New NJ Law Requiring All HCW to Clearly Identify Degree and Training

[Qwerty122]

Excerpts taken directly from the bill itself that I hope can shed more light to this issue:

2. The Legislature finds and declares that:

a. There are a multitude of professional degrees using the term “doctor,” including “medical doctor” (M.D.); “doctor of osteopathy” (D.O.); “doctor of dental surgery” (D.D.S.); “doctor of podiatric medicine” (D.P.M.); “doctor of optometry” (O.D.); “doctor of chiropractic” (D.C.); “doctor of nursing” (D.N.); and other designations which may be used by health care professionals.

b. A July 2018 study by the American Medical Association found that 27 percent of patients erroneously believe that a chiropractor is a medical doctor; 39 percent of patients erroneously believe that a doctor of nursing practice is a medical doctor; 43 percent of patients erroneously believe that a psychologist is a medical doctor; 47 percent of patients erroneously believe that an optometrist is a medical doctor; and 67 percent of patients erroneously believe a podiatrist is a medical doctor.

c. There are widespread differences regarding the training and qualifications required to earn the degrees of the health care professionals subject to P.L. , c. (C. ) (pending before the Legislature as this bill). These differences often concern the training and skills necessary to correctly detect, diagnose, prevent and treat serious health care conditions.

d. There is a compelling state interest in patients being promptly and clearly informed of the training and qualifications of the health care professionals who provide health care services.

e. There is a compelling state interest in the public being protected from potentially misleading and deceptive health care advertising that might cause patients to have undue expectations regarding their treatment and outcome.

Y'all can claim that anyone who got a doctorate degree should hold the title of a doctor, and while it is true, it is also true that a significant percentage of patients attribute any "doctor" in a medical setting as a medical doctor, as an individual most qualified and most trained in medicine (see point 2b).

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[Damson]

Pretty sure atm we're also referring to inpatient podiatrists / psychologists / optometrists / audiologists as Dr. [last name].

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

There have been several cases of nurse practitioners introducing themselves as doctors, the patient’s parents assuming they were doctors, the child dying from inappropriate care. The NP societies are trying to sweep these cases under the rug, but it’s deceptive.

This is what happens when people misrepresent themselves and confuse patients. The amount of training between a “doctor of nursing” from an online diploma mill and a physician who underwent 4 years of med school and 3-6 years of residency is not even close to comparable. Although the American medical association agrees, the NP lobby is very powerful and I personally have seen people without an MD or DO introduce themselves as doctors and anesthesiologists and even “traumatologists” because they have doctorate degrees. So hey, everyone is a “doctor” now, aren’t they?

I’m sure your 86 year old grandma having a heart attack in the ED who sees someone introducing themselves as “doctor smith” will be sure to check their badge or coat to make sure it’s an MD or DO, who had 11 years and 16,000 clinical training hours with 80 hour weeks and sleepless nights, versus someone with 2 years and 500-1500 hours online who is working without ANY backup or supervision (unlike residents)? No? You don’t want that for your family member?

Call yourself whatever you want on your own time. Put as many letters behind your name as you want. But if you’re in an environment with sick people who don’t understand that “doctor is an academic term,” don’t take advantage of their vulnerability so you can pretend you survived medical school.

 

[Lawpy]

Pretty sure atm we're also referring to inpatient podiatrists / psychologists / optometrists / audiologists as Dr. [last name].

I have no idea why optometrists and audiologists are addressed as Dr when there's similar midlevel type encroachments. I refuse to address either as Dr and just go by first name basis.

 

[drducky.]

“67 percent of patients erroneously believe a podiatrist is a medical doctor.”

I’m part of that 67% then lol

 

[Lawpy]

“67 percent of patients erroneously believe a podiatrist is a medical doctor.”

I’m part of that 67% then lol

Medical doctor strictly refers to MDs and DOs. Dentists, podiatrists and veterinarians are usually addressed by their professions as such.

 

[Smash Atoms]

Heh... This randomly popped up in my email and I gotta say its.... interesting.

An opinion from an old guy who went back to school for PT and existed most of his life in the uninformed role of a patient...
In an inpatient/hospital setting, I would agree that use of the title "Doctor" should be reserved for physicians. Most of these patients cant tell a CNA from a PA from a psychologist, and a lot are overwhelmed, uncomfortable, in an unfamiliar environment, and probably on a lot of drugs. If I address myself as "Dr. name, physical therapist", they still will assume I am good to change their plan of care. That said, I think it should be perfectly acceptable to address oneself as "(Name), Doctor of (degree field)". A subtle change, but allows providers to acknowledge their level of education without specifically using a title that may be confusing.

In an outpatient setting, who cares. Seriously. If someone is referred to or volitionally chooses a specific type of care, within that clinic clinicians should choose how they wish to be addressed. Podiatrists, DNP, DC, DVM or otherwise, should use the title they want and they earned. I will always choose to be addressed by name over title but I have no beef with any provider who chooses to use their earned designation.

Again, speaking as a patient, MD doesn't really mean too much in regards to skill and outcome. I have been treated by some absolutely abysmal docs and some stellar PAs and NPs, and vice versa.... And as a patient title didn't really matter too much and I was pretty ignorant to level of training differences even between a nurse, PA, NP, and MD/DO. I just wanted someone who would listen to me and care about why I was there.

 

[slowthai]

Heh... This randomly popped up in my email and I gotta say its.... interesting.

An opinion from an old guy who went back to school for PT and existed most of his life in the uninformed role of a patient...
In an inpatient/hospital setting, I would agree that use of the title "Doctor" should be reserved for physicians. Most of these patients cant tell a CNA from a PA from a psychologist, and a lot are overwhelmed, uncomfortable, in an unfamiliar environment, and probably on a lot of drugs. If I address myself as "Dr. name, physical therapist", they still will assume I am good to change their plan of care. That said, I think it should be perfectly acceptable to address oneself as "(Name), Doctor of (degree field)". A subtle change, but allows providers to acknowledge their level of education without specifically using a title that may be confusing.

In an outpatient setting, who cares. Seriously. If someone is referred to or volitionally chooses a specific type of care, within that clinic clinicians should choose how they wish to be addressed. Podiatrists, DNP, DC, DVM or otherwise, should use the title they want and they earned. I will always choose to be addressed by name over title but I have no beef with any provider who chooses to use their earned designation.

Again, speaking as a patient, MD doesn't really mean too much in regards to skill and outcome. I have been treated by some absolutely abysmal docs and some stellar PAs and NPs, and vice versa.... And as a patient title didn't really matter too much and I was pretty ignorant to level of training differences even between a nurse, PA, NP, and MD/DO. I just wanted someone who would listen to me and care about why I was there.

That is 100%, pure, unadulterated

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I have no idea why optometrists and audiologists are addressed as Dr when there's similar midlevel type encroachments. I refuse to address either as Dr and just go by first name basis.

You don’t call an optometrist dr? What do you call them when you see one?

 

[Smash Atoms]

Sure bud. Gotta hate when those pesky "mid level providers" offer unsolicited input to your important conversation eh?

 

[Damson]

That is 100%, pure, unadulterated

View attachment 326901

I just don't think jpg roasts are conducive to discussion or changing @Smash Atoms 's mind

 

[Damson]

You don’t call an optometrist dr? What do you call them when you see one?

One of my optometrists refers to himself as optometric physician. Thoughts?

 

[slowthai]

Sure bud. Gotta hate when those pesky "mid level providers" offer unsolicited input to your important conversation eh?

Not 100% sure that this was in response to me, but I'll answer.

First paragraph: That doesn't work. As soon as the patient hears doctor, they'll immediately think physician and ignore the rest. Furthermore, why are you so pressed to call yourself "Doctor" of whatever? Just say I'm your nurse practitioner or PA or physical therapist or whatever it is. It's really not that deep.

Second paragraph: Don't call yourself doctor if you're not some kind of actual physician (podiatrists and DVMs are, DCs and DNPs 100% aren't). Doesn't matter whether it's outpatient or not. That's completely irrelevant.

Third paragraph: I don't see what the point of this is. There will always be people that are terrible at what they do, no matter how much or how little training they have.

 

[Smash Atoms]

Slow Thai - Yes, it was. Dealing with a child who isn't listening this evening and patience is thin.


So out of curiosity - you walk into a Chiro's office (or outpatient PT office) because you have some sort of pain and the provider introduces themselves as "Dr. xyz". (Edit - if you're like "nah man, I would never go see a mid level for pain" just humor me on this one)
How do you respond?

And to be clear, its your opinion, and I don't expect I can say anything that would change your perspective or beliefs on right to title, so I may as well do what I can to get inside your thoughts on it a little bit.

 

[slowthai]

Slow Thai - Yes, it was. Dealing with a child who isn't listening this evening and patience is thin.


So out of curiosity - you walk into a Chiro's office (or outpatient PT office) because you have some sort of pain and the provider introduces themselves as "Dr. xyz". (Edit - if you're like "nah man, I would never go see a mid level for pain" just humor me on this one)
How do you respond?

And to be clear, its your opinion, and I don't expect I can say anything that would change your perspective or beliefs on right to title, so I may as well do what I can to get inside your thoughts on it a little bit.

I say "Nice to meet you."

I can talk to them without calling them a doctor. Why would I? They're not a physician. Everyone knows that in a clinical context (as in, going to the doctor's office, the ED, or the hospital), doctor means physician. I mean, even when I would see actual physicians, I wouldn't have a need to address them as doctor, I would just ask them a question or make a statement or whatever.

And chiropractors and PTs aren't even midlevels. NPs and PAs are.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Slow Thai - Yes, it was. Dealing with a child who isn't listening this evening and patience is thin.


So out of curiosity - you walk into a Chiro's office (or outpatient PT office) because you have some sort of pain and the provider introduces themselves as "Dr. xyz". (Edit - if you're like "nah man, I would never go see a mid level for pain" just humor me on this one)
How do you respond?

And to be clear, its your opinion, and I don't expect I can say anything that would change your perspective or beliefs on right to title, so I may as well do what I can to get inside your thoughts on it a little bit.

Chiropractors aren’t doctors, chiropractic is snake oil, and anything they do that actually is evidenced based can be done by a PT or a DO. Very easy to never go to one.

 

[Lawpy]

You don’t call an optometrist dr? What do you call them when you see one?

I go by first name

I can't get it off my head that optometry is like the midlevel version for ophtho

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

One of my optometrists refers to himself as optometric physician. Thoughts?

An optometrist isn’t a physician. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t call them doctor. A psychologist isn’t a physician, but I’d still call them dr in their office.

 

[Lawpy]

I'm also really confused about PsyD and PhD vs MD psych differences because i always thought psychiatrists are good at both therapy and medicine

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I go by first name

I can't get it off my head that optometry is like the midlevel version for ophtho

That’s super disrespectful IMO. It’s one thing to not call an NP dr in their clinic, as their doctorates are diploma mill garbage. I know a few optometrists, and they do a professional degree like medical school.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'm also really confused about PsyD and PhD vs MD psych differences because i always thought psychiatrists are good at both therapy and medicine

Not all psychiatrists do therapy and not all places give equal training in it. Psychologists have a specific role in mental health.

 

[Lawpy]

An optometrist isn’t a physician. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t call them doctor. A psychologist isn’t a physician, but I’d still call them dr in their office.

Do you call a therapist as Dr?

 

[Lawpy]

That’s super disrespectful IMO. It’s one thing to not call an NP dr in their clinic, as their doctorates are diploma mill garbage. I know a few optometrists, and they do a professional degree like medical school.

Where do you draw a line on professional degree? Opto encroachment in ophtho gives midlevel encroachment vibes

 

[Smash Atoms]

I say "Nice to meet you."

I can talk to them without calling them a doctor. Why would I? They're not a physician. Everyone knows that in a clinical context (as in, going to the doctor's office, the ED, or the hospital), doctor means physician. I mean, even when I would see actual physicians, I wouldn't have a need to address them as doctor, I would just ask them a question or make a statement or whatever.

And chiropractors and PTs aren't even midlevels. NPs and PAs are.

lol, so I would ask what a DPT is to you? Low level provider? Personal trainer and masseuse with more debt?
And that said, I would be curious why there is what appears to be disdain for "mid" or whatever is below that level providers.

Chiropractors aren’t doctors, chiropractic is snake oil, and anything they do that actually is evidenced based can be done by a PT or a DO. Very easy to never go to one.

Fair enough, but in the sub-40 demographic they have a pretty strong presence that might not be worth ignoring and occupy a significant portion of the conservative outpatient care market space, particularly in my area. There are actually a lot of local physicians that refer out to chiros (I live in a pretty major city).

 

[Lawpy]

Not all psychiatrists do therapy and not all places give equal training in it. Psychologists have a specific role in mental health.

Can you elaborate? Are psychologists entirely therapy + cognitive science/behavioral medicine? Because there are some instances of psychologists trying to get prescribing privileges and the line gets very blurred

 

[slowthai]

lol, so I would ask what a DPT is to you? Low level provider? Personal trainer and masseuse with more debt?
And that said, I would be curious why there is what appears to be disdain for "mid" or whatever is below that level providers.

A DPT is a physical therapist. If you want to get more general, they're a healthcare worker. Personal trainer and masseuse with more debt isn't even close. They're absolutely critical for regaining musculoskeletal function.

There's massive disdain for midlevels that try to act like they're physicians by calling themselves doctors and pushing for independent practice.

 

[bGMx]

Can you elaborate? Are psychologists entirely therapy + cognitive science/behavioral medicine? Because there are some instances of psychologists trying to get prescribing privileges and the line gets very blurred

There are some more research heavy training programs which tend to be Ph.Ds-- of rigor being based off licensing + training hours, I view the trend to be Psy.D < Ph.D < M.D overall, with some Ph.D programs being hyper competitive and robust, and therefore producing professionals who are far beyond the average psychiatrist (though these people are just brilliant regardless of career aspirations). I'd say overall the difference is in how the MD versus other mental health professionals have integrated medical science into their understanding of mental health care. I also believe MDs are more into objective understanding than the other degrees and therefore more resistant to culture fads generally (which is where much of the influence and importance of the psychiatric community at large resides). This is a whole different conversation now, but societies understanding of mental health and how to handle the issues that we face today is a very large sculptor of the larger culture. Thankfully, psychiatrists are more grounded in the objective AND are treated to be major voices in the field.

Hopefully that grounding of mental health care in the objective doesn't change with the way things are looking today. The APA labeled masculinity as a toxic trait requiring therapy just last year. Certainly there must be more nuance than that.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Do you call a therapist as Dr?

In their office, yes.

Where do you draw a line on professional degree? Opto encroachment in ophtho gives midlevel encroachment vibes

I don’t think it’s the same. Optos have always been independent and while there is some overlap, I believe they mostly do things most ophthos don’t want to.

Fair enough, but in the sub-40 demographic they have a pretty strong presence that might not be worth ignoring and occupy a significant portion of the conservative outpatient care market space, particularly in my area. There are actually a lot of local physicians that refer out to chiros (I live in a pretty major city).

Yeah there are unfortunately. I think part of it is a lack of understanding of the evidence and part of it is insurance. With tricare, part of the back pain protocol is going to see a chiropractor. Even though there is no evidence.

I don’t think we should ignore chiros. I think we should educate patients.

Can you elaborate? Are psychologists entirely therapy + cognitive science/behavioral medicine? Because there are some instances of psychologists trying to get prescribing privileges and the line gets very blurred

Yeah I don’t know how I feel about this tbh. Psychologists can only prescribe in 3 states. To be a practicing clinical psychologist requires graduate education that takes on average 7 years (though research is a big component), 1,500-6,000 supervised clinical hours, and a licensing exam. In all 3 states where they can prescribe, there are extra requirements specific to do so.

Louisiana requires a clinical masters in psychopharmacology. Illinois requires didactic training and 14 months of supervised practice in a variety of settings. New Mexico requires 850 hours of training. All 3 states require a pharm licensing exam and coordination with the patient’s PCP in order to prescribe.

It’s basically nothing like midlevels.

 

[Wordead]

lol, so I would ask what a DPT is to you? Low level provider? Personal trainer and masseuse with more debt?
And that said, I would be curious why there is what appears to be disdain for "mid" or whatever is below that level providers.



Fair enough, but in the sub-40 demographic they have a pretty strong presence that might not be worth ignoring and occupy a significant portion of the conservative outpatient care market space, particularly in my area. There are actually a lot of local physicians that refer out to chiros (I live in a pretty major city).

Like a case manager but less useful at getting people out of the hospital

 

[bGMx]

Yeah I don’t know how I feel about this tbh. Psychologists can only prescribe in 3 states. To be a practicing clinical psychologist requires graduate education that takes on average 7 years (though research is a big component), 1,500-6,000 supervised clinical hours, and a licensing exam. In all 3 states where they can prescribe, there are extra requirements specific to do so.

Louisiana requires a clinical masters in psychopharmacology. Illinois requires didactic training and 14 months of supervised practice in a variety of settings. New Mexico requires 850 hours of training. All 3 states require a pharm licensing exam and coordination with the patient’s PCP in order to prescribe.

It’s basically nothing like midlevels.

I'd say its fine given an equivalent level of pharm understanding to that of a physician-- though my opposing argument is that you don't get that unless you go to medical school, and you could be prescribed these medicines by any PCP to my knowledge.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'd say its fine given an equivalent level of pharm understanding to that of a physician-- though my opposing argument is that you don't get that unless you go to medical school, and you could be prescribed these medicines by any PCP to my knowledge.

Yeah tbh I think the better answer is to train more psychiatrists.

 

[Smash Atoms]

A DPT is a physical therapist. If you want to get more general, they're a healthcare worker. Personal trainer and masseuse with more debt isn't even close. They're absolutely critical for regaining musculoskeletal function.

There's massive disdain for midlevels that try to act like they're physicians by calling themselves doctors and pushing for independent practice.

Do you have a problem with physical therapists that have direct access?

Like a case manager but less useful at getting people out of the hospital

Rad burn dude.
... to be honest that did make me chuckle a little. Not into inpatient so can't say I take any level of offense, but its pretty short sighted.

 

[slowthai]

Do you have a problem with physical therapists that have direct access?

I'll defer to a resident/attending on this one. I don't know enough about the referral process to be able to answer this confidently.

 

[Smash Atoms]

I'll defer to a resident/attending on this one. I don't know enough about the referral process to be able to answer this confidently.

Thats fair enough. Given this response I assume you are still a student, that said, are you in a program that has multiple professions? Or are you familiar with what the DPT curriculums cover?

 

[slowthai]

Thats fair enough. Given this response I assume you are still a student, that said, are you in a program that has multiple professions? Or are you familiar with what the DPT curriculums cover?

Yeah, I'm a med student. No, it's just us. And I'm not familiar.

 

[drducky.]

That said, I think it should be perfectly acceptable to address oneself as "(Name), Doctor of (degree field)". A subtle change, but allows providers to acknowledge their level of education without specifically using a title that may be confusing

I disagree with this part. The word doctor should only come up when referring to a physician in a hospital setting.

There is nothing to be gained from calling someone a doctor of physical therapy over just a physical therapist besides ego stroking

 

[RangerBob]

Yeah tbh I think the better answer is to train more psychiatrists.

In my experience (I wanted to go into psych for about three years and had pre-med exposure as well) most psychologists really don’t want to prescribe-they generally pursue their PhD or PsyD so they can do counseling, which in general they are better at than psychiatrists (though there are some old-school psychiatrists who can still do great talk therapy). Psychiatry of course, gives you the flexibility to “do everything.” Still, to my understanding, psychiatrists don’t spend anywhere near as much time learning counseling in training as a professionally licensed psychologist.

My best guess is the psychologists that want to prescribe are more likely the ones that actually wanted to be psychiatrists but couldn’t get into med school. If I were in those shoes I’d probably push to prescribe as well.

The irony is they’d be far better at it than all the NPs out there prescribing horrible mixes of antidepressants/benzos/antipsychotics for garden-variety depression/anxiety that perhaps needs one SSRI or even better—a referral to a therapist.

 

[Smash Atoms]

Gotcha. If anyone cares to read my ramblings Id be happy to talk about some of what we cover, though Ill avoid it to derail the thread. FWIW in states with direct patient access we are legally liable for missing a diagnosis and treating it as MSK pain when it should have been referred out to a physician, and we do cover quite a bit of differential diganosis. I am lucky enough to be at a major U with several health care professions and spent a couple years hanging in the library with MD, PA, NP, SLP, OT, etc.....

So another question I could pose to the folks browsing the thread -

Per my previous understanding, the country at large, and especially in rural areas, is running on somewhat of a primary care shortage. As far as I understand the doctorate designation is required for direct patient access. If DNP or a DPA (though my god the lobbies fight this) were limited to direct access as additional primary care, would this really be a bad thing if care was limited to specific prescriptive practices and diagnosis?

 

[Smash Atoms]

I disagree with this part. The word doctor should only come up when referring to a physician in a hospital setting.

There is nothing to be gained from calling someone a doctor of physical therapy over just a physical therapist besides ego stroking

I am not talking specifically about physical therapy, rather any non physician provider. And FWIW PT's more often than not are not the providers with over inflated senses of self worth. Most of us understand we are just another cog in the machine, direct patient facing or part of a multidisciplinary inpatient team.
Again, doesn't matter if its the 30 year MD vet residency director or the CNA walking in the room, chances are that patient is gonna ask the same damn questions to anyone in scrubs or a while coat.

 

[Candidate2017]

NP: I'm a nurse practitioner, I got my NP degree from Harvard NP School.
Pt: ok

MD: I'm a doctor, I got my MD degree from Harvard Med School.
Pt: ok

DO: I'm a doctor, I got my DO degree from Harvard COM.
Pt: ???
DO: [15 minute explanation of DO]
Pt: ???
DO: [15 minute explanation of DO]
Pt: I want a doctor.

Clearly this law is discriminatory.

 

[calivianya]

And they think that’s going to help patients understand anything?

I just don’t see it, tbh. One place I worked had extra pieces of plastic that draped under the badge in a dark color (navy blue, forest green, etc. with white bold letters at least an inch high that absolutely anyone (even with crappy eyes like mine) could read, which had their credentials. “RN” “NP” “MD” etc. A person with normal vision could read these suckers from 30+ feet down the hallway because the text was so large and high contrast.

This same place also had a scrub color dress code, which was posted on the wall in the patient room in the patient‘s immediate view. It was also in the patient’s admission paperwork in the same stack of papers the TV guide was in, so we know the patients looked at it because people do care about figuring out how to find their favorite TV channels. We also talked about it in the intro video that played when the patients turned the TV on!

They still had no idea who any of us were. Most patients have a preconceived notion of what a “doctor” or “nurse” or whatever looks like and we can scream until we are blue in the face and they still won’t know who we are or what we do. Ask the black female hospitalist I worked with, who had a big fat size 100 font MD on her name tag, physician-colored scrubs, and a white coat, who got asked if she was there to take the trash out multiple times in front of me. The intensivist I shadowed wearing physician-colored scrubs and a big fat MD on her badge was constantly asked if she was the nurse. One of my male nurse colleagues in nurse-colored scrubs with his big fat RN on his badge was called doctor every day. Or the CNA with high contrast size 100 “CNA” written on her badge, wearing CNA-colored scrubs, who got asked if she had come in to give the patient his/her medications. I still get called “nurse” even though I very clearly introduce myself as a med student and my badge says student doctor.

Many patients don’t actually give a crap about figuring out who we are, and there’s absolutely no way to teach people who don’t care to learn. It doesn’t matter how much legislation we pass to clarify roles if the patients think it’s too much effort to put a millisecond in to reading high contrast two to three letter combinations that are right in front of their faces.

 

[Prehealth1011]

So Dr. Karen, DNP.

Is that what their badge will say? That’s really all I care about in this argument

 

[MLNS]

One of my optometrists refers to himself as optometric physician. Thoughts?

He should go to jail for fraud?

 

[MLNS]

Pretty sure atm we're also referring to inpatient podiatrists / psychologists / optometrists / audiologists as Dr. [last name].

Lol what. I can’t tell if this hyperbole, satire, or you’ve just lived in this bizarre bubble for 22 years of life?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

And they think that’s going to help patients understand anything?

I just don’t see it, tbh. One place I worked had extra pieces of plastic that draped under the badge in a dark color (navy blue, forest green, etc. with white bold letters at least an inch high that absolutely anyone (even with crappy eyes like mine) could read, which had their credentials. “RN” “NP” “MD” etc. A person with normal vision could read these suckers from 30+ feet down the hallway because the text was so large and high contrast.

This same place also had a scrub color dress code, which was posted on the wall in the patient room in the patient‘s immediate view. It was also in the patient’s admission paperwork in the same stack of papers the TV guide was in, so we know the patients looked at it because people do care about figuring out how to find their favorite TV channels. We also talked about it in the intro video that played when the patients turned the TV on!

They still had no idea who any of us were. Most patients have a preconceived notion of what a “doctor” or “nurse” or whatever looks like and we can scream until we are blue in the face and they still won’t know who we are or what we do. Ask the black female hospitalist I worked with, who had a big fat size 100 font MD on her name tag, physician-colored scrubs, and a white coat, who got asked if she was there to take the trash out multiple times in front of me. The intensivist I shadowed wearing physician-colored scrubs and a big fat MD on her badge was constantly asked if she was the nurse. One of my male nurse colleagues in nurse-colored scrubs with his big fat RN on his badge was called doctor every day. Or the CNA with high contrast size 100 “CNA” written on her badge, wearing CNA-colored scrubs, who got asked if she had come in to give the patient his/her medications. I still get called “nurse” even though I very clearly introduce myself as a med student and my badge says student doctor... but I still have my nursing license, so I can laugh and say they’re technically not 100% wrong.

Many patients don’t actually give a crap about figuring out who we are, and there’s absolutely no way to teach people who don’t care to learn. It doesn’t matter how much legislation we pass to clarify roles if the patients think it’s too much effort to put a millisecond in to reading high contrast two to three letter combinations that are right in front of their faces.

I totally agree with all this, but one of the big reasons this is good is that it will help make it more difficult for midlevels to actively deceive patients.

 

[radsisrad]

I will say that I never expected this. I just hope that it's actually enforceable and other states follow suit as quickly as possible.

Nurse managers will need billboards for all that letter salad

 

[drducky.]

And they think that’s going to help patients understand anything?

I just don’t see it, tbh. One place I worked had extra pieces of plastic that draped under the badge in a dark color (navy blue, forest green, etc. with white bold letters at least an inch high that absolutely anyone (even with crappy eyes like mine) could read, which had their credentials. “RN” “NP” “MD” etc. A person with normal vision could read these suckers from 30+ feet down the hallway because the text was so large and high contrast.

This same place also had a scrub color dress code, which was posted on the wall in the patient room in the patient‘s immediate view. It was also in the patient’s admission paperwork in the same stack of papers the TV guide was in, so we know the patients looked at it because people do care about figuring out how to find their favorite TV channels. We also talked about it in the intro video that played when the patients turned the TV on!

They still had no idea who any of us were. Most patients have a preconceived notion of what a “doctor” or “nurse” or whatever looks like and we can scream until we are blue in the face and they still won’t know who we are or what we do. Ask the black female hospitalist I worked with, who had a big fat size 100 font MD on her name tag, physician-colored scrubs, and a white coat, who got asked if she was there to take the trash out multiple times in front of me. The intensivist I shadowed wearing physician-colored scrubs and a big fat MD on her badge was constantly asked if she was the nurse. One of my male nurse colleagues in nurse-colored scrubs with his big fat RN on his badge was called doctor every day. Or the CNA with high contrast size 100 “CNA” written on her badge, wearing CNA-colored scrubs, who got asked if she had come in to give the patient his/her medications. I still get called “nurse” even though I very clearly introduce myself as a med student and my badge says student doctor... but I still have my nursing license, so I can laugh and say they’re technically not 100% wrong.

Many patients don’t actually give a crap about figuring out who we are, and there’s absolutely no way to teach people who don’t care to learn. It doesn’t matter how much legislation we pass to clarify roles if the patients think it’s too much effort to put a millisecond in to reading high contrast two to three letter combinations that are right in front of their faces.

It’s actually a compliment to be mistaken for a nurse because people associate doctors with the image of wrinkly old guys.

 

[Lord_stark]

“67 percent of patients erroneously believe a podiatrist is a medical doctor.”

I’m part of that 67% then lol

There is probably 0% people know that podiatrist is a physician under the NJ state law as well as federal law.

"A podiatrist is a physician within the scope of this chapter, and may be referred to as a podiatric physician."

New Jersey Statutes Title 45. Professions and Occupations 45 § 5-7 | FindLaw

New Jersey Title 45. Professions and Occupations 45 Section 5-7. Read the code on FindLaw

codes.findlaw.com

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There is probably 0% people know that podiatrist is a physician under the NJ state law as well as federal law.

"A podiatrist is a physician within the scope of this chapter, and may be referred to as a podiatric physician."

New Jersey Statutes Title 45. Professions and Occupations 45 § 5-7 | FindLaw

New Jersey Title 45. Professions and Occupations 45 Section 5-7. Read the code on FindLaw

codes.findlaw.com

I knew that, but I’m also from NJ.

 

[notretired]

And they think that’s going to help patients understand anything?

I just don’t see it, tbh. One place I worked had extra pieces of plastic that draped under the badge in a dark color (navy blue, forest green, etc. with white bold letters at least an inch high that absolutely anyone (even with crappy eyes like mine) could read, which had their credentials. “RN” “NP” “MD” etc. A person with normal vision could read these suckers from 30+ feet down the hallway because the text was so large and high contrast.

This same place also had a scrub color dress code, which was posted on the wall in the patient room in the patient‘s immediate view. It was also in the patient’s admission paperwork in the same stack of papers the TV guide was in, so we know the patients looked at it because people do care about figuring out how to find their favorite TV channels. We also talked about it in the intro video that played when the patients turned the TV on!

They still had no idea who any of us were. Most patients have a preconceived notion of what a “doctor” or “nurse” or whatever looks like and we can scream until we are blue in the face and they still won’t know who we are or what we do. Ask the black female hospitalist I worked with, who had a big fat size 100 font MD on her name tag, physician-colored scrubs, and a white coat, who got asked if she was there to take the trash out multiple times in front of me. The intensivist I shadowed wearing physician-colored scrubs and a big fat MD on her badge was constantly asked if she was the nurse. One of my male nurse colleagues in nurse-colored scrubs with his big fat RN on his badge was called doctor every day. Or the CNA with high contrast size 100 “CNA” written on her badge, wearing CNA-colored scrubs, who got asked if she had come in to give the patient his/her medications. I still get called “nurse” even though I very clearly introduce myself as a med student and my badge says student doctor... but I still have my nursing license, so I can laugh and say they’re technically not 100% wrong.

Many patients don’t actually give a crap about figuring out who we are, and there’s absolutely no way to teach people who don’t care to learn. It doesn’t matter how much legislation we pass to clarify roles if the patients think it’s too much effort to put a millisecond in to reading high contrast two to three letter combinations that are right in front of their faces.

Have you ever watched old episodes of ER and had difficulty finding who the doctor was? I haven't. Back when the only people in the hospital allowed to wear long white coats were Dr's it was pretty easy to figure out; whether they were black, brown, blue, green, male, or female