Non-religious/atheist/agnostic Doctors and Religious Patients

[softmed]

I know there are a ton of doctors out there who aren't believers.

So what exactly do you do when you have a particularly religious patient? I mean, I'm not stupid I know you don't contradict their beliefs purposefully because it may be very important for your patients well being (and their continued participation in medical treatment), but certainly if a patient wants you to take part in a religious ceremony (such as appealing to their god(s)) I could see it being a very awkward situation. I would see it as even being a bit dishonest to agree with a patient that praying or some other religious ceremony could change an outcome.

And I know they probably do some kind of spiritual respect type training, but I think the problem with non-believing doctors is unique. As a non-believer, I honestly cannot understand praying or religious thought. I think it would be far easier for a believer, say a Muslim, to understand why a Hindu is praying to his god/gods.

Anyone ever think about this? And how much do medical schools address these problems?

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[rockaction]

yeah, as a non-believer I've thought about this too. it makes me feel like I would be perceived as less empathetic to patients without trying to be. so many people are religious and I can see them looking differently at non-religious physicians and maybe thinking of them to be less caring than religious ones. studies have shown that atheists are the least trusted people in the country, so it would make sense...

my only strategy would be to not cross into that ground. be straight up about telling them you respect their beliefs but never let them know what yours are. and never take part in rituals...I would think that would be unprofessional anyway.

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Ideally, I don't think that I would comply with a patient's request to perform a religious ritual. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with a patient going through any sort of ritual, but I'd feel strange doing it when I didn't believe in it. I don't want to disrespect someone's religion by going through a ritual when I had no faith whatsoever that it would do anything. If the patient insisted that I do some weird religious thing, I'd politely suggest that they find another doctor.

Of course, practically, it probably wouldn't work out that way. I'd likely just do what seemed easiest and most respectful in that circumstance. I mean, if a patient asked me to take a moment and pray with him/her, unless I was terribly busy, I'd probably just close my eyes and sit there for a second. It would make the patient feel better and it wouldn't hurt me a bit. In general, it probably takes less time to just do what the patient ask than sit down and explain why I won't do it. Again, though, depends on circumstance.

I also think situations like this are going to be few and far between, except maybe prayer requests. If a patient knows that he or she feels strongly about a particular religious ritual performed before treatment or examination, he or she will probably seek out a doctor of that faith.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I know there are a ton of doctors out there who aren't believers.

So what exactly do you do when you have a particularly religious patient? I mean, I'm not stupid I know you don't contradict their beliefs purposefully because it may be very important for your patients well being (and their continued participation in medical treatment), but certainly if a patient wants you to take part in a religious ceremony (such as appealing to their god(s)) I could see it being a very awkward situation. I would see it as even being a bit dishonest to agree with a patient that praying or some other religious ceremony could change an outcome.

And I know they probably do some kind of spiritual respect type training, but I think the problem with non-believing doctors is unique. As a non-believer, I honestly cannot understand praying or religious thought. I think it would be far easier for a believer, say a Muslim, to understand why a Hindu is praying to his god/gods.

Anyone ever think about this? And how much do medical schools address these problems?

as a non-believer myself.. i understand religious prayer and thought.. theology isn't very different from a wish that comes from culture.
i know many believers and i think mostly believe in it due to sheer tradition and because they believe in the good of the world.
mostly you can simply respect there belief and say something generic like
god is testing your faith or.. god is working in mysterious ways to better you as a person..
i find my ability to understand this due to my philosophical side and love for the humanities.

so just don't be like House and outward call them a religious ***** and you'll be fine.

but in reality we're all believers..
they believe in gods..
we believe in the world...

 

[runawayclock]

mostly you can simply respect there belief and say something generic like
god is testing your faith or.. god is working in mysterious ways to better you as a person..
i find my ability to understand this due to my philosophical side and love for the humanities.

I understand the obvious need to respect other people's opinions but why should I feign a belief in an entity? What if I don't believe that "god is working in mysterious ways to better you as a person?" Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say something more truthful like "you are a really strong person, you have the support of your family/friends/loved ones, etc. etc. lots of people pull through this sort of stuff"?

I'm non-religious but i never say stuff like "god is testing your faith" when religious people around me are going through rough patches. Even when I was religious i found that sort of talk rather irritating.

Also, to OP i would recommend Principles of Biomedical Ethics by Beauchamp and Childress. It has a pretty big chapter on balancing respect for patient autonomy vs. beneficience. Interesting book all around.

 

[Depakote]

I know there are a ton of doctors out there who aren't believers.

So what exactly do you do when you have a particularly religious patient? I mean, I'm not stupid I know you don't contradict their beliefs purposefully because it may be very important for your patients well being (and their continued participation in medical treatment), but certainly if a patient wants you to take part in a religious ceremony (such as appealing to their god(s)) I could see it being a very awkward situation. I would see it as even being a bit dishonest to agree with a patient that praying or some other religious ceremony could change an outcome.

And I know they probably do some kind of spiritual respect type training, but I think the problem with non-believing doctors is unique. As a non-believer, I honestly cannot understand praying or religious thought. I think it would be far easier for a believer, say a Muslim, to understand why a Hindu is praying to his god/gods.

Anyone ever think about this? And how much do medical schools address these problems?

You get some cultural competency training in medical school, but it really should be common sense.

You do what you have to to make the patient comfortable. You don't have to share their beliefs but if a dying patient or their family asks you to pray with them, the least you can do is bow your head, hold someone's hand and let them pray. These people are going through very difficult times and the fact that they're including you in their private moments is a privilege afforded to very few.

 

[rockaction]

You get some cultural competency training in medical school, but it really should be common sense.

You do what you have to to make the patient comfortable. You don't have to share their beliefs but if a dying patient or their family asks you to pray with them, the least you can do is bow your head, hold someone's hand and let them pray. These people are going through very difficult times and the fact that they're including you in their private moments is a privilege afforded to very few.

 

[apumic]

I would see it as even being a bit dishonest to agree with a patient that praying or some other religious ceremony could change an outcome.

And I know they probably do some kind of spiritual respect type training, but I think the problem with non-believing doctors is unique. As a non-believer, I honestly cannot understand praying or religious thought. I think it would be far easier for a believer, say a Muslim, to understand why a Hindu is praying to his god/gods.

Anyone ever think about this? And how much do medical schools address these problems?

First, we know that someone's belief about getting better can change their outcome, so, in fact, prayer actually may improve their odds of getting better. So, in fact, I would encourage their practice of spirituality. Second, this is primarily the domain of a chaplain and not a medical practitioner. I would avoid getting directly involved in this as a healthcare provider as it is not your place -- either now as a volunteer, EMT, medical tech, etc., or then as a physician. Many (most?) hospitals actually have written policies pertaining to this and I have actually had it brought up in interviews for jobs working at hospitals and clinics.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I understand the obvious need to respect other people's opinions but why should I feign a belief in an entity? What if I don't believe that "god is working in mysterious ways to better you as a person?" Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say something more truthful like "you are a really strong person, you have the support of your family/friends/loved ones, etc. etc. lots of people pull through this sort of stuff"?

I'm non-religious but i never say stuff like "god is testing your faith" when religious people around me are going through rough patches. Even when I was religious i found that sort of talk rather irritating.

Also, to OP i would recommend Principles of Biomedical Ethics by Beauchamp and Childress. It has a pretty big chapter on balancing respect for patient autonomy vs. beneficience. Interesting book all around.

like depo said above me..
try to make them feel better..
as a human being you have the ability to be sympathetic with someone else's pain..
from there a person will know what to say..

 

[runawayclock]

like depo said above me..
try to make them feel better..
as a human being you have the ability to be sympathetic with someone else's pain..
from there a person will know what to say..

Right, but i'm saying that you can be sympathetic while being honest or at least not faking beliefs you don't have.

First, we know that someone's belief about getting better can change their outcome, so, in fact, prayer actually may improve their odds of getting better.

I wish I could find that study that was done a few years ago that showed that patients who knew that they were being prayed for did worse than people who didn't know or were not prayed for at all.

edit: found it: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002901053_pray31.html

 

[softmed]

First, we know that someone's belief about getting better can change their outcome, so, in fact, prayer actually may improve their odds of getting better. So, in fact, I would encourage their practice of spirituality.

That's sometimes true, but the point I was making is that there's no evidence that some supernatural force intervenes and helps them. And it only changes their outcome because they're religious. There are some diseases, cancer for example, where patient happiness has no effect on outcome. It's important to recognize this because I think it's still very important to keep a patient happy as possible even if it doesn't matter.

 

[GoSpursGo]

theology isn't very different from a wish that comes from culture.

I've actually thought this several times. Surely if someone says, "Wish me luck," before going into surgery, I doubt many, if any, doctors would deny them that simple request, even if you don't believe that some supernatural force of "luck" will come down and improve their outcome just because you wished it. Similarly, if it makes the patient feel better, I don't understand the fierce refusal to at least bow your head with the family of a critically ill patient while their family prays. It doesn't mean you agree with them or that you are assenting to their religion, but you are simply doing what you can to comfort them--even if it leads to you being slightly uncomfortable for a few seconds, I hardly think that your few seconds of discomfort is too much for a dying man to ask of you.

 

[IDoIt4Love]

I think the problem with non-believing doctors is unique. As a non-believer, I honestly cannot understand praying or religious thought. I think it would be far easier for a believer, say a Muslim, to understand why a Hindu is praying to his god/gods.

LOL. I'm muslim, and, as muslims are monotheists who, religiously, have absolutely nothing in common with hindus, I would not find it any easier to pray to hindu gods for my patient.

I think what you are expected to do is just be a doctor. Do your job; give the patient the facts, tell them what they need to do to stay healthy, and encourage them to seek strength and optimism in whatever way works best for them. I highly doubt you would be asked to pray for them...that simply isn't your role. They'll pray for themselves; most reasonable people realize that the chances that you share their exact same religious beliefs is not too likely and will not ask you to do such a thing.

If, strangely, a patient keeps insisting that you pray with his/her family, then you need to decide which is more important to you: how much you believe in your patient's prayers or the comfort of your patient. If they're not asking you to leave the hospital and it's not interfering with your other duties, consider it just another a way of making your patient more comfortable if/when they are about to die. In such a situation, all sorts of accommodations are made: last wishes are granted, pain killers are administered, so consider this another aspect to that level of patient care and go with it.

 

[zayka]

Medicine is not the place to protest religious fanaticism/argue with the patient's beliefs/show everyone how awesomely agnostic you are. Unless the patient's choice is directly against your own beliefs, respect the patient and let him/her pray during the trying and difficult time.

 

[runawayclock]

Unless the patient's choice is directly against your own beliefs, respect the patient and let him/her pray during the trying and difficult time.

No one in this thread is talking about whether or not patients have the right to pray in front of doctors. It is about how much feigning is required of a physician, if any.

 

[avksx]

Empathy is a powerful capability to have. Feel it as though it were real, and it will become real to you.

 

[zayka]

No one in this thread is talking about whether or not patients have the right to pray in front of doctors. It is about how much feigning is required of a physician, if any.

Sorry, I meant that if the patient wants the doc to pray with him/her, then the doc should just do it if they have nothing to lose, without overthinking the issue so much.

 

[boaz]

Studies have actually shown that prayer can result in better outcomes. An atheist would accept this as a placebo effect. Since you find theism such a foreign concept you have a hard time relating to intensely religious patients. But this shouldn't be any worse than a significant cultural divide. All that counts is that the patient can only be doing good for him/her self by praying.

 

[boaz]

A recent article on the subject:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091216121458.htm

 

[Zona Pellucida]

I will also face this.

My plan: Do whatever the patient wants me to do (in a 'religious sense') that will make them feel more comfortable/at ease. Praying or whatever with them has absolutely no effect on me whatsoever so why would I not do it, when it would allow them to feel more at ease. Not a big deal.

 

[mipp0]

as a non-believer myself.. i understand religious prayer and thought.. theology isn't very different from a wish that comes from culture.
i know many believers and i think mostly believe in it due to sheer tradition and because they believe in the good of the world.
mostly you can simply respect there belief and say something generic like
god is testing your faith or.. god is working in mysterious ways to better you as a person..
i find my ability to understand this due to my philosophical side and love for the humanities.

so just don't be like House and outward call them a religious ***** and you'll be fine.

but in reality we're all believers..
they believe in gods..
we believe in the world...

Quite a blanket statement/generalization oh wise, all knowing seer of the universe. A man's atheism is as faith based as another man's religion. Isn't your own philosophy/truth relative to your own experiences, etc.?

Here's an answer to your question OP. TOLERANCE IS ALWAYS GOOD. You can take part in the ritual out of respect, or respectfully opt out.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Quite a blanket statement/generalization oh wise, all knowing seer of the universe. A man's atheism is as faith based as another man's religion. Isn't your own philosophy/truth relative to your own experiences, etc.?

Here's an answer to your question OP. TOLERANCE IS ALWAYS GOOD. You can take part in the ritual out of respect, or respectfully opt out.

well.. to a degree.. unless you were born in place without religion.. if you have no exposure to religion you wouldn't have any faith..
atheism.. is a lack of faith.. you are to a degree born a atheist... because you have no faith in religion until your indoctrinated or experience religion.
truth, good, evil, right and wrong.. artificial words for a artificial world thats my philosophy..
truth is only what is self-evident before myself.. and absolute truth is a lie.
in the words of st.augustines philosophy.. you are what you experience..
but even then life is more then experience..


yes tolerance is the key

 

[apumic]

well.. to a degree.. unless you were born in place without religion.. if you have no exposure to religion you wouldn't have any faith..
atheism.. is a lack of faith.. you are to a degree born a atheist... because you have no faith in religion until your indoctrinated or experience religion.
truth, good, evil, right and wrong.. artificial words for a artificial world thats my philosophy..
truth is only what is self-evident before myself.. and absolute truth is a lie.
in the words of st.augustines philosophy.. you are what you experience..
but even then life is more then experience..


yes tolerance is the key

If "absolute truth is a lie" then, by its very meaning, this statement must be false, since it would undermine its own validity.

Any halfway decent philosopher or scientist would rip your statement to shreds.

Also... as for your first statement, note the major "chicken and the egg" problem here....

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If "absolute truth is a lie" then, by its very meaning, this statement must be false, since it would undermine its own validity.

Any halfway decent philosopher or scientist would rip your statement to shreds.

what is truth? is it from your view point? my view point? another's view point? or the mass view point?

like i said.. this world has a lot of artificial and "untruthful" meanings..
like right and wrong.. good or evil
by the fact that
truth changes from view point to view point
the fact that
evil and good change from view point to view point

makes it undeniable that those words are empty and artificial
things we created to make ourselves feel better..

and there my friend.. is the philosophy of nilhism.. creation of neitzsche

how is it a chicken and the egg thing..
you start out with no religion -> enter a religion
or am i missing something?

 

[apumic]

what is truth? is it from your view point? my view point? another's view point? or the mass view point?

like i said.. this world has a lot of artificial and "untruthful" meanings..
like right and wrong.. good or evil
by the fact that
truth changes from view point to view point
the fact that
evil and good change from view point to view point

makes it undeniable that those words are empty and artificial
things we created to make ourselves feel better..

and there my friend.. is the philosophy of nilhism.. creation of neitzsche

how is it a chicken and the egg thing..
you start out with no religion -> enter a religion
or am i missing something?

You stated that there is no absolute truth as absolute truth (by definition). As a result, the statement undermines its own validity. Whether or not we can define "truth" absolutely is irrelevant to the fact that your statement undermines itself.

The chicken and the egg problem stems from the fact that you stated that people only have religion due to being indoctrinated by the previous generation. Fair enough, but now we have to ask where it came from. Why did it originate? There are theories out there, but you cannot simply say that people have religion b/c they were indoctrinated at some point. There has to be a beginning somewhere, plain and simple.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You stated that there is no absolute truth as absolute truth (by definition). As a result, the statement undermines its own validity. Whether or not we can define "truth" absolutely is irrelevant to the fact that your statement undermines itself.

The chicken and the egg problem stems from the fact that you stated that people only have religion due to being indoctrinated by the previous generation. Fair enough, but now we have to ask where it came from. Why did it originate? There are theories out there, but you cannot simply say that people have religion b/c they were indoctrinated at some point. There has to be a beginning somewhere, plain and simple.

validity of my statement is of no matter.. as long as it makes you think and doubt that everything in this world is so.. straightforward..
as a person who wanted to be a psychologist.. you should know you have to look at something from multiple view points..
and thats the whole point

where did religion come from?
its call the promethean effect, Prometheus brought fire to humans and from there.. humanity advanced to explain things they could no understand. Truth, what is right and wrong.. or acceptable.. all derive from this promethean effect. Now... how you interpret what Prometheus represents.. is also up to you

 

[rockaction]

Studies have actually shown that prayer can result in better outcomes. An atheist would accept this as a placebo effect. Since you find theism such a foreign concept you have a hard time relating to intensely religious patients. But this shouldn't be any worse than a significant cultural divide. All that counts is that the patient can only be doing good for him/her self by praying.

because none of the patients are amputees.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

because none of the patients are amputees.

someone's been watching "why doesn't god heal amputee's" on youtube..
i wonder if anyone remembers venomfangx's response to it..

 

[teenmachinery1]

Thanks for this thread.

Like many others, I've considered how my atheism might become a liability as a physician.

I don't mind praying with patients or any of this, but I was thinking more along the lines of dealing with death and chaos without the solace and comfort provided from a belief in a ultimate creator, heavenly father, omniscient supervisor, etc.

Most physicians are religious (76%!!? http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2005/08/01/prsa0801.htm). It probably helps.

I will, however, look at someone narrowly and I might have to sneer a bit if I ever treat a snake handler for venom poisoning.

 

[chman]

I don't think it would be that big of a deal unless you are in a religious hospital, but even then I kind of doubt it. That is why a lot of hospitals have religious figures on staff so patients can request them. I am agnostic, but if a patient asked me to pray with them I would, because there is really no harm to me if I do. They are not asking you to join the religion. But I can see how it makes some uneasy.

EDIT; I currently volunteer at a religious hospital. The issue of religion is brought up, but they told me at orientation that they try not to push views on anyone.

 

[teenmachinery1]

Studies have actually shown that prayer can result in better outcomes. An atheist would accept this as a placebo effect. Since you find theism such a foreign concept you have a hard time relating to intensely religious patients. But this shouldn't be any worse than a significant cultural divide. All that counts is that the patient can only be doing good for him/her self by praying.

Studies have also shown that prayer can result in worse outcomes. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1072638.ece)

God is more mysterious than we thought, I guess.

Also, to say that "An atheist would accept this as a placebo effect," is honestly stupefying. The placebo effect is a scientifically verified, validated, valuable, reproducible phenomenon that is important in almost every scientific field ranging from -name your social science-, to medicine.

So, I would accept "A scientist or semi-educated person would understand this as a placebo effect."

 

[apumic]

validity of my statement is of no matter.. as long as it makes you think and doubt that everything in this world is so.. straightforward..
as a person who wanted to be a psychologist.. you should know you have to look at something from multiple view points..
and thats the whole point

where did religion come from?
its call the promethean effect, Prometheus brought fire to humans and from there.. humanity advanced to explain things they could no understand. Truth, what is right and wrong.. or acceptable.. all derive from this promethean effect. Now... how you interpret what Prometheus represents.. is also up to you

Haha, no I totally understand you. I was having a little bit of philosophical fun.

And no psychologist for me... physician all the way. I just have a psych background but I gave up those aspirations after completing the whole app process. I prefer the medical side of things.

 

[mipp0]

well.. to a degree.. unless you were born in place without religion.. if you have no exposure to religion you wouldn't have any faith..
atheism.. is a lack of faith.. you are to a degree born a atheist... because you have no faith in religion until your indoctrinated or experience religion.
truth, good, evil, right and wrong.. artificial words for a artificial world thats my philosophy..
truth is only what is self-evident before myself.. and absolute truth is a lie.
in the words of st.augustines philosophy.. you are what you experience..
but even then life is more then experience..


yes tolerance is the key

Atheism is as faith based as some form of religion--your logic is flawed if you believe atheism doesn't require faith in the idea that there is no god (not advocating anything here).

I respect your philosophy, but disagree with it vehemently. But like I said, tolerance is key.

 

[NickNaylor]

as a non-believer myself.. i understand religious prayer and thought.. theology isn't very different from a wish that comes from culture.
i know many believers and i think mostly believe in it due to sheer tradition and because they believe in the good of the world.
mostly you can simply respect there belief and say something generic like
god is testing your faith or.. god is working in mysterious ways to better you as a person..
i find my ability to understand this due to my philosophical side and love for the humanities.

so just don't be like House and outward call them a religious ***** and you'll be fine.

but in reality we're all believers..
they believe in gods..
we believe in the world...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Haha, no I totally understand you. I was having a little bit of philosophical fun.

And no psychologist for me... physician all the way. I just have a psych background but I gave up those aspirations after completing the whole app process. I prefer the medical side of things.

philosophical fun is the best haha
im still debating wether to double major in psych and philo

but yah..
Thermodynamics..
that is the real philosophy haha the whole field basically emphasizes that we dont know anything about what were talking about

 

[rockaction]

someone's been watching "why doesn't god heal amputee's" on youtube..
i wonder if anyone remembers venomfangx's response to it..

hahaha venomfangx....that reply was priceless. "We're all sinners and deserve to die. So amputees deserve it!"

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

hahaha venomfangx....that reply was priceless. "We're all sinners and deserve to die. So amputees deserve it!"

that drama queen needs to get laid..
so... bad..
i mean.. he's the ultimate rebellion against his parents..
his parents aren't religious so he see's being religious as a good thing..

the thing is.. he likely hates himself.. and yet.. at the sametime.. he's soo narcissistic.. when someone says he sucked he immediately stated that people hate god.
i mean what do you even call that.. its a messiah complex.. but.. i think its a combination of that with masochistic principles..
its strange..
anyone know exactly what venom is suffering from?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Atheism is as faith based as some form of religion--your logic is flawed if you believe atheism doesn't require faith in the idea that there is no god (not advocating anything here).

I respect your philosophy, but disagree with it vehemently. But like I said, tolerance is key.

idk i still dont understand why a lack of faith.. would require.. faith?
its counter indicative..

 

[Janieve]

I've been studying Medical Anthropology (part of my undergraduate major and an interest of mine), which essentially is cross-cultural views on medicine. I think anybody who wants to go into medicine should have a look at at least one medical anthropology text. It's been pretty useful in my volunteering.

For example, there are some cultures out there that view illness as coming from the soul. From their point of view, anything wrong with the body is directly related to their spirit, and therefore spiritual actions are the only thing that can fix them. For a doctor trying to heal someone who holds this belief, there is a definite moral conflict between letting them suffer and treating them against their will. Even if one does obtain permission to treat them, they are likely to have to choose between sedating the patient or lying to them.

Then there are more common faiths, like Jehovah's Witnesses, who cannot submit to potentially life-saving treatments because of their faith. Because a Jehovah's Witness cannot receive blood products, it challenges doctors again to fix them fast or let them suffer, potentially even die.

As for when a patient asks a doctor to pray with them, that is in and of itself a delicate situation. Generally, the patient or the family asks the doctor to join them in hopes of strengthening the spiritual influence of whatever deity they're attempting to reach or to receive blessings on the hands of the one responsible for their loved one's life. I asked my doctor once what he did in these situations, and he had a line I think worked very well:

"I'm sorry, but I can't pray with you right now. But I will stay with you as long as you need, and I promise your loved one will be foremost in my thoughts as the [procedure] is underway. Is that all right?"

I think it's pretty brilliant, to be honest, and he says no one has ever had problems with it before. He says once you've been working in medicine for some time, you begin to accept that people will do everything they can to keep their loved ones safe and protected, and you can't interfere with that. I happen to agree with him.

Anyway, I think what each person ends up doing is up to them. The end.

 

[BigRedDeal]

idk i still dont understand why a lack of faith.. would require.. faith?
its counter indicative..

Faith, according to Marriam-Webster dictionary, is a "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". A belief that there is no God or higher intelligence requires faith because there is no proof God does or doesn't exist.

 

[NickNaylor]

Faith, according to Marriam-Webster dictionary, is a "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". A belief that there is no God or higher intelligence requires faith because there is no proof God does or doesn't exist.

Incoming bickering on religion in 3... 2... 1...

 

[mipp0]

idk i still dont understand why a lack of faith.. would require.. faith?
its counter indicative..

My dear lad, or lass, all belief systems are faith based--you're getting confused because you're using faith and religion interchangeably. Even your atheism is a belief system that requires FAITH that there is no god. You don't know definitively, that there is no metaphysical/supernatural force. These kind of things...no one really knows.

–noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Incoming bickering on religion in 3... 2... 1...

haha.. you used ellipses

but yah
this was bickering from the start..

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

My dear lad, or lass, all belief systems are faith based--you're getting confused because you're using faith and religion interchangeably. Even your atheism is a belief system that requires FAITH that there is no god. You don't know definitively, that there is no metaphysical/supernatural force. These kind of things...no one really knows.

–noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

alright.. screw it..
im non-religious now

 

[mipp0]

Faith, according to Marriam-Webster dictionary, is a "firm belief in something for which there is no proof". A belief that there is no God or higher intelligence requires faith because there is no proof God does or doesn't exist.

The good man beat me to it. Touche.

 

[riverjib]

I know there are a ton of doctors out there who aren't believers.

So what exactly do you do when you have a particularly religious patient? I mean, I'm not stupid I know you don't contradict their beliefs purposefully because it may be very important for your patients well being (and their continued participation in medical treatment), but certainly if a patient wants you to take part in a religious ceremony (such as appealing to their god(s)) I could see it being a very awkward situation. I would see it as even being a bit dishonest to agree with a patient that praying or some other religious ceremony could change an outcome.

And I know they probably do some kind of spiritual respect type training, but I think the problem with non-believing doctors is unique. As a non-believer, I honestly cannot understand praying or religious thought. I think it would be far easier for a believer, say a Muslim, to understand why a Hindu is praying to his god/gods.

Anyone ever think about this? And how much do medical schools address these problems?

I'm non-religious, but 96% of the world is. If your patient invites you to pray with them, I consider it an honor, and not something that goes against my own personal beliefs. They have invested tremendous trust and faith in you, and you may reciprocate however you choose. If you're personally against it, that's fine.

Religion has no place in the classroom (unless it's chosen), but even for the most steadfast non-believers, it must be respected in the hospital bed. You are under no obligation to agree with their beliefs or even join them in prayer when requested, but if you don't feel strongly one way or another, it certainly can't hurt to pray with them in their time of need, especially with those who don't have family or spiritual leaders at their bedside.

I'm personally 100% agnostic...I don't know what to believe, so I personally don't believe in anything specific. I do believe in the power of prayer, if only the psychological aspect of it. Faith gets people past insurmountable odds, so if there's nothing else in which I believe, that's one thing I trust. I've seen comatose patients and people dying of cancer somehow rally and make it out of the hospital, not necessarily because God or Allah or whatever divine powers were out there, but because that was what my patient needed to get through it.

So do what you feel is appropriate for you. There's no wrong decision here, but your support couldn't hurt.

 

[chman]

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[chman]

You could always take this approach.

[YOUTUBE]LqeC3BPYTmE[/YOUTUBE]

 

[SparkleMotion]

with[/I] you right now. But I will stay with you as long as you need, and I promise your loved one will be foremost in my thoughts as the [procedure] is underway. Is that all right?"

This is what I would do.

I would hope that by the time someone gets their M.D they would have some integrity.

Not only would it be immoral, it would be making a mockery of your patients beliefs to pretend to take part in their religious acts.

Show some respect, bow your head, and say what Janieve suggested.

 

[Zona Pellucida]

This is what I would do.

I would hope that by the time someone gets their M.D they would have some integrity.

Not only would it be immoral, it would be making a mockery of your patients beliefs to pretend to take part in their religious acts.

Show some respect, bow your head, and say what Janieve suggested.

How is bowing your head and thinking positively about a dire situation making a mockery of the patient's beliefs.

Some people are deeply religious and may feel better if the doctor participates in a moment of reflection. It's not a big deal at all and I do not see how I have lost all my integrity by respecting the values and beliefs of others... especially those who are counting on me to aid their loved ones.