGs, American who graduated offshore, and older docs applying to another program.

If we add a few hundred, even a thousand to the number of American allopathic graduates over the next few years it is unlikely that the American allopaths will feel the pinch. What is more likely is that the Match will become comensurately more difficult for DOs, IMGs, etc. You would be hard pressed to find a PD who preferred international grads to American grads.

www.nrmp.org

I guess I should have been more specific. This is just pertaining to the new MD schools in Florida. Because Florida just also recently opened up LECOM Bradenton, FSU, UCF, and the FAU campus.

Now if the goal of the state legislature is to increase the number of physicians staying in florida, then increasing the number of med school without expanding the residencies in the state of florida just means that the original purpose of creating new med schools is defeated. Because now there are more med students in florida with the same number of residency slots. So this increase in med school students will have no effect in increasing the physician shortage in florida, because more students will end up leaving the state of florida.

I'm just bringing the message that Dean Klasko, dean of USF COM, specifically told my class, Class of 2011 in a class meeting. He stated this and that the administrations of med schools in the state of florida do not agree with this maneuver by the florida state legislature, specifically. Dean Klasko specifically stated that the legislature should have expanded the residency spots in florida instead of creating new med schools.

These new students will not end up staying in the state of florida which was the original purpose of the Florida state legislature in its actions in creating new med schools. They think they are doing the state a big favor when in fact they are doing other states a big favor b/c this overflow of med students will eventually have to leave the state of florida b/c there will not be enough residencies to accommodate the new med school's students.

 

[pianola]

I guess I should have been more specific. This is just pertaining to the new MD schools in Florida. Because Florida just also recently opened up LECOM Bradenton, FSU, UCF, and the FAU campus.

Now if the goal of the state legislature is to increase the number of physicians staying in florida, then increasing the number of med school without expanding the residencies in the state of florida just means that the original purpose of creating new med schools is defeated. Because now there are more med students in florida with the same number of residency slots. So this increase in med school students will have no effect in increasing the physician shortage in florida, because more students will end up leaving the state of florida.

I'm just bringing the message that Dean Klasko, dean of USF COM, specifically told my class, Class of 2011 in a class meeting. He stated this and that the administrations of med schools in the state of florida do not agree with this maneuver by the florida state legislature, specifically. Dean Klasko specifically stated that the legislature should have expanded the residency spots in florida instead of creating new med schools.

These new students will not end up staying in the state of florida which was the original purpose of the Florida state legislature in its actions in creating new med schools. They think they are doing the state a big favor when in fact they are doing other states a big favor b/c this overflow of med students will eventually have to leave the state of florida b/c there will not be enough residencies to accommodate the new med school's students.

Well, arguably it's still good for Florida's students, right? I mean, maybe these future med students won't stay in Florida for residency. Is that so very bad, though?

What is LECOM Bradenton? I hadn't heard of it. Also is FAU the Boca Raton division of UMiami?

 

[ChimpanzeeMinky]

UCF is an offer to which *most* people would have a hard time saying no. I mean, IMAGINE graduating med school with $0 in loans. It's unreal.

Unless you had enough savings to pay for everything above and beyond tuition, you'd still be graduating with significant loans. Of the amount I will need to borrow, only a little over $100k is for tuition, with the remaining $120k going to other costs.

A great saving, no doubt, going tuition-free, but hardly a debt-free panacea.

 

[BlackPower2012]

Hey all, there is a new medical school that will open for the fall of 2009 AND is an MD program. Its Hofstra University, which is in Long Island, NY. I have a couple of friends who attend the college and told me that they will be opening up a medical school very soon. the website for the college is www.Hofstra.edu and just look for the news on the homepage. Hope this helps
Take Care

PS-The first years class I hear is going to be only about 30 people and the school is affiliated with A major hospital within the area. Also, the campus for Hofstra is absolutlely AMAZING so I hope this helps.

 

[jjmack]

I feel like these schools are set up to fail (with there intended goal). Isn't the problem in the US that we don't have enough primary care docs? Do you think that most of the people going to these new schools want to go into IM, FM, and peds? I certainly don't think so...they will want derm, rads, etc...

 

[michwolverine]

Re the new med school at Hofstra: their web site says they hope to admit their first class in 2011, not 2009.

http://medicine.hofstra.edu/

 

[p30doc]

I would love to attend either new florida school, especially UCF. I doubt I would turn down free tutition, but I am sure those feelings can quickly change once interviews roll around.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I guess I should have been more specific. This is just pertaining to the new MD schools in Florida. Because Florida just also recently opened up LECOM Bradenton, FSU, UCF, and the FAU campus.

Now if the goal of the state legislature is to increase the number of physicians staying in florida, then increasing the number of med school without expanding the residencies in the state of florida just means that the original purpose of creating new med schools is defeated. Because now there are more med students in florida with the same number of residency slots. So this increase in med school students will have no effect in increasing the physician shortage in florida, because more students will end up leaving the state of florida.

I'm just bringing the message that Dean Klasko, dean of USF COM, specifically told my class, Class of 2011 in a class meeting. He stated this and that the administrations of med schools in the state of florida do not agree with this maneuver by the florida state legislature, specifically. Dean Klasko specifically stated that the legislature should have expanded the residency spots in florida instead of creating new med schools.

These new students will not end up staying in the state of florida which was the original purpose of the Florida state legislature in its actions in creating new med schools. They think they are doing the state a big favor when in fact they are doing other states a big favor b/c this overflow of med students will eventually have to leave the state of florida b/c there will not be enough residencies to accommodate the new med school's students.

That doesn't really make sense. I might be wrong but it seems like you are assuming there are more spots in medical school in FA than there are residency positions which is probably not the case.

A quick search on FREIDA (the online residency database) shows that there are 15 FM and Psych residencies in Florida. Looking at a few websites I can see that they are full of IMGs. Not to say that every student from these new schools is going to go into one of these fields but it does show you that there are spots in FL being taken by non-US allopaths.

I repeat: US allopaths are not (by-in-large) going to feel the pinch as this difference between number of medical students and residency spots shrinks. If we had 22k residency spots and 22k US allopathic grads the allopathic Match would likely be essentially closed to DOs and IMGs.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I feel like these schools are set up to fail (with there intended goal). Isn't the problem in the US that we don't have enough primary care docs? Do you think that most of the people going to these new schools want to go into IM, FM, and peds? I certainly don't think so...they will want derm, rads, etc...

Partially. While there is no question that we need more primary care docs we also need alot of other specialists.

My chosen field (EM) is considered by some ill-informed pre-meds/med students to be a fantastic "lifestyle" field. That's a debate for a different thread but I think we can all agree that EM is a relatively sought-after, sexy residency.

Almost every authority predicts a bad shortage of emergency physicians in the next few decades. The numbers show pretty definitively that we are no where near covering every ED in the country with BC emergency physicians 24/7. Is the shortage of primary care or emergency care more dangerous? That's impossible to calculate. Intensive care is projected to be another massively short specialty.

You do raise a good point though, most of the "open" residency spots are in "less desired" specialties like FM, Psych, and commuity IM programs. Competition for derm, radiology, etc, etc will likely get more fierce in the future.

 

[Law2Doc]

I feel like these schools are set up to fail (with there intended goal). Isn't the problem in the US that we don't have enough primary care docs? Do you think that most of the people going to these new schools want to go into IM, FM, and peds? I certainly don't think so...they will want derm, rads, etc...

You can want a competitive residency all you want, but the majority of residency slots are still in primary care. So the more US students generated, the more residency slots get filled by US students and the more of these end up in the primary care slots that traditionally had gone to the offshore crowd. So sure, if a state increases its ranks of med students by 20%, this probably translates to 20% more people not getting competitive residencies.

 

[sacrament]

I feel like these schools are set up to fail (with there intended goal). Isn't the problem in the US that we don't have enough primary care docs? Do you think that most of the people going to these new schools want to go into IM, FM, and peds? I certainly don't think so...they will want derm, rads, etc...

I don't think the people who will end up going to a brand-new, unproven and unaccredited school are the same people who are gunning for derm. If they are, then they have a somewhat distorted view of reality.

 

[Law2Doc]

I don't think the people who will end up going to a brand-new, unproven and unaccredited school are the same people who are gunning for derm. If they are, then they have a somewhat distorted view of reality.

I think at least some of them have received preliminary accredition from the LCME. I don't think a school can accept students until it has been accredited and still get accredited. But yeah, if you graduate at the top of an LCME accredited school (however new) with an amazing board score, I see no reason why you couldn't shoot for derm. What I'm saying though is if you add US med students without adding residency slots, you are adding more US folks into primary care because those are the slots that aren't being filled by US med students. Doesn't really matter whether it's these particular med students or whether they displace others from more established schools into these slots. It's gonna happen.

 

[sacrament]

But yeah, if you graduate at the top of an LCME accredited school (however new) with an amazing board score, I see no reason why you couldn't shoot for derm.

People get weeded out from derm because their interviewer doesn't like the shoes they're wearing, or maybe they ate their steak with the salad fork. The application pool is the cream of the gunners, one stellar beautiful person after another. They are looking for a reason to cross off your name, and graduating from a sparkly new med school is at least two reasons worth.

What I'm saying though is if you add US med students without adding residency slots, you are adding more US folks into primary care because those are the slots that aren't being filled by US med students.

Indisputably true.

 

[SirGecko]

I think at least some of them have received preliminary accredition from the LCME. I don't think a school can accept students until it has been accredited and still get accredited.

Oh yeh, they definitely have started the accreditation process but I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere it isn't finished till you graduate a class. So they are still under review if you are the first class to go through the curriculum. (I wouldn't expect them to fail accreditation but you never know, I know UH was almost in hot water a few years ago about keeping theirs so accreditation isn't a walk in the park)

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Oh yeh, they definitely have started the accreditation process but I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere it isn't finished till you graduate a class. So they are still under review if you are the first class to go through the curriculum. (I wouldn't expect them to fail accreditation but you never know, I know UH was almost in hot water a few years ago about keeping theirs so accreditation isn't a walk in the park)

Uh, for you pre-meds considering applying to these schools make sure you look into that. You really don't want to get a nasty surprise in your 4th year.

 

[AlberttheGator]

That doesn't really make sense. I might be wrong but it seems like you are assuming there are more spots in medical school in FA than there are residency positions which is probably not the case.

A quick search on FREIDA (the online residency database) shows that there are 15 FM and Psych residencies in Florida. Looking at a few websites I can see that they are full of IMGs. Not to say that every student from these new schools is going to go into one of these fields but it does show you that there are spots in FL being taken by non-US allopaths.

I repeat: US allopaths are not (by-in-large) going to feel the pinch as this difference between number of medical students and residency spots shrinks. If we had 22k residency spots and 22k US allopathic grads the allopathic Match would likely be essentially closed to DOs and IMGs.

I'm not disputing anything you guys are saying. I don't really care b/c this does not affect me.

I'm just giving you the opinion of the majority of people who sit on the pedestal of medical school administration, which include Dean Klasko and Dr. Bognar of USF. And they heavily disagree with the opening of new med schools without the expansion of residencies. In short, there opinion is that this maneuver is very short sighted and does not correct for the physician shortage that the state of Florida is experiencing.

 

[Hyperstudyosis]

I went to the symposium of the FL medical schools in March. I was very unimpressed with FIU's program and presentation, however UCF's program was very impressive. I love what I learned of their curriculum and I think the school is going to be great. Plus, the idea of free medical school is very appealing. Some people say it's not so great because they don't get their official accredation until the first class is done, however I have no doubt at all that they will get it. If I were applying this cycle, I would definitely apply there. By the way, the dean of the med school is an INCREDIBLE lady with so much life experience in medicine.

 

[cdmccart]

How competetive do you think these new schools are going to be?

 

[SirGecko]

Well since UCF is going to be free this year... I'd say pretty darn competitive.

The others will probably have a lot of applicants that decide to go somewhere else. (but I think the free tuition thing is going to grab a lot of people for UCF)

 

[Hyperstudyosis]

Admission to UCF is definitely going to be VERY competitive since it's free and they have an incredible program. Plus, they are only admitting 40 students. I think FIU admission will be much less competitive because they are not offering any "special deal" like UCF is. Plus, their facilities are not as nice (come on, they're using only the 4th floor of a building they currently have until they get the new facilities built). I realize that UCF doesn't have all their facilities built yet, but what they have now is much nicer than what FIU has now.