new york times article on medical student debt

[huwp]

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/the-debt-of-medical-students/?ref=medicalschools

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[DAPI]

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/the-debt-of-medical-students/?ref=medicalschools

Too bad this article grossly underestimates the debt students entering medical school this year, and all future years, face given that unsubsidized loans have been available in the past, but no longer are and that residents don't make $150k or $300k on day one. They start at like $40k and are stuck around that (some increase each year) for the next 3-4 years of residency and 3-4 years of fellowship. Heck, I know a peds hem/onc doctor that after 16 years of practice is making around $180k and actually just recently broke that $150k mark.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile.

 

[Bangersandmash]

Too bad this article grossly underestimates the debt students entering medical school this year, and all future years, face given that unsubsidized loans have been available in the past, but no longer are and that residents don't make $150k or $300k on day one. They start at like $40k and are stuck around that (some increase each year) for the next 3-4 years of residency and 3-4 years of fellowship. Heck, I know a peds hem/onc doctor that after 16 years of practice is making around $180k and actually just recently broke that $150k mark.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile.

The author mentioned he assumed a starting salary AFTER residency.

And the hem/onc doctor you know is doing it wrong.

http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2012/oncology

I don't think this times piece is particularly enlightening. It was interesting to see annual payments you'll have to make, but we all know of the increasing debt burden. The whole point is most doctors are making enough money to live and pay off loans later on. And if you're going into FM or becoming an internist, well, don't go to an 80 thousand dollar a year school.

I think law school graduates are worse off. Or the doctors in other countries who have free education, but then can't make enough money to live (e.g. Russia and ex-soviet countries).

 

[mvenus929]

And the hem/onc doctor you know is doing it wrong.

http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2012/oncology

Peds specialties pay less than their adult counterparts.

 

[Bangersandmash]

Peds specialties pay less than their adult counterparts.

In that case, he is doing it slightly less wrong

http://www.mommd.com/pediatric-salary.shtml

 

[Bangersandmash]

You realize a median is, you know, a median. As in people will be above and below it. Even 10% of adult oncologists are in her salary range. This isn't exactly unheard of in pediatric specialties.

16 years seems to be a long time to break into 180K but if he's in a highly desirable academic center I wouldn't doubt it.

The second poster used a very specific sample size = 1 example to make a point. I'm just trying to use those salary medians to prove that his sample size shouldn't be the basis of an argument about the cost of medical school and how to handle student debt.

Let's get back on topic here.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

The second poster used a very specific sample size = 1 example to make a point. I'm just trying to use those salary medians to prove that his sample size shouldn't be the basis of an argument about the cost of medical school and how to handle student debt.

Let's get back on topic here.

I'd say this is quite on topic. By definition, half of all pediatric oncologist fall under that number (although half of them would be over it as well) showing that even if you plan to subspecialize in a pediatric specialty you may not make as much as you think, which has quite a bit of impact on paying back debt.

You just embarrassed that you didn't know adult oncologists and peds oncologists didn't get paid the same? It's alright.

 

[hrandani]

And if you're going into FM or becoming an internist, well, don't go to an 80 thousand dollar a year school.

Right. Because all humans are completely rational actors with instant access to every piece accurate information, even future reimbursement rates decades in advance.

 

[DAPI]

The author mentioned he assumed a starting salary AFTER residency.

And the hem/onc doctor you know is doing it wrong.

http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2012/oncology

I don't think this times piece is particularly enlightening. It was interesting to see annual payments you'll have to make, but we all know of the increasing debt burden. The whole point is most doctors are making enough money to live and pay off loans later on. And if you're going into FM or becoming an internist, well, don't go to an 80 thousand dollar a year school.

I think law school graduates are worse off. Or the doctors in other countries who have free education, but then can't make enough money to live (e.g. Russia and ex-soviet countries).

Don't particularly want to go tit for tat here buuuuuut...

Sorry I missed that he said he started the calculations after residency, but given that, I don't see that he accounted for those 3-4 four years (lets say 3 years) of interest as a payment of $13,840 a year would not pay off a $136,900 loan that has compounded to $171,975.98 over 3 years at 7.9% (the rate he used) in 20 years. If he wanted to only pay $13,840 a year it would actually take over 40 years to pay off a loan of $171,975.98 If you wanted to pay off $171,975.98 over 20 years at a flat annual payment it would need to be closer to $17,130 per year.

Now if you assume the resident is paying the interest each month, which is about $10,438 a year okay, but nowhere did he state that or the pennies residents make.

Either way, I stand by my actual point that he is grossly under estimating the total loan burden med students take on.

The second poster used a very specific sample size = 1 example to make a point. I'm just trying to use those salary medians to prove that his sample size shouldn't be the basis of an argument about the cost of medical school and how to handle student debt.

Let's get back on topic here.

I didn't know a sentence at the end of a short paragraph starting with "heck" set up the basis of an argument, but hey, what do I know

 

[Bangersandmash]

I'd say this is quite on topic. By definition, half of all pediatric oncologist fall under that number (although half of them would be over it as well) showing that even if you plan to subspecialize in a pediatric specialty you may not make as much as you think, which has quite a bit of impact on paying back debt.

You just embarrassed that you didn't know adult oncologists and peds oncologists didn't get paid the same? It's alright.

Lol. Good try at baiting me.

Right. Because all humans are completely rational actors with instant access to every piece accurate information, even future reimbursement rates decades in advance.

You don't need to know future reimbursement rates to see salaries now. You think FM is magically going to jump up 50k+ a year above inflation in the future? You can go pursue your dream of Harvard and FM, but the practical world won't be nice to you if you have 300k+ in debt with a lower paying field.

Don't particularly want to go tit for tat here buuuuuut...

Sorry I missed that he said he started the calculations after residency, but given that, I don't see that he accounted for those 3-4 four years (lets say 3 years) of interest as a payment of $13,840 a year would not pay off a $136,900 loan that has compounded to $171,975.98 over 3 years at 7.9% (the rate he used) in 20 years. If he wanted to only pay $13,840 a year it would actually take over 40 years to pay off a loan of $171,975.98 If you wanted to pay off $171,975.98 over 20 years at a flat annual payment it would need to be closer to $17,130 per year.

Now if you assume the resident is paying the interest each month, which is about $10,438 a year okay, but nowhere did he state that or the pennies residents make.

Either way, I stand by my actual point that he is grossly under estimating the total loan burden med students take on.



I didn't know a sentence at the end of a short paragraph starting with "heck" set up the basis of an argument, but hey, what do I know

I see your point about interest accrual, I didn't check his math.

As for average salaries and debt burdens, everything has to be taken with a grain of salt. Do you know if the peds hem/onc you know had a lot of debt out of med school? I'm going to say it was a lot different for him coming out of med school 18 years ago than it will be for us.

At the end of the day, lots of different specialties make lots of different salaries, but most med school students will have a large amount of debt and most med school students will make 120k + a year. Which brings me back to my original point which I would really like to hear other people's opinions on: Many law school students are worse off. Doctors in countries with socialized medicine (especially ex-Soviet countries and Russia) can barely make enough money to live off of.

When all is said and done, even using DAPI's ~17k annual payment to pay off average debt in 20 years, even making ~100 grand (after taxes) as a doctor, that still leaves you 80k per year to live off of. That's pretty good even for American standards.

 

[SaintJude]

In debates on health work force policy, it is frequently argued that medical education is a public good, because it benefits society as a whole.The implication is that tuition charges at medical schools should be zero or close to zero

Yes! Med school would probably be even more competitive, but wouldn't it be a lovely world...

Also, the writer assumes that it will take 20 years to pay off the debt. Most doctors would be in their 40s when they're finished?!\

 

[Bangersandmash]

Yes! Med school would probably be even more competitive, but wouldn't it be a lovely world...

Also, the writer assumes that it will take 20 years to pay off the debt. Even in that 'reasonable' scenario. Most doctors would be in their 40s when they're finished?! This is the only country in the world, that's fine with people paying loans for 20 years. I would be scared.

Would you rather do 6 years of schooling in Russia to make 12k a year as a doctor or do 8 years of schooling in America to make 200 grand a year with ~20k a year in loans for 20 years?

 

[SaintJude]

Hmm, yes I actually edited my comment, but didn't save before you replied. You're right.