New York looting ventilators and N95s from rural hospitals.

[deleted480308]

the example cuomo gave in his talk is something along the lines of if a hospital has 5 ventilators sitting, he'll borrow 1. hes not going to take them ALL and leave them with nothing. if that hospital then need additional ventilators, he'll do the same, find ventilators for them from elsewhere.

the point is to use the ventilators RIGHT NOW because people need them

Sending guys with guns to take your stuff against your will isn’t “borrowing”

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[kmurp]

Sending guys with guns to take your stuff against your will isn’t “borrowing”

We all await your posting of a picture showing ventilators being taken by gunpoint. As I work in Upstate NY, and one of our CRNAs just got called up to the Guard maybe she or I could get a picture for you.

 

[deleted480308]

We all await your posting of a picture showing ventilators being taken by gunpoint. As I work in Upstate NY, and one of our CRNAs just got called up to the Guard maybe she or I could get a picture for you.

That was the point of him threatening to send the guard. It wasn’t because the school board doesn’t have vehicles, it was because he wants to show he is willing to send military force to physically take the stuff

You know it and so does everyone else

 

[24GaugeEJ]

I’m genuinely curious as to your thoughts on condemnation of property and eminent domain. I think this is an interesting discussion. I somewhat disagree with your point of view, thus far, but apart from providing the logistics of actually transporting the ventilators, your concern about the national guard is warranted.

 

[PTPoeny]

Is it different when the in unused vent is in a private home?

Mother Pleads With Medical Company To Keep Backup Ventilator for Child

The company is reaching out to people with two ventilators.

spectrumlocalnews.com

I know this is the DME company asking for their vent back, but I would assume the vent will go to NYC all the same.

 

[chocomorsel]

Is it different when the in unused vent is in a private home?

Mother Pleads With Medical Company To Keep Backup Ventilator for Child

The company is reaching out to people with two ventilators.

spectrumlocalnews.com

I know this is the DME company asking for their vent back, but I would assume the vent will go to NYC all the same.

These are desperate times. And if the vent is collecting dust...it’s not needed.

 

[pgg]

These are desperate times. And if the vent is collecting dust...it’s not needed.

Backups aren't "unneeded" because they're not in use at the moment. How about the extra battery or generator that's the backup power for the ventilator? Well, the utility power is on right now, so it's not "needed" ...

The only relevant questions here are who owns the backup ventilator, and if the family doesn't own it, the terms of their possession. The article isn't clear. Maybe the company owns it, and rent is paid by insurance? The company also claims it's a travel vent, not a backup. Seems perfectly reasonable for the company to ask them to return it if it's unused, and perfectly reasonable for the family to say either yes or no.

I'm not sure why anyone needs to get outraged over this.

 

[vector2]

Backups aren't "unneeded" because they're not in use at the moment. How about the extra battery or generator that's the backup power for the ventilator? Well, the utility power is on right now, so it's not "needed" ...

The only relevant questions here are who owns the backup ventilator, and if the family doesn't own it, the terms of their possession. The article isn't clear. Maybe the company owns it, and rent is paid by insurance? The company also claims it's a travel vent, not a backup. Seems perfectly reasonable for the company to ask them to return it if it's unused, and perfectly reasonable for the family to say either yes or no.

I'm not sure why anyone needs to get outraged over this.

I think the more salient question is whether the government can seize your property in an emergency, even if that property is privately owned... and I think the answer to that is they most definitely can as long as you are being fairly compensated

 

[deleted480308]

I think the more salient question is whether the government can seize your property in an emergency, even if that property is privately owned... and I think the answer to that is they most definitely can as long as you are being fairly compensated

Or more accurately “will”. “Can” legally and “should” are much more complicated questions

 

[nimbus]

I think the more salient question is whether the government can seize your property in an emergency, even if that property is privately owned... and I think the answer to that is they most definitely can as long as you are being fairly compensated

There’s 3A so the government can’t seize your home.

Third Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[MirrorTodd]

I think the more salient question is whether the government can seize your property in an emergency, even if that property is privately owned... and I think the answer to that is they most definitely can as long as you are being fairly compensated and they will bring guns

FTFY

 

[vector2]

There’s 3A so the government can’t seize your home.

Third Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

"No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law."

Legislature passes an emergency bill to the contrary, the executive signs it. Bingo bango. Takes months if not years for this kind of thing to be adjudicated in the courts so it at least becomes de facto law for awhile.

FTFY

I'm talking about what eminent domain law tells us, not the hypothetical libertarian fever dream version of what the govt can do.

 

[MirrorTodd]

"No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law."

Legislature passes an emergency bill to the contrary, the executive signs it. Bingo bango. Takes months if not years for this kind of thing to be adjudicated in the courts so it at least becomes de facto law for awhile.



I'm talking about what eminent domain law tells us, not the hypothetical libertarian fever dream version of what the govt can do.

I mean you literally just described how they could take your things from you like RIGHT above your reply to my post. You think they won't come with guns? Laws are upheld by people with guns in this country dude. Like, ya they won't come bursting down your door pointing m4's at your face all "gimme that ****ing ventilator!" But they will come with guns.

 

[vector2]

I mean you literally just described how they could take your things from you like RIGHT above your reply to my post. You think they won't come with guns? Laws are upheld by people with guns in this country dude. Like, ya they won't come bursting down your door pointing m4's at your face all "gimme that ****ing ventilator!" But they will come with guns.

Jfc dude, whether they're carrying guns or not is an entirely separate issue from whether it's legal or not. If the govt is operating under a lawful eminent domain statute and you are resisting a lawful order then of course you're probably going to get a notice that says the seizure can either be done peacefully or by force- your choice.


Like 500 ppl died in nyc yesterday and there are vents in the state collecting dust. Don't hoard water when there are houses on fire in your neighborhood right now

 

[deleted480308]

Jfc dude, whether they're carrying guns or not is an entirely separate issue from whether it's legal or not. If the govt is operating under a lawful eminent domain statute and you are resisting a lawful order then of course you're probably going to get a notice that says the seizure can either be done peacefully or by force- your choice.


Like 500 ppl died in nyc yesterday and there are vents in the state collecting dust. Don't hoard water when there are houses on fire in your neighborhood right now

If property rights matter...and they do. It doesn’t matter what I want your vent for if it’s your vent. I don’t get to take it

 

[pgg]

I think the more salient question is whether the government can seize your property in an emergency, even if that property is privately owned... and I think the answer to that is they most definitely can as long as you are being fairly compensated

This wasn't the government.

This was a medical equipment company

asking

a person if she would be willing to turn in a travel ventilator she wasn't using.

Near as I can tell, she said no and then ran to the press shrieking ohmygod ohmygod ohmygod ohmygod ohmygod OHMYGOD.

It appears the only one trying to get the government involved was the mother, who called the Office of the Attorney General.


Of course the government can do whatever it wants and then wait for you to fight it in court. There's precedent for all kinds of legal and illegal, constitutional and unconstitutional seizures.

 

[vector2]

This wasn't the government.

This was a medical equipment company

asking

a person if she would be willing to turn in a travel ventilator she wasn't using.

Near as I can tell, she said no and then ran to the press shrieking ohmygod ohmygod ohmygod ohmygod ohmygod OHMYGOD.

It appears the only one trying to get the government involved was the mother, who called the Office of the Attorney General.


Of course the government can do whatever it wants and then wait for you to fight it in court. There's precedent for all kinds of legal and illegal, constitutional and unconstitutional seizures.

Sorry, shouldn’t have quoted you, I was referring more broadly to the question about Cuomo or what the feds could do

 

[chocomorsel]

This wasn't the government.

This was a medical equipment company

asking

a person if she would be willing to turn in a travel ventilator she wasn't using.

Near as I can tell, she said no and then ran to the press shrieking ohmygod ohmygod ohmygod ohmygod ohmygod OHMYGOD.

It appears the only one trying to get the government involved was the mother, who called the Office of the Attorney General.


Of course the government can do whatever it wants and then wait for you to fight it in court. There's precedent for all kinds of legal and illegal, constitutional and unconstitutional seizures.

I wasn’t sure if you meant she or I who was being dramatic. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[pgg]

Like 500 ppl died in nyc yesterday and there are vents in the state collecting dust. Don't hoard water when there are houses on fire in your neighborhood right now

Generally speaking I agree and I would personally give much of what I have to help neighbors in need. One of the reasons I am more prepared than most (whether for a hurricane, pandemic, or hungry zombies) is so that I'll be in a position to help if the need arises. And for exactly that reason I'm skeptical of any claims that others are entitled to my help or my things. The word "hoarding" has both a charge to it and very specific meaning that doesn't apply here.

A primary and a backup isn't hoarding. Moreover, hoarding implies gathering an unreasonable excess of something in the early period of a crisis, to the detriment of others' ability to get what they need. She's had the backup for 7 years. That is absolutely not hoarding, or even selfish. It's the kind of foresight and preparation we should be encouraging everyone to do. But who would be motivated to do that if the prevailing opinion is that two of anything is too many, that it's unethical to have two, and that it's morally acceptable to seize the second item?

It's asking a lot for someone to voluntarily give up their sole backup to a life sustaining piece of equipment. I wouldn't do it.

 

[24GaugeEJ]

The 5th amendment permits the government to seize private property for public use so long as just compensation is provided. It is usually driven by the legislative, rather than the executive, but there has been plenty of case law over the last two centuries (plus the common law prior to that). There are entire textbooks on this topic, and not unsubstantial portions of first year property and constitutional law courses spend time on this.

 

[vector2]

Generally speaking I agree and I would personally give much of what I have to help neighbors in need. One of the reasons I am more prepared than most (whether for a hurricane, pandemic, or hungry zombies) is so that I'll be in a position to help if the need arises. And for exactly that reason I'm skeptical of any claims that others are entitled to my help or my things. The word "hoarding" has both a charge to it and very specific meaning that doesn't apply here.

A primary and a backup isn't hoarding. Moreover, hoarding implies gathering an unreasonable excess of something in the early period of a crisis, to the detriment of others' ability to get what they need. She's had the backup for 7 years. That is absolutely not hoarding, or even selfish. It's the kind of foresight and preparation we should be encouraging everyone to do. But who would be motivated to do that if the prevailing opinion is that two of anything is too many, that it's unethical to have two, and that it's morally acceptable to seize the second item?

It's asking a lot for someone to voluntarily give up their sole backup to a life sustaining piece of equipment. I wouldn't do it.

Again, shouldn’t have quoted you, I’m not talking about the girl with the vent at home. I’m referring more generally to the dozens of upstate NY counties that have low population density, low COVID burden, and a decent number of unused vents in various facilities, and yet their congressmen are taking to the media and twitter shouting about seizures and being hyperbolic as if Cuomo wants to kill everyone north of Westchester county. Give nyc the vents until the peak is over. They’re not doing themselves any favors by letting healthcare resources in nyc get overwhelmed because then the disease burden will again start spreading outside of the greater nyc metro area.