New Poll: Change D.O. to M.D.O. ? - Yes or No -

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

With the explosion of psychology prescribing, I would not be shocked if psychiatry merges with psychology and be similar to having dental or podiatry schools.

Psych prescriptions aren't really exploding and few are actually getting the masters in pharmacology. Clinical psychologists for the most part aren't very well versed in even basic neuro & biology and really aren't interested in the biological aspects of behavior & treatment. As a whole they are largely ineligible for prescription power nor do they need it outside of a few states where there aren't enough professionals to help.

In the end I think that psychiatry will remain separate in safe because of the necessity for clinical neuro training. Psychiatrists not only need to manage severe disorders, they need to be able to identify whether a disorder is somatic, neurological, or psychological. Ex. If a person has a UTI and comes in and is irritable it doesn't mean they're presenting with a psychiatric disorder and need an anti-psychiatric med, they need an anti-biotic, likewise someone who is getting depressed and tired may have low thyroid output. A psychologist simply isn't trained enough in that.

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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

It would require
1) The schools to all legally relicense as MD granting institutions (not clear who they must relicense through but....)
2) COCA to accept that new relicensing (even if the licencing is not actually submitted through them) as they are the accrediting body. And...
3) The MD world at large to accept MD degrees from previously DO granting institutions is the same*

* this would, ironically, probably the the easiest one to acheive. The idea of integration is *more popular* among MD students, residents, and program directors than it is among their DO cohorts from everything I've seen. The only person who might be pissed about this is the AAMC who, unless they absorb AACOM at some point, would not have control over the DO schools despite granting their MD degree.

How does one go about requesting for ex. the LCME to start considering dual accreditation options?

 

[DocEspana]

How does one go about requesting for ex. the LCME to start considering dual accreditation options?

I doubt the LCME has any interest in doing that. The AAMC is too big if a stakeholder in them, it would be a conflict of interest to accredit them when the AAMC cannot have any influence or income from them.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

The changes you are talking about haven't only happened in the last 4 years. Everything you mentioned has been happening or in the works for at least a decade if not longer. Like I mentioned before, I could care less whether people want to change the degree or not, but this issue hasn't cahnged in the last 4 years, nor has it really changed in the last 10-15 years.

That doesn't change anything. Yes, they have all been in the works for a while and these movements have made small strides, but they haven't been as prevalent as they are today. I think it's a fair prediction that they aren't as prevalent today as they will be in 10 years.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

If all the other clinical providers who have doctorates are calling themselves doctor as you say is happening, then what is even a unified degree going to do? It is just another set of letters for patients to become confused about if the degree changed. If the letters are anything other than MD, you will still be explaining the letters of your new degree to patients, and everybody would still be calling themselves "doctor". In other words, a new degree accomplished nothing.

In the short-term, true. But in the long-term, if all physicians went by one set of letters, it would alleviate a lot of confusion.

Perhaps some of them do assume that we are MDs. That means they are assuming we are physicians, and they would be correct in that assumption. Some are aware of the DO initals, and they know that we are not the osteopaths of their country. Patients just want to see a physician (or PA/NP if that is there preference) and most are clueless to the degree. They just want help getting better or staying healthy.

No one is arguing otherwise. The point is that outside of a hospital setting, many don't know that we ARE medical doctors.

My argument is not flawed, and I was never advocating that there is any reason for a degree change. I was simply responding to the fact that you stated it was hard to explain the DO degree to foreign patients where the DO degree means something different. To your statement, I asked how many patients, both foreign and American, are you actually explaining the DO degree too? If you were honest with yourself, the number of patients is probably very small.

I maintain your argument is flawed. You have no idea how many Americans and foreigners see the family med guy down the street with a sign outside his place that says DO and pass him over for the guy several blocks down whose sign says MD. They know what an MD is. They don't know what a DO is. They don't bother to ask. It's not like these people drive up to the front door and ask the receptionist "hey, just so I know, what is a DO?" No, they just know that they're looking for a physician and in their haste, they don't realize a DO is a physician.

Are you seriously going to use this article as evidence for your argument?

Until the NIH does a study on the number of NPs introducing themselves as doctor, yes, I will go by real-person accounts in the New York Times and comparable reputable newspapers. I have seen it with my own eyes. Unfortunately, I can't show it to you that way, so I tried showing it to you as the basis of a news article. You chose to scoff at it. That's fine. But don't turn around and say we're making this stuff up or sensationalizing it just because YOU haven't seen it. That's the height of arrogance.

Next, the article gives ONE example of nurse presenting herself as doctor, and then assumes every DNP is doing the same thing. If that is not sensationalism, then I don't know what is

Nice misrepresentation there. Speaking of sensationalism...

No one ever said that every DNP is doing the same thing. Not a single person said that, not even the reporter who wrote the article. Don't take your assumptions and pass them off as facts.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

With the explosion of psychology prescribing, I would not be shocked if psychiatry merges with psychology and be similar to having dental or podiatry schools.

That will never happen. Psychiatrists need four years of medical school to prescribe the medications they use, which is why psychologists are completely out of their depth doing it.

 

[dyspareunia]

That will never happen. Psychiatrists need four years of medical school to prescribe the medications they use, which is why psychologists are completely out of their depth doing it.

Right, because psychology merging with psychiatry is more unbelievable than NPs/PAs having autonomy near the level of FM.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Right, because psychology merging with psychiatry is more unbelievable than NPs/PAs having autonomy near the level of FM.

Clinical Psych programs are research programs first and foremost. Many of them do not want to practice in clinical settings but instead do research on clinical topics. Integrating medical specialty training into there would be largely impossible and harm the production of both therapists and researchers.

 

[Dharma]

@RonArtest go Metta yourself!

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

Right, because psychology merging with psychiatry is more unbelievable than NPs/PAs having autonomy near the level of FM.

Apples and oranges. In the case of NPs and PAs, their lobby is working hard to expand their rights and there's nothing FM can do about it. If the NP or PA lobby suggested merging with the board that governs FM, that would never happen. Similarly, the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology will NEVER agree to a merge with psychologists.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

That will never happen. Psychiatrists need four years of medical school to prescribe the medications they use, which is why psychologists are completely out of their depth doing it.

They are already prescribing in New Mexico. NPs can prescribe with 2 years training. Make "Psychiatry School" 4 years + internship and you can very well kiss traditional psychiatry goodbye.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Clinical Psych programs are research programs first and foremost. Many of them do not want to practice in clinical settings but instead do research on clinical topics. Integrating medical specialty training into there would be largely impossible and harm the production of both therapists and researchers.

That's not the case for a Psy.D degree. There's always a way to make researchers and clinicians.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That's not the case for a Psy.D degree. There's always a way to make researchers and clinicians.

The Psy.D degree is kinda the DO degree of the psych world, except much much worse. I mean essentially some of them are lower regarded than what we do with RVU & LUCOM. And even then they do have a dissertation and etc.

Honestly, the way it is now works better than otherwise. I'm pretty happy to have the chance to learn the other body systems and other medical skills prior to potentially going into psychiatry. And I'm pretty sure that psychologists are happy not to have to focus on them.

 

[Elisabeth Kate]

They are already prescribing in New Mexico. NPs can prescribe with 2 years training. Make "Psychiatry School" 4 years + internship and you can very well kiss traditional psychiatry goodbye.

You missed my point. I'm saying that the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology will never do that. Unless people plan to take over the board and dismantle it, it's not going to happen. A psychiatrist will always be a medical school graduate.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

This thread has evolved from one dead horse beating to completely different (but still very dead) horse beating. This is like the inception of *******es and stupid topics

 

[sleepdoc17]

Well folks, I think that the results of this poll are in line with results of other older polls with different questions. About 40% of respondents prefer a degree change. The remainder prefer D.O. degree to remain constant.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

.

 

[Osteotastic]

The ones willing to change are the ones willing to be honest with themselves and on average, the ones beyond the first two years of medical school. The further out from the first two years of brain washing one gets the more likely they are receptive to change and progress. That was my pattern too.

There is a lot of misplaced pride that shoot DOs in the feet. They've been doing it to themselves for well over century now. I just thank God we are slowly moving in the right direction despite the delusional crowd that holds to the fantasy of "the DO difference".

This forms as a sort of ego defense mechanism to convince oneself on a personal level that they are "special" and different and it becomes dysfunctional and ultimately inhibiting as it has to our profession.

 

[GUH]

The ones willing to change are the ones willing to be honest with themselves and on average, the ones beyond the first two years of medical school. The further out from the first two years of brain washing one gets the more likely they are receptive to change and progress. That was my pattern too.

There is a lot of misplaced pride that shoot DOs in the feet. They've been doing it to themselves for well over century now. I just thank God we are slowly moving in the right direction despite the delusional crowd that holds to the fantasy of "the DO difference".

This forms as a sort of ego defense mechanism to convince oneself on a personal level that they are "special" and different and it becomes dysfunctional and ultimately inhibiting as it has to our profession.

A lot of generalities with no substance

 

[group_theory]

Folks - please try to stay on topic.

Also a reminder that this is a professional forum ... and as long as members are respectful and actively contributing to the discussion and not violating SDN Terms of Service (TOS), members are encourage to express their viewpoints and share their expertise.

I know that it can be difficult, especially on an anonymous internet forum, but please try to be respectful to each other.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/derailing-threads-and-unproductive-posts.988630/

 

[Dharma]

Folks - please try to stay on topic.

Also a reminder that this is a professional forum ... and as long as members are respectful and actively contributing to the discussion and not violating SDN Terms of Service (TOS), members are encourage to express their viewpoints and share their expertise.

I know that it can be difficult, especially on an anonymous internet forum, but please try to be respectful to each other.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/derailing-threads-and-unproductive-posts.988630/

Please just shut this thread down! It's worse than the other one you closed.

 

[DocEspana]

The ones willing to change are the ones willing to be honest with themselves and on average, the ones beyond the first two years of medical school. The further out from the first two years of brain washing one gets the more likely they are receptive to change and progress. That was my pattern too.

There is a lot of misplaced pride that shoot DOs in the feet. They've been doing it to themselves for well over century now. I just thank God we are slowly moving in the right direction despite the delusional crowd that holds to the fantasy of "the DO difference".

This forms as a sort of ego defense mechanism to convince oneself on a personal level that they are "special" and different and it becomes dysfunctional and ultimately inhibiting as it has to our profession.

I argue its the opposite. It is the ones who are in their 3rd or4th year or residency who really don't want to change the degree. You're a resident as well, so I can't pull rank or tell you "it will be different when you get to this point" but I am shocked you havent seen what I have. Outside of ophtho residents (who hate being confused for ODs), all the residents (nearly without exception) I meet are very much "over" this whole degree change thing and just feel a degree change will set everyone back and look silly in the eyes of a public that is mostly aware of DOs. Its only the pre-clinical students (and newly accepted ones) who seem to be all about "DO parity with MDs means we should just change our degree to resemble theirs more!". I find it childish and likely to set us back and be horrible PR if we do that. I think most residents and clinical year students agree.

But it does seem you've had a different exposure on the matter.

 

[sleepdoc17]

The ones willing to change are the ones willing to be honest with themselves and on average, the ones beyond the first two years of medical school. The further out from the first two years of brain washing one gets the more likely they are receptive to change and progress. That was my pattern too.

There is a lot of misplaced pride that shoot DOs in the feet. They've been doing it to themselves for well over century now. I just thank God we are slowly moving in the right direction despite the delusional crowd that holds to the fantasy of "the DO difference".

This forms as a sort of ego defense mechanism to convince oneself on a personal level that they are "special" and different and it becomes dysfunctional and ultimately inhibiting as it has to our profession.

I think that Osteotastic brings up some good and common perspective. It is my opinion that there is a bit of a disconnect between the will of the practicing D.O.'s and the Plan by the Administration.

 

[thepoopologist]

The ones willing to change are the ones willing to be honest with themselves and on average, the ones beyond the first two years of medical school. The further out from the first two years of brain washing one gets the more likely they are receptive to change and progress. That was my pattern too.

There is a lot of misplaced pride that shoot DOs in the feet. They've been doing it to themselves for well over century now. I just thank God we are slowly moving in the right direction despite the delusional crowd that holds to the fantasy of "the DO difference".

This forms as a sort of ego defense mechanism to convince oneself on a personal level that they are "special" and different and it becomes dysfunctional and ultimately inhibiting as it has to our profession.

You are the greatest troll I have ever seen

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You are the greatest troll I have ever seen

So any reason you say this other than general disagreement?

 

[thepoopologist]

So any reason you say this other than general disagreement?

Every time I read his posts, I wonder if he matched into the most unwelcoming program ever, is not a DO and does this for his amusement, or is a DO and is at baseline an insecure person. I'm in a dual accredited program where 90% of the attendings are MDs in my hospital, maybe more. Everything he talks about hasn't been an issue where I am. I'm still not particularly happy with where I went to school and didn't recommend DO schools to any of my relatives applying to med school but to think I could change much with a name change is stupid. I have the same thoughts about people who get plastic surgery; you are who you are and while there's always room for improvement, there's no point in lying to yourself about it.

 

[thepoopologist]

My opinion does not extend to boob jobs though. Boob jobs are cool

 

[bionerd89]

Every time I read his posts, I wonder if he matched into the most unwelcoming program ever, is not a DO and does this for his amusement, or is a DO and is at baseline an insecure person. I'm in a dual accredited program where 90% of the attendings are MDs in my hospital, maybe more. Everything he talks about hasn't been an issue where I am. I'm still not particularly happy with where I went to school and didn't recommend DO schools to any of my relatives applying to med school but to think I could change much with a name change is stupid. I have the same thoughts about people who get plastic surgery; you are who you are and while there's always room for improvement, there's no point in lying to yourself about it.

Hi, do you mind sharing why you weren't happy at the school you attended? Thanks

 

[DocEspana]

My opinion does not extend to boob jobs though. Boob jobs are cool

DocEspana likes this

 

[thepoopologist]

Hi, do you mind sharing why you weren't happy at the school you attended? Thanks

The clinical rotations were run like a Chinese fire drill.

 

[DocEspana]

The clinical rotations were run like a Chinese fire drill.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The clinical rotations were run like a Chinese fire drill.

go on...

 

[GUH]

I think that Osteotastic brings up some good and common perspective. It is my opinion that there is a bit of a disconnect between the will of the practicing D.O.'s and the Plan by the Administration.

Osteotastic's position is that we should obliterate the DO profession. Maybe it's a common opinion but it's far from a good one.

 

[Jwalker]

The Psy.D degree is kinda the DO degree of the psych world, except much much worse. I mean essentially some of them are lower regarded than what we do with RVU & LUCOM.

Just in case any pre-meds are reading this. No one in the real world talks down about other schools. That's just nonsense.

 

[Mehd School]

The Psy.D degree is kinda the DO degree of the psych world, except much much worse. .

Dude, what? The duties of a psychiatrist and psychologist are so intrinsically different that anyone slightly familiar with the fields would never confuse the two. They're very separate, and not even close to being equal.

 

[NurWollen]

Dude, what? The duties of a psychiatrist and psychologist are so intrinsically different that anyone slightly familiar with the fields would never confuse the two. They're very separate, and not even close to being equal.

He was comparing psychologists with a PhD in psychology vs a Psy.D. He wasn't comparing psychiatrists to psychologists.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Just in case any pre-meds are reading this. No one in the real world talks down about other schools. That's just nonsense.

Not actually sure what your point has to do with my retort to another person.

 

[CaptainDO]

Just in case any pre-meds are reading this. No one in the real world talks down about other schools. That's just nonsense.

This is so true. Well said!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Dude, what? The duties of a psychiatrist and psychologist are so intrinsically different that anyone slightly familiar with the fields would never confuse the two. They're very separate, and not even close to being equal.

I was comparing Psy.D to PhD and relating it to DO to MD. Personally I feel the relationship is at times laughably similar. That being said I did however say that Psy.D schools in the relationships were far far worse than PhDs as opposed to 'just about equal but feeling special' with DO to MD.

 

[CaptainDO]

The parallels between the degrees are palpable.

How so? One is medical school and one is not... Do you even know the difference between a DO and MD? Find a DO that isn't in any specialty that and MD is in. I've worked with both MD and DO on a professional level... They truly are indistinguishable in practice. I would love to know your "experience" with either. Yes, there are some questionable DO's... but there are some questionable MD's as well. The DO's I've worked with were very much equal to MD's and some were WAY BETTER!

 

[CaptainDO]

I was comparing Psy.D to PhD and relating it to DO to MD. Personally I feel the relationship is at times laughably similar. That being said I did however say that Psy.D schools in the relationships were far far worse than PhDs as opposed to 'just about equal but feeling special' with DO to MD.

I see now... yes they are both medical degrees... just different ways to get there. Same positions different titles.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

How so? One is medical school and one is not... Do you even know the difference between a DO and MD? Find a DO that isn't in any specialty that and MD is in. I've worked with both MD and DO on a professional level... They truly are indistinguishable in practice. I would love to know your "experience" with either. Yes, there are some questionable DO's... but there are some questionable MD's as well. The DO's I've worked with were very much equal to MD's and some were WAY BETTER!

My comment was comparing the similarities in relationship between the degrees, not the degrees themselves.

 

[CaptainDO]

My comment was comparing the similarities in relationship between the degrees, not the degrees themselves.

Yeah, I understand now. Sorry for jumping the gun on that one... my bad. There is usually a lot of bashing that goes on on the forums and it felt like it was heading in that direction... I apologize.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yeah, I understand now. Sorry for jumping the gun on that one... my bad

It's cool.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Osteotastic's position is that we should obliterate the DO profession. Maybe it's a common opinion but it's far from a good one.

And what would happen if tomorrow osteopathic medicine were to disappear from the world? What exactly would the effects be?

But I think the reality would be more like what would happen if all the DO schools were MD schools? And what if they respected their roots of osteopathic medicine and proceeded to simply award a degree that communicated that they were medical doctors and not bone medics?

 

[CaptainDO]

And what would happen if tomorrow osteopathic medicine were to disappear from the world? What exactly would the effects be?

But I think the reality would be more like what would happen if all the DO schools were MD schools? And what if they respected their roots of osteopathic medicine and proceeded to simply award a degree that communicated that they were medical doctors and not bone medics?

Good point... I'm not sure. Medicine is a funny world, often with confusing titles...
Does this mean that eventually the Doctors of Nursing will eventually get clumped in there? Completely different degrees... but they practice with upper level skills that an attending would. The nurse anesthetists at the medical center I am at are being pushed that way and they will be telling patients that they are Dr. _______ (insert name here).
I know that interrupts from the real conversation... So, how do you think the MD schools will look at this? Do you think that this would be accepted? Would OMM disappear or would this become a specialty in sports medicine residency/fellowship? Personally, I plan to practice more like an MD than how a traditional DO would. All of the DO's I know practice like an MD and use evidence based medicine, clinical statistics, and do ACGME approved residencies and fellowships. I've never seen any of them do OMM.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think sooner or later OMM will be pushed more and more out especially as medicine progresses and new competencies become necessary for job and function. In the end my personal belief is that it could exist as a residency, but even now teaching a skill that only 5% of your class uses is a dangerously poor use of time.

 

[Jwalker]

OMM is not going anywhere.

And what would happen if tomorrow osteopathic medicine were to disappear from the world? What exactly would the effects be?

But I think the reality would be more like what would happen if all the DO schools were MD schools? And what if they respected their roots of osteopathic medicine and proceeded to simply award a degree that communicated that they were medical doctors and not bone medics?

I sincerely hope this is sarcasm. Otherwise I feel sorry that the school you attend failed you so hard.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

OMM is not going anywhere.

I sincerely hope this is sarcasm. Otherwise I feel sorry that the school you attend failed you so hard.

How about you put in the effort to explain yourself and stop with the mini-sentences.

 

[CaptainDO]

I think OMM has it's place. I don't think it belongs, for example in: im, ent, hem, peds, neph, cards, rad, psyc, optho, derm, anes, onc, gyn, vascular, gi, pulm, crit care, etc... you get my drift. I do think it would be very useful for PCP, Rehab and sport med, ortho/some surg, ED, MSK, Pain med, Trauma, neurosurg (spine), some plastics (hands, face, anything reconstructive)... places where that kind of therapy and MSK knowledge could be beneficial and the pt population allows for it... more hands on physical medicine.