Newer Medical Schools and Competitive Residencies

[xeryus]

Do competitive residencies disfavor applicants who are graduating from a relatively new MD school (all other factors equal)? Here are the details:

I'm interested in a new(ish) MD school that has its charter class graduating in 2016 (no match data yet). I would be in the class of 2019 should I choose to matriculate there this fall. The school has really impressive facilities and a seemingly strong pre-clinical program (100% pass rate on step 1 for the charter class; right around national average for score). It would also be the cheapest school to attend for me.

Some relevant details about the school/hospital:
-Affiliated with the largest hospital system in the state and on the campus of a level 1 trauma center
-Lots of ongoing clinical research at the hospital
-Other schools in the state have been doing rotations at the affiliated hospital for 20 years

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[j4pac]

All other factors equal? Of course. But it is rare for everything else to be equal. If you want to know which factors PDs find important...look no further than the Program Director Survey performed by NRMP.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

 

[xeryus]

All other factors equal? Of course. But it is rare for everything else to be equal. If you want to know which factors PDs find important...look no further than the Program Director Survey performed by NMRP.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

Very helpful, thanks for the response. I guess I should have figured that if everything else was equal programs would have to differentiate somewhere.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think "disfavor" is the wrong word. Competitive programs definitely look at the high scorers of some newer schools. But having no track record of alumni on the whole probably hurts you. PDs definitely do go back to the same wells that worked out in the past. If we thought Mr X coming out of Y med school was particularly qualified, the next top grad from school Y will benefit from that perception. Conversely if Ms A from B Med school was pretty awful, we might pass on grads from school B for a cycle or two. This is true regardless if how those schools are "ranked", because frankly direct experiences with great or awful residents matter more to a PD, who cares more about having to deal with problem residents than the accolades he might get for having a lot of people who look slightly better ON PAPER. So for the rest of us, the alumni ahead of us set the table. For those at new schools, you are going to be the trailblazers. Which is a bit more risky to a PD. But puts you higher on the food chain than the programs whose prior alumni didn't pan out.

 

[xeryus]

I think "disfavor" is the wrong word. Competitive programs definitely look at the high scorers of some newer schools. But having no track record of alumni on the whole probably hurts you. PDs definitely do go back to the same wells that worked out in the past. If we thought Mr X coming out of Y med school was particularly qualified, the next top grad from school Y will benefit from that perception. Conversely if Ms A from B Med school was pretty awful, we might pass on grads from school B for a cycle or two. This is true regardless if how those schools are "ranked", because frankly direct experiences with great or awful residents matter more to a PD, who cares more about having to deal with problem residents than the accolades he might get for having a lot of people who look slightly better ON PAPER. So for the rest of us, the alumni ahead of us set the table. For those at new schools, you are going to be the trailblazers. Which is a bit more risky to a PD. But puts you higher on the food chain than the programs whose prior alumni didn't pan out.

Interesting perspective. What do you think are some ways an individual could mitigate the concerns of programs he/she is interested in? Is it safe to assume that for graduates of newer programs interested in competitive specialties, away rotations are a must?

 

[Follow the Cairns]

I think Law2Doc raises some good points above. I would piggyback onto that by saying that for you, as a student, being able to forge relationships with alumni and others from your medical school could be helpful throughout your career. So, given that the school is new, that network is not there for you (or certainly is not as established) as it would be for grads from other schools. I will also say that patients focus a lot on where their doctor went to Medical school, and often know very little about residency and physician training. My husband has been in practice for 8 years and can count on one hand the number of times a patient asked where he trained, yet he routinely gets asked where he went to Medical school. So, if "brand recognition" is important to you, keep that in mind.

Moreover, Regionalism is alive and well along the residency interview trail. It is not uncommon for Interviewers at a training program in one region to know only a limited amount about a school in another region. The way that lack of awareness gets tempered is with the experiences Law is referring to above.

I think the history of where, when and why the school is being established says a lot. From your post above, it would seem that even though an official school of medicine has only recently been established, a medical education infrastructure with good facilities, and a large hospital has existed for some time. Likely the establishment of the school itself has been a long time coming and may have been held up for political or funding reasons. I know that has happened in Texas, for example.

 

[Arcan57]

Depending on price, it's likely that the discount in tuition is going to have a more weighty effect on your life than the name of your school's effect on residency opportunities.

 

[Law2Doc]

...I will also say that patients focus a lot on where their doctor went to Medical school, and often know very little about residency and physician training. My husband has been in practice for 8 years and can count on one hand the number of times a patient asked where he trained, yet he routinely gets asked where he went to Medical school...

While I agree with the rest of the post, I have to say that 99.99999999999% of patients won't ever ask you anything about school or training, and of that minuscule number that might, most won't know more than 1-2 schools by name anyhow. So expect the next question to be "Is that a good one?" even if you went to a top ranked place. The only people who will matter to you, career wise, will not be patients, and will care more about training. So I dont think the issue of whether patients have heard of a school is at all important. PDs, as mentioned, are a very different issue.

 

[xeryus]

Depending on price, it's likely that the discount in tuition is going to have a more weighty effect on your life than the name of your school's effect on residency opportunities.

The discount would mainly come from lower cost of living, potential scholarships, and being able to live with family (free rent). All told I would estimate the savings to be at least $40K over 4 years. Would that amount be worth it to you?

 

[BrooklynBulls]

The discount would mainly come from lower cost of living, potential scholarships, and being able to live with family (free rent). All told I would estimate the savings to be at least $40K over 4 years. Would that amount be worth it to you?

What you've listed amounts to much more than 40k. I don't know of many places where living alone versus for free with family would only net you 10k savings a year. I would first try to accurately calculate the amount you'd save. For 40k, I'd probably go to the more reputable school. It's not a backbreaker. But I went to a quite new school when I was in a very similar situation to your own, and it's not held me back thus far in terms of securing interviews, in a more than average specialty in terms of competitiveness, from some places that I would rate as either moderately or highly competitive.

 

[Law2Doc]

... it's not held me back thus far in terms of securing interviews, in a more than average specialty in terms of competitiveness, from some places that I would rate as either moderately or highly competitive.

It's not totally about interviews -- when a program interviews 10x as many people as slots, they are going to be able to be more liberal in terms of checking out who is out there. Programs usually don't have the luxury of just interviewing those people they think they want. And who they want changes as they meet these people in person. But you aren't going to know if during the ranking meeting Mr X gets ranked higher than you because alumni from his school historically have showed up better prepared. You also won't know that Mr Z gets ranked lower than you because despite him being much better on paper, the last few people from his school really didn't work out.

 

[tvelocity514]

I've asked around on this subject as well in the past . OP don't forget that by the time you graduate, it will be 2019 and residencies will have 3 years of figuring out if the students from the school are good students or not. I think I know which school you are talking about because the step data is something a friend told me recently when she interviewed this year. I think if this school is in the se(saying this to clarify the school. Disregard if different school), I've already heard that it has a lot more potential than its parent medical school even though they technically have no affiliation . I think bc that school already had a clinical program for medical students set up, you'll find it won't be as bad as a brand new medical school with 0 experience. Just my .02$ from asking different physicians in the area.

I'm also a big proponent for saving money. Even 40k is a good bit. You learn 99% of the same stuff in MD schools around the nation. Some have a higher prestige and are more important if you want a top academic program or residency. If you're simply wanting to go into a certain residency and don't have to go to a top ranked one, high board scores with research and letters will be sufficient.

Also, if you're really opposed to going the school, you could always ask other schools in the state that you are accepted to if they would match the scholarship you are offered. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The worst thing they can say is no.

 

[xeryus]

What you've listed amounts to much more than 40k. I don't know of many places where living alone versus for free with family would only net you 10k savings a year. I would first try to accurately calculate the amount you'd save. For 40k, I'd probably go to the more reputable school. It's not a backbreaker. But I went to a quite new school when I was in a very similar situation to your own, and it's not held me back thus far in terms of securing interviews, in a more than average specialty in terms of competitiveness, from some places that I would rate as either moderately or highly competitive.

Yea, I definitely agree with you that the savings would likely be more than 40K. I just wanted to be conservative in my estimate. But with that being said, in your opinion, how much savings would be "worth it" to attend a newer school over a more reputable school (all other factors being equal).

I've asked around on this subject as well in the past . OP don't forget that by the time you graduate, it will be 2019 and residencies will have 3 years of figuring out if the students from the school are good students or not. I think I know which school you are talking about because the step data is something a friend told me recently when she interviewed this year. I think if this school is in the se(saying this to clarify the school. Disregard if different school), I've already heard that it has a lot more potential than its parent medical school even though they technically have no affiliation . I think bc that school already had a clinical program for medical students set up, you'll find it won't be as bad as a brand new medical school with 0 experience. Just my .02$ from asking different physicians in the area.

I'm also a big proponent for saving money. Even 40k is a good bit. You learn 99% of the same stuff in MD schools around the nation. Some have a higher prestige and are more important if you want a top academic program or residency. If you're simply wanting to go into a certain residency and don't have to go to a top ranked one, high board scores with research and letters will be sufficient.

Also, if you're really opposed to going the school, you could always ask other schools in the state that you are accepted to if they would match the scholarship you are offered. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The worst thing they can say is no.

I'm not sure what you meant by the part of your quote that I've enlarged, but judging by the part I've bolded, I think we're talking about the same school.

For my part, I'm not really opposed to going to the school, aside from having qualms about its perceived "prestige" when applying for residencies. Well that and the fact that I'd be living with family for most of the next 4 years, but if it saves me upward of 40K, I'll deal with it .

But to your point about top academic programs and such, that's not really important to me. For example, I may be interested in doing the integrated vascular surgery track. But being at MGH or something is not that important to me.

 

[BrooklynBulls]

Yea, I definitely agree with you that the savings would likely be more than 40K. I just wanted to be conservative in my estimate. But with that being said, in your opinion, how much savings would be "worth it" to attend a newer school over a more reputable school (all other factors being equal).

That number is relative to the difference in school quality/reputation, how much I would like or dislike the location of each school, and my career goals. My opinion in this matter is totally irrelevant; yours isn't. My only point is that cost should be a factor, but unless really different (more than lets say, 100k), probably not the only, overwhelming one.