Non-trad reapplying, need advice on pre-med advisor and gap year

[premed23456]

Hey all,

I'm a nontrad student mainly because I have a DUI conviction and an academic violation from 2010 which required me to take as much time as possible to prove myself. In the meantime, I've graduated with a double-major in Biology and Spanish, clocked in hundreds of hours of healthcare volunteer experience, did a research grad degree of a masters in molecular biology, held multiple leadership positions, founded a student org, did vaccine research at the NIH, and went abroad to do public health work on a prestigious public health fellowship for a year. I have a ugpa of 3.33, science gpa of 2.89, grad gpa of 3.87, and MCAT score of 512 (88th percentile).

I applied to med school in 2016 and received 2 interviews, yet ended up rejected from both. I'm preparing to reapply but my pre-med advisor is currently discouraging me from reapplying, saying that the stigma of being a reapplicant in addition to the stigma already on my application is insurmountable. I will still reapply since I am not ready to give up on my lifelong goal after just one application cycle. I need some advice:

1. In my situation, would you say that a postbac is more suitable or an SMP?
2. Do you think that a postbac or an SMP is worth doing in my gap year, in order to increase my chances of getting in? Since I can't change the incidents on my record, I figured that targeting my other weakness, my GPA, would be best to do next year before reapplying.
3. Do med schools look down upon a DIY post-bac vs a formal post-bac program?
4. Should I reapply right away this year (2017), or should I take another year off and then reapply in 2018? 2018 would be the last year that I can use my MCAT score before it expires.
5. I am 4 years out of undergrad but my undergrad premed office still offers alumni their services of writing committee letters. Given this info, would you say that it's better to still apply with a committee letter, or do you think it's possible for me to get in without a committee letter this time around? The reason I ask is because I don't want to chance having a poor committee letter.

Thank you so much community! Looking forward to your thoughts.

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[gallons]

So ur like 27? Take a year or even 2 taking classes to boost both s and c gpa. Then apply. No rush. Do it right.

 

[premed23456]

I'm 26 now, will be 27 in August. Thank you for your advice, I'm leaning more towards waiting a year before reapplying since it seems to be wiser, though I do feel like I'll be wondering a bit if I would have gotten in if enroll in a postbac program now and I reapplied right away this year. Oh well!

Does anyone have any thoughts on the other questions I asked?

Thank you again!

 

[Bus2MD]

If I were you I would probably apply to some SMP's that let you take courses with first year med students and has a direct linkage to the med school. The academic violation is a big hurdle to overcome. An SMP will give you the opportunity to interact with the med school faculty throughout the year and potentially eliminate any concerns about your character. The biggest issue with SMPs is that they cost the same as a full year in medical school and if you fail in the program you're done. If you don't want to go the SMP route then I would do a DIY-post bacc until you get your sGPA above 3.0. Either way you need to apply as broadly as possible to med schools. If you haven't applied to DO schools before you need to consider it.

If you think you can get a decent letter from the committee then do it. Most schools want the committee letter. If not then you need to look at the requirements of every school you're applying to. I wouldn't even think about applying this year. Take your time and put together the best application you can. You don't want to be a third time applicant just because you couldn't wait another year.

 

[premed23456]

Thank you for the advice! Sometimes I don't know what I'd do without SDN. So yes, sounds like I'll definitely need to wait a cycle and apply in May 2018 instead of this year, so I will do that. Plus, I suppose that if I don't get in that cycle, then that means I probably wouldn't have gotten in this cycle if I were to have applied.

Yes, the academic violation is one of the biggest issues on my application, bigger than the DUI as I understand it. I will continue trying to prove my academic capabilities and integrity over the next couple of years as I prepare to apply. Waiting one cycle to apply will also distance myself even further from those incidents on my record, putting them 9 years behind me by the time I matriculate if I am lucky enough to do so in fall 2019. I will also cast a wide net like you said, and continue applying to DO schools.

Two more questions: in which scenario would you choose an SMP over a post-bacc and vice-versa? These two types of programs and their respective purposes confuse me a bit, so if you have any insight would be greatly appreciated so that I can choose what is best for my scenario. Finally, is there any reason you are suggesting a DIY-post-bacc as opposed to a formal post-bacc program?

 

[Bus2MD]

Two more questions: in which scenario would you choose an SMP over a post-bacc and vice-versa? These two types of programs and their respective purposes confuse me a bit, so if you have any insight would be greatly appreciated so that I can choose what is best for my scenario. Finally, is there any reason you are suggesting a DIY-post-bacc as opposed to a formal post-bacc program?

To be considered a Special Masters Program (SMP) the program needs to be taught at a medical school and there needs to be a track record of graduates being accepted to the medical school. If it doesn't do those then it's just a post-bacc. Both programs have the same purpose, the SMP just works a lot better. You already have a research masters with a good grad gpa so I don't think a formal post bacc is going to help you much. Compare the cost of doing a formal post bacc to doing a DIY post bacc. If its the same then do whichever you want, but if the formal is going to cost a lot more I would just take classes on my own until my sGPA was above 3.0.

 

[premed23456]

Great, thank you @Bus2MD !

As of last night, my pre-med advisor threw another curve ball in my reapplication process. This is the pre-med advisor that discouraged me from reapplying. When I told her that I want to reapply and asked her the same questions I asked on this thread, she said-- fine you can reapply but there is no point in waiting until 2018 to reapply since you will be delaying your alternate career path if you do this, and there is no point right now in trying to improve your academics. She said to just get a job related to an alternate career path, continue volunteering and getting some healthcare exposure, and reapply this year. This is very different advice from what I've gotten from anyone else so far about how to best apply for medical school. Judging by my interactions with her in the past 4-5 years and this advice, I personally think that she has little faith in me. It sounds like she is preparing me for failure already since she is focusing this much on my alternate career instead of giving me the advice that would help me create the best application possible for medical school. I see all over SDN about discouraging pre-med advisors, and pre-meds who go forth with their plan anyway and end up being succeeding in medical school admissions. From what I know, oftentimes advisors have special interests in keeping their admissions numbers high, only encouraging the most promising candidates while doing the opposite to the others. I feel like that is my situation right now. Is this assessment of her response and my situation wrong?

I am inclined to politely suggest to her the advice you all have given me, of sitting out a year while I work on my GPA and then reapplying in 2018, since I am pretty convinced that her advice may not be right for me. What do you guys think?

Thank you so, so much again!

 

[gallons]

Anyone that tries to limit you is not your friend. Us telling you to wait a year is not limiting you. We say it because its the smart thing to do. Even though it means yet another year will pass, it is the smart thing to do.

That said, your DUI I think can be overlooked, but depending on what "academic violation" means, maybe, maybe not.

 

[premed23456]

I agree with everything you said. Thank you for the quick reply! The academic violation is a cheating allegation, which is a very huge deal. So I really don't know if it can be overcome. I've tried to demonstrate my integrity by doing well and staying clear of trouble in the last 2 years of undergrad and my masters program, and by doing some substantial leadership activities throughout that time and beyond. Knowing how much this will affect my medical school apps, this issue has been on the forefront of my mind for the past 7 years and I think I've done everything that I could to address this issue. When explaining it, I always try to maintain a mature tone, take responsibility, state what I've learned from it, and about how I have turned my life around since then. Another year of academics will hopefully additionally show that I still have academic integrity.

 

[gallons]

I agree with everything you said. Thank you for the quick reply! The academic violation is a cheating allegation, which is a very huge deal. So I really don't know if it can be overcome. I've tried to demonstrate my integrity by doing well and staying clear of trouble in the last 2 years of undergrad and my masters program, and by doing some substantial leadership activities throughout that time and beyond. Knowing how much this will affect my medical school apps, this issue has been on the forefront of my mind for the past 7 years and I think I've done everything that I could to address this issue. When explaining it, I always try to maintain a mature tone, take responsibility, state what I've learned from it, and about how I have turned my life around since then. Another year of academics will hopefully additionally show that I still have academic integrity.

Allegation? So you did not admit to it? It is on your record? Your situation does sound unique, so that can only be helpful imo.

 

[premed23456]

Well, I was accused of doing something that I didn't actually do and I tried to fight it in this school's trial of my offense as well as in an appeal, but the end result was a guilty conviction and it is on my record at that school. So I do have to explain myself in medical school applications. Of course in the explanation that I provide on my medical school applications, I don't point fingers at anyone and instead objectively describe the situation, show that I've moved on from it, have learned my lessons, and have grown as a result of it.

 

[Bus2MD]

Yeah it sounds like she's trying to get rid of you. If she won't write you a committee letter for next year then move on. Get your own letters and apply when your app is ready. If you apply now some schools might throw out your app when they see the low sGPA. Do yourself a favor and take a year to bring up the sGPA and save up enough money to apply to every DO school in the country. With your high MCAT, good grad GPA, decent uGPA and research experience I think someone will give you a chance.

 

[premed23456]

Great, thank you all! She said that if I want to reapply through her pre-med committee, I can (she will write me a letter). Since I get the feeling she's been trying to get rid of me though, I wonder if I should still get her letter. I'm not sure if I'm risking getting a bad letter from her if I do decide to get her letter.

 

[premed23456]

OKAY so I just realized today that my MCAT score may be expiring.. I took it in Aug 2015 and if I were to sit out a cycle of applications and apply in 2018 for entry in fall 2019, then I've read on here that at most schools, they only accept scores that are within 3 years of matriculation date, making my MCAT score too old. Is this right? If so, I can now either choose to apply this year with the current score or sit out this year, re-take it, and apply next cycle. The thought of re-taking it is dreadful so I'm inclined to apply this cycle. Do you still think I should sit out a cycle before re-applying despite having to re-take the MCAT?

 

[750335]

Hmm tricky, but I actually think we should start with a few things like what schools you applied to and when, before we talk smps and postbacs.

FWIW there are "tons" of people on this site with either a dui or academic violation, and fewer with both, but still enough that I think you can actually get through both.

 

[premed23456]

Thanks for the support tskiihii!

I applied to:

Tufts
GWU
Temple
Drexel
Tulane
Meharry
Howard
Loyola Stritch
U of IL
EVMS
VCU
Emory
UMD
NYMC
Columbia
U of Washington

As for DO, I applied to:

PCOM
UNE COM
KCU COM

Ah I'm really having such a hard time right now figuring out whether or not to apply this year with the current MCAT or to apply next year but have to re-take it. I don't know which is worse because I don't know if I'm fit to reapply this year. Decisions!!!

 

[750335]

Thanks for the support tskiihii!

I applied to:

Tufts
GWU
Temple
Drexel
Tulane
Meharry
Howard
Loyola Stritch
U of IL
EVMS
VCU
Emory
UMD
NYMC
Columbia
U of Washington

As for DO, I applied to:

PCOM
UNE COM
KCU COM

Ah I'm really having such a hard time right now figuring out whether or not to apply this year with the current MCAT or to apply next year but have to re-take it. I don't know which is worse because I don't know if I'm fit to reapply this year. Decisions!!!

Looking at this, I actually think your school list may have been the problem. Which of those two interviewed you? (You can PM me if you like). Not to be rude, but for your stats, many of those schools had very slim odds from the start.

 

[premed23456]

Looking at this, I actually think your school list may have been the problem. Which of those two interviewed you? (You can PM me if you like). Not to be rude, but for your stats, many of those schools had very slim odds from the start.

You're totally right about that. I don't think I understood just how competitive this process is to begin with, but now that I know, I plan on eliminating these higher-tier schools and adding on a lot more lower-mid-tier schools. I think I had a little too much hope lol. The ones who interviewed me were EVMS and PCOM.

 

[750335]

You're totally right about that. I don't think I understood just how competitive this process is to begin with, but now that I know, I plan on eliminating these higher-tier schools and adding on a lot more lower-mid-tier schools. I think I had a little too much hope lol. The ones who interviewed me were EVMS and PCOM.

Yeah, I honestly think that school list did you in.

Are you URM? Unless you are URM or have extensive experience in underserved areas, mission based schools like Howard /Meharry are DOA
Judging just by sheer number of apps, Tufts, GWU, Tulane, U of IL, UMD, Emory, and Columbia are low yield by default, especially with your stats
Unless you are from virginia/washington - U of Wash, VCU and EVMS were also a long shot
I don't have msar anymore, but off the top of my head, those are the ones I can eliminate right away, and obviously too few DO schools.

All that considered, if you have the money, I'd say reapply this year but make a more realistic school list, and apply to way more schools DO and MD. Also apply early, and make sure your LORs are strong. I'd also avoid committee letters if I were you, you are a few years out, what could they possibly know about you to write a strong letter. Get one or two science letters, and then have people you have shadowed/done research with, employers, more recent professors to write your references. You already have red flags, nothing else in your app can be mediocre. Get more ECs and volunteer experience, clinical and otherwise. That is my advice but n = 1, at the end of the day, you know your situation best.

 

[DrMidlife]

Your school list is not good. Instate publics in multiple states, prestige schools, HBCUs (are you URM?). The low tiers and DOs are more appropriate. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

Your premed adviser is only responsible for applying the traditional yardstick to premeds. This person gets paid maybe $60k per year. Expecting this person to have the perspective of an MD/JD excom is not realistic. For this person to give you any help at all, to have the cojones to tell you to do something else, to suggest a plan for you, is actually pretty cool.

There are two stories. One is the story you put on your app. The other is the one you tell yourself. The first is informed by the second. And the story you're telling yourself is frustrating to see, to this old fart who reviews med school apps.

Nobody cares if you think your academic infraction was fair. The people who have the authority to put an academic infraction on your permanent record don't do so recklessly. They know they can kill your career. They don't kill careers for fun. The opinion of school authorities who have chosen to mark a student simply outweighs any premed's story about false allegations or whatever. The time to hire a lawyer was 6-7 years ago. You just aren't going to win this. The stress of med school and residency dwarfs any stress you've ever been under, and you grabbed the worst tool to deal with much less stress. The professionalism committee had to deal with a dozen med students last year who grabbed a bad tool. A record of being a bad-tool-grabber makes the adcoms who also serve on the professionalism committee send you straight to the rejection pile.

Add a DUI to this? Your character, on paper, is just gone. Gone. 60% of med school applicants get rejected every year. There's exactly no motivation to give extraordinary extra consideration to anybody in that pile. Everybody in that pile is a heartbreaker. But the app with a DUI and an academic infraction, from 7 years ago, that's not breaking hearts. You're not in the "youthful indiscretion" category.

So. 7 years ago you made incredibly dumb choices. In those 7 years you've done academics and ECs that would make a traditional premed look really compelling. A traditional premed with no red flags has benefit of the doubt on character issues. A traditional premed can worry about school location. You bear a completely different burden of proof, along with the traditional burden. You're done with the traditional burden, other than dealing with MCAT expiration.

So what to do, as a double red flag premed? In your shoes, I'd do 2 things. 1) Work at a minimum wage humble-as-hell healthcare job for 2-3 years while continuing to do part time academics. Hose down stretchers. Clean bedpans. 2) Do that work at/near an academic institution where you have reasonable odds of getting a med school to give you the time of day, where you can build relationships, where you can establish a reputation, where you become a known entity. After maybe a year, maybe start asking for adcom input on your case. By doing these 2 things, imho you improve your chances from 0% to maybe 5%. I don't see your odds getting better than 5%.

And then your red flags are still on your ERAS.

tl;dr: Your premed adviser is pretty smart. I agree. Find a career that isn't so profoundly based on integrity and trust.

Best of luck to you.

 

[premed23456]

Thank you @DrMidlife. I'll take everything you said into consideration. One question is, ERAS asks for info on institutional actions? Would good work done in med school at that point have no potential of redeeming something that happened ~11 years ago?

 

[libertyyne]

In addition to what @Dr.Midlife has stated, no one is talking about the obvious.
ugpa 3.3
sgpa 2.89
Acceptance rate of 36%.
Add in some character red flags like the Academic violation /DUI and the odds quickly approach zero .

I think your stats and inappropriate school list are also to blame.

1 year of 4.0 and an MCAT retake of 514+ coupled with a good school list and app timing are your best options.

 

[gallons]

Just don't give up and remember opinions are like farts, every generates them and most are stinky.

 

[premed23456]

Just don't give up and remember opinions are like farts, every generates them and most are stinky.

Lol thanks @gallons. I think I've become immune to the judgment that comes with this sort of history.

But thank you to everyone who's been contributing to this conversation, really, no matter if you've given me hope or a harsh reality check. All the opinions are valuable in the end, so I appreciate you all. I'll take all of this into consideration and figure out a game plan.