New Poll: Change D.O. to M.D.O. ? - Yes or No -

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Poll: Should the D.O. degree be changed to M.D.O. degree?

  • Change the D.O. degree to M.D.O. degree

    Votes: 114 51.1%
  • Do not change the D.O. degree

    Votes: 109 48.9%

  • Total voters
    223
  • Poll closed .
And then the states would tell those agencies to shove it, because there are a lot of things more important than putting an M in the initials of some DOs who are sad that sometimes patients dont know what a DO is


Well gosh, that's not very nice. I had no idea that was how states worked. They tell lawyers to shove it? Oh boy.

There is no reason for that. It would be as simple as them putting the paperwork through the system. The state has no reason to reject the paper work or to telling them to shove it somewhere.

An analogy would be like saying that someone applied for a business license and the state told them to "shove it" because they had better things to do than process your business license.


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Well gosh, that's not very nice. I had no idea that was how states worked. They tell lawyers to shove it? Oh boy.

There is no reason for that. It would be as simple as them putting the paperwork through the system. The state has no reason to reject the paper work or to telling them to shove it somewhere.

An analogy would be like saying that someone applied for a business license and the state told them to "shove it" because they had better things to do than process your business license.

I cant tell if this is sarcastic or not. But there is no "system" or "paperwork"... there is a variation of a law in every state that says only DOs and MDs can practice medicine independently.

You cant "put the paperwork through the system" to change a law. It takes quite a lot of effort, time, and money... and there needs to be a very good reason to get it done.

A much better analogy would be for EMTs to petition to be legally called EMPs for whatever reason. It wouldn't ever happen, because literally nobody cares about their initials other than themselves.
 
I cant tell if this is sarcastic or not. But there is no "system" or "paperwork"... there is a variation of a law in every state that says only DOs and MDs can practice medicine independently.

You cant "put the paperwork through the system" to change a law. It takes quite a lot of effort, time, and money... and there needs to be a very good reason to get it done.

A much better analogy would be for EMTs to petition to be legally called EMPs for whatever reason. It wouldn't ever happen, because literally nobody cares about their initials other than themselves.

Well Chris, I think we have differing takes on what the process entails.
If your assertions are correct then it would have taken an act of God for dentists to practice under the designation DMD.

Also this would not be changing the law as it is not adding a group that can practice independently it is just allowing one of these existing groups to practice under a variant degree designation.


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Poll is now closed after 1 month and 223 respondents:

Majority of those polled chose for degree to be changed from D.O. to M.D.O.

51.1% vs 48.9%

M.D.O. is preferred.

Margin of error?
 
Well Chris, I think we have differing takes on what the process entails.
If your assertions are correct then it would have taken an act of God for dentists to practice under the designation DMD.

Also this would not be changing the law as it is not adding a group that can practice independently it is just allowing one of these existing groups to practice under a variant degree designation.


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Both DMD and DDS were degrees that were offered since the year 1900, before licensing boards for dentistry existed in most states. They too, can not add a new degree designation today without changing the law.... And allowing a group to practice under a new degree designation would in fact require a change in legislature. Clearly your mind is made up on this, and I am not trying to start an argument here, just trying to point out that it would be a process to incorporate a new degree
 
Both DMD and DDS were degrees that were offered since the year 1900, before licensing boards for dentistry existed in most states. They too, can not add a new degree designation today without changing the law.... And allowing a group to practice under a new degree designation would in fact require a change in legislature. Clearly your mind is made up on this, and I am not trying to start an argument here, just trying to point out that it would be a process to incorporate a new degree


Regardless of our debate, there is a substantial desire here for designation change as evidenced by the poll. If the desire is followed through on by the AOA, I have no doubt that the small amendment to state law can be made and highly doubt that this requires any kind of prohibitive legal process insurmountable by lawyers on AOA payroll.

That said, if you have any hard evidence or intricate actual legal knowledge of what this entails, I welcome it. After all, this is the very sort of discourse that can be most fruitful.


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Regardless of our debate, there is clearly a substantial desire here for designation change as evidenced by the poll. If the desire is followed through on by the AOA, I have no doubt that the small amendment to state law can be made and highly doubt that this requires any kind of prohibitive legal process insurmountable by lawyers on AOA payroll.

That said, if you have any hard evidence or intricate actual legal knowledge of what this entails, I welcome it. After all, this is the very sort of discourse that can be most fruitful.


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Is MDO requests being sent to AOA or something?
 
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Regardless of our debate, there is clearly a substantial desire here for designation change as evidenced by the poll. If the desire is followed through on by the AOA, I have no doubt that the small amendment to state law can be made and highly doubt that this requires any kind of prohibitive legal process insurmountable by lawyers on AOA payroll.

That said, if you have any hard evidence or intricate actual legal knowledge of what this entails, I welcome it. After all, this is the very sort of discourse that can be most fruitful.


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Hard evidence: slavery wasn't abolished in Mississippi until february of 2013 because it cost them more time and money to ratify the amendment than it was worth.

This is diplomacy in the US. Nothing is as easy as it should be
 
Hard evidence: slavery wasn't abolished in Mississippi until february of 2013 because it cost them more time and money to ratify the amendment than it was worth.

This is diplomacy in the US. Nothing is as easy as it should be
Wrong; slavery was abolished in 1865 via the 13th Amendment and thus became the law of the land in all states. A constitutional amendment does not require unanimous ratification by all states.
 
Wrong; slavery was abolished in 1865 via the 13th Amendment and thus became the law of the land in all states. A constitutional amendment does not require unanimous ratification by all states.

Yes, but nominally most if not all states ratified their own constitutions to reflect this social and constitutional change. Mississippi did not because it is such a poor state that ratifying it's own constitution would cost them money.

Or why being a Federal Republic means having parts of the country being third world nations.
 
Wrong; slavery was abolished in 1865 via the 13th Amendment and thus became the law of the land in all states. A constitutional amendment does not require unanimous ratification by all states.


This is true^. What I was trying to say is this--states do not just amend their legislature simply because it makes people feel better, and even when they do it can take them a very very long time to do it. It took Mississippi almost 150 years to take on a constitutional amendment-- something way more important than adding an M to some initials.


Anyway this has gotten way off topic so I'm sorry and I'm done
 
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I guess in the end the issue is really a non-issue. I think they still need to prevent non MD or DOs from calling them selves physicians or any variation like that..
 
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That's partially due to the fact that the DDS/DMD difference is completely intangible...and the only difference you could ever possible find would be a rewording of a school's mission statement

Aren't MBBS graduates known as MDs here in the U.S.?
 
I guess in the end the issue is really a non-issue. I think they still need to prevent non MD or DOs from calling them selves physicians or any variation like that..

I'm pretty sure Podiatrists are physicians and maybe optometrists were recently ruled physicians as well.
 
I'm pretty sure Podiatrists are physicians and maybe optometrists were recently ruled physicians as well.

Interestingly, at my school we take all of our core basic science courses with the pod students. Only our peripheral, 'fluff' classes our different. They pods are currently blowing the DO's away when it comes to averages on the exams, or so I've heard.
 
Interestingly, at my school we take all of our core basic science courses with the pod students. Only our peripheral, 'fluff' classes our different. They pods are currently blowing the DO's away when it comes to averages on the exams, or so I've heard.

There are geniuses and smart people in every field/branch of medicine. Only on SDN are some fields are deemed inferior. The real world is much different :)
 
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Well Chris, I think we have differing takes on what the process entails.
If your assertions are correct then it would have taken an act of God for dentists to practice under the designation DMD.

Also this would not be changing the law as it is not adding a group that can practice independently it is just allowing one of these existing groups to practice under a variant degree designation.


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This shows a lack of understanding about where DMD came from. It started because Harvard offered all degrees in latin so they decided to make their dentistry degree DMD instead of DDS (Doctor of Dentistry and Surgery). This happened in the 1860s, prior to most real regulation.

The idea that changing the DO degree in the eyes of state governments would be "easy" or just a matter of sending in applications to the state is just inaccurate. In order to do something like that, there would have to be a widespread push made by all major DO organizations (which would never happen), and even then, there would have to be a good reason for the change (which there isn't). It would probably be easier to change the degree to MD, something, but again wouldn't happen any time soon, and doesn't really need to happen. What needs to happen is more education about the DO degree.
 
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This shows a lack of understanding about where DMD came from. It started because Harvard offered all degrees in latin so they decided to make their dentistry degree DMD instead of DDS (Doctor of Dentistry and Surgery). This happened in the 1860s, prior to most real regulation.

The idea that changing the DO degree in the eyes of state governments would be "easy" or just a matter of sending in applications to the state is just inaccurate. In order to do something like that, there would have to be a widespread push made by all major DO organizations (which would never happen), and even then, there would have to be a good reason for the change (which there isn't). It would probably be easier to change the degree to MD, something, but again wouldn't happen any time soon, and doesn't really need to happen. What needs to happen is more education about the DO degree.

Again, as medical professionals, we fall short in one key area: PR.
 
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Again, as medical professionals, we fall short in one key area: PR.

More like we're bad at defending our economic interests. Why do nurses get such power to lobby? Why do alternative medicine professions have so much power? Why do physicians constantly get shafted?
 
Every once and a while I check in on this thread simply because it's entertaining to see how off topic people get and how strongly pre-meds feel about topics they literally know nothing about, except for what they read on SDN and hear through a friend who knows a has a goldfish who used to be owned by a nurse who knows a doctor, who might be a DO.
 
The idea that changing the DO degree in the eyes of state governments would be "easy" or just a matter of sending in applications to the state is just inaccurate. In order to do something like that, there would have to be a widespread push made by all major DO organizations (which would never happen), and even then, there would have to be a good reason for the change (which there isn't).

It is amusing to me when perceived lack of understanding is criticized and yet no real understanding is offered up in return.

All that is stated in your retort is that there would "have to be a widespread push made by all major DO organizations". Sounds like an intricate understanding of the process ; ).

It is of course always much easier to criticize than to display factual knowledge of a process.

Perhaps it is an inherent flaw of people who are now or are becoming doctors that they think they need to understand and be experts on all professions. The truth is that none of us here are experts in all areas. There is a reason for that. We are spending our time becoming experts in one area, medicine.

Criticizing yet displaying no factual legal knowledge of the process of such change is not only of no real value, it is irrelevant to the intent of this thread. The thread was meant to assess the level of desire for said change; which it did and which came out in favor of change.


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Aren't MBBS graduates known as MDs here in the U.S.?

excerpt from : http://www.ama-assn.org//ama/pub/ab...questions/faqs-about-practicing-medicine.page


"Before using MD after your name, check with your state licensing board. Many states permit a physician who is licensed to practice medicine in a state to use "MD", even if they earned an MBBS, MB ChB or other equivalent medical degree from an international medical school. Some states, however, require licensed physicians who earned a degree other than an MD to submit a second, separate application requesting permission to use "MD". If you need to use ‘MD’ in more than one state, check with each state’s medical board since policies between state boards can differ.
A recent case in Kansas illustrates the laws concerning use of MD. An oral surgeon who received a doctor of medicine (MD) degree from a medical school outside the U.S. had used the MD initials after his name in his professional practice. The Kansas Court of Appeals and the Kansas State Board of Healing Arts ruled that he could not use the MD initials in his practice because although he was licensed as an oral surgeon, he was not licensed to practice medicine.
To learn what types of medical degrees are offered in various countries, you can search the International Medical Education Directory (IMED). IMED lists and provides information on thousands of medical schools around the world and includes the title of the medical degree awarded in different countries. IMED is maintained by the Foundation for Advancement of Medical Education and Research (FAIMER) "


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So why is DO excluded from this? If these rules applied to DOs, it would get rid of all these degree change nonsense threads every few months.

I think the wording should be refined because Podiatrists are considered physicians too and they can't use MD so it can get tricky with the vague wording of that rule.
 
More like we're bad at defending our economic interests. Why do nurses get such power to lobby? Why do alternative medicine professions have so much power? Why do physicians constantly get shafted?
It's called unions.
 
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So why is DO excluded from this? If these rules applied to DOs, it would get rid of all these degree change nonsense threads every few months.

This is a good question. After residency is made uniform I think it would be difficult for a state to deny a DO this ability if it is allowed to a foreign trained with ACGME residency.


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the MDO letters sound cheap and fake. lets not change it . DO is just fine for me...I'm going to be a doctor..i'll let all you betas worry about the lettering.
srs.

not semi srs
srs


(seriously though, it's not a big deal :D )
 
It is amusing to me when perceived lack of understanding is criticized and yet no real understanding is offered up in return.

All that is stated in your retort is that there would "have to be a widespread push made by all major DO organizations". Sounds like an intricate understanding of the process ; ).

It is of course always much easier to criticize than to display factual knowledge of a process.

Perhaps it is an inherent flaw of people who are now or are becoming doctors that they think they need to understand and be experts on all professions. The truth is that none of us here are experts in all areas. There is a reason for that. We are spending our time becoming experts in one area, medicine.

Criticizing yet displaying no factual legal knowledge of the process of such change is not only of no real value, it is irrelevant to the intent of this thread. The thread was meant to assess the level of desire for said change; which it did and which came out in favor of change.


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Its funny that you criticize me for acting as though I know it all, when all I said was that your erroneous comparison of DMD/DDS to the DO/MD issue is flawed. Which it is.

Now as far as giving factual information, neither you or I have given factual procedural information about the change. The difference is, I didn't claim to know that all it would take is sending in an application to the state. I explained that it is more complex than you're making it, i.e. something that would take a huge movement, one that quite frankly there isn't much support for.

Its funny, maybe its something about current doctors that makes them shortsighted or makes them unable to understand the complexity of an issue (see what I did there?).
 
Its funny that you criticize me for acting as though I know it all, when all I said was that your erroneous comparison of DMD/DDS to the DO/MD issue is flawed. Which it is.

Now as far as giving factual information, neither you or I have given factual procedural information about the change. The difference is, I didn't claim to know that all it would take is sending in an application to the state. I explained that it is more complex than you're making it, i.e. something that would take a huge movement, one that quite frankly there isn't much support for.

Its funny, maybe its something about current doctors that makes them shortsighted or makes them unable to understand the complexity of an issue (see what I did there?).

Oh hallow, you're so meta! (That's a cool thing)

Actually I did not claim to know that this is the case any more than you claimed to know that this would take a "huge movement" unless you are claiming to know this, please correct me there if I am wrong there. As I have said to others, if you have any factual knowledge of the process I, and I think everyone, would welcome it.

The only difference is that my perception is that this would be a more simple procedural state by state issue that could be completed by lawyers on AOA payroll and your perception is that it would take " a huge movement".

The reality may lie somewhere within the spectrum or our non-specific perceptions.

As for there not being support for the issue I will reference you to the voting poll of this thread.

Best




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Even if this was allowed by a state, it is against the AOA Code of Ethics, at least the way they're interpreted by the AOA.

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/about/leadership/Pages/aoa-code-of-ethic-interpretation.aspx

Does that document seem a little... backwards to anyone else? Why is it misleading for a DO to refer to himself or herself as "Dr. John Doe" or to list himself in the phone book as "Physician?" And couldn't the 1st part be interpreted to mean that DOs who are board certified by the ABMS and not the osteopathic specialty organization can't advertise a specialty?
 
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I take a 4 year break from this place and nothing has changed. Still obsessed with the "degree change." I will share with you the one time (yes one time) a patient said something about my degree after four years of residency.

ME: (in a room finishing suturing a central line in place), after hearing a lot of commotion from the hallway I walk out to see a crisis patient running up and down the hallway screaming. I call to her, "Ma'am, may I help you?"
Patient: (wild eyes and all) "I NEED A REAL DOCTOR NOT AN EYE DOCTOR!"
ME: (pausing in confusion) "okay then" and "nurse" (holding up five fingers followed by 2, the universal sign in the ED for chemical restart needed).

It took me 20 minutes to realize that she had seen the DO on my name badge and assumed I was an optometrist/opthamologist

Stop worrying, all my patients call me Dr. Jamers and I work in four of the busiest EDs in the state.

Jamers
 
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I take a 4 year break from this place and nothing has changed. Still obsessed with the "degree change." I will share with you the one time (yes one time) a patient said something about my degree after four years of residency.

ME: (in a room finishing suturing a central line in place), after hearing a lot of commotion from the hallway I walk out to see a crisis patient running up and down the hallway screaming. I call to her, "Ma'am, may I help you?"
Patient: (wild eyes and all) "I NEED A REAL DOCTOR NOT AN EYE DOCTOR!"
ME: (pausing in confusion) "okay then" and "nurse" (holding up five fingers followed by 2, the universal sign in the ED for chemical restart needed).

It took me 20 minutes to realize that she had seen the DO on my name badge and assumed I was an optometrist/opthamologist

Stop worrying, all my patients call me Dr. Jamers and I work in four of the busiest EDs in the state.

Jamers
Jersey represent!
 
More like we're bad at defending our economic interests. Why do nurses get such power to lobby? Why do alternative medicine professions have so much power? Why do physicians constantly get shafted?

This is so disgustingly accurate.
Perception is that nurses are angels from above who, after decades of training, sacrifice their personal lives to love and care for patients.
Doctors spend most of their day buying sports cars or relaxing at one of their various beach houses until age 35 when they retire.
 
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Margin of error?

I do find it odd that 3 week in this was 66% against to 33% for change, and 4 weeks in its 49-51. Not that Im accusing anyone of creating 40 burner accounts, but it is very curious that with >150 votes its entirely one way and with 220 its an entirely different way
 
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I do find it odd that 3 week in this was 66% against to 33% for change, and 4 weeks in its 49-51. Not that Im accusing anyone of creating 40 burner accounts, but it is very curious that with >150 votes its entirely one way and with 220 its an entirely different way

Honestly, there's nothing interesting about it. It's random stuff and can be influenced by just about anyone and everything. And I think for a few days it was advertised as a high activity topic which made more people come check it out.
 
Back on SDN for the first time in months. Here is this piece of crap thread again. Logging out, see ya'll later.
 
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Honestly, there's nothing interesting about it. It's random stuff and can be influenced by just about anyone and everything. And I think for a few days it was advertised as a high activity topic which made more people come check it out.
God forbid the discussion in a thread leads anyone to change their mind.
 
MDO looks a lot to me like DMD and VMD. Might as well switch to NMD for non medical doctor.

This reminds me of an interesting experience I had during a recent IM rotation, where the attending (MD) referred a patient to an N-MD, describing the naturopath as, "basically an MD with a special understanding of natural medications," which was easily digested in the patient's mind as someone who she would trust with her health as much as this IM doc. However, when this doc tried describing DOs to patients, the message didn't translate so smoothly, which I gathered was in part due to the initials being so confusing (and historically xenophobic).

I would say that there's not a whole lot lost on switching to MDO or MD-O. I don't foresee MD, DO or DO, MD, or MD/DO or anything that lists both degrees as being plausible, as Osteopathic Medical Schools are not accredited to award an MD degree, which these latter ones imply.

The further explanation of the degree (initials) seems negligible, as few if any of the patients I see know what a DO is anyway - square one is not far from where we are today with name recognition. Either way, you're describing what your role is as an osteopathic physician to nearly 100% of your patients. With a name change, maybe those patients that opted to skip over you in the internet search (which happens frequently), may not feel so repulsed by your initials if they see that MD in there.
 
I don't think anyone is repulsed by DO. This is a straw man.

I also live in state with one of the lowest percentage of DOs in the country (at just over 4% of active physicians) and I knew what a DO was for good chunk of my life without ever (AFAIK) meeting one. But more importantly patients who ask what a DO are comically rare. I just recently compiled my patient list. I'd interacted with just under 600 patients in some capacity this year (many in the ED). I would say I was asked what a DO was exactly 3 times. I would guess 200 of them definitely knew and 397 of them didn't care despite it being on my badge and in huge letters on my white coat and on every single document they get from me in a easy to read stamp.

And those three had no difficulty understanding it. Nor was it difficult in the least to explain.

If you're seriously in a place with multiple times the DO concentration, and you can't field this question id be flabbergasted. Sure anecdotes happen. But I've had to explain it to half of one percent of my patients in an area where a DO is a rarity. How frequent could that question be in places with 10-25% of the population being DOs? Which is most states not in the north east. It seems that the idea of degree confusion is a real concern a generation ago and a total red herring now.
 
I also live in state with one of the lowest percentage of DOs in the country (at just over 4% of active physicians) and I knew what a DO was for good chunk of my life without ever (AFAIK) meeting one. But more importantly patients who ask what a DO are comically rare. I just recently compiled my patient list. I'd interacted with just under 600 patients in some capacity this year (many in the ED). I would say I was asked what a DO was exactly 3 times. I would guess 200 of them definitely knew and 397 of them didn't care despite it being on my badge and in huge letters on my white coat and on every single document they get from me in a easy to read stamp.

And those three had no difficulty understanding it. Nor was it difficult in the least to explain.

If you're seriously in a place with multiple times the DO concentration, and you can't field this question id be flabbergasted. Sure anecdotes happen. But I've had to explain it to half of one percent of my patients in an area where a DO is a rarity. How frequent could that question be in places with 10-25% of the population being DOs? Which is most states not in the north east. It seems that the idea of degree confusion is a real concern a generation ago and a total red herring now.

What was your explanation of DO to those three patients? Just curious for future tips.

How's your environment as a DO now that you're in the "real world" with MD residents/attendings/miscellaneous medical staff?
 
What was your explanation of DO to those three patients? Just curious for future tips.

How's your environment as a DO now that you're in the "real world" with MD residents/attendings/miscellaneous medical staff?

"Oh, it stands for doctor of osteopathic medicine. When you get a medical degree there are two possible degrees a school can give you to make you a physician/doctor. Most give MD. Because of history some give DO. Mine gave a DO. You should look it up. Now let me see that swollen testicle of yours"

Most nurses refer to my degree as MD if they ever specifically do so. I haven't figured out if they use MD as a term for all degrees that make you a physician (e.g. 'yea doc, you get that respect once you get the MD" or if they think that is specifically my degree. Since MBBCh, MBBS types also outnumber DOs in my area, the term MD is technically inaccurate for most physicians in the hospital anyway, so I always assumed the use of the term "MD" at times by nurses was casual term usage. I've never corrected them because I've never seen them get it wrong on documents, where they take time to look up my degree.

And in the irony of all irony, the only two times I've seen MD attending be anything but completely degree blind was two attendings from AOA programs who were MDs and felt that all DOs needed to answer for why they went DO instead of MD to evaluate their ability to be honest about themself. If you said it's because you loved DO blah blah blah, they would not want you in their program. The correct answers are "I have a very strong geographic preference and wasn't good enough for the MD schools in my area" or "I decided late that I wanted to be a doctor and I had too many bad grades early dragging my overall application down". These were major players at an AOA program. Never seen an MD attending in any ACGME program treat me differently. Some may have shared that thought, but the only one to do anything to suggest they had that thought (and they flat out said it to me) were in an AOA program.
 
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"Oh, it stands for doctor of osteopathic medicine. When you get a medical degree there are two possible degrees a school can give you to make you a physician/doctor. Most give MD. Because of history some give DO. Mine gave a DO. You should look it up. Now let me see that swollen testicle of yours"

Most nurses refer to my degree as MD if they ever specifically do so. I haven't figured out if they use MD as a term for all degrees that make you a physician (e.g. 'yea doc, you get that respect once you get the MD" or if they think that is specifically my degree. Since MBBCh, MBBS types also outnumber DOs in my area, the term MD is technically inaccurate for most physicians in the hospital anyway, so I always assumed the use of the term "MD" at times by nurses was casual term usage. I've never corrected them because I've never seen them get it wrong on documents, where they take time to look up my degree.

And in the irony of all irony, the only two times I've seen MD attending be anything but completely degree blind was two attendings from AOA programs who were MDs and felt that all DOs needed to answer for why they went DO instead of MD to evaluate their ability to be honest about themself. If you said it's because you loved DO blah blah blah, they would not want you in their program. The correct answers are "I have a very strong geographic preference and wasn't good enough for the MD schools in my area" or "I decided late that I wanted to be a doctor and I had too many bad grades early dragging my overall application down". These were major players at an AOA program. Never seen an MD attending in any ACGME program treat me differently. Some may have shared that thought, but the only one to do anything to suggest they had that thought (and they flat out said it to me) were in an AOA program.


Wait wait...so you're telling me, that based on your experience in the tri-state area, that there are MD attendings that are involved in the AOA residency admissions committee, who make it their job to harass DO applicants who are applying to their own residency branch....but MD attendings from ACGME residencies are more laid back?

What kind of backwards nonsense is up in these hospitals.
 
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