New Schools: Nightmare?

[cbrons]

Hello all, I today received an interview from a school that is going to be matriculating their first class beginning fall 2011. I have heard many stories from students at new medical schools that the first couple years can be a total cluster-you-know-what. I like the location of this school and would consider going but I wanted some opinions from students at new schools.

Also, are there any good questions I should have ready to ask at my interview? I.e. Do you have the curriculum set? etc.

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[thepoopologist]

Not curriculum. Ask about the hospital rotations 3rd and 4th year. Are they arranged or do you have to arrange them.

Next would be online resources like recorded lectures and scribe notes for the first two years.

And then would be dismissal policy.

 

[cbrons]

Not curriculum. Ask about the hospital rotations 3rd and 4th year. Are they arranged or do you have to arrange them.

Next would be online resources like recorded lectures and scribe notes for the first two years.

And then would be dismissal policy.

When you say arranged rotations, you mean there are actually schools where you yourself have to call up different area hospital to inquire about whether you can spend X number of weeks in a certain specialty? I've heard about elective rotations which I assume you might have to arrange yourself but what about your staple requirements for graduation?

 

[cabinbuilder]

When you say arranged rotations, you mean there are actually schools where you yourself have to call up different area hospital to inquire about whether you can spend X number of weeks in a certain specialty? I've heard about elective rotations which I assume you might have to arrange yourself but what about your staple requirements for graduation?

Yes, make sure the school has pre-arranged established CORE ROTATIONS where you can just pick a site and go to your rotation there. Usually core rotation sites have housing available as well.

If the school doesn't have this then you will be setting up all your rotations and housing for 2 years. A real hassle. However, if you are one of those who wants to set up your own rotations and not be told by the school where you get to go - that may be in your favor.

Where I went to school they had core rotations set up but you also had to option to do CORE as an away rotation if you chose to do that but they did not assist with housing or travel arrangements. It was on you.

 

[Bones DO]

Hello all, I today received an interview from a school that is going to be matriculating their first class beginning fall 2011. I have heard many stories from students at new medical schools that the first couple years can be a total cluster-you-know-what. I like the location of this school and would consider going but I wanted some opinions from students at new schools.

Also, are there any good questions I should have ready to ask at my interview? I.e. Do you have the curriculum set? etc.

I have attended both an established and a new school. Oddly, I have had a MUCH better experience at the new school so far.

I agree with the above about the rotations being set up, though I'm not at that stage yet. However, I do think you should look into curriculum as you state in your opening post. At NYCOM, each system was taught by at a host of different instructors, many of who were adjuncts that taught 1 - 3 lecture hours each. At RVU they have a core faculty that is pretty consistent.

The professors at NYCOM were not at all bad, this withstanding, but I prefer this setup and find that having this core of professors makes them somewhat more vested in their students and more accessible in general, as they are almost always on campus. For that reason I would encourage you to ask how many core professors they have and how many adjuncts they plan to use. Best of luck!

 

[Rollo]

Definitely inquire about rotations as far as whether the school will set the core rotations up for you or not.

Also, ask about how many electives they plan to offer 3/4 years and when during those years? This is very important because schools like PCOM (where I go) gives you 6 months of electives + 3 months of selectives during the last 2 years which gives you the student flexibility in figuring out which areas of medicine you want to explore more.

Another thing you might want to ask is whether they will make the lectures mandatory or not. I personally believe that this would be a crucial factor since if lectures ARE mandatory and you figure out that you're the type of student who can study on their own, then you will be unhappy.

Curiously, which school is this?

 

[cbrons]

Thanks for the responses so far. Seems like the rotations arrangement question and electives are something I should keep in mind.

Curiously, which school is this?

VCOM-SC

 

[peppy]

I would agree with those saying to pay attention to the rotation setup.
The 1st two years are not really all that crucial. Anyone can study on their own and do well during the pre-clinical years. Having crappy rotations, however, will make a serious negative impact on your ability to get into a good residency (and also possibly put you at risk of getting kicked out of residency if your school doesn't prepare you well for what is expected of interns).

 

[cbrons]

I would agree with those saying to pay attention to the rotation setup.
The 1st two years are not really all that crucial. Anyone can study on their own and do well during the pre-clinical years. Having crappy rotations, however, will make a serious negative impact on your ability to get into a good residency (and also possibly put you at risk of getting kicked out of residency if your school doesn't prepare you well for what is expected of interns).

Thank you, anything else? What are some of the biggest challenges at new schools other than the rotations arrangement? I have heard students complain of the administration constantly changing the curriculum and other requirements as if they're doing things on the fly (won't mention the name of the school but there is a thread where this seems to be a common complaint). I don't want to get anyone in trouble so if you want to private message me I'd be grateful. Just trying to develop a list of questions I should be ready to ask.

 

[Rollo]

I suppose you can ask how they came about setting up the curriculum. Did they use a pre-existing model or they created a new one from scratch? Obviously, there will be lot less adjustments needed in a curriculum that has been used elsewhere with success.

Also, ask about how important the student body input will be the first few years. That means, can you, the student, stand up to what might seem to be an unfair, unreasonable administration? This will become very crucial especially for the inaugurating class because you guys will have to speak up when things aren't going right. And you need to make sure that there is a system in place where your voices will be heard.

 

[goooooober]

Thank you, anything else? What are some of the biggest challenges at new schools other than the rotations arrangement? I have heard students complain of the administration constantly changing the curriculum and other requirements as if they're doing things on the fly (won't mention the name of the school but there is a thread where this seems to be a common complaint). I don't want to get anyone in trouble so if you want to private message me I'd be grateful. Just trying to develop a list of questions I should be ready to ask.

Bottom line, while all educational institutions undergo periodic change in curriculum and otherwise, newer schools tend to undergo these changes more often, as they are new and mostly experimenting with everything in the begining.

Most important, pay attention to rotation set up to make sure not only does the school have enough HOSPITAL-BASED EDUCATIONAL ROTATIONS (ideally with residents and all) but also that you have the options available so you are not forced to do rotations the school sets you up with. Most often, these people (administration) don't care and just want to collect your tuition and shove you in some office and call it a "ROTATION" and get you out of their hair.

Good Luck.

 

[cbrons]

Most often, these people (administration) don't care and just want to collect your tuition and shove you in some office and call it a "ROTATION" and get you out of their hair.

I hope that's really not the case at the school I eventually wind up at...

When they say elective rotations, do you typically have leeway in arranging them? For instance, in the rural town in which I went for undergrad., I noticed several MD and DO students doing a 4-6 "preceptorship" with a local family practice physician. Now the physicians themselves called it a preceptorship but is this what is meant by "elective rotation"?

 

[Rollo]

I hope that's really not the case at the school I eventually wind up at...

When they say elective rotations, do you typically have leeway in arranging them? For instance, in the rural town in which I went for undergrad., I noticed several MD and DO students doing a 4-6 "preceptorship" with a local family practice physician. Now the physicians themselves called it a preceptorship but is this what is meant by "elective rotation"?

Yes, they were doing a rotation with them.

Elective rotations are very much up to you in which field and which hospital you want to do it in.

So you can see how much freedom you would have if you had few months of elective rotations scheduled nicely through out both 3rd and 4th years.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Thank you, anything else? What are some of the biggest challenges at new schools other than the rotations arrangement? I have heard students complain of the administration constantly changing the curriculum and other requirements as if they're doing things on the fly (won't mention the name of the school but there is a thread where this seems to be a common complaint). I don't want to get anyone in trouble so if you want to private message me I'd be grateful. Just trying to develop a list of questions I should be ready to ask.

To be honest, the "doing curriculum on the fly" phenomenon isn't limited just to new schools. Around here, it often feels like they've been flying by the seat of their pants ever since they "revamped" the curriculum last year. If you don't like the sound of something like this, then make sure you pick a campus where the curriculum is mature.

 

[DuxburyPembroke]

I am in the inaugural class at a new school (DO, so pretty loose accreditation) - lots of problems, but also a lot of leeway. Our rotations ended up being over-competitive, but okay overall.

Electives, for us, are anywhere we want to go, pretty much, including all FP and rural rotations.

Hope you're happy wherevr you end up!

 

[cbrons]

(DO, so pretty loose accreditation

that's pretty sad... I hope that the AOA standards aren't inadequate like you seem to suggest. I really wouldn't know.

 

[Flushot]

While I do agree that 3rd and 4th year are very important, you also have to ask how well the school prepares you for those years. Nothing would be worse to me than walking into your first surgery rotation on the first day and the surgeon handing you the suture and say, "Ok, tie up for me" and trying to find the best way to say you can't do it.

Granted, I'm not a 3rd year, but this happens to the 3rd years from my school that I speak with and they comment on the preparations from 2nd year that helped them. Then again, if you're that motivated, you could always teach yourself knot tying or find your own suturing workshops on or off campus, but I find some solidarity in knowing that there is some mandatory training for these skills 2nd year.

 

[group_theory]

While I do agree that 3rd and 4th year are very important, you also have to ask how well the school prepares you for those years. Nothing would be worse to me than walking into your first surgery rotation on the first day and the surgeon handing you the suture and say, "Ok, tie up for me" and trying to find the best way to say you can't do it.

Granted, I'm not a 3rd year, but this happens to the 3rd years from my school that I speak with and they comment on the preparations from 2nd year that helped them. Then again, if you're that motivated, you could always teach yourself knot tying or find your own suturing workshops on or off campus, but I find some solidarity in knowing that there is some mandatory training for these skills 2nd year.

Virtually all new 3rd years are GREEN when it comes to clinical rotations - doesn't matter if it's MD or DO student. But the type of rotations and exposures are important. I know some established schools where it is possible to do your entire 3rd year rotations in outpatient settings (even surgery ). How would this prepare you for your subI (or AI), and how will this prepare you for residency? What will program directors think when they see on your transcript where you rotated?

Fortunately my 3rd year courses were all done inpatient (with the exception of family medicine), and most had residents in that field that I rotated with (with the exception of psych and peds). It's not just the medical knowledge that you have to learn - it's also the culture of residency that you have to learn as well - what should an intern do? what should a senior do? what's the responsibility of the chief resident? What's morning report? What's grand rounds? What goes on when you take overnight call? I think the students who are not exposed to this are at a disadvantage and will hit a culture shock once residency starts.

In addition, residency is getting more competitive due to increasing number of students graduating (from new DO schools, from new branch campuses, from expanded MD schools, and new MD schools). Having a LOR from an attending who teaches residents/students on a daily basis, who holds a faculty appointment with a medical school, will hold more weight than a community physician who precepts students. Having a school where the dean's office knows how to create each student's MSPE in a timely and organized manner for ERAS is invaluable. Having the dean's office know how to use ERAS, NRMP, NMS, and have past experiences with the scramble will be invaluable to students should they need that help. The new schools will gain these experience with time - but they don't have it yet.

And there's something to be said for having a large and loyal alumni base who can sponsor scholarships, sponsor events, and even help with rotations (and even residency interviews) and eventually job searches.

There are a lot of subtle things that the older establish schools have that newer schools don't have. Doesn't mean the new schools won't make good physicians - just that life gets a little easier at the establish schools compare to the newer schools.

 

[Flushot]

I understand what you mean group_theory and I don't discredit it. I believe those environments are necessary beyond the mandatory ones the school assigns for you. I was just trying to give a little more credit to 2nd year. As for the new school thing, yes, 3rd and 4th should be a concern.

 

[cbrons]

Thanks for all the helpful replies, it really gives me an idea of some things to be thinking about in the next few weeks

 

[cbrons]

What schools make you schedule your own rotations?

 

[DrWBD]

pay attention to rotation set up to make sure not only does the school have enough HOSPITAL-BASED EDUCATIONAL ROTATIONS (ideally with residents and all) but also that you have the options available so you are not forced to do rotations the school sets you up with. Most often, these people (administration) don't care and just want to collect your tuition and shove you in some office and call it a "ROTATION" and get you out of their hair.

this

 

[Coastie]

I was discussing with some colleagues today about the black balling of RVU grads at my current institution.

This is something that is across many other institutions, so I would BEWARE of attending any new place. Just food for thought.

Hello all, I today received an interview from a school that is going to be matriculating their first class beginning fall 2011. I have heard many stories from students at new medical schools that the first couple years can be a total cluster-you-know-what. I like the location of this school and would consider going but I wanted some opinions from students at new schools.

Also, are there any good questions I should have ready to ask at my interview? I.e. Do you have the curriculum set? etc.

 

[The Poet Sings]

I was discussing with some colleagues today about the black balling of RVU grads at my current institution.

This is something that is across many other institutions, so I would BEWARE of attending any new place. Just food for thought.

is it because rvu is new, or because they're for profit? because unless you're at the original at still, every school was new once* and it doesn't make sense to discriminate against them just because they're new. perhaps if they had an issue with the way the school ran itself, or with the dean/faculty/something like that, the black balling would make sense. but just hating on new schools because they're new doesn't quite sound logical to me. how can the students ever prove themselves if no one wants to give them a chance?

*yes i know that even the original at still was new once. but you get my point.

 

[docman85]

Cbron, I can assure you that VCOM-SC will have CORE sites ready for you not to mention the hospital in Spartanburg is huge, and is actually one of our core rotation sites. Seeing as to how the Dean of the SC campus is the one that was up here in bburg when i started, she will no doubt see to it that all matriculates are well taken care of in that department.

 

[Emergency 2009]

I was discussing with some colleagues today about the black balling of RVU grads at my current institution.

This is something that is across many other institutions, so I would BEWARE of attending any new place. Just food for thought.

...so if a student graduates from one of these schools with stellar board scores and excellent rotation references they will not be considered for a residency match? That seems a bit silly to me.

 

[cbrons]

Cbron, I can assure you that VCOM-SC will have CORE sites ready for you not to mention the hospital in Spartanburg is huge, and is actually one of our core rotation sites. Seeing as to how the Dean of the SC campus is the one that was up here in bburg when i started, she will no doubt see to it that all matriculates are well taken care of in that department.

Thanks a lot, I'm actually looking forward to interviewing there. The people who went already had good things to say. CCOM is way closer for me and would make living situation easier but I'm keeping an open mind.

And the VCOM-Blacksburg people have a lot of good things to say about their school (save for some of the people in last years class thread) so I'm sure it'll be interesting.

 

[tehdude]

...so if a student graduates from one of these schools with stellar board scores and excellent rotation references they will not be considered for a residency match? That seems a bit silly to me.

You might be surprised. I've heard firsthand of much sillier reasons.

 

[Coastie]

...so if a student graduates from one of these schools with stellar board scores and excellent rotation references they will not be considered for a residency match? That seems a bit silly to me.

Yes. Programs don't care about excellent rotation references from what they view as sub-sub-par institutions, and stellar board scores are a dime a dozen, including from carib schools.

Sorry. RVU grads will find themselves shut out of the best specialties and many, many residency locations.

 

[Luv2Cut]

RVU students will not be shut out of anything. Don't worry about that. Residency programs cannot look a qualified applicant with good numbers in the eye and say were not considering you because you went to RVU.

Many IMGs every year from known subpar medical education apply to allopathic residencies every year. There are even IMGs that were practitioners in their own countries for years. They come to US take the USMLE and this immediately becomes the great equalizer. I personally know of multiple docs in practice, even specialties like ophthalmology and orthopedic surgery that graduated at international schools I never heard of but were able to get residencies here in the US. If the majority of RVU students are scoring at the mean or better for DO schools then they will do just fine.

There will always be bias in applying to residencies. If its there then just acknowledge it and move on. Simple as that.

 

[Flushot]

RVU students will not be shut out of anything. Don't worry about that. Residency programs cannot look a qualified applicant with good numbers in the eye and say were not considering you because you went to RVU.

Many IMGs every year from known subpar medical education apply to allopathic residencies every year. There are even IMGs that were practitioners in their own countries for years. They come to US take the USMLE and this immediately becomes the great equalizer. I personally know of multiple docs in practice, even specialties like ophthalmology and orthopedic surgery that graduated at international schools I never heard of but were able to get residencies here in the US. If the majority of RVU students are scoring at the mean or better for DO schools then they will do just fine.

There will always be bias in applying to residencies. If its there then just acknowledge it and move on. Simple as that.

The USMLE being the great equalizer can only go so far, not to mention it seriously depends on the specialty and who you know. This is why I feel it is maddening to judge a school on board scores. Like I said earlier, I would decide on location, age of the school and clerkships (not necessarily in this order). Out of my acceptances, I picked the best one and must deal with the good and the bad.

scpod talked a lot about his match and during the interview trail, he was often asked about 3rd and 4th year. They truly wanted to know if he was in ward based, in-patient rotations. I think he also emphasized the weight of his LORs. You could say it's just an IM thing, but honestly, SDN has said this for a long time, and yet somehow, people still give a lot of credit to pass rates for Step 1.

Though important, I feel most institutions will prepare you well for Step 1. After that, how set are you for the last two years?

 

[group_theory]

Many IMGs every year from known subpar medical education apply to allopathic residencies every year. There are even IMGs that were practitioners in their own countries for years. They come to US take the USMLE and this immediately becomes the great equalizer. I personally know of multiple docs in practice, even specialties like ophthalmology and orthopedic surgery that graduated at international schools I never heard of but were able to get residencies here in the US. If the majority of RVU students are scoring at the mean or better for DO schools then they will do just fine.

Strongly disagree with this statement. Just look at the NRMP Match Results for the last few years - how many US IMGs are in orthopedics (3), ophthalmology (28 IMGs, no breakdowns between US IMG and true IMG), Neurosurgery (3), General Surgery (51), etc?

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2010.pdf
http://www.sfmatch.org/residency/ophthalmology/about_match/match_report.pdf

And with DO schools expanding (class sizes increase, branch campuses, brand new schools), and with MD schools expanding (increasing class size, new MD schools) - the competition is heating up. Many programs are experiencing an increase in applications, and the applicants are experiencing the heat.

Internal Medicine (ACGME), out of 4999 spots, only 52 went unfilled through the match. General Surgery (categorical, ACGME) out of 1077 spots, only 2 spots went unfilled through the match.

Great board scores are a dime a dozen. We have a lot of candidates who scored 99/99 on their step 1/step 2. We also interview candidates who score 85/85. And we rank our candidates on a variety of factors - board scores being only a subset.

The USMLE being the great equalizer can only go so far, not to mention it seriously depends on the specialty and who you know. This is why I feel it is maddening to judge a school on board scores. Like I said earlier, I would decide on location, age of the school and clerkships (not necessarily in this order). Out of my acceptances, I picked the best one and must deal with the good and the bad.

scpod talked a lot about his match and during the interview trail, he was often asked about 3rd and 4th year. They truly wanted to know if he was in ward based, in-patient rotations. I think he also emphasized the weight of his LORs. You could say it's just an IM thing, but honestly, SDN has said this for a long time, and yet somehow, people still give a lot of credit to pass rates for Step 1.

Though important, I feel most institutions will prepare you well for Step 1. After that, how set are you for the last two years?

During my residency interviews (many years ago), I had several PD asked me about where I did my rotations. Fortunately (thanks to PCOM), all my core rotations were done at hospitals with ACGME residencies in those fields (with the exception of peds and psych). One of the PD confided in me that the reason he asked was because one of his previous residents who matched into his program - turns out that intern's 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations were all outpatient experiences so intern year was his first experience on the inpatient medicine.

Newer schools will have new and shiny facilities. They can also have the latest technology. But it's the clinical years that really differentiate schools. So when I hear applicants on SDN talk about how fancy, shiny, or modern their lecture halls or schools are - I just smile a bit because in the end, all of that doesn't matter if the students don't get exposed to inpatient rotations at large tertiary care hospitals, taken overnight call with the team, see the range of COMMON pathologies, etc.


*no, I'm not going to name which school that intern attended.

 

[IandIatrogenic]

Strongly disagree with this statement. Just look at the NRMP Match Results for the last few years - how many US IMGs are in orthopedics (3), ophthalmology (28 IMGs, no breakdowns between US IMG and true IMG), Neurosurgery (3), General Surgery (51), etc?

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2010.pdf
http://www.sfmatch.org/residency/ophthalmology/about_match/match_report.pdf

And with DO schools expanding (class sizes increase, branch campuses, brand new schools), and with MD schools expanding (increasing class size, new MD schools) - the competition is heating up. Many programs are experiencing an increase in applications, and the applicants are experiencing the heat.

Internal Medicine (ACGME), out of 4999 spots, only 52 went unfilled through the match. General Surgery (categorical, ACGME) out of 1077 spots, only 2 spots went unfilled through the match.

Great board scores are a dime a dozen. We have a lot of candidates who scored 99/99 on their step 1/step 2. We also interview candidates who score 85/85. And we rank our candidates on a variety of factors - board scores being only a subset.



During my residency interviews (many years ago), I had several PD asked me about where I did my rotations. Fortunately (thanks to PCOM), all my core rotations were done at hospitals with ACGME residencies in those fields (with the exception of peds and psych). One of the PD confided in me that the reason he asked was because one of his previous residents who matched into his program - turns out that intern's 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations were all outpatient experiences so intern year was his first experience on the inpatient medicine.

Newer schools will have new and shiny facilities. They can also have the latest technology. But it's the clinical years that really differentiate schools. So when I hear applicants on SDN talk about how fancy, shiny, or modern their lecture halls or schools are - I just smile a bit because in the end, all of that doesn't matter if the students don't get exposed to inpatient rotations at large tertiary care hospitals, taken overnight call with the team, see the range of COMMON pathologies, etc.


*no, I'm not going to name which school that intern attended.

I love it. A couple of snot-nosed residents with the clairvoyance to see into the minds of residency directors across the country. It's as if just because you graduated and made it through your internship we are supposed to take your word as bond? Funny most of the residents at THE top residencies I KNOW are too busy to come on to SDN to pontificate to strangers.

I know it's been a few years since you took statistics but humor me and let me know that you still remember what a standard distribution looks like and how USMLE scores are set. Then of course you know by definition "stellar" scores are NOT a dime a dozen.

Do stellar board scores assure one of a getting into a competitive residency. No, but considering they are THE litmus test for whether competitive residencies will even look at the rest of your application I'd say they are very VERY damn important.

BTW, IMG's have an opportunity to enter residencies outside of the match. Where is your statistics on those people?

And while I'll happily concede that no one is going to be impressed when a candidate is coming in the door with their RVU diploma in hand looking to enter into a top residency (say DPH ER perhaps?) I highly doubt RVU is even on the map yet for any ACGME residencies. And if you are referring to AOA residencies turning their collective noses up at RVU applicants that's laughable in and of itself.

Don't get me wrong I enjoy and appreciate your input but your know-it-all attitudes are as offensive as they are unwarranted. I don''t want to argue with you but I also don't think it's out of line to question the motives of some these "no this is THE way it is posts." Is it about informing people and having a dialogue or is it about being right?

 

[Coastie]

RVU is most certainly "on the map" of PDs. Everybody knows it's a for-profit DO school run by carib med school guys.

That sort of thing is hard to slip by PDs these days.

With increased competition from existing schools and other new schools, good luck landing decent spots out of that place.

I love it. A couple of snot-nosed residents with the clairvoyance to see into the minds of residency directors across the country. It's as if just because you graduated and made it through your internship we are supposed to take your word as bond? Funny most of the residents at THE top residencies I KNOW are too busy to come on to SDN to pontificate to strangers.

I know it's been a few years since you took statistics but humor me and let me know that you still remember what a standard distribution looks like and how USMLE scores are set. Then of course you know by definition "stellar" scores are NOT a dime a dozen.

Do stellar board scores assure one of a getting into a competitive residency. No, but considering they are THE litmus test for whether competitive residencies will even look at the rest of your application I'd say they are very VERY damn important.

BTW, IMG's have an opportunity to enter residencies outside of the match. Where is your statistics on those people?

And while I'll happily concede that no one is going to be impressed when a candidate is coming in the door with their RVU diploma in hand looking to enter into a top residency (say DPH ER perhaps?) I highly doubt RVU is even on the map yet for any ACGME residencies. And if you are referring to AOA residencies turning their collective noses up at RVU applicants that's laughable in and of itself.

Don't get me wrong I enjoy and appreciate your input but your know-it-all attitudes are as offensive as they are unwarranted. I don''t want to argue with you but I also don't think it's out of line to question the motives of some these "no this is THE way it is posts." Is it about informing people and having a dialogue or is it about being right?

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

Great job gang of degrading this thread to another "RVU sucks/no it doesn't" thread. I'm sure the OP appreciates it.

 

[JaggerPlate]

RVU is most certainly "on the map" of PDs. Everybody knows it's a for-profit DO school run by carib med school guys.

That sort of thing is hard to slip by PDs these days.

With increased competition from existing schools and other new schools, good luck landing decent spots out of that place.

I simply find this so hard to believe. There are literally thousands of ACGME programs out there, and I just don't see how some PD in a random program in a state 2,000 miles from Colorado, living in his own super busy, isolated bubble would even hear/care/think about RVU ever. I mean, if you wanted to say PDs associated with residencies in CO don't like it or know about it ... I get that. However, I continually hear that a lot of ACGME PDs don't even know what the COMLEX is out of, how to convert the scores (though the formula is flawed), etc, etc. I'm now supposed to believe these same people are suddenly hyper-aware of RVU and its tax-status???? I could be 100% wrong, but this just doesn't 'make sense' to me. I honestly think all judgments should be withheld until the first class matches or until a PD comes on here and says I'm from an ACGME program in X state and we are aware of RVU and will evaluate its graduates accordingly.

Keep in mind that I am not trying to throw my hat in the ring on either side here. Frankly, I dislike the idea of for-profit education, but I'm also fairly sure it will continue proliferating on both sides of the coin (US MD - google palm beach medical college and US DO).

 

[group_theory]

I love it. A couple of snot-nosed residents with the clairvoyance to see into the minds of residency directors across the country. It's as if just because you graduated and made it through your internship we are supposed to take your word as bond? Funny most of the residents at THE top residencies I KNOW are too busy to come on to SDN to pontificate to strangers.

I know it's been a few years since you took statistics but humor me and let me know that you still remember what a standard distribution looks like and how USMLE scores are set. Then of course you know by definition "stellar" scores are NOT a dime a dozen.

Do stellar board scores assure one of a getting into a competitive residency. No, but considering they are THE litmus test for whether competitive residencies will even look at the rest of your application I'd say they are very VERY damn important.

BTW, IMG's have an opportunity to enter residencies outside of the match. Where is your statistics on those people?

And while I'll happily concede that no one is going to be impressed when a candidate is coming in the door with their RVU diploma in hand looking to enter into a top residency (say DPH ER perhaps?) I highly doubt RVU is even on the map yet for any ACGME residencies. And if you are referring to AOA residencies turning their collective noses up at RVU applicants that's laughable in and of itself.

Don't get me wrong I enjoy and appreciate your input but your know-it-all attitudes are as offensive as they are unwarranted. I don''t want to argue with you but I also don't think it's out of line to question the motives of some these "no this is THE way it is posts." Is it about informing people and having a dialogue or is it about being right?

Such hostile response.

I'm not a fresh graduate or a snot-nose intern - I've actually been around for a while. I've also help participate in my residency in recruitment and selection. I know the scores/grades/LORs of applicants during rank meeting. Almost every year, there are roughly 5-10 people with 99/99 that we rank. Almost everyone we rank score above 85. Maybe one or two would have scores less than 85. Mileage may vary - some residencies may get tons of top scores, while others do not. It really depends on the program and field.

My point was that while scores are important, there are other factors that are involved in selection and ranking too. The importance of 3rd/4th year grades matter a lot. If someone scores 99/99, but only get passes/low passes on their rotations, it brings up a red flag. If someone scores 99/99, but have not rotated through an academic medical center, then the question is - will that intern be ready to hit the ground running come July 1?

I only reported my experiences. Others have posted their experiences. You are certainly free to disagree or disregard the posts. That's the beauty of SDN - others may share their experiences. With thousands of students going through the match process every year, there will certainly be different experiences and perspective.

 

[DrWBD]

I simply find this so hard to believe. There are literally thousands of ACGME programs out there, and I just don't see how some PD in a random program in a state 2,000 miles from Colorado, living in his own super busy, isolated bubble would even hear/care/think about RVU ever.

Once you're at the GME level you will realize how small the world of medical academia really is. I have been to conferences where the lecturers from the opposite coast knew my program directors.

(US MD - google palm beach medical college).

(Sorry to continue the thread hijack) You keep bringing this up as if this "school" that doesn't even really exist somehow exonerates the actual existence of RVU and the selling out of my profession. I will make a bold prediction now - that school will never get off the ground as an LCME-accredited program.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I love it. A couple of snot-nosed residents with the clairvoyance to see into the minds of residency directors across the country.

Funny most of the residents at THE top residencies I KNOW are too busy to come on to SDN to pontificate to strangers.

I know it's been a few years since you took statistics but humor me and let me know that you still remember what a standard distribution looks like and how USMLE scores are set. Then of course you know by definition "stellar" scores are NOT a dime a dozen.

1) Snot-nosed is used to show inexperience (you know because young kids get a lot of colds). A medical student calling residents snot-nosed does not fit- especially since, you know, we have gone through it.

2) Wow. You know residents at top PROGRAMS. Can I touch you? I can also capitalize RANDOM words for effect. Also, there are a lot of residents from top programs who regularly post on SDN.

3) A 99 on step one is not 99th percentile. A 99 is a standard score which is ~235 or above (73rd percentile my year). So really 27% of people will get a 99- which is relatively common.

4) I agree, step 1 is important, probably the most important thing and really can open or close doors.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Once you're at the GME level you will realize how small the world of medical academia really is. I have been to conferences where the lecturers from the opposite coast knew my program directors.

Can you explain why they don't know what the COMLEX is out of then? Furthermore, I'm sure medical 'academia' is small, but this doesn't really say much about the subject matter discussed within this small circle. The lectures may have known your PDs because they read some academic paper they co-authored years ago or worked at an academic medical center with a 'doc who knew a doc.' This still doesn't mean RVU is on anybody's radar. If its of no interest to this small, inclusive circle (as you put it) then there's even less of a chance of this being discussed or reflecting on graduates of these programs.

(Sorry to continue the thread hijack) You keep bringing this up as if this "school" that doesn't even really exist somehow exonerates the actual existence of RVU and the selling out of my profession. I will make a bold prediction now - that school will never get off the ground as an LCME-accredited program.

It doesn't need to exist. It's the fracture that leads to the building collapse, the spark that ignites the dynamite, etc. Not only is the school listed at the preliminary review status at the LCME site (http://www.lcme.org/newschoolprocess.htm), but it's simply made a point - people realized that you CAN get away with for-profit medical school education on US soil, and we shouldn't expect this to go away anytime soon, especially because academia doesn't like it (the lawyers and MBAs run the overall programs, not the guys researching in the ivory towers). Even if Palm Beach falls flat on its face, it proved that it can be done. The system can be manipulated, and unless the LCME takes some huge stand or re-writes the rules, people will continue trying and I'd be shocked if something didn't squeak by eventually.

Furthermore, I do NOT use this as a justification for RVU's motives. I'm simply making a point that this issue isn't isolated, the game is likely changing, and these new programs have demonstrated that people can get away with it, so they will. Plain and simple. It's just business.

Additionally, as I've suggested many times before, if you see this as such a blatant insult to YOUR profession, why not be more proactive? Don't argue with me about it, take your complaints to the right people.

 

[DrWBD]

Can you explain why they don't know what the COMLEX is out of then?

Because the COMLEX, and osteopaths in general, just aren't on the radar of the elite ivory tower academics.

Furthermore, I'm sure medical 'academia' is small, but this doesn't really say much about the subject matter discussed within this small circle. The lectures may have known your PDs because they read some academic paper they co-authored years ago or worked at an academic medical center with a 'doc who knew a doc.' This still doesn't mean RVU is on anybody's radar. If its of no interest to this small, inclusive circle (as you put it) then there's even less of a chance of this being discussed or reflecting on graduates of these programs.

As I said, academia is smaller than you think. You can choose to disagree if you like.

people realized that you CAN get away with for-profit medical school education on US soil

No, people realized that you can get away with for-profit OSTEOPATHIC education in America. Not the same thing. The people in charge of my profession sold us out. The LCME won't do the same - they will protect the integrity of the MD degree, because that is their job. There are enough schools in the pipeline with more legitimacy than "Palm Beach". To say that this is the beginning of the end because they petitioned for approval is like saying you reached the top of Everest because you took a flight to Nepal. Ultimately, one of us will be proven correct.

Additionally, as I've suggested many times before, if you see this as such a blatant insult to YOUR profession, why not be more proactive? Don't argue with me about it, take your complaints to the right people.

Read Dr. George Mychaskiw's letters to the AOA, and the response they garner from the AOA establishment. I am active in many professional organizations but choose to not support the AOA. The best thing that one can do to oppose the AOA is to not support it financially, but as long as there are enough osteopaths who choose to do so, they will persevere.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Because the COMLEX, and osteopaths in general, just aren't on the radar of the elite ivory tower academics.

See ... now you've lost me. "Osteopaths" (aren't you one of those?), in general, aren't on the radar of these individuals, but we're supposed to believe that they are all well aware of RVU and will judge its graduates accordingly??? Which one is it - they are aware of osteopathic medicine, ergo RVU, and judge accordingly, or DOs/osteopathic medicine in general isn't on their radar.

As I said, academia is smaller than you think. You can choose to disagree if you like.

Read your previous statement - academia can be the smallest circle in the world, but if DOs/RVU aren't on their radar, it has absolutely no relevance whatsoever. As you previous stated, this seems to be the case.

No, people realized that you can get away with for-profit OSTEOPATHIC education in America. Not the same thing. The people in charge of my profession sold us out. The LCME won't do the same - they will protect the integrity of the MD degree, because that is their job. There are enough schools in the pipeline with more legitimacy than "Palm Beach". To say that this is the beginning of the end because they petitioned for approval is like saying you reached the top of Everest because you took a flight to Nepal. Ultimately, one of us will be proven correct.

First, I find your faith in the LCME pretty funny. I'll never understand why people demonize everything related to osteopathic medicine, the AOA, AACOM, etc, but can't shower enough praise on the LCME, ACGME, AMA, etc. It's like you're trying to get the cool kids to like you. Their job, just like everyone else in the universe, is business. I know people who become isolated in academics like to believe that everyone should perform for the greater good, profits are evil, etc, etc, but profits rule out in the end. Case and point - it costs $25,000 just to be considered for "Applicant Status" (where Palm Beach is at the moment) by the LCME. 25k. I conclude two things from this - 1. It doesn't cost 25k worth of man power to review a school for clearance. If they were really in this simply to protect the integrity of the degree, I'd think they would show schools like Palm Beach the door the second they popped up on the radar. 2. The investors behind Palm Beach believe in it enough to cough up 25k and try to get it pushed through. If I was sitting on that board, and knew that I could take an easier route - i.e. going through the AOA, just opening up a bunch of midlevel programs, etc, I wouldn't waste 25k. Regardless of whether or not this school fails (it reasonably could, especially with the current slowing of the ACGME's projected growth model), people will get smarter, tweak things, and try again.

Read Dr. George Mychaskiw's letters to the AOA, and the response they garner from the AOA establishment. I am active in many professional organizations but choose to not support the AOA. The best thing that one can do to oppose the AOA is to not support it financially, but as long as there are enough osteopaths who choose to do so, they will persevere.

I really don't want to break down your motives here ... it cheapens the discussion.

 

[DrWBD]

First, I find your faith in the LCME pretty funny. I'll never understand why people demonize everything related to osteopathic medicine, the AOA, AACOM, etc, but can't shower enough praise on the LCME, ACGME, AMA, etc. It's like you're trying to get the cool kids to like you.

That's a very cheap shot. I hold the views I do because, unlike you, I am a practicing physician in the real world. I have seen how things work on both sides. I am displeased the way my profession is acting and don't have qualms about saying so, frankly. I have always advised, by the way, that DOs should not join the AMA.

Furthermore, what are YOUR motivations? Based on your SDN posts it honestly wouldn't surprise me at all if one day it was discovered that you're really on the AOA payroll. It always seems to me that there is nothing the AOA does that you waste no time rationalizing away.

Case and point - it costs $25,000 just to be considered for "Applicant Status" (where Palm Beach is at the moment) by the LCME. 25k.

Case in point, $25,000 is really not that big of a deal, especially to a group of investors. If it were $250,000 I could maybe see your point.

If they were really in this simply to protect the integrity of the degree, I'd think they would show schools like Palm Beach the door the second they popped up on the radar. 2. The investors behind Palm Beach believe in it enough to cough up 25k and try to get it pushed through. If I was sitting on that board, and knew that I could take an easier route - i.e. going through the AOA, just opening up a bunch of midlevel programs, etc, I wouldn't waste 25k. Regardless of whether or not this school fails (it reasonably could, especially with the current slowing of the ACGME's projected growth model), people will get smarter, tweak things, and try again.

As I said, there is currently no LCME-accredited for profit school in existence. I believe that it will never come to pass, and for more than idealistic reasons. If you choose to disagree, so be it. Time will prove one of us correct.

If you wish to continue this discussion, please PM me. I don't wish to hijack this thread further.

 

[JaggerPlate]

That's a very cheap shot. I hold the views I do because, unlike you, I am a practicing physician in the real world. I have seen how things work on both sides. I am displeased the way my profession is acting and don't have qualms about saying so, frankly. I have always advised, by the way, that DOs should not join the AMA.

I apologize if I offended, it really wasn't my intent. Additionally, I can DEFINITELY understand why practicing physicians take issue with some of the AOA policies. However, it seems like, in many cases, for every ounce of hate people push onto the AOA, there is an equivalent ounce of praise bestowed upon whatever the MD equivalent may be. There are no problems showing discontent with the governing body, I just ask that this same level of scrutiny be applied fairly to all governing organizations - whether they represent MDs or DOs. If you've thoroughly analyzed both and really feel like the AOA is in it strictly for the money, don't care about the degree, AND that the LCME truthfully cares about nothing besides protecting the MD ... then you've researched and made a fair comparison in my book. Otherwise, I've always simply found the situation a bit ironic. Again, though ... it wasn't meant to be offensive, nor do I pretend to know more about the way medicine operates in the real world (compared to you).

Furthermore, what are YOUR motivations? Based on your SDN posts it honestly wouldn't surprise me at all if one day it was discovered that you're really on the AOA payroll. It always seems to me that there is nothing the AOA does that you waste no time rationalizing away.

God, I wish. Something like that would probably justify the amount of time I spend on this site

Furthermore, I feel like I'm fair with regard to the AOA. I've been displeased (and shared these concerns) with many of their policies, including the approval of RVU. However, as previously stated, most of my issues stem with people who automatically deem anything the AOA does, attempts to do, etc, as a money grubbing power grab, but then praises the MD equivalent as some being that is above similar practices. Call me a pragmatist, but I simply just don't see it this way.

Case in point, $25,000 is really not that big of a deal, especially to a group of investors. If it were $250,000 I could maybe see your point.

Agreed. However, my point was simply that there are far more ways to get around this fee/headache and still profit handsomely - open up a school with a ton of midlevel programs, go through the AOA, open a dental school (I didn't mean that as a cheap shot BTW), go off shore, etc. I simply find it hard to believe that the investors/guys putting this together, who I'm certain are a bunch of very business savvy individuals, don't think they have a good chance of pulling it off.

As I said, there is currently no LCME-accredited for profit school in existence. I believe that it will never come to pass, and for more than idealistic reasons. If you choose to disagree, so be it. Time will prove one of us correct.

The amount of time is the issue. Like I said before, even if Palm Beach doesn't pass ... I still think it proves that it can probably be done (with enough greasing) and people WILL continue trying.

If you wish to continue this discussion, please PM me. I don't wish to hijack this thread further.

DO'H ... I'm sorry. I honestly didn't see this until right now ... agreed. This will be my last statement regarding this matter (in this thread) and I'll PM you if anything else comes up!

 

[IvyHopeful20]

Just chiming in to mention that $25,000 is nothing. It would not surprise me to learn that LCME loses money on it.