New York Times article on Caribbean medical schools

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DV, you went HAM up in this thread this morning.
For some reason I didn't read a lot of Doctor Synthesis' replies - and now I remember why. I'm truly shocked bc you guys were genuinely trying to educate him, you, SouthernIM, DarknightX, Greenberg702, Dral, etc. and took the time to do so re: quality of Caribbean schools, DO schools, MD schools etc. and match outcomes. I think it's interesting that he uses very extreme scenarios to justify his beliefs and huge leaps in logic.

Of course, when someone believes he can evaluate the quality of residency programs bc he shadowed at the hospital in question, vs. Residency PDs/Chairmen who've been doing this stuff for years if not decades and have to deal with the consequences (matching someone whom they're effectively stuck with) is galling.

It's one thing if you don't like the system - and no one here has ever said the system is absolutely perfect or clairvoyant. Premeds on SDN should know what the consequences are to choosing one type of school over another before taking the jump and shelling out six figures in non-dischargeable debt.

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There is a reason the AAMC created the "Careers in Medicine" website and why medical schools are actively telling their students to read the Charting the Outcomes data from the match. Previous to these things, students were not taking to heart career advising (to be fair Student Affairs offices can be just as clueless so I can't blame students for not listening) and specialty faculty were reluctant to tell the truth to some people that they shouldn't apply bc they get a lot of backlash from the medical student, so it's essentially a game of hot potato as to who should tell the student.

See slide #22 - http://www.docstoc.com/docs/1512467...ve-Specialty-and-the-Less-Competitive----AAMC (and this is from WashU no less)
slow morning in the clinic derm?
 
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Christ what's going on in this hot mess of a thread. Premeds, generally it doesn't end well when you argue with residents regarding the match. They're dropping what frankly is mana from the goddamn heavens here and idiots like Synthesis are wiping their asses with it
 
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Christ what's going on in this hot mess of a thread. Premeds, generally it doesn't end well when you argue with residents regarding the match. They're dropping what frankly is mana from the goddamn heavens here and idiots like Synthesis are wiping their asses with it
I'm thoroughly convinced DoctorSynthesis is a troll. He defends DO education to the death no matter what evidence to the contrary AND has A.T. Still as his avatar. If he is one, he fooled me for thinking he actually wanted actual answers from people. Him and AlbinoHawk DO do this and think every institution whether MD or DO should be treated equally (besides Caribbean).
 
I'm thoroughly convinced DoctorSynthesis is a troll. He defends DO education to the death no matter what evidence to the contrary AND has A.T. Still as his avatar. If he is one, he fooled me for thinking he actually wanted actual answers from people. Him and AlbinoHawk DO do this and think every institution whether MD or DO should be treated equally (besides Caribbean).
I'm convinced he's not, just because I've met flesh and blood people just like this.. =/
 
I'm convinced he's not, just because I've met flesh and blood people just like this.. =/
Well then the administration at his D.O. medical school have done a great job in indoctrinating their medical students with this garbage.

It's funny bc sometimes they want to be treated equal to MDs and at other times they want to say how much better they are than MDs: like claiming they're more "holistic", don't order as many tests, have extra OMT skills (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/e...athic-branch-of-medicine-is-booming.html?_r=0).
 
Well then the administration at his D.O. medical school have done a great job in indoctrinating their medical students with this garbage.

It's funny bc sometimes they want to be treated equal to MDs and at other times they want to say how much better they are than MDs: like claiming they're more "holistic", don't order as many tests, have extra OMT skills (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/e...athic-branch-of-medicine-is-booming.html?_r=0).
I want to cautious about damning DO admins because I don't know what it's like in there; I think the more likely thing that happens is premeds indoctrinate themselves with whatever garbage is flooding the internet and SDN, probably makes them feel wiser or whatever. That being said, yea I think most of us MD people get pretty tired of this "holistic" BS
 
How would you know an AOA residency is fine based on shadowing? @Dral is not fear mongering. There is a reason the AOCD (the DO Dermatology group) is actively lobbying against the merger - it's bc they're afraid of their residencies closing down.

Already been addressed. Look at more recent posts.

Do you not know what a state medical license is? The same state medical license is given to MDs and DOs. It's the minimal requirement needed to practice in a hospital in a state. NO ONE HERE IS denying that. A state medical license is the MINIMAL requirement. You choosing DO out of high school then explains your naivete on this issue.

Me choosing DO was the best choice I have ever made. Look at what I was replying too. Look further to see that this issue was resolved.

Vanderbilt's medical school is a top-tier medical school. PERIOD. I hate to accuse people of lying but you're on that if you believe that someone turned down an acceptance from Vanderbilt to attend a D.O. school. It has absolutely nothing to do with prestige. The research opportunities, and VUMC as top notch and NOTHING is closed off to you by going there. Their match lists are absolutely spectacular - you can see their lists on their website, as well as their match day festivity in which people read off where they matched to. It's really fun to watch.

I think it's sad that @southernIM, @GuyWhoDoesStuff, and @Greenberg702, @Dral, @DarknightX have been very patient and calm with you in trying to educate as to the reality of the situation regarding the quality of med schools, quality of students, match statistics, match outcomes, and every nook and cranny to you, DoctorSynthesis, and it's like you're a tape recorder that repeats the same thing over and over no matter what actual real evidence is presented to the contrary. It's people like this who are the reason why people from Allo don't come over to Pre-Allo or Pre-Osteo to try to educate you guys to the reality of things, and it's bc you don't listen and just repeat the same falsehoods over and over again.

I admit it was a probably rare scenario but it happened. I know it is shocking the notion that someone picked a good osteo school over a good allo one. Some people actually want to be DOs. BTW this guy also matched to the residency of his choice and has a great life.

The pre osteopathic forum isn't interested in you pre allo guys telling us how much better you are. In reality in the real world it makes no difference.

Why did you have to rehash this thread? I was content in letting it die. Check out DO fear mongering if you want the truth.
 
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Well then the administration at his D.O. medical school have done a great job in indoctrinating their medical students with this garbage.

It's funny bc sometimes they want to be treated equal to MDs and at other times they want to say how much better they are than MDs: like claiming they're more "holistic", don't order as many tests, have extra OMT skills (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/e...athic-branch-of-medicine-is-booming.html?_r=0).

DOs do place an emphasis on primary care which is preventive medicine. So yes DOs do place an emphasis on that. I believe there was a study done that said DOs are also more likely to ask about feelings (one example about how they are hollistic). However DOs don't claim we are better we claim we are equal. MDs claim they are better. The DOs claim they have a different approach and it's up to individuals to decide what they believe to be better.
 
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I'm thoroughly convinced DoctorSynthesis is a troll. He defends DO education to the death no matter what evidence to the contrary AND has A.T. Still as his avatar. If he is one, he fooled me for thinking he actually wanted actual answers from people. Him and AlbinoHawk DO do this and think every institution whether MD or DO should be treated equally (besides Caribbean).

Low blow on albinohawk for no apparent reason. But OK.
 
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DOs do place an emphasis on primary care which is preventive medicine. So yes DOs do place an emphasis on that. I believe there was a study done that said DOs are also more likely to ask about feelings (one example about how they are hollistic). However DOs don't claim we are better we claim we are equal. MDs claim they are better. The DOs claim they have a different approach and it's up to individuals to decide what they believe to be better.
where?
 
Christ what's going on in this hot mess of a thread. Premeds, generally it doesn't end well when you argue with residents regarding the match. They're dropping what frankly is mana from the goddamn heavens here and idiots like Synthesis are wiping their asses with it

An allo resident talking about osteopathic matching is silly. If they want to talk about allo matching then fine. But leave it to the osteopathic forum and our residents and adcoms to talk about our matching please. If they want to talk about what it is like for an allopathic physician to match then I'm all ears.

Hate to pick on DRAL but in this very thread he says MDs are higher caliber (with regard to admission as I later found out). Plenty of people like to correlate slightly higher MCAT means better doctor. Or say that MDs had better training or what not. MDs claim that the DOs claim they are better when in reality its the MDs who claim they are better (not all of them do but some mostly pre meds and elderly MDs make these claims). DOs say they are equal and their approach is different.
No not really. But thanks.

Albinohawk is a fair guy. He isn't even involved with this thread so why would you hate on him?
 
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An allo resident talking about osteopathic matching is silly. If they want to talk about allo matching then fine. But leave it to the osteopathic forum and our residents and adcoms to talk about our matching please. If they want to talk about what it is like for an allopathic physician to match then I'm all ears.


Hate to pick on DRAL but in this very thread he says MDs are higher caliber (with regard to admission as I later found out). Plenty of people like to correlate slightly higher MCAT means better doctor. Or say that MDs had better training or what not. MDs claim that the DOs claim they are better when in reality its the MDs who claim they are better (not all of them do but some mostly pre meds and elderly MDs make these claims). DOs say they are equal and there approach is different.


Albinohawk is a fair guy. He isn't even involved with this thread so why would you hate on him?
@Dral has never said higher MCAT means better doctor. DOs have definitely claimed in media that they are more "holistic" in training. See the NY Times article. Also it's "their" not "there".

AlbinoHawk uses the term "D.O. Discrimination" - that right there speaks volumes. Your posts are similar as far as not knowing the truth.
 
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@Dral has never said higher MCAT means better doctor. DOs have definitely claimed in media that they are more "holistic" in training. See the NY Times article. Also it's "their" not "there".

AlbinoHawk uses the term "D.O. Discrimination" - that right there speaks volumes. Your posts are similar as far as not knowing the truth.

Good catch on the there mistake (typing on phone)

Any who I never said that DRAL said that I'm saying he said MDs are higher caliber. Read what I wrote. Also claiming we are more holistic doesn't mean we are saying we are better. We are saying the approach is just different. I will refer my patients to MD colleagues. If I felt they were inferior I would never do that.

You don't think that within pre allo boards or among premeds that DOs are never discriminated against? Albinohawk is right. However in real life DOs and MDs are both doctors and most patients don't know the difference.
 
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Good catch on the there mistake (typing on phone)

Any who I never said that DRAL said that I'm saying he said MDs are higher caliber. Read what I wrote. Also claiming we are more holistic doesn't mean we are saying we are better. We are saying the approach is just different. I will refer my patients to MD colleagues. If I felt they were inferior I would never do that.

You don't think that on pre allo boards or premeds that DOs are never discriminated against? Albinohawk is right. However in real life DOs and MDs are both doctors and most patients don't know the difference.
No one is talking about whether patients know the difference. They don't. That doesn't mean there is a difference in terms of the match.
 
No one is talking about whether patients know the difference. They don't. That doesn't mean there is a difference in terms of the match.

I agree there is difference in terms of match. Its the mission of DOs to go into primary care and that is reflected in our numbers. Its something we are proud of.
 
I agree there is difference in terms of match. Its the mission of DOs to go into primary care and that is reflected in our numbers. Its something we are proud of.
Yeah, it's also bc there aren't as many specialty/subspecialty spots in AOA residencies. That's why many of them do the ACGME match.

You have no idea how many of the people who went in primary care had no choice but to go into primary care based on their stats. That is what Dral was getting at.
 
Yeah, it's also bc there aren't as many specialty/subspecialty spots in AOA residencies. That's why many of them do the ACGME match.

You have no idea how many of the people who went in primary care had no choice but to go into primary care based on their stats. That is what Dral was getting at.

I know that alot of times DOs go into acgme residencies. That happens all the time. In some schools that consists of half the class.

I'm sure many people who are poor stats (from DO or MD) go into primary care because there stats are poor. However some people (like myself) want to go into primary care.
 
An allo resident talking about osteopathic matching is silly. If they want to talk about allo matching then fine. But leave it to the osteopathic forum and our residents and adcoms to talk about our matching please. If they want to talk about what it is like for an allopathic physician to match then I'm all ears.
You are not a DO resident or adocom. An allo resident is going to know more about matching and what residencies are like more than YOU can so why are you talking back? This is pretty much the equivalent of a middle schooler telling you how to pick your college schedule. But worse. Moreover, from what I've read the residents weren't even talking about DO matches, they were speaking of AOA residencies, which they would be an authority (limited to their field of course but no one has strayed outside as far as I could tell) over an adcom, unless s/he is an attending in the same field.

Hate to pick on DRAL but in this very thread he says MDs are higher caliber (with regard to admission as I later found out). Plenty of people like to correlate slightly higher MCAT means better doctor. Or say that MDs had better training or what not. MDs claim that the DOs claim they are better when in reality its the MDs who claim they are better (not all of them do but some mostly pre meds and elderly MDs make these claims). DOs say they are equal and their approach is different.
Your reading comprehension skills are terrible. Dral said MD admits higher caliber students. You have decided that this means he is saying MDs are better doctors. Nice "plenty of people" deflection. Doesn't work on any clear thinking individual chief. Haven't seen any MDs on this thread posting about how studies have shown allos ask more touchy feely questions or what have you.

You can't be equal and approach things differently as a field. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. If a DO were to get a concussed 17 year old with interval of lucency is he going to approach the kid differently than an MD? Give me a fcking break.
 
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ITT: the most obvious DO humble brag. "I'm not saying I'm better, which would be wrong, so I'm better (but I'm not saying I am)."
 
You are not a DO resident or adocom. An allo resident is going to know more about matching and what residencies are like more than YOU can so why are you talking back? This is pretty much the equivalent of a middle schooler telling you how to pick your college schedule. But worse. Moreover, from what I've read the residents weren't even talking about DO matches, they were speaking of AOA residencies, which they would be an authority (limited to their field of course but no one has strayed outside as far as I could tell) over an adcom, unless s/he is an attending in the same field.


Your reading comprehension skills are terrible. Dral said MD admits higher caliber students. You have decided that this means he is saying MDs are better doctors. Nice "plenty of people" deflection. Doesn't work on any clear thinking individual chief. Haven't seen any MDs on this thread posting about how studies have shown allos ask more touchy feely questions or what have you.

You can't be equal and approach things differently as a field. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. If a DO were to get a concussed 17 year old with interval of lucency is he going to approach the kid differently than an MD? Give me a fcking break.

Allo guys shouldn't be talking about AOA residencies. Go to the pre DO forum or the DO medical school student forum and ask away. There experience is far more valuable. If I want to know about the quality of acgme residencies (I might do one after doing opp nueromusclar residency) I would ask you guys and would appreciate that. Pre allo allo students and allo residents telling me AOA is sub par is meaningless. I was at an AOA residency and the residents and attendings told me that it was fine. They said there are better residencies out there but this one was good too.


As far as the DOs being better I have never made that claim. You guys have. I just state the differences. We learn OPP you guys don't. Does that make us better? No. It makes us different. Do you want to state we don't learn it? Rather you probably say we don't use it. That's fair. But if you do a residency in it (its worth it if its relevant to your field) then you could have an extra tool. We are colleagues who both went through extreme challenges. The vast majority of it is the same. There are differences though and DOs like to point them out. We aren't saying we are better.

ITT: the most obvious DO humble brag. "I'm not saying I'm better, which would be wrong, so I'm better (but I'm not saying I am)."

How is this different how from the allo guys who say there are better because on average they scored 4 points better on average on the MCAT? DOs are proud of what they are. We do have an extra skill and a slightly different approach. Why can't we tell people this?
 
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Allo guys shouldn't be talking about AOA residencies. Go to the pre DO forum or the DO medical school student forum and ask away. There experience is far more valuable. If I want to know about the quality of acgme residencies (I might do one after doing opp nueromusclar residency) I would ask you guys and would appreciate that. Pre allo allo students and allo residents telling me AOA is sub par is meaningless. I was at an AOA residency and the residents and attendings told me that it was fine. They said there are better residencies out there but this one was good too.

As far as the DOs being better I have never made that claim. You guys have. I just state the differences. We learn OPP you guys don't. Does that make us better? No. It makes us different. Do you want to state we don't learn it? Rather you probably say we don't use it. That's fair. But if you do a residency in it (its worth it if its relevant to your field) then you could have an extra tool. We are colleagues who both went through extreme challenges. The vast majority of it is the same. There are differences though and DOs like to point them out. We aren't saying we are better.

How is this different how from the allo guys who say there are better because on average they scored 4 points better on average on the MCAT? DOs are proud of what they are. We do have an extra skill and a slightly different approach. Why can't we tell people this?
Allo MD graduates and attendings in a certain specific specialty of medicine know less about residency quality than pre-DO studnets and DO medical students? Really? Their experience is more "valuable"?

So an MD resident/attending in Ortho has no right to comment on the quality of training and breadth of cases in an AOA Ortho residency? Really?
 
Allo MD graduates and attendings in a certain specific specialty of medicine know less about residency quality than pre-DO studnets and DO medical students? Really? Their experience is more "valuable"?

So an MD resident/attending in Ortho has no right to comment on the quality of training and breadth of cases in an AOA Ortho residency? Really?

Talk to DOs who did AOA ortho or DOs residents/attendings. Why would I talk to an allo guy about AOA stuff. That makes no sense whatsoever.
 
...and why is the thread not dead again?
 
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Talk to DOs who did AOA ortho or DOs residents/attendings. Why would I talk to an allo guy about AOA stuff. That makes no sense whatsoever.
You said "Allo guys shouldn't be talking about" AOA residencies (and the quality of the them) even though they're in that specialty. You know that is downright ridiculous. Either be separate or not but don't hop in between.
 
You said "Allo guys shouldn't be talking about" AOA residencies (and the quality of the them) even though they're in that specialty. You know that is downright ridiculous. Either be separate or not but don't hop in between.

They are in the speciality but that doesn't give them the right to comment on a residency they didn't do. Just because one person is a medical student doesn't mean they can comment on other medical schools. Unless they went to that school how would they be able yo judge it? See thr parrelel i'm making here? Unless they spent a lot of time at an AOA residency, or are an attending at a hospital that has a AOA residency, or have some other significant exposure to AOA residencies I'm not interested in what they have to say about AOA residencies.

I also wanted to make something else more clear about DOs. People can get so easily offended sometimes. When DOs say they are holistic that aren't saying MDs aren't. They are saying the place an emphasis on being holistic. DOs also place an emphasis on primary care. That doesn't mean MDs don't go into primary care. DOs also place an emphasis on minimal drug use (and have a technique to help them try and use less drugs) . that doesn't mean MDs don't try and use less drugs when necessary. DOs just place an emphasis on certain things. Also from learning OMM DOs devolp better hand skills which can be useful. Those are some of the major differences. Not once when describing these differences am I saying that DOs are better or MDs aren't holistic. Why is this so difficult for MDs to accept. You aren't being slighted at all.
 
They are in the speciality but that doesn't give them the right to comment on a residency they didn't do. Just because one person is a medical student doesn't mean they can comment on other medical schools. Unless they went to that school how would they be able yo judge it? See thr parrelel i'm making here? Unless they spent a lot of time at an AOA residency, or are an attending at a hospital that has a AOA residency, or have some other significant exposure to AOA residencies I'm not interested in what they have to say about AOA residencies.
That makes no sense. When you go out and apply for a job, your pedigree matters. And not just bc of name. There are AOA IM residencies that are a complete joke in terms of didactics, volume, disease breadth, etc. as they tend to be done at community hospitals. Should that person be at the same level as someone who did an ACGME IM residency at an academic medical center that is much more rigorous in terms of didactics, patient volume, disease breadth, etc.?

Residency PDs and Job hirers know these differences hence the unequal treatment. Same for fellowship selection. You can ignore it all you want (as you're doing now), but it's the reality.
 
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God please let this thread die.

Edited

Nothing in this thread has changed my real opinions (that based on MY opinion of what makes a doctor the best they can be, allopathic candidates are higher caliber and the allopathic route is GENERALLY set up to provide opportunities to nurture that moreso than others. Do those opportunities exist for DOs, IMGs, and FMGs? Yes! Are they currently more likely to be experienced by Allo grads? Yes!) and nothing I add at this point will amount to anything productive.

Others may have their opinions of what makes a great doctor or what it takes to reveal their highest potential. That is fine. That difference in opinion does not bother me. I graduated from a top 25 allo school, currently chief derm resident at my program and already landed a competitive dermpath fellowship...I have little else to prove personally regarding the training process, especially to most here on SDN.

Although I may have my general opinions, I do not prejudge and I do not apply those general opinions to those I meet in my daily life, whether MD, DO, IMG, or FMG. All have the individual potential to be great, and I treat everyone as such.

I will continue to provide individuals with objective and other outside data (like that I provided from the AOA dermatologic group) so that they make make the most informed decision when they are looking at MD vs DO vs IMG routes.
 
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As far as the DOs being better I have never made that claim. You guys have. I just state the differences. We learn OPP you guys don't. Does that make us better? No. It makes us different. Do you want to state we don't learn it? Rather you probably say we don't use it. That's fair. But if you do a residency in it (its worth it if its relevant to your field) then you could have an extra tool. We are colleagues who both went through extreme challenges. The vast majority of it is the same. There are differences though and DOs like to point them out. We aren't saying we are better.
Again reading comprehension - I didn't say you were saying DO's were better so I don't know why you're talking to me about this.

How is this different how from the allo guys who say there are better because on average they scored 4 points better on average on the MCAT? DOs are proud of what they are. We do have an extra skill and a slightly different approach. Why can't we tell people this?
What's your "slightly different approach" in the case of the adolescent I presented above?

And seriously - find on this thread where anyone said MDs are better because of the average MCAT

They are in the speciality but that doesn't give them the right to comment on a residency they didn't do. Just because one person is a medical student doesn't mean they can comment on other medical schools. Unless they went to that school how would they be able yo judge it? See thr parrelel i'm making here? Unless they spent a lot of time at an AOA residency, or are an attending at a hospital that has a AOA residency, or have some other significant exposure to AOA residencies I'm not interested in what they have to say about AOA residencies.
You've completely lost your grip on reality. "Thr parrelel" you're making is ridiculous and actually false. I make comments on other medical schools all the time and they're going to be much more factual than what a middle schooler can ever muster. Which, incidentally, is about the gap between you and attendings.

I also wanted to make something else more clear about DOs. People can get so easily offended sometimes. When DOs say they are holistic that aren't saying MDs aren't. They are saying the place an emphasis on being holistic. DOs also place an emphasis on primary care. That doesn't mean MDs don't go into primary care. DOs also place an emphasis on minimal drug use (and have a technique to help them try and use less drugs) . that doesn't mean MDs don't try and use less drugs when necessary. DOs just place an emphasis on certain things. Also from learning OMM DOs devolp better hand skills which can be useful. Those are some of the major differences. Not once when describing these differences am I saying that DOs are better or MDs aren't holistic. Why is this so difficult for MDs to accept. You aren't being slighted at all.
None of us feel slighted, you just want us to. The same way you desperately want us to say MDs are better doctors than DOs, so you can point out how correct your internal fantasies are. But they're not, and we're not going to take your bait, not now not ever. What a poor representative of your hopeful career path you are, you do a major disservice to DOs and the medical profession as a whole with your arrogance and irrationality.
 
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God please let this thread die.

Edited

Nothing in this thread has changed my real opinions and nothing I add at this point will amount to anything productive.
Never, TFL!
 
God please let this thread die.

Edited

Nothing in this thread has changed my real opinions (that based on MY opinion of what makes a doctor the best they can be, allopathic candidates are higher caliber and the allopathic route is GENERALLY set up to provide opportunities to nurture that moreso than others. Do those opportunities exist for DOs, IMGs, and FMGs? Yes! Are they currently more likely to be experienced by Allo grads? Yes!) and nothing I add at this point will amount to anything productive.

Others may have their opinions of what makes a great doctor or what it takes to reveal their highest potential. That is fine. That difference in opinion does not bother me. I graduated from a top 25 allo school, currently chief derm resident at my program and already landed a competitive dermpath fellowship...I have little else to prove personally regarding the training process, especially to most here on SDN.

Although I may have my general opinions, I do not prejudge and I do not apply those general opinions to those I meet in my daily life, whether MD, DO, IMG, or FMG. All have the individual potential to be great, and I treat everyone as such.

I will continue to provide individuals with objective and other outside data (like that I provided from the AOA dermatologic group) so that they make make the most informed decision when they are looking at MD vs DO vs IMG routes.

This thread should die I thought it already did but @DermViser had to start it up again.

Its awesome you are so successful and if I have any questions about dermatology or acgme residencies I would ask you. You undoubtly are very knowledgeable about that.

However we must all admit that we don't know everything. That being said it is only logical to ask DO resident who are doing or did AOA residencies to comment on that. Unless we are pointing to numbers (often what we do for the carribean) we should leave it to people who actually have experience to what we are speaking of. I'm sorry if that sounds outrageous to some.

Again reading comprehension - I didn't say you were saying DO's were better so I don't know why you're talking to me about this.


What's your "slightly different approach" in the case of the adolescent I presented above?

And seriously - find on this thread where anyone said MDs are better because of the average MCAT


You've completely lost your grip on reality. "Thr parrelel" you're making is ridiculous and actually false. I make comments on other medical schools all the time and they're going to be much more factual than what a middle schooler can ever muster. Which, incidentally, is about the gap between you and attendings.


None of us feel slighted, you just want us to. The same way you desperately want us to say MDs are better doctors than DOs, so you can point out how correct your internal fantasies are. But they're not, and we're not going to take your bait, not now not ever. What a poor representative of your hopeful career path you are, you do a major disservice to DOs and the medical profession as a whole with your arrogance and irrationality.

Derm viser said that DOs claim they are better. That's what I was referring to.

The approach isn't different in all scenarios. Some thing are done exactly the same. Your scenario would be an example of that. In other scenarios its different.

I already gave the example BTW.

Sure you may make comments on other medical schools but that doesn't mean you are the one who should be making those comments. Leave that to those medical students. I am saying very little about AOA residencies expect from what I hear from attendings and residents. I mostly am interested in what people who have dond AOA residencies have to say.

Moving on many pre meds an elderly MDs and in some cases others will say MD is better. You're denying reality if you say you haven't heard that. MDs claim the DOs say they are better yet equal when in reality DOs just say they are equal. Most MDs say they are equal but there is a subset that believe they are superior. This is all very hypocritical on there part when they accuse DOs of being the hypocrites. Talk about irony!.

Never, TFL!

Sigh.
That makes no sense. When you go out and apply for a job, your pedigree matters. And not just bc of name. There are AOA IM residencies that are a complete joke in terms of didactics, volume, disease breadth, etc. as they tend to be done at community hospitals. Should that person be at the same level as someone who did an ACGME IM residency at an academic medical center that is much more rigorous in terms of didactics, patient volume, disease breadth, etc.?

Residency PDs and Job hirers know these differences hence the unequal treatment. Same for fellowship selection. You can ignore it all you want (as you're doing now), but it's the reality.
I never said there weren't differences. I understand you will gain more exposure out larger hospitals. However its my opinion that we should be talking to AOA residents about the quality of there training. As a personal ancedont I know good doctors who did AOA IM residencies and good doctor who went the allo IM route.
 
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This thread should die I thought it already did but @DermViser had to start it up again.

Its awesome you are so successful and if I have any questions about dermatology or acgme residencies I would ask you. You undoubtly are very knowledgeable about that.

However we must all admit that we don't know everything. That being said it is only logical to ask DO resident who are doing or did AOA residencies to comment on that. Unless we are pointing to numbers (often what we do out of the carribean) we should leave it to people who actually have experience to what we are speaking of. I'm sorry if that sounds outrageous to some.
So by your logic, you have no right to comment about Carribbean education bc you're not in it. One doesn't actually have to shell out and go through it in order to see that it's inferior. When @Dral becomes an attending does he/she not have a right to comment on DO Derm residencies? Or does he/she have to redo a residency in Derm in the DO world?
 
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"the Internet goes down when demand is high, typically during finals week."

#1 reason to apply inland.
 
So by your logic, you have no right to comment about Carribbean education bc you're not in it. One doesn't actually have to shell out and go through it in order to see that it's inferior. When @Dral becomes an attending does he/she not have a right to comment on DO Derm residencies? Or does he/she have to redo a residency in Derm in the DO world?
It's just incredulous how much 1984-style doublethinking is going on. I'm flabbergasted.
 
It's just incredulous how much 1984-style doublethinking is going on. I'm flabbergasted.
Apparently a specialty is allowed to be practiced differently in the DO vs. MD world and one can not validly comment on the discrepancies in training between the two - whether that be exposure to various pathology, etc. without having gone thru both.

All MD and DO schools are equal and should be treated equal. Just like all schools in other professions are treated equal by employers.
 
So by your logic, you have no right to comment about Carribbean education bc you're not in it. One doesn't actually have to shell out and go through it in order to see that it's inferior. When @Dral becomes an attending does he/she not have a right to comment on DO Derm residencies? Or does he/she have to redo a residency in Derm in the DO world?

I can't talk about the specific training but numbers like attrition or match list I can point out. But you're right I can't comment on the quality of the education in the carribean if I never went there. If that person didn't do a DO derm residency why would we ask them about something they haven't done. Why not instead ask a DO derm resident? You know someone who has actually done it.
 
I can't talk about the specific training but numbers like attrition or match list I can point out. But you're right I can't comment on the quality of the education in the carribean if I never went there. If that person didn't do a DO derm residency why would we ask them about something they haven't done. Why not instead ask a DO derm resident? You know someone who has actually done it.
A DO Derm resident is going to learn what his/her residency teaches him and what he/she is exposed to.

Since many DO Derm residency programs are based pretty much out of private practices they're only going to be exposed to more suburbia/easy derm and not the more academic/more complex dermatological cases that academic medical centers have and thus their residents are exposed to -- the ones private practices easily give up on and just send straight to us.

A DO Derm resident while he/she is in residency doesn't get a choice on the cases that come thru his/her residency. By being at an academic medical center, as all ACGME Derm residencies are - they will be exposed to the hard cases. Anyone can get the easy stuff that's maybe 90%, it's the hard stuff in that 10% which is when it counts.
 
A DO Derm resident is going to learn what his/her residency teaches him and what he/she is exposed to.

Since many DO Derm residency programs are based pretty much out of private practices they're only going to be exposed to more suburbia/easy derm and not the more academic/more complex dermatological cases that academic medical centers have and thus their residents are exposed to -- the ones private practices easily give up on and just send straight to us.

A DO Derm resident while he/she is in residency doesn't get a choice on the cases that come thru his/her residency. By being at an academic medical center, as all ACGME Derm residencies are - they will be exposed to the hard cases. Anyone can get the easy stuff that's maybe 90%, it's the hard stuff in that 10% which is when it counts.

I agree with this but this is most probably an over simplication. I would ask DO residents about there readings about the more complex stuff and any added exposure they might have.
 
I agree with this but this is most probably an over simplication. I would ask DO residents about there readings about the more complex stuff and any added exposure they might have.
Anyone can read a Dermatology textbook. That's not how you learn Derm and it's not how you become a competently trained dermatologist. Like any other specialty, it's based on exposure. So their "readings" are irrelevant. Practices in the community are not going to see complex, more difficult dermatology cases long term that academic med centers are. It just so happens that nearly all the DO Derm residencies occur at private practices in the community or community hospitals.
 
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Anyone can read a Dermatology textbook. That's not how you learn Derm and it's not how you become a competently trained dermatologist. Like any other specialty, it's based on exposure. So they're "readings" are irrelevant. Practices in the community are not going to see complex, more difficult dermatology cases long term that academic med centers are. It just so happens that nearly all the DO Derm residencies occur at private practices in the community or community hospitals.

I see physicians reading and continually learn all the time. Its very valuable to do those kind of things. And once that DO dermatologist is practicing for a little bit my guess would be is that they fill in the gaps.

If you want to do something like dermatology it isn't ideal to go the DO route but its not like you can't do it if you decide to. Many DOs match in big academic hospitals also. I recall seeing acgme anesthesia at Hopkins. I recall seeing vandy IM matches. Its not like every single DO is going to small community hospitals. I'm sure the ones that end up going to the small community stuff end of filling the gaps. However these are questions for them not myself. Why wouldn't you talk to your colleagues about how they fill in these gaps?
 
If anyone ever asks me if DO is a good option, I'm going to direct them to this thread.
 
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I see physicians reading and continually learn all the time. Its very valuable to do those kind of things. And once that DO dermatologist is practicing for a little bit my guess would be is that they fill in the gaps.

If you want to do something like dermatology it isn't ideal to go the DO route but its not like you can't do it if you decide to. Many DOs match in big academic hospitals also. I recall seeing acgme anesthesia at Hopkins. I recall seeing vandy IM matches. Its not like every single DO is going to small community hospitals. I'm sure the ones that end up going to the small community stuff end of filling the gaps. However these are questions for them not myself. Why wouldn't you talk to your colleagues about how they fill in these gaps?
In residency, textbook reading is meant to supplement your learning which primarily occurs thru exposure to cases. It's not meant to be in lieu of it. The greater the number and breadth of cases you're exposed to --> the better your learning --> the more competent a physician you will be in that specialty. Reading a Sabiston's Surgery textbook doesn't make one a good surgeon. Doing cases makes one a good surgeon.

The reason is because real-life clinical medicine doesn't present like the textbooks. There are twists and wrinkles in a case which the textbook doesn't cover. It's why the skill of differential diagnosis and ruling in/ruling out is an acquired skill which is strengthened by exposure to cases, not memorizing lines and memorizing pictures in a textbook. As far as continuing to read that is done with journal articles - which is keeping up with the literature.

"And once that DO dermatologist is practicing for a little bit my guess would be is that they fill in the gaps." -- your guess would be wrong.
 
This thread is clearly the equivalent of explaining Jesus to a sea otter
 
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I see physicians reading and continually learn all the time. Its very valuable to do those kind of things. And once that DO dermatologist is practicing for a little bit my guess would be is that they fill in the gaps.

If you want to do something like dermatology it isn't ideal to go the DO route but its not like you can't do it if you decide to. Many DOs match in big academic hospitals also. I recall seeing acgme anesthesia at Hopkins. I recall seeing vandy IM matches. Its not like every single DO is going to small community hospitals. I'm sure the ones that end up going to the small community stuff end of filling the gaps. However these are questions for them not myself. Why wouldn't you talk to your colleagues about how they fill in these gaps?

Your logic is terrible. I still want to believe that you're trolling.

I get that you're going DO, so you'll defend it to the death. But your lack of insight is alarming.
 
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If anyone ever asks me if DO is a good option, I'm going to direct them to this thread.

Just say yes it is a good option especially if you want to do primary care. If you want to do derm or plastics etc its a good idea to go US MD but still possible (however less likely) out of DO school. Emphasis carribean isnt a good idea. Not so hard huh?

In residency, textbook reading is meant to supplement your learning which primarily occurs thru exposure to cases. It's not meant to be in lieu of it. The greater the number and breadth of cases you're exposed to --> the better your learning --> the more competent a physician you will be in that specialty. Reading a Sabiston's Surgery textbook doesn't make one a good surgeon. Doing cases makes one a good surgeon.

The reason is because real-life clinical medicine doesn't present like the textbooks. There are twists and wrinkles in a case which the textbook doesn't cover. It's why the skill of differential diagnosis and ruling in/ruling out is an acquired skill which is strengthened by exposure to cases, not memorizing lines and memorizing pictures in a textbook. As far as continuing to read that is done with journal articles - which is keeping up with the literature.

"And once that DO dermatologist is practicing for a little bit my guess would be is that they fill in the gaps." -- your guess would be wrong.

Agree with everything expect for the last line. Are you saying a DO dermatologist isn't a competent physician? What if they practiced at a big hospital? Are they competent then?

This thread is clearly the equivalent of explaining Jesus to a sea otter

Jesus is fiction anyway. :p

Your logic is terrible. I still want to believe that you're trolling.

I get that you're going DO, so you'll defend it to the death. But your lack of insight is alarming.

Its alarming that I think DOs are competent physicians? I admit what's true. I'm not going to sell my own medical school short. Whether its rights to pratice abroad (I admit you can't in certain places and gave a map that showed where) or ability to specialize (I gave those statistics also). I'm also saying that we should ask DOs about there residencies instead of just calling them all terrible. I can't seem to find where I'm being so biased.
 
Its alarming that I think DOs are competent physicians?

That's not at all what I said or suggested. Please stop intentionally mischaracterizing everyone else's arguments. It's a cheap and disingenuous way to engage in debate/arguments.
 
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Just say yes it is a good option especially if you want to do primary care. If you want to do derm or plastics etc its a good idea to go US MD but still possible (however less likely) out of DO school. Emphasis carribean isnt a good idea. Not so hard huh?
Nah, there's much more revealing here about all three options.
 
Just say yes it is a good option especially if you want to do primary care. If you want to do derm or plastics etc its a good idea to go US MD but still possible (however less likely) out of DO school. Emphasis carribean isnt a good idea. Not so hard huh?
Agree with everything expect for the last line. Are you saying a DO dermatologist isn't a competent physician? What if they practiced at a big hospital? Are they competent then?
Jesus is fiction anyway. :p
Its alarming that I think DOs are competent physicians? I admit what's true. I'm not going to sell my own medical school short. Whether its rights to pratice abroad (I admit you can't in certain places and gave a map that showed where) or ability to specialize (I gave those statistics also). I'm also saying that we should ask DOs about there residencies instead of just calling them all terrible. I can't seem to find where I'm being so biased.
Man you are going to get ripped apart in evals during your clinics, people like you do terrible in the real world.
 
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Man you are going to get ripped apart in evals during your clinics, people like you do terrible in the real world.

Many people are Pro DO. Why would I get ripped apart?

Nah, there's much more revealing here about all three options.

Well hopefully they read my posts then!!!

That's not at all what I said or suggested. Please stop intentionally mischaracterizing everyone else's arguments. It's a cheap and disingenuous way to engage in debate/arguments.

You weren't specific
 
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