No more CME conferences

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The interesting thing to watch will be the first few PDs that take the fall for scholarly activity. The blame game never looks to the top.

The only thing we had going for us was our board pass rates which were usually higher that the civilian programs. Now those are approaching the levels of inner city FMG programs. What a embarrassing, detestable situation. I can't believe I'm being asked to look at what medical services I can cut as optional. It his very hard not to detest those in charge. I really feel for those of you with long obligations.
 
I would bet core operational medicine training would probably be safer, those are the parts of military medicine they can't really outsource very well.

So, rumor now is that C4 might be going the way of conferences, as in by late March. Can anyone out there confirm?
 
So, rumor now is that C4 might be going the way of conferences, as in by late March. Can anyone out there confirm?

Army was told last week that there will be no funding for C-4 unless the attendee has "current deployment orders".

The message went on to say:

"As for the Navy and Air Force, this request only applies if they deem this as a rquirement to fund their Services' future students."
 
Army was told last week that there will be no funding for C-4 unless the attendee has "current deployment orders".

The message went on to say:

"As for the Navy and Air Force, this request only applies if they deem this as a rquirement to fund their Services' future students."

Man they really need to get it together here. I know that another individual joked about getting yelled at by an E-5, but at least you got an ATLS course out of it. It is crucial for docs to have ATLS or some sort of equivalent before going out as BN/BDE surgeon for a year. In my case, I literally was given orders to deploy in less than two weeks without warning, explain how I was suppose to complete a trauma course in those 10 days before I left?
 
Man they really need to get it together here. I know that another individual joked about getting yelled at by an E-5, but at least you got an ATLS course out of it. It is crucial for docs to have ATLS or some sort of equivalent before going out as BN/BDE surgeon for a year. In my case, I literally was given orders to deploy in less than two weeks without warning, explain how I was suppose to complete a trauma course in those 10 days before I left?

Exactly. It's not like they're not familiar with sudden deployments and last minute staffing changes. That's the name of the game.
They'll give you an ATLS training manual with your deployment gear. ATLS certification should be mandatory for all physicians eligible to deploy.
 
Army was told last week that there will be no funding for C-4 unless the attendee has "current deployment orders".

The message went on to say:

"As for the Navy and Air Force, this request only applies if they deem this as a rquirement to fund their Services' future students."

The message was superceded. The Army is continuing to do business as usual concerning C-4.
 
I wonder how much money will be spent on APEQS and how many generals will be awarded another star because he/she came up with yet another training module. At least the generals in MEDCOM have their priorities in order! Wouldn't want to waste money on CME, GME, research or physician bonuses to actually retain quality physicians. What a broken and depressing system.
 
For those of us working at GME programs this is especially tough to feel like you are staying on top of the latest advancements, controversies in the field, etc. Non physicians might laugh at us calling our CME TDYs mission critical but they really are in my mind. This is especially tough to stomach because it was one of the relative perks that we had on par or over our civilian colleagues. . .
 
Wow, that's a bummer. C4 was literally about the only military training I was looking forward to doing...
 
So they did actually come throughout and replace C4 with a full 3 day ATLS course. Any chance next years Interns might get a third week of vacation, now that C4 no longer exists?
 
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First, they send you to some hole where it's hard enough to keep up your skills. Then, they cut CME funding, your only link to continued professional development. Then they fill your hospital with mid-levels who hide their true (lack of) title behind their rank. Then, they allow the mid-levels to practice independently. Then, they appoint a nurse to be your boss. Then, they act surprised when you refuse CCC. Then, they act even more surprised when their retention rate approaches 0%. Go Medcom! I got a new proposal to implement: Let's take time allotted to CME, and make it PT time!!!, PT...CME...it's all the same, right?
👎
 
The latest from the Air Force is that even previously approved conferences have now been cancelled. Glad i didn't do the paperwork to try to get approval...

Funny memo department - when we were being instructed on how to fill out the forms for approval we were told NOT to put as a reason for attendance "my absence at this previously scheduled ..... meeting/forum/seminar would be an embarassment to the Air Force". Ha! They seem to be doing a fine job all by themselves.
 
At my hospital, the local medical staff regulation requires 50 CME credits every 2 years to remain credentialed, but my state of licensure only requires 40 over the same time period. I accept the personal responsibility and the financial liability to perform adequate CME to maintain my license, but to my mind, the extra 10 credits every 2 years should be on the gov't dime--it's their requirement above and beyond what's necessary to remain licensed. In light of the loss of CME funding, and my feeling that once lost it will be a cold day in hell before it comes back, I'm of the opinion we need to at least modify our staff reg to only require the CME necessary to maintain licensure.

-- Is anyone else at a place requiring more CMEs to remain credentialed than what is required by your state licensing authority?

-- Any thoughts on what may happen if I don't have the extra 10 credits when I'm up for recredentialling and I tell 'em it's because they didn't pay for it?
 
-- Any thoughts on what may happen if I don't have the extra 10 credits when I'm up for recredentialling and I tell 'em it's because they didn't pay for it?

I can tell you exactly what will happen, because I watched it happen to a nurse a couple years ago who didn't do enough CNE credits to meet the requirement.

His credentials were yanked on a Friday and they ordered him to come in Sat and Sun to do enough online CNE, so he could be recredentialed Monday.


I'm sure they'll tell you to whip out a credit card and do some crappy throwaway JAMA CME garbage post haste.
 
Yup. Happened with a CRNA I used to work with. He acted like it was no big deal. He "only" needed 10 units. He paid a hundred dollars or so for a couple instant throw away CME online things, learned nothing, and was back to work the next day. Great planning and professionalism from my "colleague". He didn't get it at all.
 
I am counting down the days until I get out of the military. I am marooned in some backwards MTF. I am having gradual skill atrophy. The proposed cut means just four days of clinic/procedure time for me because 100% of my staff are civilians. No more CME. Who knows if we will get our bonuses this year? Being a military physician is becoming intolerable.
 
I am counting down the days until I get out of the military. I am marooned in some backwards MTF. I am having gradual skill atrophy. The proposed cut means just four days of clinic/procedure time for me because 100% of my staff are civilians. No more CME. Who knows if we will get our bonuses this year? Being a military physician is becoming intolerable.

FWIW, I saw email traffic last week that MC bonuses are not affected by the sequester, so maybe that's one less thing to have to worry about.
 
The latest from the Air Force is that even previously approved conferences have now been cancelled. Glad i didn't do the paperwork to try to get approval...

Funny memo department - when we were being instructed on how to fill out the forms for approval we were told NOT to put as a reason for attendance "my absence at this previously scheduled ..... meeting/forum/seminar would be an embarassment to the Air Force". Ha! They seem to be doing a fine job all by themselves.

Yep. This happened, no surprise after the sequester but the previously approved conference all of a sudden was no longer mission essential. Never mind the time I spent preparing the abstact that was accepted. But I was enthusiastically told that they would 'let me' take PTDY to attend...thanks for nothing with the conference 1 week away. I'm venting, but it is not surprising given what went down. I have also had the unsettling thought that it might be a long while before we can get CME funding back.
 
I have also had the unsettling thought that it might be a long while before we can get CME funding back.

This is what worries me the most. 1, maybe 2 years without funded CME is survivable, but to the admin folks, it's just low hanging budgetary fruit tarred by the same brush as the GSA and VA conference boondoggles. Once it's gone, I don't think anything short of a sentinel event is going to bring it back. That's why I asked if about decredentialing; the lost RVUs represent a short term consequence admin might understand.

And I'm sorry, but enforced quiz-taking or another "brown-bag" lunch presentation by some nurse case manager about guidelines from 2007 is NOT quality CME. Seriously, today a senior nurse in education told me I could do that brown-bag thing, with a straight face; evidently CNE credit = AMA PRA 1 CME credit. 🙄 I put together a proposal for ACP-sponsored web-based CME for my department, and I can't even get a straight answer on that.

I've no idea what the GME programs are going to do, but if they aren't allowed to represent at national meetings, it will harm the reputation of MHS GME, and it will be doing a significant disservice to the resident's and fellows. "But you can go PTDY"; fine, I'll pay my own way, but I'll be damned if I'm wearing my uniform. Actually, what I need to do is start spending some more time with the drug reps...
 
I doubt MC "bonus" pay will be affected, even though there's annual speculation about it being cut.

I sort of wonder if reimbursement for board exams will be on the chopping block at any point. The military already says licensing costs are our responsibility, it's an easy stretch to say that exam costs should be too.
 
So I had mentioned a while back that we were told that Army leadership would start approving CME so long as a request was submitted ahead of time. I had also mentioned that I would post my experience with this. Here it is:

I submitted a request for a CME course that included sufficient credit hours for an entire year based upon my academy and licensing. The total cost to include travel, lodging, per diem, milage, taxis, and the course was $6,000 (a very liberal estimate) and it included a course in ultrasound certification, which would have almost certainly increased our RVU production as we currently send the applicable patients to the network.

I haven't been to a CME course in 2 1/2 years. I've paid for all of my CME out-of-pocket during that time. The nearest city where my academy has hosted a conference during my time at this duty station was 12 hours away (driving), so a closer course (less expensive) was not an option. All of my CME is online, which isn't terrible, but as most of you know is not the same as a conference.

I submitted the request in June 2014. I e-mailed to check up on it every few months, and always recieved the same reply: "It is still being processed."

As the timing drew nearer, I sent more e-mails, and I always recieved the same response. When it came down to only a few weeks remaining, I started showing my face in the appropriate offices. Finally, less than two weeks prior to the course, I recieved a reply.

The paperwork had never been recieved. That is, of course, very different from what I had been told for the last 6 months. So I submitted it again, without much hope of approval.

I received another reply: Please resubmit. There are some formatting errors which would prevent this request from being approved. No specifics.

I scanned the document fully. I am not an editor. I found one extra space where it (might?) not have belonged, but otherwise I could not find any significant mistakes. I resubmitted again.

I received another reply: denied.

So there's our newly revamped CME process for you. Certainly, had it been submitted earlier I might have had a chance to edit it. Maybe that would have made a difference. I don't personally believe that it would have. But that isn't really the point, is it?

I have yet to meet a physician in my specialty working for a private practice, group practice, or hospital who doesn' t a: have money set aside for CME and b: make more than I do in the first place. Most of them are aware that at one point the Army paid for CME, but they are typically shocked and apalled when I explain to them that we get nothing for CME currently. CME is basic support for your medical staff. Yes, it is their responsability, but if they don't have it they cannot practice. It is, therefore, in your best interest to ensure that they have access to CME. This is not to mention the fact that it should be important for large medical institutions to have well trained, well educated staff, be it Kaiser, Mayo, or the US Army. No one wants to come for medical care at an institution where the physicians are scraping together educational materials just to keep up to date.

In typical Army fashion, they have made it a policy to pretend that they care about the issue when in fact it is just a facade or an illusion of interest. The fact that they would require their medical staff to generate a request report (which isn't short, if you haven't done one - you literally have to research the cost down to the nearest dollar) is one thing - doable but time consuming. The fact that they would deny it due to a minor formatting error is tragically insane in my opinion. I see that as nothing more than an excuse to deny CME while reflecting blame. They want to make it easier to just pay for your own CME.

But that's just my take. maybe someone else has a different experience.
 
My CME packet sat on some regional j-off's desk in legal who happened to take a "few" weeks off for "personal reasons" and neglected to act on my packet. When I finally got to the right person and found out the truth, I was essentially told "too bad, pay for it yourself"
 
HP's story above trumps most I have heard, even if it is not surprising. I just submitted for a local conference (=same city) at which I have abstracts accepted for presentation. No hotel, air travel, TDY required. Cost < $1000. I had to fill out (at least) 6 identical forms, with all essentially having the exact same information, name, dates, costs, audience etc. If all 6 of these forms go to different places for approval, well then you can guess what happens to your request. The process is onerous enough, that you definitely question whether it is worth it or not. I have been rejected for funding at another conference to which I had research accepted, and I am assuming I will have pay for this out of pocket. Now, I am starting to ask whether it is worth it to even bother submitting research to conferences, guiding residents in this process etc. You need some incentive. If you can't get funding for a local conference, you might as well f$%!ing forget it.
 
I received another reply: denied.
Who's actually denying your request? I mean, who's pressing the final deny button (if you're in DTS, you should be able to see this). Is it some GS-6 schmuck, or an actual person of authority? If the former, I'd look into it more; there could be a misunderstanding where the person of real authority didn't communicate with said GS-6, who still thinks all CME needs to be denied. If the latter, I'd question him/her directly.
 
Who's actually denying your request? I mean, who's pressing the final deny button (if you're in DTS, you should be able to see this). Is it some GS-6 schmuck, or an actual person of authority? If the former, I'd look into it more; there could be a misunderstanding where the person of real authority didn't communicate with said GS-6, who still thinks all CME needs to be denied. If the latter, I'd question him/her directly.
The answer is a "Financial Attorney "working in the Regional Medical Command Suite. If I had more time, I would probably continue to fight it. That goes back to it not having been "lost." In any case, my biggest beef is that someone with a significant amount of pull at regional command has made it a policy to deny something like this based upon formatting issues - and I'm not talking about it being written in crayon. Minor issues - negligible issues. That means that someone has made it a point to set the bar for approval unrealistically high. I can think of no other reason for this than that they need an excuse not to approve anything. That's sad and pathetic.
 
Pretty simple. This all started on Capitol Hill. Don't like it? Vote ALL the bums out. I can say that now.
 
I chaired a national committee, gave an invited lecture at a postgrad course and was told that since I wasn't presenting irb approved research, my trip had to be leave ( not even tad). My answer came personally from my CO. When I questioned it and pointed out that other commands would have at least let me go no cost, I was told "that's why they call them commanders" by no less than my director. I dropped my letter 6 days later. No one ever bothered to ask me why.

I wasn't even angry, just resigned that this one of the thousands cuts would be my last. I've heard things have marginally improved but I suspect not. There's plenty of bull**** nurse driven cme to be had and they can keep pretending that's the same as sitting in national practice guideline meetings, listening to real thought leaders, heck maybe even becoming one eventually (wouldn't that be nice for a fellowship).
 
I'm skeptical that when the dust settles that CME will get the same axe as TAD.

This sounds like typical line-not-understanding-medical reactionism. "Our pilots don't need to go to flying conferences so nobody needs to go to conferences." I doubt medical is even on their radar when they come up with this stuff.

Still skeptical? Have things improved?
 
No and no.

At this point I expect funding for board cert exams to go away also. After all, licensing and certification is the individual's responsibility, right?
You are 100% correct. Soldiers should buy their own rifles, too. Why is the Army wasting money on things like field training? Seems like soldiers should pay for this...
 
I tried for no cost TAD. The problem is that it takes forever for approval (which likely won't happen), so you end up just purchasing it yourself if you really want to go and hope for a reimbursement. I decided not to go and get my CME through uptodate. Clearly education is a very low priority for the military.
 
That's not new and it's not indicative of budget constraints. In the Army, at least, officers pay for their own meals.
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That actually goes back to the days when officers were knights and road around on horses while wearing steel suits. To be an officer, you had to be independently wealthy. (Think George Washington.) The theory was that if an officer did not need a salary, he was less likely to skim off his soldier's pay and rations. The idea of officers actually receiving a salary is a relatively modern development. An artifact of that is the idea that officers are not fully reimbursed for uniforms and food (subsistence) while this is covered for enlisted personnel. Which of course comes back to the original point that officers must generally paid for MREs and such.
 
To be an officer, you had to be independently wealthy. (Think George Washington.) The theory was that if an officer did not need a salary, he was less likely to skim off his soldier's pay and rations.

Oh yea, that's right. I remember reading about "purchasing commissions" in Her Majesty's Armed Forces. I cannot even imagine having to spend tens of thousands of dollars between each promotion. I think this system made sure only the aristocrats can be officers. After all, "soldiers do not like being under the command of one who is not of noble birth". That and also the rich are less likely to be those dangerous liberals or the pinko commies of their days.
 
Do you guys really feel that actually attending a conference, as opposed to just seeing the lectures from a conference, is really different? I felt like the conferences I've attended were head an shoulders above uptodate CME in terms of the way they drove people to improve their quality of care, but they were also very passive experiences. It was almost 100% listening to lectures, and I mostly only interacted with the doctors I already knew. I feel like this can be done without 2 travel days and several thousand dollars worth of hotels and plane tickets.

They do sell DVDs (with CME) for some of the Pediatrics conferences for a few hundred dollars. Do you think that protected time, plus access to the conference lectures, is equivalent to actually flying someone to a conference? How much do you think you lose with that approach?
 
I've never had a conference paid for, but I have attended two with my own money since becoming an attending. My department also bought some CME videos, several of which I've watched. I would say categorically and unequivocally that the conferences have a greater impact on my practice and fund of knowledge than the videos. I'm sure there is a psychological component to that, meaning that my physical presence (and maybe personal financial investment) imparts knowledge disproportionately. Regardless of the mechanism, the conclusion is undeniable in my mind - conferences are the single best way to maintain and improve one's fund of knowledge and skillset.
 
I've never had a conference paid for, but I have attended two with my own money since becoming an attending. My department also bought some CME videos, several of which I've watched. I would say categorically and unequivocally that the conferences have a greater impact on my practice and fund of knowledge than the videos. I'm sure there is a psychological component to that, meaning that my physical presence (and maybe personal financial investment) imparts knowledge disproportionately. Regardless of the mechanism, the conclusion is undeniable in my mind - conferences are the single best way to maintain and improve one's fund of knowledge and skillset.

Do you really believe this? Do you also think that board exams shouldn't be paid for? Don't drink their kool-aid. Military medicine is a sinking ship (see the latest article in military times regarding propped Tricare changes). Serve your obligation and GTFO.
 
Do you really believe this? Do you also think that board exams shouldn't be paid for? Don't drink their kool-aid. Military medicine is a sinking ship (see the latest article in military times regarding propped Tricare changes). Serve your obligation and GTFO.

I am not sure how you could have read what I wrote and concluded what you did. I feel like my post is pretty clearly in favor of conferences for CME, with the clear implication that the military should pay for it because doing so is in the best interest of its physicians and - therefore - its patients.
 
I definitely believe that conferences are superior to DVDs or online sites. One of the things I hated as a resident were Q&A panels, but now I think they're (potentially) valuable ways to clarify points made during lectures. Additionally, hearing comments or questions from other physicians within my own specialty frequently raises questions in my own mind that may not have been raised with a DVD. Finally, I do interact with other physicians at conferences. Ultimately, the Army considers any travel less than $10,000 to be peanuts - and it is when you consider the amount of cash they throw down for far less essential travel. Most conferences will fall within that range. The issue is that they don't consider CME to be essential to the mission, and that further illustrates how disconnected the leadership is.
 
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