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PhD/PsyD New Tax Bill Issues

Discussion in 'Psychology [Psy.D. / Ph.D.]' started by SallyStudent, Dec 16, 2017.

  1. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
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    Aside from maybe childhood nutrition, none of the information there is not available to people who seek it out, and pretty much anyone would have to seek that information out on their own volition. I sure did (no help from my own family there). So I still find your point to be vague and your estimation of what is needed for understanding what taking out a loan means to be inflated, at very best.
     
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  3. Psycycle

    Psycycle Psychologist, ABPP
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    If you can't understand the point that foreverbull made, then I really cannot explain this any further. If you need to believe this is a meritocracy, and you do not want to accept data that demonstrate that it is not, then I suppose you can go on thinking this loan problem is simple and just requires more personal responsibility on the part of borrowers.
     
  4. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
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    Who is oversimplifying (and also misinterpreting) now?

    I’ve said something quite different in my prior posts. Adding value statements like “meritocracy” and vaguely suggesting that some bachelor’s level folks lack the capability of understanding what taking out graduate school loans means (without defining what makes one capable aside from freely available information) seems pretty counterproductive if you ask me.
     
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  5. Psycycle

    Psycycle Psychologist, ABPP
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    Meritocracy is not a value statement.
    I am not oversimplifying because I offered a quoted explanation and yet you continue to reiterate that the information is freely out there, so why can some not access it? As for the concept of capable, that is not something I am arguing, particularly when we as professionals are often called upon to assess capacity. I am also not stating that some people are entirely unable to seek information. What I am saying is the picture is complicated; otherwise it would have long ago been resolved. Again, foreverbull explained the complexities involved quite clearly.

    "Education is one of the only viable ways to cross class lines, but there are several issues that disadvantage poor and/or minority students in the U.S., starting with things as simple as adequate childhood nutrition, knowledge of types of funding/scholarships/deadlines, exposure to different careers, to understanding how to be competitive in interviews...all the way up to knowing how much your graduate education will cost you beforehand by calculating all possible costs and calculating on your own how much your loans will capitalize as you sit in school unable to pay them off. People often forget how low SES or being an ethnic/racial minority can mean lack of information/support in how to succeed in all walks of white middle class Western educational settings/career settings, not just financial poverty for low SES folks, but poverty of information/resources for low SES folks and minorities. Of course this won't apply to everyone's experience, but are factors that are often overlooked in these discussions."
     
  6. Psycycle

    Psycycle Psychologist, ABPP
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    I might add that certain FSPS know this lack of understanding and actively exploit it. I sat in a roomful of people for a $22,500/year tuition (who knows what it is now) graduate program and was told by the program director that the loans are not problematic to pay off.
    That was a deliberate lie.
     
  7. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
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    First of all, are you arguing about class mobility? Then maybe go to SPF.

    If we’re talking about student loans, it is a complicated system, and making a decision to borrow large sums of money is something that anyone considering it should take seriously and seek information about, as many have. There is a lot of information available that conveys the message that if you don’t pay interest, you will start to pay interest on what you haven’t paid.
     
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  8. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
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    Who here has denied that? I sat in one of those too as an undergraduate. I don’t see anyone here saying predatory practices aren’t a problem.
     
  9. Psycycle

    Psycycle Psychologist, ABPP
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    Just because I stated that doesn't mean I was suggesting anyone here was denying that.
     
  10. Psycycle

    Psycycle Psychologist, ABPP
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    I already addressed the class mobility question. I am discussing it in the context of why people take out student loans.

    I get that there is information out there. I'm not saying that it isn't. I am saying that there are many mediating factors in its application, as indicated in the quote I have now pasted twice. Do you also think that people trying to lose weight just need to look up calorie counts and it's all fine?
     
  11. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things
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    They need to look up calorie counts and stop eating so many damn calories
     
  12. Psycycle

    Psycycle Psychologist, ABPP
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    well, you've solved the obesity problem!
     
  13. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things
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    Obesity is a personal problem, not a societal one
     
  14. DynamicDidactic

    DynamicDidactic Ass of Prof
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    This thread has definitely derailed. FWIW, I agree with Psycycle in the sense that there are numerous factors that lead people to attend unfunded, high-tuition doctoral programs. I think this board is a resources to help students but more needs to be done at the undergraduate level. I now teach my students in abnormal psych about different careers, allied mental health professions, and the PhD/PsyD situation. Additionally, I think there is a dearth of university-based, funded, high-caliber doctoral programs. It makes sense that someone would fill the vacuum.
     
  15. DynamicDidactic

    DynamicDidactic Ass of Prof
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    I disagree, so do my insurance rates and taxes.

    At this point, I should also add that I can't tell if you are being serious or not. Or just very narrow in your views of societal problems. Is mental health a personal problem?
     
  16. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things
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    Absolutely both should be, taxes shouldn’t be used to force one person to pay for another. And insurance should be allowed to exclude preexisting conditions because it’s absurd for me to pay the same health insurance rates as someone who is 600lbs
     
  17. MAClinician

    MAClinician Masters level clinician
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    That sounds like a great way to help students understand the need to explore different career options, including educational requirements and the other nuances to consider. I wish other programs/departments/universities would do this. I remember in undergrad, career services was general in nature and the "counselors" didn't know all the things needed to get into a doctorate program. They may not have even known the differences between masters programs. I had to rely on faculty mentors. But some departments may not provide that.
     
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  18. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
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    Not really sure how we got to obesity, but I’m fine not feeling like I am talking to a brick wall anymore. When things start getting insinuated that are simply not true, and when it isn’t entirely clear what the topic is, I’m good pulling a Larry David and saying “I think we’re done here.”

    DD - I also try to spend time discussing these issues with students when I get the chance to. It’s really important. I recall feeling the need to seek out a lot of information when I was at that stage, because faculty weren’t always proactive about sharing things.
     
  19. foreverbull

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    Did folks in here not take any sociology courses and/or learn about sociocultural factors and how they play into "personal" choices? Anyone?

    I stand by my assertion that informational resources/cultural capital and social capital MAY affect folks' choices and opportunities in life above and beyond SES and ethnicity. I'm not even saying it always does or means folks can't take responsibility for choices, just is another POSSIBLE factor that gets overlooked from folks who take it for granted that we all understand the white middle class mindset. Even if we aren't born white or middle class.

    You'd think I'd just claimed that the earth is flat based on the types of responses people have been offering. It's surprising to me how personal responsibility is emphasized to such a fault that there can't possibly be another way of seeing this in some folks' minds (why not both?). Social class/SES really seems to pull for some extreme opinions in here.

    Again, I'm not impressed with overly-reductionistic views, as they're often used to justify the status quo.
     
  20. smalltownpsych

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    I think this is an aspect of the fundamental attribution error. “I overcame my situation to get where I am and so the other should be able to do the same and if not then it is not their situation, but an inherent flaw in their makeup.” Of course, the predators will take advantage of this and especially if the government is handing out free money. Meanwhile, the truly wealthy are very motivated to keep the free money flowing because that’s how they get theirs. Just like pigs at a trough and us caring types are just grist for the mill. How’s that for mixed metaphors?
     
  21. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
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    Foreverbull, speaking for myself, I’m not denying that context matters. It certainly does. Some factors influence decisions that people make about their careers and their finances - in my view those factors might most directly influence how someone perceives their choices.

    At least for me, I’ve spent a nice portion of my adult life exploring (professionally) the influence of sociocultural context on certain behaviors - from a clinical and academic standpoint. While someone like you, or me, or others on this forum might be pretty used to applying these notions to conceptualize behavior and can accept that there is a contextual backdrop as well as personal responsibility involved in decision-making, some of the reaction you see might reflect a couple of things.

    1) A lot of people invoke these contextual issues in an attempt to deny personal responsibility. Again, while many of us can understand that it is not “binary” from a conceptual standpoint - functionally I have seen it play out that way in how people view decisions that they have made. The net result of this binary way of thinking is blame/external locus of control.
    2) So in the same way that you find it frustrating that some people on the forum seem to have a binary view of this issue (bootstraps and what-not), I admit that I find it quite frustrating myself when people invoke sociopolitical context at the individual level to avoid taking responsibility. I’ve seen this happen quite frequently with students and with clients, and I spend a great deal of time considering context in my professional settings. Most of the time, I am not hearing someone say “I had it rough and didn’t really have a full understanding of my options, but now I do and want to get the message out to people who are in the position I was.” I am hearing “I had it rough and no one explained everything to me well enough, so I don’t think I should have to pay this much.” Perhaps some others also see it play out this way too IRL?
    3) When these contextual terms are invoked in the context :) of a political tax bill and associated entitlement programs for student loans, the net arguments also seem to behave in a very binary way. It isn’t surprising to me given the current political climate.

    foreverbull, another poster kept quoting a statement that you made highlighting things like lower SES folks having a “poverty of information.” This quote of yours was repeatedly presented as fact, even though it seems to reflect your opinion or a theoretical framework. I disputed that opinion/theory with my own thoughts/opinion about how now, more than ever, there really isn’t a poverty of information (or access to it) out there, and how a lot of folks (regardless of SES background) have to make an effort to educate themselves using that information when making these decisions.

    To come in and present one opinion as fact and then to make insinuations that smack of accusations of power and privilege really is not a constructive way to communicate (IMHO). IMO this type of communication impedes progress in making headway towards getting a larger proportion of the population to want to consider context and support compromising solutions to actual political issues. Someone like me might not want to subsidize really bad loan decisions, but would be interested in preventing really bad loan decisions and would be open to listening to new ideas about how to do this.

    So foreverbull, this is me agreeing with you that socioeconomic/cultural context plays a role in how people perceive their options when considering student loans. But in my opinion, personal responsibility is still the most important factor when it comes to this specific issue.
     
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  22. Psycycle

    Psycycle Psychologist, ABPP
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    Of course, you noted that I repeatedly stated that this issue is not binary. Never did I say that people have no personal responsibility in their choices. My point was merely that this is not the whole picture, and on this forum it is often presented as if it is.
    In real life, I have seen it play out most often as a lot of internalized, non-constructive self-blame. (vs. self-responsibility.) Two terms that were quite conflated on this thread. Self-blame seems to lead, in my clinical experience, to more of a sense of helplessness. I am always working to help people establish an internal locus of control on the aspects of life about which they can have an internal locus of control.
    My dissertation was on the topic of how people communicate and how they access information. There is a very big gap between availability of information and people's context for understanding it. I repeatedly quoted foreverbull because you stated that my position was vague, so I offered you the standpoint from which I am expressing my views. The "poverty of information" does not refer to books or an internet search necessarily. It's the knowledge that is passed down from people who had money to work with, so even had the opportunity to think about budgeting or choices in the matter of money. As for power and privilege, we've all got some of it here and it behooves us to recognize that, use it wisely, and try to understand that others' experiences might be vastly different than our own.
    I am not stating that the answer to this is subsidizing others' large student loan debts; I think the answer is more systemic classroom and adviser discussion of money. We should be making financial education a required high school and then college course.
    As for myself, I took out more loans than I should have and I am fortunate to have a job that assists in paying them off. While I didn't paralyze myself with debt, considering how it would affect me had I not been so fortunate has made me a vocal opponent of taking on too much debt for a psychology degree, and I frequently post here in the hope that people will find the forum and read those posts.
     
  23. foreverbull

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    @Pragma I hear what you are saying, and I appreciate your response. I simply disagree. None of us who have been positing alternative perspectives denied any personal responsibility.
    I'll just reiterate that I never once suggested we shouldn't take personal responsibility, ever, but that there are overlooked possible factors that play into choices/opportunities/knowledge that are more subtle. I did not state this as fact or absolutes; I was simply noting that there are other perspectives, and shared a sociological perspective. Social and cultural capital are sociology terms, and I do think that they can apply to both a community of resources (social capital) and actual cultural knowledge/knowledge of how to navigate the system in the dominant, middle class culture (cultural capital) when we go to college and navigate the job world.

    This is not something I'm going to convince you or anyone else of if you don't believe in it in the first place or do not think it applies in any of the dialogue around student loans, and many of you have made up your minds that there's no other way to see it.

    I also find it frustrating when people avoid personal responsibility, and of course, we do have some clients who veer to that side from time to time. But it's not an either/or situation all of the time. Empowering clients personally to take control of what they can control is very important, as is challenging the systems that keep folks from experiencing fairness and equality in this country, because there are subtle and not-so-subtle systems in place that do so.

    This is clearly a hot topic for folks. As folks continue to assert only black-and-white views, some of us will continue to challenge it from being the only perspective. Especially when people start throwing out judgments and knee-jerk reactions (not necessarily in this conversation, but others).
     
    #72 foreverbull, Dec 19, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
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  24. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    I don't see Pragma as asserting black and white views, along with (many) other people. Many of us will definitely acknowledge that many factors come into play. The disagreement comes from how much of the beta weight we're assigning to each variable. I think where people like Pragma and I get frustrated is that when we do talk about fiscal responsibility, it is summarily dismissed as a non-factor, and societal factors are brought to the forefront as the most important issue(s). Additionally, there are many arguments that get thrown out in the "societal issues" side that are mere talking points that no one addresses in any amount of depth, making it hard to see an argument for which no one has supplied any actual substance.
     
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  25. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
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    @foreverbull - seeing the student loan situation from multiple perspectives is certainly one thing to consider. I'm not certain that I see social/cultural capital playing the role that you seem to think it plays when deciding to make a huge financial decision, but I'm comfortable with disagreeing about that.

    What I am curious about is the implications - and I think a lot of folks here are focused on that. Let's say for a moment that everyone agreed with you about social and cultural capital playing a more significant role in student loan financial decision-making - and that at some level that diminishes (but doesn't eliminate) personal responsibility. What are the implications of that? This is where the extent to which you consider personal responsibility to be important - and how it interacts with the capital you are discussing - is going to matter to people. Do you think that this combination of factors justifies loan forgiveness or other government subsidies? If so, how would you justify them for some people and not for others? How would you operationalize it?

    Someone like me would acknowledge the context, but still weights personal responsibility above other factors and would be against any subsidy. That's why, as I stated earlier in the thread, my viewpoint is that we should a) make the mandated education process about taking out loans even more specific for potential borrowers, b) to eliminate/litigate predatory programs and practices, and c) to make loans dischargeable in bankruptcy so that risk is shared and people can't take out ridiculous money for financially unsustainable career pathways.
     
  26. foreverbull

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    I never saw any discussion that included "many factors may come into play AND personal responsibility is important." The latter was implied and emphasized. The OP basically just got criticized for relying on PSLF, and when Psycycle pointed out that the student loan issue gets oversimplified at times, folks criticized Psycycle, focused on the wording and then nitpicked and attacked the other perspectives. It would have been great if you'd offered this when Psycycle spoke up initially!

    As far as the weight we give to personal and cultural/social factors, this is where the true differences lie in opinion, and it is what it is. We disagree.

    "Summarily dismissed as a non-factor" is exactly how I feel sociocultural issues get treated in here, and looking back at the discussion, I'm just wondering where you think "personal responsibility" was dismissed in this thread. When did folks say "personal responsibility doesn't apply"? It sounds like it may have been more of a reaction to the OP, who was concerned about PSLF ending. I wasn't defending nor criticizing the OP in my statements, nor was Psycycle.

    Again, Psycycle simply suggested that folks oversimplify the issue at times, and was criticized. Where did any of us say personal responsibility isn't important? I simply offered another perspective that may affect the issue, again, I'm not even positing or asserting here. I'm using tentative language and folks still thought I was being extreme somehow.

    No one on the "personal responsibility" side offered anything of substance in their criticisms. I'm not sure why the burden of "depth" rests only on only side to provide it.

    I honestly just don't understand why things go to the extreme so quickly and so often when student loans are involved. I don't see anywhere where I encouraged that in this thread.
     
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  27. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    But, they did. The terms of a loan are available to everyone. The paperwork has to have the information. As far as knowledge of median salaries, that is widely available as well. As far as understanding compound interest. This is a very simple financial concept that anyone with a college degree should be able to understand. The substance offered is that everyone has access, quite easily, to the information needed to make an informed decision regarding a return on investment of education. They either choose no to do so, or they do so and decide that the ROI is acceptable to them anyway. This is the substance of that argument. We never placed the "burden" on one side. We presented the facts of the matter on the personal responsibility side and received nothing in turn.
     
  28. foreverbull

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    Would you care to address the rest of what I spoke to, or divert focus to just this ONE line that was a minor point in my overall argument? Please be respectful and take the time to do so.

    And here's my response: folks often don't know exactly how many loans to take out to survive for the year. That's actually a little difficult to predict when you are just out of high school, but even at the graduate level, because you would have to account for every possible expense throughout a 12-month period. Couple that with estimating the unsubsidized interest that will compound with loans you already have and take out at the beginning of the semester, and then the interest on separate loans that you take out for the spring and summer. Is this information really that "easily available?" Folks estimate things, and take out what they think will be enough, but the default is often the max amount, and it is difficult to assess exactly what you need to get by but without taking too much out. Broadly speaking, we all know we have to pay loans back when we get out of school, and we see the baseline interest percentage and can access the median info of careers, sure. But for some folks who come from a complete lack of money to suddenly having access to borrowed money, it can get more complicated.

    As I've said prior, I gave loan money to a parent who needed financial support desperately. Poor financial choices on my part, right!? I also had to buy a vehicle with loan money because my old car was on its last legs and finally died, and I wasn't making enough money to buy one, yet needed it right away. I didn't have any family or friends who could connect me to someone who get me a good deal/or loan/give me a car for free (lack of social capital). Another bad decision! When I was younger, I was often price-gouged for car repair services because I was a young adult woman who knew very little about cars and wasn't initially aware they were screwing me (again, lack of cultural capital). These costly repairs also came from loans. I also didn't apply to as many scholarships in undergrad as I should have because I wasn't even aware of their existence (lack of cultural capital) and was attending a large public university where the average student gets lost in the system (lack of social capital). In grad school, I couldn't afford to travel to internship interviews at all to keep from spending more loan money, while a colleague with more funds flew to every site and got to meet with folks in person (he and I applied to many similar sites), which one could argue offers somewhat of an advantage. As a young adult I didn't know how to dress well for interviews (what I wore was dressy but not businesswear), something that I wasn't aware of until much much later (lack of cultural capital). I also couldn't afford a business suit for my grad school interviews (and wasn't aware of how dressy I needed to be--cultural capital of white middle class dress standards), which almost cost me a doctoral position and was discussed amongst the selection committee when considering whether I should be offered a position. My program funded a large portion of tuition, but not all, and I lived in a large metro area, had a roommate, lived simply, had no health insurance, and had a stipend that didn't cover more than bills and rent.

    Later, I assumed I could start paying off my loans during postdoc, but quickly realized I couldn't afford to at all. Despite my income only covering rent and nothing more, my loan servicer said I didn't even qualify for financial hardship deferment, only forbearance. Thus, interest compounded for over a year while I couldn't afford to pay them or even the interest alone. Is this fair? I would argue no, but it was my choice to take out loans in the first place right? "Bad decisions" again?

    In my experience, you can see how some "bad decisions" can be survival-based and/or lack of knowledge, which is why I think there are more factors at play when we talk about student loans than just entitled people making bad decisions and expecting others to pay. I am paying for those decisions and "taking responsibility," but I also wonder why we have a system where lack of money/lower SES and few resources leads to further disadvantage in different situations (some mentioned here relating to cultural capital/social capital). I will be strapped with debt for many years, while my colleagues with more cultural capital and financial resources from the start will buy houses (already have), etc. I'd love to be certified/trained in different specialities that would set me apart more from my peers, but simply can't afford to as a result.

    And I'm taking responsibility, but I think that the system needs to change, from public education to higher education costs themselves. I'm not even a sob story..I'm a success story, I'd say, and I'm sure there are more folks out there who are racial/ethnic minorities who came from poverty and face even more challenges due to lack of social/cultural capital AND lack of resources. I think we can do better.
     
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  29. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
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    A lot of us can say that we had a lot of similar experiences - I know some of the things on this list you have provided were also my own experience (eerily similar). That's where I think you might be overestimating how much "capital" there is out there, as many of us struggle with things like helping parents in financial trouble, transportation problems, navigating large public universities, being unable to afford interviews and professional clothing as graduate students, etc. etc...which might be why some people don't view having to navigate these problems as out of the purview of life in general or more specifically a part of being in this profession. I think people are sympathetic/empathetic to these types of issues, but when they get politicized and grouped such that you pretend some groups don't have to deal with these problems, then it no longer reflects the day-to-day reality that many people face.

    When you say at the end of your post that "Our nation can do better" - what do you mean?
     
  30. foreverbull

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    Ha, I changed it to "we" but I meant that we as a country can work harder to even the playing field for all folks of all backgrounds. I do think higher education should be free, for profit colleges done away with unless they cover full tuition, etc., but we also should address the cultural/social capital issue from the start at the community level so that folks of lower SES/minorities aren't disadvantaged come time to apply. Building stronger community supports for disadvantaged folks, stronger career counseling at the high school level and more resources devoted to it. More funding in K-12 for these types of endeavors, etc. Stop unequal education in urban schools vs. suburban and restructure how they are funded locally.

    Again, I'm personally responsible for my loans in general, but I think education loans should be interest-free while in school and during postdoc years when we are completely unable to pay it back. It's for our education, not buying a house! I also think housing and cost of living issues should be addressed better at the university-level when it comes to stipends. Etc....lots of suggestions and thoughts about micro and macro level things. I'd love to hear others' thoughts about other interventions, too.
     
  31. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    We have responded to points. The fact is that a fairly sizable portion of people make it through grad school with zero debt, much more with <50k in debt. We can talk about anecdotes all we want, how many of these people with zero debt came from below middle class households all we want, doesn't change the fact that it is done, quite frequently by many people in similar situations.

    So sure, let's change the nebulous cultural/capital issue in the community, but let's do it with well thought out plans, with a thought about the endgame behind it. Not some ill-conceived effort that just serves to promote diploma mills subsidized by taxpayer money better spent elsewhere.
     
  32. Jon Snow

    Jon Snow Senior Member
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    Interesting thread.

    I've argued previously that the Vail model programs almost uniformly are exploitative. I've argued that professors that work for them are complicit and therefore morally responsible for said exploitation. Why? Because young people, especially from disadvantaged backgrounds, but, yes, even white middle to upper-middle class young people often have a poor understanding of money and aren't equipped to make a 250K decision (could be much more accounting for interest/inflation and opportunity cost). What I've previously argued is that the freely available loan money is a big part of the problem. The lack of dischargeability in bankruptcy is a big problem. The issue to me is that there is no incentive to do a credit risk evaluation. Lenders and schools should be on the hook for consistently making bad loans and the economic impact of that. Programs that cause high default rates should be shut down. Also, as a field, I feel we have a responsibility to evaluate quality of life impacts to our future professionals. We should not allow programs that routinely result in 6 figure debt to be accredited. This should be something emphasized in our counseling of students going into or considering grad school and programs that do result in this kind of debt should be considered and labeled as predatory.

    That said, there are a lot of stupid people that have no business getting doctorates that are getting doctorates because of these sorts of programs. There are also a lot of people that are perfectly willing to off-load the expense of going to graduate school on others at their convenience. Personal responsibility matters.
     
    #81 Jon Snow, Dec 19, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2017
  33. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty
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    I wish it were that easy. For a long time I was hard-line about personal accountability and responsibility as it relates to attaining a job, paying for insurance, etc. It’s not as simple as “don’t be 600lb” as there are cultural and societal factors that influence individuals. I still have hope that we can improve in these areas, but only blaming the individual is ignoring part of the problem.
     
  34. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    Yeah, to lump all preexisting conditions into one category is just idiotic and incredibly simple-minded. "You developed MS? Too bad sucker, you should have "chosen" to not have a disorder for which we aren't sure the cause! Enjoy those flareups, taker!"
     
  35. Therapist4Chnge

    Therapist4Chnge Neuropsych Ninja Faculty
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    Yes and no. I wish basic money management was taught in high school, finance classes in undergrad, and business classes in grad school.

    Complicating the picture is poor financial understanding being multiplied by having a preferred outcome in mind and someone more than happy to provide a loan. In many instances it is predatory because of the context. Looking at the sub-prime mortgage crisis is a pretty good comparison. There are multiple scenes in “The Big Short” that could have been students abs student loans instead of ppl seeking to buy a house and signing for a mortgage.

    I wish we could just ban all For-Profit businesses (I won’t call them schools) and severely limit FSPS to students they can place into APA-acred sites and penalize for poor outcomes like licensure rate, EPPP pass rate, etc.
     
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  36. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    I get that we don't teach finance as a requirement at any point in schooling, but, and a big but, people with a college degree should 100% be able to understand the concept of interest and compound interest. It's a fairly basic mathematical concept compared to most of the stats we're all taught.

    Yes, let's definitely hold for-profits accountable as part of the problem, but I still think people need to hold themselves accountable as a huge part of that problem as well.
     
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  37. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things
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    I think blame is irrelevant. The only thing that really matters is if someone expects that I pay for them....and nope, not getting my approval
     
  38. Psycycle

    Psycycle Psychologist, ABPP
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    This well illustrates the different types of capital that can come into play in this situation. As psychologists, we should recognize these complexities.
     
  39. DynamicDidactic

    DynamicDidactic Ass of Prof
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    I am not in complete disagreement with you. As a relatively young and healthy male, I find it ludicrous that I must pay higher insurance rates to supplement the costs of others (I am speaking in generalities and not about the wasted costs in the current managed care system). However, the realities of the world, as I have experienced through anecdotal or empirical evidence, tell me differently. Its hard to fight reality after a while. Others have much greater willfulness to maintain support for an ideology that has no practical supporting evidence or a historical precedence.

    I simply ask you, would you not pay a single cent extra a month to increase the chances that others may live longer and better? If the answer is no, then hats off to you because I am much too weak-willed for that. However, if you have even slightest inclining that perhaps society is better off if we take care of one each other, I implore you to look for dis-confirming evidence to your current beliefs.
     
  40. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things
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    I am all for voluntarily helping causes and people that I choose to, I vehemently oppose the notion that someone else gets to decide that I have to spend even that single cent on others.

    It’s not theirs to decide
     
  41. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    We get it, dude. You read Atlas Shrugged once and it made you feel something special down in your nethers. We all had that Objectivist phase. Then we turned 19 and started our sophomore years of college and got over it. You'll get there. Someday.
     
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  42. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things
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    Freedom is good, try coming back
     
  43. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    Unimaginative, myopic philosophical systems, that have zero understanding of human behavior are bad. Luckily, no one is really foolish enough to try and implement Randian Libertarianism on a national scale, so we'll never have to live through what would be a shortly lived, short-sighted experiment.
     
  44. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things
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    Except that the us was largely just that when we started......
     
  45. WisNeuro

    WisNeuro Board Certified Neuropsychologist
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    Except when we weren't. Unless things like slavery, tariffs, the taking of land from native people, etc, all things very un-libertarian somehow don't get taken account. Libertarianism has never worked on a large scale. And for very good reason. It's as untenable and as silly as Communism.
     
  46. psych.meout

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    Actually, it didn't work, which is why we scrapped the Articles of Confederation and went with the Constitution instead.

    Also, maybe try reading the works of the Founders who don't agree with your beliefs. You know, minor players like Alexander Hamilton.
     
  47. psych.meout

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    Weren't you the one who earlier wrote that you used some of student loans to bail out your financially ailing parent?
     
  48. foreverbull

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    Yes, out of necessity, but the difference between student loans and other loans is that on every other loan you start paying them back immediately and can pay back the interest faster so it won't accrue as quickly. Not so with student loans, in which it may be several years before you can afford to start to pay them back at all. During this time, interest has accrued while you're helpless to pay it back, which is unique and loanholders make a killing off this situation that doesn't happen anywhere else.

    The overall purpose of student loans is education/survival (living while you're in school), hence why I think education loans shouldn't accrue interest, but more broadly, I'd support free education overall for those who are driven and capable.
     
  49. psych.meout

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    This is by far the best post in this thread, but I want to emphasize the latter part about stupid and selfish people. Of course there are socioeconomic issues of financial literacy, inequality, etc., but let's not kid ourselves that all the people who take out >$100K for doctorates in clinical psychology are victims and that this is entirely a social justice issue. Sure, many people fall into this category, but don't act like that this indebted population is some homogeneous monolith. There are plenty of people like the OP of this thread who knew damn well the financial ramifications of their decisions, but were banking on other people paying it off for them. They decided that delayed gratification wasn't for them and they shouldn't have to substantially change their lives in pursuit of a doctorate to make them competitive for funded programs.

    I'm all in favor of social policies and structural changes to help underrepresented and disenfranchised groups, but I'm not sure that bailing out doctoral students and grads who make poor financial decisions is the best use of our limited time and resources.
     
  50. psych.meout

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    Ok, but that's the education/survival of the grad student, not their parents. Doesn't this seem like an abuse of the system if your loans are going to get forgiven by PSLF or some other program.

    I'm intrigued by the notion of "free education overall for those who are driven and capable," but it's a lot more complicated than you let on. How do we operationalize and measure "driven and capable?" Criteria that's too loose leads to the supply of higher education being outstripped by demand from potential students and too tight leads to a shortage of qualified students and many of the same issues of inequality and static class mobility.

    Regardless of this philosophical exercise, in clinical psychology, there already is a free model, i.e., fully-funded programs. The problem is that many people won't do what's necessary to make them qualified for these programs, e.g., OP who could not "quit her life."
     
  51. Pragma

    Pragma Neuropsychologist
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    I’d like to hear from @SallyStudent given where this discussion has gone.
     

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