Non Traditional Mature Career Change Student

[HealingGrace]

Hi there!

I am new to SDN and am thrilled to hear so much encouragement from fellow mature students. I am starting a post bacc in January as a non-traditional, career change, mature student, hopefully matriculating into medical school at the age of 38 in a couple of years. I am in an unrelated field to health services, but I feel strongly about my path toward healing medicine and preventative care. I see the advantages that come with experience from older students and I would love to hear more about differing paths into medicine.

What haunts me is my undergraduate GPA (2.5), but I will work hard toward a 4.0 science gpa and a stellar mcat score and I have quite a bit of leadership leaning extra curricular including working at a respite care center in SF, triage team at a homeless shelter, and working with rehabilitated, previously convicted women and re-introducing them into the workforce. I plan on shadowing a doctor (friend), getting more clinical work under my belt and volunteering with medicalbrigades.org/ this summer.

I know that it is an uphill battle, but I am looking forward to working my tail off, actually being excited to learn all of it, and simply enjoying the arduous but meaningful journey! If nothing comes of it after years of studying at the post bacc level, I will at least know I tried my damnedest and I feel pretty good about the effort.

I have been hesitant to share with certain friends my path back to school because as a 35 yo, many people who I have shared this with are trying to persuade me to not go into it because I have a successful meaningful business now, while others have said they certainly see me capable of being a physician. At this age, I have thought it through extensively and know with certainty this is my path.

Any advice, encouragement, or anything you can add to this would be very much welcomed, including a mentor!

Thanks everyone!

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[twospadz]

Do not go. You are in your late thirties. You should be enjoying your life. Volunteer at a hospital or become a EMT if you want to enjoy health services industry. If you were 10 years younger I would say yes. By now you would have been a doctor if you done so. Going now will be very hard on your body mentally and physically.

 

[2010houston]

Good luck! It is an incredibly difficult path, but also an incredibly rewarding one. This is a great site for resources on applying etc. I matriculated at 31 and am now a resident; feel free to message me if you like.

 

[Unico]

My mentor started his MD journey at 40. It's not easy, as others have warned, but best wishes to you.


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[Promethean]

I started med school in my late 30s.

It was the right thing for me. I sold a business and left a great paying career to do this. I had a low GPA from my first round of university, followed by a 3.8 in a nursing school that didn't count toward GPA calculations... But I brought it up significantly through a DIY post bacc at community college without doing retakes. If you go the DO route and do retake your lowest grades, you can bring your 2.5 up considerably in a very short time.

I also didn't tell a lot of friends until it was a done deal. Lots of people will tell you what you can't do. They mean, what they can't do. If you want this, you can absolutely do it. I'd say 15-20% of my class is over 35, and I'm far from the oldest. Our maturity and experience is valued by our classmates and the faculty, and I think we have an easier time of it than the traditional students who've never really worked a professional job or spent any time outside academia.

 

[HealingGrace]

Thank you so much for the words of encouragement! I want to protect the journey and safeguard it from pernicious words, as there certainly is a psychological element in making such an about-face turn in career, at this age. I know that I need to be steadfast in my endeavors and if there is one characteristic my closest friends and family would use, it would be endurance.

@Promethean, how old were you when you started? I would possibly be selling my business to focus on school, as you did. I won't have to worry about funding my education. Which medical school did you end up choosing, as it sounds like they are open to mature students with the percentage you shared? I have heard of schools who are more open to non-traditional, mature students. Anyone at such a school? How did you maneuver not sharing your path till you were in med school? I did a small sampling, but basically whenever I used a vernacular such as "studying the body, health and nutrition," people were very excited for me. On the reverse side, whenever I mentioned "medicine," I got discouragement and a big "why?" I understand it's just a projection of their own thoughts on how they feel about themselves or medicine, but I want to protect that space.

I am not blithe about the challenges in pursuing medicine, I have family in it, a few of my past life parters are practicing physicians, and I even was with someone during their residency so I understand how difficult it can be. I hope to utilize and learn as much as I can from those who have blazed the trail before me. Many have said it would be such a long and difficult road, why put myself through this, but I can not imagine doing anything else. The thought of doing anything other than working toward medicine is what saddens me. As it stands, I am excited to at least give it my all. With that said, I would love to hear more from others on how they came to decide medicine, what makes them a good physician or physician in training, what they did when they were feeling discouraged or low, if anyone has had to apply more than once to medical school or who has had an uphill battle with bad undergraduate grades and still went on to medical school.

Lastly, I found this prospectivedoctor.com/chance-predictor/ has anyone ever used it or something similar? I wonder how accurate it is, because it shows that someone such as myself with a haunting undergraduate past can still get into medical school!! Thank you 2010houston and smgraff for the positive words.

 

[esob]

you said mature.....LoL. At 38 you've barely started living I won't be starting med school until 43 and I still outpace guys half my age at the gym (admittedly, having a bad *** personal trainer helps). I observe students in my premed classes wheezing from climbing 3 flights of stairs in the life sciences building; I suspect these are the people who think med school is too physically taxing beyond 35 I suppose if you ate like most of the college kids do and fail to exercise regularly it would be tough, but I think that would be the case if you were 25 as well.

 

[Promethean]

Thank you so much for the words of encouragement! I want to protect the journey and safeguard it from pernicious words, as there certainly is a psychological element in making such an about-face turn in career, at this age. I know that I need to be steadfast in my endeavors and if there is one characteristic my closest friends and family would use, it would be endurance.

@Promethean, how old were you when you started? I would possibly be selling my business to focus on school, as you did. I won't have to worry about funding my education. Which medical school did you end up choosing, as it sounds like they are open to mature students with the percentage you shared? I have heard of schools who are more open to non-traditional, mature students. Anyone at such a school? How did you maneuver not sharing your path till you were in med school? I did a small sampling, but basically whenever I used a vernacular such as "studying the body, health and nutrition," people were very excited for me. On the reverse side, whenever I mentioned "medicine," I got discouragement and a big "why?" I understand it's just a projection of their own thoughts on how they feel about themselves or medicine, but I want to protect that space.

I am not blithe about the challenges in pursuing medicine, I have family in it, a few of my past life parters are practicing physicians, and I even was with someone during their residency so I understand how difficult it can be. I hope to utilize and learn as much as I can from those who have blazed the trail before me. Many have said it would be such a long and difficult road, why put myself through this, but I can not imagine doing anything else. The thought of doing anything other than working toward medicine is what saddens me. As it stands, I am excited to at least give it my all. With that said, I would love to hear more from others on how they came to decide medicine, what makes them a good physician or physician in training, what they did when they were feeling discouraged or low, if anyone has had to apply more than once to medical school or who has had an uphill battle with bad undergraduate grades and still went on to medical school.

Lastly, I found this prospectivedoctor.com/chance-predictor/ has anyone ever used it or something similar? I wonder how accurate it is, because it shows that someone such as myself with a haunting undergraduate past can still get into medical school!! Thank you 2010houston and smgraff for the positive words.

I've been shy about disclosing my exact age but I was 37 when I matriculated. I decided at 35 that I was going to do it, and then I moved heaven and earth to make it happen.

I have found that DO schools are friendly to nontraditional students. I'm at LECOM, in Erie. I like it quite a lot. There are definitely some things about this school that are troublesome to some folks. They have a lot of strict rules about not eating in classrooms, having to wear dress clothes, and having to actually go to lecture. For traditional students who are fresh out of undergrad where there were no such rules, it seems really draconian. To those of us who have worked before, it is not that big a deal. I had to wear certain clothes to work, just like I couldn't eat in the OR, and if I didn't show up when they were expecting me, I would lose the job. That perspective on things is a reason that I think my school in particular seems to like nontraditional students.

 

[Goro]

Some of my all time best students have been in their 30s and 40s. I graduated a stellar one at 50 last year.

Just remember that this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Hi there!

I am new to SDN and am thrilled to hear so much encouragement from fellow mature students. I am starting a post bacc in January as a non-traditional, career change, mature student, hopefully matriculating into medical school at the age of 38 in a couple of years. I am in an unrelated field to health services, but I feel strongly about my path toward healing medicine and preventative care. I see the advantages that come with experience from older students and I would love to hear more about differing paths into medicine.

What haunts me is my undergraduate GPA (2.5), but I will work hard toward a 4.0 science gpa and a stellar mcat score and I have quite a bit of leadership leaning extra curricular including working at a respite care center in SF, triage team at a homeless shelter, and working with rehabilitated, previously convicted women and re-introducing them into the workforce. I plan on shadowing a doctor (friend), getting more clinical work under my belt and volunteering with medicalbrigades.org/ this summer.

I know that it is an uphill battle, but I am looking forward to working my tail off, actually being excited to learn all of it, and simply enjoying the arduous but meaningful journey! If nothing comes of it after years of studying at the post bacc level, I will at least know I tried my damnedest and I feel pretty good about the effort.

I have been hesitant to share with certain friends my path back to school because as a 35 yo, many people who I have shared this with are trying to persuade me to not go into it because I have a successful meaningful business now, while others have said they certainly see me capable of being a physician. At this age, I have thought it through extensively and know with certainty this is my path.

Any advice, encouragement, or anything you can add to this would be very much welcomed, including a mentor!

Thanks everyone!

 

[HealingGrace]

Some of my all time best students have been in their 30s and 40s. I graduated a stellar one at 50 last year.

Just remember that this is a marathon, not a sprint.

Thank you so much @Goro ! I am much better at marathons than sprints I would image professors can appreciate the plethora of experience older students who have lived some life could bring to the table. Thank you for this! What do you think of my chances of getting into school are for MD? Do you mind if I ask which school you are currently teaching at?

I am open to DO school as well. Anyone want to speak to the advantages of DO over MD other than difference in the process of acceptance. I don't just want to focus on getting accepted, I want to make sure the process allows me to become the best physician I can be for the patients.

Thank you! This is all so helpful to me! I appreciate you taking the time as I know how busy you must be!

 

[Goro]

The fastest path for you to become a doctor will be to retake all F/D/C science coursework, do well on MCAT, and apply to DO schools.


IF you're boning for the MD degree, there are MD schools that reward reinvention. You'll need to ace all the classic pre-reqs, and ace either a post-bac (which can be DIY) or a SMP, ideally one given at a med school. Then also ace MCAT (513 or better, 33+ on the old scale).


Do not apply until you have the best possible app. Med schools aren't going anywhere, and, in fact, by the time you apply, several more schools will have opened their doors.

What do you think of my chances of getting into school are for MD?


I could tell you, but then I'd have to reject you!
Do you mind if I ask which school you are currently teaching at?

DO schools allow you to replace poor grades with higher ones merely by retaking a course and doing better. MD schools will average grades. Thus, DO schools are more willing to reward reinvention. the median GPAs and MXCAT scores for DO schools' matriculants are lower than MD (about 3.4 vs 3.7, and ~25-26 vs 31). Hence, someone who is less competitive for mD schools can still have a good chance to get into a DO school. Both, BTW, will handle med school just fine.

The advantages for MD over DO is that the career prospects are better. Competitive specialties like Gen Surg, Derm, Opthal, Orthopedics, are very hard for DOs to get residencies for, and in fact,program directors at very competitive or top residencies (like IM at NYU) will not even accept applications from DO grads.

But if you're interested in Family Practice, Psychiatry, Peds, IM, Neuro, PM&R, Path, Anaesthesiology or Radiology, the DO route is much easier.

I am open to DO school as well. Anyone want to speak to the advantages of DO over MD other than difference in the process of acceptance. I don't just want to focus on getting accepted, I want to make sure the process allows me to become the best physician I can be for the patients.

 

[HealingGrace]

lol I love how you offer this advice without any consideration of context.



So MD is probably not realistic. I believe there is an early 50s girl applying this year with your stats on the forum - forget her name but I don't think a 2.5 is going to translate into MD at 35.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321494/data/factstablea16.pdf

Getting a 4.0 in science is extremely difficult, depending on where you go. You'll run into that professor who is 60 and who has zero publications and who grade deflates to take it out on everyone, that TA who is crushing on a bad in a lab and biases grading, etc. I was a 3.6 economics student at a top 50 - organic was an order of magnitude more challenging than the most demanding UG course I took...and biochem was another step up after that.

Even if you get the 4.0, with MD it barely moves a CGPA as low as 2.5

California residency (I'm assuming) also hurts because California cares about its bureaucrats and illegal immigrants more than it cares about its residents. Its the worst state for residency.

35 will also generate soft age discrimination.

DO is much more accessible. Specifically, they grade replace (you got a C before and now you got an A, they only count the A) so you could likely apply mid-late next cycle to DO and be competitive...you need a 3.3 or so to be competitive at DO. There's generally less in state preference with DO and there's less age discrimination.

Thank you for this! Are you currently in DO school? Where are you/status in terms of school/residency/practicing? What has your process been like? Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

 

[HealingGrace]

The fastest path for you to become a doctor will be to retake all F/D/C science coursework, do well on MCAT, and apply to DO schools.


IF you're boning for the MD degree, there are MD schools that reward reinvention. You'll need to ace all the classic pre-reqs, and ace either a post-bac (which can be DIY) or a SMP, ideally one given at a med school. Then also ace MCAT (513 or better, 33+ on the old scale).


Do not apply until you have the best possible app. Med schools aren't going anywhere, and, in fact, by the time you apply, several more schools will have opened their doors.

What do you think of my chances of getting into school are for MD?


I could tell you, but then I'd have to reject you!
Do you mind if I ask which school you are currently teaching at?

DO schools allow you to replace poor grades with higher ones merely by retaking a course and doing better. MD schools will average grades. Thus, DO schools are more willing to reward reinvention. the median GPAs and MXCAT scores for DO schools' matriculants are lower than MD (about 3.4 vs 3.7, and ~25-26 vs 31). Hence, someone who is less competitive for mD schools can still have a good chance to get into a DO school. Both, BTW, will handle med school just fine.

The advantages for MD over DO is that the career prospects are better. Competitive specialties like Gen Surg, Derm, Opthal, Orthopedics, are very hard for DOs to get residencies for, and in fact,program directors at very competitive or top residencies (like IM at NYU) will not even accept applications from DO grads.

But if you're interested in Family Practice, Psychiatry, Peds, IM, Neuro, PM&R, Path, Anaesthesiology or Radiology, the DO route is much easier.

I am open to DO school as well. Anyone want to speak to the advantages of DO over MD other than difference in the process of acceptance. I don't just want to focus on getting accepted, I want to make sure the process allows me to become the best physician I can be for the patients.

I am in no rush, I want to do it right. Thank you for this!

 

[HealingGrace]

you said mature.....LoL. At 38 you've barely started living I won't be starting med school until 43 and I still outpace guys half my age at the gym (admittedly, having a bad *** personal trainer helps). I observe students in my premed classes wheezing from climbing 3 flights of stairs in the life sciences building; I suspect these are the people who think med school is too physically taxing beyond 35 I suppose if you ate like most of the college kids do and fail to exercise regularly it would be tough, but I think that would be the case if you were 25 as well.

Endurance doesn't necessarily mean physical strength, though that certainly is important. Luckily, I eat very healthy In equal measure, it includes psychological, spiritual, and mental fortitude, especially during times of failure and adversity, moments of weakness, doubts, as most physicians or physicians in training must face.

I'm a nobody - just finished a postbac. I have done an exhaustive amount of research on the subject.

Note that with my age and stats (3.7 cGPA, 3.8 sGPA) and community I consider myself a marginal MD candidate. I'm going to apply to MD but not counting on it. MD admissions are simply brutal.

DO is much more accessible in every respect.

What made you decide not to apply to DO school as well? Or is that a backup. How did you like your Post bacc program? I start in January and am very excited, and have been studying the mcats for fun the past 4 months.

Thank you for the additional info, I like to gather the background of the person advising so I can take that into considering.

 

[Goro]

Faculty member at a DO school. Close to 20 years experience and as much on the admissions committee as well

Thank you for this! Are you currently in DO school? Where are you/status in terms of school/residency/practicing? What has your process been like? Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

 

[Goro]

If any DO School had 60% match rate, it would be closed by COCA. DO'S match at the same rates as MDs. The NRMP rate is lower for DOs because that's only for ACGME. Throw in AOA matches and the rate zooms up.

I loved my postbac...fascinating stuff. I've been doing an informal one - there are a few headaches with this but I've only spent ~10k on classes instead of the 50-100k you spend on formal ones.

I'm applying DO as well - but I'm nervous about DO because of matching - some of the programs have low placement rates (eg 60%). Dropping 250k+opportunity costs on a degree => expected placement.

 

[esob]

Endurance doesn't necessarily mean physical strength, though that certainly is important. Luckily, I eat very healthy In equal measure, it includes psychological, spiritual, and mental fortitude, especially during times of failure and adversity, moments of weakness, doubts, as most physicians or physicians in training must face..

Yeah, the others you mentioned I don't even worry about, I've already more than demonstrated I'm covered in those areas. I only referenced physical fitness because it is the one aspect that almost universally declines with age and which typically deteriorates the other aspects you mentioned

 

[HealingGrace]

Faculty member at a DO school. Close to 20 years experience and as much on the admissions committee as well

Is there a reason why DO schools are not ranked? is that intentional? or is there a good place to reference/compare different DO schools?

Another question that popped into my head, I live in california, but have been told several times that it will be harder to get into school due to my location since the med schools here are fairly tough to get into. Hypothetically, if I were to move to another state to do my post-bacc, are there states you would highly recommend I look into? How much more inclined are med schools apt to accept in-state students?

And this is not for me, but for a friend who is applying to med school now, is it better to go to an international MD program or domestic DO? Personally, I love the mpre holistic approach to medicine and it seems more and more disciplines are leaning toward an integrative practice so I would certainly be honored to be in a DO program, but my friend is having a hard time deciding this for herself since the letters MD seem quite important to her. Which would provide a better education and thus allow for a better physician in the future? Ive heard matching for int'l schools is extremely tough.

 

[Goro]

Not ranked? By US Snooze and Worst report? If that's what you mean, no one in medical education takes those seriously, except Deans.

Is there a reason why DO schools are not ranked? is that intentional? or is there a good place to reference/compare different DO schools?

Several states have state MD schools that are particularly lucky for in-state residents. TX is probably the best, but there's also, KS, ND, SD, NE, AR, NM, AL, MS, CT, MA, GA, SC, NC, FL, KY, IA and KY.

The private schools, much less so.

Another question that popped into my head, I live in california, but have been told several times that it will be harder to get into school due to my location since the med schools here are fairly tough to get into. Hypothetically, if I were to move to another state to do my post-bacc, are there states you would highly recommend I look into? How much more inclined are med schools apt to accept in-state students?

Your should go to an international MD school if she really likes the idea of being unemployed and deeply in debt. The match rates are about 50%, which would get domestic schools closed and sued. If your friend is boning for the MD, then she should improve her app and stay domestic. She should research this issue among these forums. Here's two stories for her to look at:

https://milliondollarmistake.wordpress.com/

http://www.tameersiddiqui.com/medical-school-at-sgu



And this is not for me, but for a friend who is applying to med school now, is it better to go to an international MD program or domestic DO? Personally, I love the mpre holistic approach to medicine and it seems more and more disciplines are leaning toward an integrative practice so I would certainly be honored to be in a DO program, but my friend is having a hard time deciding this for herself since the letters MD seem quite important to her. Which would provide a better education and thus allow for a better physician in the future? Ive heard matching for int'l schools is extremely tough.[/QUOTE]

 

[CyrilFiggis]

I would possibly be selling my business to focus on school, as you did. I won't have to worry about funding my education.

I'm kind of curious about this. Are you saying you wouldn't have to worry about funding your pre-med and med school? If so, I'm marveled by your decision. Just running the back of envelope calculations:

18-24 month post-bacc = $10K-35K
18-24 month living expenses in SF ($25k/year) = $50K

4 years of med school @ $41K/year (this is the average of the average in-state and private) = $204k
4 years of living expenses in med school ($25k/year) = $100k

Total = ~$350K

You seem to have a financially secure career that you yourself called meaningful. Given all that, what is your reason for deciding to become a physician? Is the other work and volunteering not fulfilling enough? What's the story here? This is entirely rhetorical, but realize this is what you're personal statement will need to be about. Also, call me cynical, but leaving all that to pursue medicine while starting with a 2.5 GPA seems risky. But if you really think you can do it, best of luck.

 

[HealingGrace]

I'm kind of curious about this. Are you saying you wouldn't have to worry about funding your pre-med and med school? If so, I'm marveled by your decision. Just running the back of envelope calculations:

18-24 month post-bacc = $10K-35K
18-24 month living expenses in SF ($25k/year) = $50K

4 years of med school @ $41K/year (this is the average of the average in-state and private) = $204k
4 years of living expenses in med school ($25k/year) = $100k

Total = ~$350K

You seem to have a financially secure career that you yourself called meaningful. Given all that, what is your reason for deciding to become a physician? Is the other work and volunteering not fulfilling enough? What's the story here? This is entirely rhetorical, but realize this is what you're personal statement will need to be about. Also, call me cynical, but leaving all that to pursue medicine while starting with a 2.5 GPA seems risky. But if you really think you can do it, best of luck.

Indeed.

Risky? Perhaps this is your landscape of life? not everyone. Why do you want to be a physician? Some make life decisions with risk aversion in mind. Again not everyone. Some go into professions for monetary payoff. We certainly know going into medicine is not always the most monetarily sound decision, and we all know that is a poor reason to go into medicine, because of the long stretch of schooling, and making essentially $5 an hour during residency, when all is said and done. But, if a person is without any reasonable doubt in their mind that they can do something and do it well, what's to stop them? (other than not ever getting into school, yes).

This is not to brag, but to explain my financial situation-- I bought a flat in SF (cash) when I was 30, from a business I built from scratch and, as we all know, the sf climate has been good to home owners, and if I need to sell it to fund my education, so be it. I worked my ass off for this life I built, my reward to myself now is to try this out. If I go broke trying to doing it, felix culpa. I can always fall back on my past career if med school doesn't come to fruition, as my income potential doesn't magically disappear into thin air, merely because I tried for a few years to get into medical school, you realize. My job is meaningful, but it no longer sustains me and with the cognitive dissonance I am feeling, I dont know how anyone could go on living a fully authentic healthy life without trying to align their values and their desires into a life they see befitting. I am thrilled to be alive, I am thrilled I want this so very badly, I am thrilled I am happy and healthy, I am thrilled to be given a chance at this.

What I have is a unique situation, and I am persistent and I have solid reasons for why I want to go into medicine, to be shared with admissions at a latter date. I agree, my biggest battle is that haunting undergrad GPA, and that alone may not allow me this path, but if I am honored with a face to face interview, that is where I will shine and my experiences from my past will help espouse that. I can't imagine not trying to pursue this dream of mine, because I feel strongly I would be an incredible physician to serve patients, I feel blessed that I have the ability and wherewithal to at least TRY. If I die tomorrow, I die happy, I die happy that I at least tried.

 

[WGSgrad]

Also, and I hope this doesn't come off snarky, but you, and your friend, should make friends with the search feature on SDN. Many of the questions that will pop into your head as you become a neurotic premed (as lots of us are) won't be new and have been discussed ad nausea on SDN. Searching is one of the best ways to get the information you need to make a path and forge a way forward.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Entadus]

Lord knows we need enthusiastic and selfless people to enter medicine. Best of luck to you, OP

 

[HealingGrace]

Lord knows we need enthusiastic and selfless people to enter medicine. Best of luck to you, OP

Thank you for the words of encouragement! I am so grateful for each and every one of these and reminds me of there are great people out there.