New Poll: Change D.O. to M.D.O. ? - Yes or No -

[DocEspana]

Wait wait...so you're telling me, that based on your experience in the tri-state area, that there are MD attendings that are involved in the AOA residency admissions committee, who make it their job to harass DO applicants who are applying to their own residency branch....but MD attendings from ACGME residencies are more laid back?

What kind of backwards nonsense is up in these hospitals.

This is true. In Philly and NYC some MD attendings who are part of the admission committee in AOA programs are critical of DOs (or at least how they ended up at DO instead of MD but ended up ingerviewing for highly competitive residencies anyway). But the same field in acgme are totally non critical attendings (at least vocally).

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[Dr. Zombie]

This is true. In Philly and NYC some MD attendings who are part of the admission committee in AOA programs are critical of DOs (or at least how they ended up at DO instead of MD but ended up ingerviewing for highly competitive residencies anyway). But the same field in acgme are totally non critical attendings (at least vocally).

Did they harass you? If they did, I hope you put them in their place.

 

[DocEspana]

Did they harass you? If they did, I hope you put them in their place.

They asked me why I was a DO. if I was good enough to apply to their (AOA) program I should have been an MD. My response was appropriate.

 

[NurWollen]

They asked me why I was a DO. if I was good enough to apply to their (AOA) program I should have been an MD. My response was appropriate.

Awkward. I wouldn't know how to respond.

 

[reznelson]

"Oh, it stands for doctor of osteopathic medicine. When you get a medical degree there are two possible degrees a school can give you to make you a physician/doctor. Most give MD. Because of history some give DO. Mine gave a DO. You should look it up. Now let me see that swollen testicle of yours"

Most nurses refer to my degree as MD if they ever specifically do so. I haven't figured out if they use MD as a term for all degrees that make you a physician (e.g. 'yea doc, you get that respect once you get the MD" or if they think that is specifically my degree. Since MBBCh, MBBS types also outnumber DOs in my area, the term MD is technically inaccurate for most physicians in the hospital anyway, so I always assumed the use of the term "MD" at times by nurses was casual term usage. I've never corrected them because I've never seen them get it wrong on documents, where they take time to look up my degree.

And in the irony of all irony, the only two times I've seen MD attending be anything but completely degree blind was two attendings from AOA programs who were MDs and felt that all DOs needed to answer for why they went DO instead of MD to evaluate their ability to be honest about themself. If you said it's because you loved DO blah blah blah, they would not want you in their program. The correct answers are "I have a very strong geographic preference and wasn't good enough for the MD schools in my area" or "I decided late that I wanted to be a doctor and I had too many bad grades early dragging my overall application down". These were major players at an AOA program. Never seen an MD attending in any ACGME program treat me differently. Some may have shared that thought, but the only one to do anything to suggest they had that thought (and they flat out said it to me) were in an AOA program.

I would argue that the ED (and any hospitalist care for that matter) is very different than what I was referring to above. I completely agree that nobody asks for credentials when they have been stripped of their accustomed class rank, and join the rest of half-naked and terrified ER/inpatient census. As the great Jerry Seinfeld has pointed out, at that point, "anyone that comes in with pants on seems like they know what they're talking about" (). Thus, the hospital is not where you see the snubbing that you see from outpatient "shopping."

I would also argue that not every DO simply threw out a bunch of applications to DO and MD schools and just went to whatever school let them in as you imply in your explanation to patients (which sounds more akin to the semantic difference between DMD/DDS). Some DOs became osteopathic physicians for a reason - choosing DO training over MD, and didn't just end up with a DO "because of history."

 

[DocEspana]

I would argue that the ED (and any hospitalist care for that matter) is very different than what I was referring to above. I completely agree that nobody asks for credentials when they have been stripped of their accustomed class rank, and join the rest of half-naked and terrified ER/inpatient census. As the great Jerry Seinfeld has pointed out, at that point, "anyone that comes in with pants on seems like they know what they're talking about" (). Thus, the hospital is not where you see the snubbing that you see from outpatient "shopping."

I would also argue that not every DO simply threw out a bunch of applications to DO and MD schools and just went to whatever school let them in as you imply in your explanation to patients (which sounds more akin to the semantic difference between DMD/DDS). Some DOs became osteopathic physicians for a reason - choosing DO training over MD, and didn't just end up with a DO "because of history."

Wether you want to believe it or not, we are nearing (almost typed "at". Not there yet) the point where it is a semantic DDS vs DMD dichotomy. Those who choose it for any reason except "just where I happened to attend" are a dying breed. Idk how many more years, but it's definitely numbered. So might as well get that rhetoric into your head now. Osteopathic uniqueness is nearly dead and I intend to celebrate at its funeral.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Wether you want to believe it or not, we are nearing (almost typed "at". Not there yet) the point where it is a semantic DDS vs DMD dichotomy. Those who choose it for any reason except "just where I happened to attend" are a dying breed. Idk how many more years, but it's definitely numbered. So might as well get that rhetoric into your head now. Osteopathic uniqueness is nearly dead and I intend to celebrate at its funeral.

I support DocEspana in his opinion. I want to add that I am not biting the hand that will feed me, because I am very grateful for DO schools to have given me the opportunity to be a physician--especially in such a golden time of the merger and growing opportunities.

Nonetheless, if DO schools represented more than just 12 credits of OMM, where maybe it involved different classes, or just anything that could further differentiate it from MD schools, then (you can quote me on this), I would 100% defend its distinctiveness.

But unfortunately, as DocEspana and many other realistic people have said, at this point, it almost semantics. AOA knows this, DO schools know this and the only thing that's stopping from being semantics are the AOA board executives that do not want to lose their jobs. ****, I wouldn't wanna lose my cushioned-chair job either, if it was me.

 

[DocEspana]

Ever type something and then think to yourself 10 minutes later....

"Yeaaaaa... This is going to garner a few too many comments. Probably should have been more subtle."

That's me right now. Oh well. Its how I feel, just don't have the time for the argument I know this will cause.

 

[reznelson]

That's me right now. Oh well. Its how I feel, just don't have the time for the argument I know this will cause.

ditto

Ever type something and then think to yourself 10 minutes later....

"Yeaaaaa... This is going to garner a few too many comments. Probably should have been more subtle."

That's me right now. Oh well. Its how I feel, just don't have the time for the argument I know this will cause.

Perhaps I am a bit of an idealist in assuming that people put more thought into where they wanted to attend medical school. I probably did more research into the schools I chose to apply to than most, as I had been through two graduate schools in the past - where it's all about picking the right program and not just throwing darts at a board and assuming it's the same education (give or take some historical twist or two?). As similar as med school structure is, there are considerable differences emerging in scope, faculty interest, research, etc.

Regardless, I agree that the majority probably do just as you said, and go wherever fate directs. I guess I can only speak of myself and retrospectively say that I am glad I didn't.

 

[DD214_DOC]

I'm not sure why I'm surprised to see yet another, "change the degree" poll. It's funny that I still feel the need to put up the facade of why I attended a DO school. The real answer is that going that route allowed me to still achieve my goal but have a life outside of studying all the time in undergrad. It was deliberate. I knew I could still get to where I am without needing a 4.0. I'm here, so I don't really care what anyone thinks about that.

The truth is that nobody cares what your degree is. In a few years, neither will you. You are ultimately evaluated on your performance which is independent of your degree.

 

[MetalloBetalactamase]

Your response is important. Complete the poll: Should the D.O. degree be changed to M.D.O. degree?

(((We all know that there are many, many discussions on this forum about changing the degree. There are even a few polls here. Please read the logic below for this new poll...)))

There are a few organized movements that are considering advocating for this new degree change.


HISTORY and REASON for new poll:

Recent articles in the JAOA have explained the history of the osteopathic degree, and the debates and discussions surrounding the designation, and change in the designation, of the osteopathic degree.

The discussion of changing the degree from D.O. to M.D.O. dates back to July, 1899 (JAOA, Feb 2014 p.122).

Although the D.O. degree has a century-old history in the U.S., many believe that the designation has failed to become equal in status, understanding, and awareness as the M.D. designation. Many D.O.'s, although proud of their education, do not feel that their careers are as recognizable as their allopathic counterparts.

To complicate the significance and universality of the D.O. degree is the fact that there are several schools around the world that offer a D.O. (Doctor of Osteopathy) degree that is not a medical degree. In Spain, there are schools that offer a D.O. degree by internet distance education. These individuals with international D.O. degrees are not physicians and are limited to osteopathic manipulation only.

The heterogeneity of the 'D.O.' degree around the world has caused confusion in the general public about the degree. It may be a reason why U.S. D.O.'s are unable to practice medicine in many countries around the world. Of all of the D.O. degrees that are issued around the world, only U.S. D.O. degrees are medical degrees.

There have been a few polls about changing the D.O. to M.D. It is the opinion of many that this is not a realistic possibility. Critics of this proposal state that it detracts from the unique aspects and history of our field.

Many believe that osteopathic physicians need a new designation that is specific and unique to a medical degree; that indicates that the osteopathic physician is a physician, AND an an osteopathic physician.

Given the recent change of our diploma designation in the U.S. over the past few decades from "Doctor of Osteopathy" to "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine", many believe that the "M"-medicine should be added to our designation, and that 'Medical Doctor - Osteopathic' or 'Medical Doctor of Osteopathy' is more descriptive.

This poll is not about changing the degree to anything other than M.D.O. There are several posts on this forum about changing to M.D., M.D/D.O., MDDO, OMD, and others. This polls should be limited to D.O and M.D.O. Please only answer if you are an osteopathic student or osteopathic physician.

Complete the poll: Should the D.O. degree be changed to M.D.O. degree?