• SDN Site Updates

    Hey everyone! The site will be down for approximately 2 hours on Thursday, August 5th for site updates.

cool_vkb

Member
10+ Year Member
Jun 24, 2006
1,583
3
Status (Visible)
  1. Podiatry Student
I have been reading in Indian newspapers and Websites about a new law in UK that is affecting Foreign Medicos in UK. I heard most of the new foreign medicos have been denied visa extensions and have been asked to leave from UK and the others are planning to file a lawsuit.

Do you guys think now we are going to have a huge influx of those MDs also in USA? There by increasing the Residency competition more?

And iam not able to decide which side is right. Do you guys think UK health dept is right in giving preference to their local grads because now they have more than enough local MDs in UK. i mean any country in the world has to give preference to local population over outside population.Even the Asian countries (from where the majority of foreign MDs are) themselves give huge preferences to local population over others. on the other hand its very bad for these Non-EU MDs.They left their homelands and are now left in middle of nowhere because of the sudden passing of this law. They have to go back to their homeland after struggling so hard in UK.

Its very tragic for these MDs and at the same time i dont know if one can blame to UK Govt for thinking the welfare of their local (and EU) MDs.
 

leorl

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jan 2, 2001
5,561
17
messymedic.blogspot.com
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Ireland is a little bit the same way now. There's a job struggle and the non-EUs are the first to get shafted. Very worrying for this year's graduating class, as this is the first time the problem has arisen in Ireland. Anyway, you are right...ultimately it makes sense for each country to job protect. However, the respective governments and even the colleges themselves have screwed up majorly to let the problem get this bad. It really shows a lack of foresight which is quite appalling, even for politicians.

I wouldn't forsee an immediate influx of doctors flocking to the US, mainly because there isn't enough time to take all the USMLE steps immediately. However, maybe 2-3 years down the line, there could be a rise.
 

qtpie055

Member
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Mar 26, 2005
95
0
Status (Visible)
Oi, well there goes my hope of eventually practicing in the UK! Yea, it seems like the UK underestimated everything. With the shortage of physicians in the past, they tried to up their #s with such degrees as the accelerated grad programs. Plus since they are part of the EU, there's just a huge influx of medics heading to the UK to work. I'm thinking there probably will be a slight increase in foreign medics to the US. Which will probably be a good thing since the baby boomer generation medics will be retiring soon?? Do you think the UK will ever let non-EU medics work there?
 
About the Ads

leorl

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jan 2, 2001
5,561
17
messymedic.blogspot.com
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Probably not in awhile - it's economics. More docs will be let in when there's more demand. And it's going to take a while for the UK and other countries in similar positions to clear their mess. Working within the EU as well, and in lieu of the whole EU's attempt to decrease brain drain, I wouldn't see non-EU's chances rising anytime soon.
 

WaZoBia

Senior Member
15+ Year Member
Dec 22, 2001
269
0
Status (Visible)
Oi, well there goes my hope of eventually practicing in the UK! Yea, it seems like the UK underestimated everything. With the shortage of physicians in the past, they tried to up their #s with such degrees as the accelerated grad programs. Plus since they are part of the EU, there's just a huge influx of medics heading to the UK to work. I'm thinking there probably will be a slight increase in foreign medics to the US. Which will probably be a good thing since the baby boomer generation medics will be retiring soon?? Do you think the UK will ever let non-EU medics work there?

i think you still have a shot, you can join a research program (which'll give you a reason to stay) while you pass the PLAB and wait for a position. All the best.
 

FunkyR

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Mar 6, 2007
36
0
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
I have been reading in Indian newspapers and Websites about a new law in UK that is affecting Foreign Medicos in UK. I heard most of the new foreign medicos have been denied visa extensions and have been asked to leave from UK and the others are planning to file a lawsuit.

Do you guys think now we are going to have a huge influx of those MDs also in USA? There by increasing the Residency competition more?

And iam not able to decide which side is right. Do you guys think UK health dept is right in giving preference to their local grads because now they have more than enough local MDs in UK. i mean any country in the world has to give preference to local population over outside population.Even the Asian countries (from where the majority of foreign MDs are) themselves give huge preferences to local population over others. on the other hand its very bad for these Non-EU MDs.They left their homelands and are now left in middle of nowhere because of the sudden passing of this law. They have to go back to their homeland after struggling so hard in UK.

Its very tragic for these MDs and at the same time i dont know if one can blame to UK Govt for thinking the welfare of their local (and EU) MDs.

Actually the rules changed last year. To comply with EU agreements UK hospitals CANNOT hire a non local or non EU medical graduate in a training position over a foreign trained medical graduate from outside the UK/EU UNLESS they can prove that there are no UK/EU applicants to fill the job.

This means that the EU trained doctor (not going to name any specific EU country) that may not speak fluent English has precedence over say an Australia or Canadian doctor.

This has stuffed up alot of people planning to do fellowship years in the UK as most fellowship positions are still accredited training positions in their respective colleges and therefore fall under the same law as well as those currently in training positions.
 

leorl

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jan 2, 2001
5,561
17
messymedic.blogspot.com
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
it's causing big problems. and in Ireland too. And it gets hairy, too. For instance how can you say that someone with fluent English isn't actually more qualified than the EU person. If all things were equal, the EU person would have to be taken. However, if the hiring board can prove that they cannot find a suitable EU candidate (with equal scores) and language fluency as a qualifying condition, then they could actually take the non-EU person with better english. It gets really fuzzy.

On one hand, it's necessary to job-protect. But on the other hand, they may be putting up with less competent doctors just for the sake of protecting their own. There's so many issues with this, it makes me really angry just thinking about it.
 

de-malady

New Member
10+ Year Member
Nov 24, 2006
4
0
Status (Visible)
  1. Medical Student
does all this mean that -u k- have been selfish..
when in need they hired medics from all over; now seems sufficient so they gave an abrupt halt to the -p l a b- in many countries.. tough luck to those like me who always dreamt of -p l a b- over -u s m l e-..:scared:
 

qtpie055

Member
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Mar 26, 2005
95
0
Status (Visible)
some recent articles:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6436549.stm

right now, i actually feel bad for UK medics. Seems like the NHS really messed up. for now, i'm just going to train here in the US and maybe one day...in the next decade, the NHS will solve their problem and let non-EU medics in.
 

pattycanuck

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Aug 16, 2006
261
0
YGK
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
When most people came over to the UK from another non-EU country to practice for whatever reason, was there a written guarantee that they would be offered permanent residency or citizenship on working in the UK?

Also, was there anything in the signing of their visa documentation (ie the fine print) on entry to the UK indicating that by entering the UK that, by no means it was a "right" to work and stay there?

I gather that if they have received citizenship by the time this law was enforced, for those it is a non-issue.
 

f_w

1K Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Jan 30, 2005
2,900
7
Status (Visible)
When most people came over to the UK from another non-EU country to practice for whatever reason, was there a written guarantee that they would be offered permanent residency or citizenship on working in the UK?

No.

Also, was there anything in the signing of their visa documentation (ie the fine print) on entry to the UK indicating that by entering the UK that, by no means it was a "right" to work and stay there?

For any other type of job, employers had to proove that there was no UK or EU citizen available to fill the position. Only medicine had an exemption which was based on the assumption that there was a shortage of docs. The moment that shortage was relieved, the exemption was withdrawn (actually, the 'moment' was about 3 years later).

As for the 'preference' of EU citizen over non-citizens. It is a fundamental principle of the earlier EU contracts that the 'labor pool' has to be able to move around freely and that no country is allowed to put up barriers against workers from other EU countries. And this rules out special 'equivalency exams' or language tests for 'workers' moving to other countries. While this might seem odd in medicine, you have to see it in the context of the EU as a whole.

If you want to see truly protectionist practices at work, go to Canada.
 

omniatlas

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jun 2, 2001
538
1
Brisbane, Australia
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
Whats absurd is the amount of money the UK government is investing in their medical students (including the foreign ones) and then kicking them out after they've finished their education.

I don't have the numbers, but I'm sure it totals to more than a million pounds per medic.
 

cool_vkb

Member
10+ Year Member
Jun 24, 2006
1,583
3
Status (Visible)
  1. Podiatry Student
Whats absurd is the amount of money the UK government is investing in their medical students (including the foreign ones) and then kicking them out after they've finished their education.

I don't have the numbers, but I'm sure it totals to more than a million pounds per medic.

Foreign students never get any financial aid in UK:( . They have to take big big loans and come to study. So in away, UK is making profit. They took all their money in form of fees for Medical College and now they are not even allowing them to practice. :(

If UK would have said earlier only that they will not allow Non-EU UK-Med school grads to practice or give them least preference. then do you really think people wud have gone to UK in huge numbers to study medicine.No way!

I think, Foreign students shud do a boycott of UK. when British Univeristies will lose their Foreign Student clientale, iam sure they will pressurize UK govt to amend laws.:thumbup:
 

leorl

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jan 2, 2001
5,561
17
messymedic.blogspot.com
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Yes, that's the truly angering part of the thing - the timing of it. When they announced it, it was too late for the final year students to make backup plans and everyone has had to go scrambling for jobs in the midst of trying to study for their final year exams. Had they said even one year ago, people would have at least done their other exams (ie. home exams) in time. Not to mention that foreign money has paid for native education. The same thing has happened in Ireland, and the policies/deals/whatever reek of dishonesty. I think things are more clear cut in the UK, but in Ireland there are all sorts of wheeling and dealing behind the scenes with no clear answers to any question.

I would actually echo the above poster. I've loved my time spent overseas, but the dishonesty (affecting your marks) and bureacracy involved, much of which is not made clear or open to students, would be the factor that would not make me recommend going to Ireland or the UK to study abroad.

I wouldn't have liked staying home in the US, but at least testing is objective and performance clearly evaluated through clear cut examinations. And you don't come up against deceitful bureacracy.

Unfortunately, because people are desperate to get into medical education, a boycott will never happen. They'll always take advantage of those people who could not get into school at home or who don't want to be schooled at home, and those who can pay for it. But we should actually change the name of the thread to STAY AWAY FROM THE UK AND IRISH SCHOOLS.

Rant over.
 

f_w

1K Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Jan 30, 2005
2,900
7
Status (Visible)
If UK would have said earlier only that they will not allow Non-EU UK-Med school grads to practice or give them least preference. then do you really think people wud have gone to UK in huge numbers to study medicine.No way!

Practicing in the UK without EU citizenship was allways an exemption granted to the national health service based on the fact that there was a physician shortage. Anyone who invested money into their medical education in the UK had to be aware of that.

Ask someone who studied lets say accounting whether he was allowed to stay afterwards without the company getting approval by the home office.
 

cool_vkb

Member
10+ Year Member
Jun 24, 2006
1,583
3
Status (Visible)
  1. Podiatry Student
Practicing in the UK without EU citizenship was allways and exemption granted to the national health service based on the fact that there was a physician shortage. Anyone who invested money into their medical education in the UK had to be aware of that.

Ask someone who studied lets say accounting whether he was allowed to stay afterwards without the company getting approval by the home office.

Well atleast one good thing of doing UK medical school is that they can now think of going to Australia. i heard commonwealth countries have some kind of pact, so UK graduated Med school students will be able to practice in Aus very easily compared to someone who went to Med school in Carribean or asia. Thats what i heard. Please correct me if iam wrong.
 

khl31

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Jan 23, 2007
32
0
Status (Visible)
  1. Medical Student
Practicing in the UK without EU citizenship was allways and exemption granted to the national health service based on the fact that there was a physician shortage. Anyone who invested money into their medical education in the UK had to be aware of that.

Ask someone who studied lets say accounting whether he was allowed to stay afterwards without the company getting approval by the home office.

i don't think the current grouse is with protectionist policies. most people who are affected by this change understand the desire to protect your own citizen's, and, dare i venture, even empathize with that.

i believe the displeasure arises from the manner in which international doctors and students have been informed of the change. basically, within a very short period of months, we were told to bugger off elsewhere. please understand, this is a 180 degree change from previously, when foreign doctors were encouraged, and even recruited into the NHS. this sudden change has left many stranded, since no one had anticipated this and had been planning extended stays in the UK and the NHS, and thus did not have the forewarning or time to prepare a backup plan.

if the government had given 12-18 months' notice, i'm sure there would have been some grumbling, but no widespread anger as that would have been fair warning of impending change, unlike the current situation where a lightning bolt struck out of blue skies.
 

omniatlas

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jun 2, 2001
538
1
Brisbane, Australia
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
Heres an article from the Telegraph that came out a few days ago about the fustrations UK medics are going through.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/02/nhs02.xml

There was even a case of surgeons refusing to interview because of the whole MTAS mess:

"The ST3 Interview Panel for General Surgery in the West Midlands have unanimously come to the conclusion that the MTAS procedure for recruitment to ST3 in General Surgery, has not been implemented according to agreed guidelines. We have therefore declined to continue with the interviews today.

We have come to this conclusion after considerable debate. We feel that this is the right course of action, which has at its heart the best interests of surgical trainees, training and our patients.

A serious procedural flaw, which came to light this morning, has been the complete lack of a longlisting process prior to selecting candidates for interview. This alone is sufficient grounds for postponement or cancellation and makes the entire recruitment process open to criticism and challenge."
 

leorl

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jan 2, 2001
5,561
17
messymedic.blogspot.com
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
The problem with going Aussie is that now they have made (starting from this year) all non-Aussie citizens take the Aussie exam, which goes back to the problem of there not being enough time to take it. Not to mention the fact that those who have already the PLAB or started the USMLE series will have to shell out even more money and study time at very short notice.

You're right...someone like me would not necessarily disagree with the protectionism, although it happens more in other countries than the US, each country should have some degree of protectionism. However, it's the manner in which everyone found out which is ridiculous. And even more ridiculous given that elsewhere in the world is experiencing a doctor shortage.
 
About the Ads
This thread is more than 14 years old.

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. Your new thread title is very short, and likely is unhelpful.
  2. Your reply is very short and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  3. Your reply is very long and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  4. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
  5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
  6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  7. This thread is locked.