Non-traditional Pre-Med in need of advice

[RKBrumbelow]

So I have been reading the forums trying to get a grasp of everything that needs to be done and in what order and I have come tot he conclusion I have a lot to do and a short time to do it with.

Briefly,
I am a 42 year old soon to be (as in this fall) premed student at a noncompetitive state university. In my previous existence I had a strong background in Physics and Chemistry from 28 years ago when I lived in the UK, and have taken a few higher level Chem classes since. I went into IT in the 90's and became a teacher for about 5 years (Advanced Technology Adult Education think systems engineer training) before I was knocked out of the labour pool by a brain tumour and as I put it a "Practicum in Refractory Psychiatry". In short I am returning to the university I left 20 years ago to finish off my undergrad degree.

I tend to test well, or at least used to, as I was one of those kids who scored a 1390 on his SAT when he was 12. The "Practicum" mentioned above changed some of that, but with therapy and some experimental treatments it seems as though my brain is recovering well. Well enough that my IQ is measuring back in the 90% and I hope it will continue to recover back in to the 99.999999% where I used to be (185+) only time and effort will tell.

So all of that fodder above being said it looks like I need to prep myself for the MCAt at the end of my Junior year (so spring/summer of 2016) and I need to get in research time as well as shadowing experience. I have contacted our local VA (I am strongly considering applying to the AMC upon graduation from Medical School) to do shadowing, but have yet to hear back from them. I have also contacted a local researcher doing work to see if I can volunteer as part of his staff and get some research experience. IFF I cannot get local medical research experience would research in Chemistry be a viable alternative or does it need to be medical research?

I am hoping to get into a school like MCG but I want to do research so that would be their MD/PhD program. I would prefer to stay in Georgia so I have a few options, my next bet would be to head back to North Texas where I grew up. However Neither MCG or Schools like UTSW, Baylor etc are not exactly low tier schools, and again I want to do research.

In summary:
So what obvious things am I missing?
Can other science research compensate for lack of medical research time?
I am assuming I need a couple hundred hours shadow time. That plus research time I can do 500 hours in a year if I find the right fits.
Oh and I know the new MCAT has more areas of soft sciences does anyone have an idea of how many Sociology /Psychology classes I should try for or is it simply every hour I can manage and not drop GPA points while getting all the prerequisites?

Obviously if this post is in the wrong area, please move it and advise me where it should be. Otherwise, let the challenge of the out of school for over a decade, going back in a different field under circumstances education begin!

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[genericpremedstudent]

42 years old.
+ 4 years of undergrad
+ 8 years for MD/PhD
+ 3 years for residency

you can expect to be making a real paycheck by the age of 57. Will that give you enough time to pay back an assumed 12 years of student loan debt before you are able to retire?

 

[RKBrumbelow]

42 years old.
+ 4 years of undergrad
+ 8 years for MD/PhD
+ 3 years for residency

you can expect to be making a real paycheck by the age of 57. Will that give you enough time to pay back an assumed 12 years of student loan debt before you are able to retire?

genericpremedstudent,
A legitimate concern, and you are close only a small correction:
2 Years of undergrad but 4 years of residency (Psychiatry) so you are only off by 1 and that could be sucked up by the PhD portion of the program making it a wash.

The advantages I have are:
That I will not be incurring any debt during the cycle and
Psychiatrists have one of the oldest retirement ages in the medical field, I should be able to practice for 20+ years heck my grandfather was a practicing dentist (and the first Airborne dentist) until he was in his late 80's. And if I die of old age in my office helping people, well... I would not be the first psychiatrist in my area to have done so.

That being said I have made the same argument more than once to my advocates. I know it is not going to be an easy journey, nor is it a short one. But, I do have to believe that it is both a necessary one and a profitable one, both in terms of monies and more importantly patients.

Of note: looking at threads titled similarly to mine there is LOT of arrogance shown by older non traditional students. I understand that there needs to be some, you have to have confidence that you can contribute more than a younger student when you accept that you will be taking, or at least trying to take, a med school seat from a much younger individual that quite frankly could practice for 20 years more than I can. I do not want to come across that way. I do have a lot of first person experience that can be of use later on, but these days rtaher than the rockstar I was, my brain is far closer to average. Maybe that will improve with time and treatment, maybe it has peaked and will only decline, but yes I do have unique experiences to share and since 'There is no "Try"' (thank you master Yoda) and "Losers always whine about their best" (thank you Sean Connery), there is only Do.

 

[ComputerGuy365]

42??? That's quite late. I've heard people who are 30 or 35 trying to go to medical school and doing it, but 42? You will have so little practice time and the debt will accumulate. Are you sure you truly want to do this? An MD alone takes enough time. Why an MD/PHD? In the end, it's your life, but understand that you are going to be in school a long time. Also, what is pulling you towards a career in medicine? How about you just get a PhD and be a researcher. It seems like that would fit you better.

 

[Dr. Jan Itor]

In summary:
So what obvious things am I missing?
Can other science research compensate for lack of medical research time?
I am assuming I need a couple hundred hours shadow time. That plus research time I can do 500 hours in a year if I find the right fits.
Oh and I know the new MCAT has more areas of soft sciences does anyone have an idea of how many Sociology /Psychology classes I should try for or is it simply every hour I can manage and not drop GPA points while getting all the prerequisites?

1. We have a specific non-trad forum here that you might want to read through. I know it helped me a ton when I was first thinking about med school.
2. I know that science research is usually acceptable for MD, but I'm not sure about a joint MD/PhD program.
3. A couple hundred hours of shadowing is overkill. I think the average is around 50 or so. You do want a couple hundred hours of clinical volunteering (give or take.)
4. An Intro to Psych and Intro to Sociology is what's recommended for the MCAT 2015, although I know several people who self-taught those classes during test prep.

I will ask, why MD/Ph.D? If research is your main interest, why not just do a straight Ph.D. program? Around 5 years and little debt, if any. There's no guarantee of matching into Psych, so would you be happy doing 8 years to go into Family or Internal Medicine?

 

[Iridescent]

1.

I will ask, why MD/Ph.D? If research is your main interest, why not just do a straight Ph.D. program? Around 5 years and little debt, if any. There's no guarantee of matching into Psych, so would you be happy doing 8 years to go into Family or Internal Medicine?

Consensus seems to be that psych is pretty achievable.

OP, realistically you would be 45+ by the time you complete your application process and enter medical school. That is very late. Would you have the physical and mental health to go through with the training?

The most important question is why are you deciding on medicine now? What's your motivation/ Driving force for switching careers?

 

[Dr. Jan Itor]

Consensus seems to be that psych is pretty achievable.

Definitely achievable, just not guaranteed. 94% of US Seniors matched into Psych this year, but it would really suck to be one of the 48 people who didn't if you are in your 50's and have to scramble for any residency you can find when you really just want to do research.

I'm not saying to not do it, just seems like a Ph.D. path might make more sense, especially if there's not a compelling reason to switch into medicine.

 

[mk04447]

I feel your pain. First, you will quickly learn the term non-trad is abused in this industry. Most of the people who claim this title took a year off college to have their balls powdered or something. They all whine about this and that, but most importantly, they don't have a clue what the hell they are talking about.

I am doing the exact same thing, I can tell you first hand that schools want you there... mainly because of the things I said above. Kids these days are idiots, were never told so, and think their **** doesn't stink. It will turn your stomach how out of touch they really are, makes you sick to think some of them will be licensed to practice medicine soon.

I digress. You are never too old to go to medical school, but there are some real concerns that need to be considered. Realistically, family or internal medicine are your best options, unless you want to work odd ball shifts on odd days at 65. Hospitals will dial back your hours too if you work in a sensitive field. Lifestyle concerns should be at the front of your mind. The loans are what they are, forget about those, you'll be retired before they are due.

Anyway, screw anyone telling you not to go. They don't know what they are talking about.

 

[Iridescent]

I feel your pain. First, you will quickly learn the term non-trad is abused in this industry. Most of the people who claim this title took a year off college to have their balls powdered or something. They all whine about this and that, but most importantly, they don't have a clue what the hell they are talking about.

I am doing the exact same thing, I can tell you first hand that schools want you there... mainly because of the things I said above. Kids these days are idiots, were never told so, and think their **** doesn't stink. It will turn your stomach how out of touch they really are, makes you sick to think some of them will be licensed to practice medicine soon.

I digress. You are never too old to go to medical school, but there are some real concerns that need to be considered. Realistically, family or internal medicine are your best options, unless you want to work odd ball shifts on odd days at 65. Hospitals will dial back your hours too if you work in a sensitive field. Lifestyle concerns should be at the front of your mind. The loans are what they are, forget about those, you'll be retired before they are due.

Anyway, screw anyone telling you not to go. They don't know what they are talking about.

No one is telling OP not to go this route. We are simply telling him the pros/cons the way we see it. It seems like OP doesn't even know what field he wants at this point.

Why are you so angry? There's no need to be hostile against anyone. If anything, it makes me sick that someone like you may enter medicine, making judgements without considering the perspectives/intentions of others.

 

[RKBrumbelow]

42??? That's quite late. I've heard people who are 30 or 35 trying to go to medical school and doing it, but 42? You will have so little practice time and the debt will accumulate. Are you sure you truly want to do this? An MD alone takes enough time. Why an MD/PHD? In the end, it's your life, but understand that you are going to be in school a long time. Also, what is pulling you towards a career in medicine? How about you just get a PhD and be a researcher. It seems like that would fit you better.

Yes I are old. Not to become a movie quote guy, but "Face it, I'm older and I have more insurance." thank you Evelyn from Fried Green tomatoes.
I should have 0 debt, so that is not a factor.

Research and teaching is what I always wind up doing, maybe it is because few others will (my general thought), maybe it is because I am good at it (what my students used to say). The problem is really multifold however:

• First, I do not believe that ivory tower research is the best path possible.
• Second, in my area, where I intend to return, psychiatrists are incredibly under represented. we are at 1/4 or less the national average of Doctors to patients.
• Third, I have already been through hell. My intention is to help those I can stay there for a much shorter time. My own personal hell is a long story I will save for later, but it involves an MRI tech asking me when I had brain surgery (I had not ever had brain surgery), refractory illness and a 100 point IQ drop (well 98, but we are rounding here and I have had a 30+ point recovery so far under current treatment).
• Forth [sic], My grandfather was a doctor and my other grandfathers were teachers (yes I had 3, and amongst other things). My grandmother was a nurse (and city commissioner and and and) as was my great aunt, my uncle was a Pharmacist (and Pastor), another uncle is a nurse so in short I grew up around medicine and around service.
• Lastly, I have a multiple of doctors who independently reached out to me and said have you considered going to medical school? You would be very good at it and we need more people like you in the field. Admittedly I had many of the same issues that you all have posted here and got responses such as "what else are you planning on doing in 10 years? Going back into IT? Anyone can do that" so when the people you most respect and who helped save your life say "We think you should do what we do so that you can use your personal experience to understand what others are going through and make their lives better and we think you would be -redacted- good at it" you have to listen. It makes sense to me, enough that I am willing to try and knock an otherwise deserving young doctor back a year because I believe I can make a net positive difference over that younger doctor.

1. We have a specific non-trad forum here that you might want to read through. I know it helped me a ton when I was first thinking about med school.
2. I know that science research is usually acceptable for MD, but I'm not sure about a joint MD/PhD program.
3. A couple hundred hours of shadowing is overkill. I think the average is around 50 or so. You do want a couple hundred hours of clinical volunteering (give or take.)
4. An Intro to Psych and Intro to Sociology is what's recommended for the MCAT 2015, although I know several people who self-taught those classes during test prep.

I will ask, why MD/Ph.D? If research is your main interest, why not just do a straight Ph.D. program? Around 5 years and little debt, if any. There's no guarantee of matching into Psych, so would you be happy doing 8 years to go into Family or Internal Medicine?

My school has some very interesting Bio-Chem and protein research going on, but being 3 miles past where Jesus lost His sandals (and thus 8 miles past the last pyramid and the left turn at Albuquerque) there is only 1 medical research study going on within 30 miles of me. I have contacted them to see if I can sweep the floors, but have not yet heard back yet.

The VA experience will be a combination of shadowing and volunteer work I will make certain to log them separately, but MCG where I hope to matriculate has said to me they want more than a hundred hours of shadowing. Whether that was in specific response to my circumstances or in general I am not wise enough to know at this point.

I am pretty set on psychiatry, or pharmacopsychiatry or something similar. It is because of my background and what I have been advocating for the past few years mixed with my personal story. The people I advocate for now are al refractory mental illness and or chronic pain patients.

Would you have the physical and mental health to go through with the training?

The most important question is why are you deciding on medicine now? What's your motivation/ Driving force for switching careers?

That is the single largest question. I am improving, it will take time and effort, I am going to be taking the time and effort to get well anyways and having a longer range goal is always beneficial to me. I do have several exit strategies in place in various points, but they are just that exit strategies, settling points.

I know one of my big concerns is taking the MCAT having only been back in school for a year. I have a goal for my MCAt score, but were I to share it with you I think you would all laugh. Still it is better to try and go big than not go at all eh?

I feel your pain. First, you will quickly learn the term non-trad is abused in this industry. Most of the people who claim this title took a year off college to have their balls powdered or something. They all whine about this and that, but most importantly, they don't have a clue what the hell they are talking about.

I am doing the exact same thing, I can tell you first hand that schools want you there... mainly because of the things I said above. Kids these days are idiots, were never told so, and think their **** doesn't stink. It will turn your stomach how out of touch they really are, makes you sick to think some of them will be licensed to practice medicine soon.

I digress. You are never too old to go to medical school, but there are some real concerns that need to be considered. Realistically, family or internal medicine are your best options, unless you want to work odd ball shifts on odd days at 65. Hospitals will dial back your hours too if you work in a sensitive field. Lifestyle concerns should be at the front of your mind. The loans are what they are, forget about those, you'll be retired before they are due.

Anyway, screw anyone telling you not to go. They don't know what they are talking about.

Thank you. Again I am not worried in the least about loans. Quite honestly I have several sources of government funding including VocRehab, State Doctor training programs and stipends which will all potentially be available to me. As well as my present (though likely shortened) disability income.

No one is telling OP not to go this route. We are simply telling him the pros/cons the way we see it. It seems like OP doesn't even know what field he wants at this point.

Quite the opposite, if I came across that way it is simply because I am trying to belay the inherent arrogance that seems to be so common in "nontraditional asking for advice" posts. Seriously, if you have not read them recently do so, at least half of them ended up banned and the others disappeared. It is ugly. In any case as others have already asked about and I responded, my intention is to go into Psychiatry or Pharmacopsychiatry. Both are massively underrepresented in my area and allow practice into late in life, though again my grandfather was a practicing dentist until his late 80's. My family is long lived, if you make it past 65, you are likely to make it past 90 and I have no intention of retiring until someone pulls my license (though here in Georgia after a certain age you have to go before the review boards every 2 years to get an exception)

If I missed a question or point, feel free to remake it and I will (re)address it.

 

[EParker37]

This is an N=1, but my aunt who lives in the UK went back for her medical degree at 45 and is now a practicing psychiatrist. She is closer to 65 now and has no plans to retire any time soon. Of all the specialties, I imagine psych is one which lends itself to being something you could do well into your 80's if you chose to.

 

[Dr. Jan Itor]

My family is long lived, if you make it past 65, you are likely to make it past 90 and I have no intention of retiring until someone pulls my license (though here in Georgia after a certain age you have to go before the review boards every 2 years to get an exception)

At least if you don't make it past 65, you won't have to worry about repaying your loans.

But in all seriousness, it seems like you have a compelling reason for wanting to switch fields and wanting to practice in an underrepresented area is always a plus. My advice would be to go ahead and work on your undergrad courses understanding that when you apply to med school and residencies, some people may have a bias against you (even though legally they aren't supposed to.) I'm not that much younger than you and I haven't had any issues yet, but it's something to keep in mind.

 

[RKBrumbelow]

Again with the loans Loans are not a concern of mine VocRehab is helping with my undergrad and my MD/PhD will either be tuition free or otherwise supplemented. Ironically the most mentioned negative is not one I think I will have to worry about.

One other advantage I have is that the doctors who are going to be writing most of my LoR are MCG Alumni. Obviously I will apply to other schools, because only a fool puts all his eggs in one basket, but MCG (Medical College of Georgia) is my First choice.

My intention, if at all possible, is going to be to set my class schedule (probably 20 hours 1st semester back then 24 hours 2nd semester back [I have done as many as 28 in a semester and gotten a 3.97 stupid guitar class ....I got a B in]) across 3 days that gives me 1 day a week for research/shadowing and a half day each week for volunteering while leaving me a 1/2 day each week for my own medical needs.

Of course this is all depending on a number of factors outside of my control like when classes are available.

 

[mk04447]

No one is telling OP not to go this route. We are simply telling him the pros/cons the way we see it. It seems like OP doesn't even know what field he wants at this point.

Why are you so angry? There's no need to be hostile against anyone. If anything, it makes me sick that someone like you may enter medicine, making judgements without considering the perspectives/intentions of others.

Are you so used to people riding PC so fearfully that you assume I'm angry; sounds like you need a dose of your own advice.

 

[Mad Jack]

42??? That's quite late. I've heard people who are 30 or 35 trying to go to medical school and doing it, but 42? You will have so little practice time and the debt will accumulate. Are you sure you truly want to do this? An MD alone takes enough time. Why an MD/PHD? In the end, it's your life, but understand that you are going to be in school a long time. Also, what is pulling you towards a career in medicine? How about you just get a PhD and be a researcher. It seems like that would fit you better.

We had a guy in his 50s two classes back.

 

[RKBrumbelow]

We had a guy in his 50s two classes back.

How did he fare?

 

[Mad Jack]

How did he fare?

Fine. No idea what he's doing now, I think he was looking into a residency in FM and doing Western and alternative medicine in some sort of integrative practice. Whatever floats his boat.

 

[gyngyn]

This may be a little late but may I suggest another photo and username?

 

[RKBrumbelow]

This may be a little late but may I suggest another photo and username?

You certainly can suggest such, my policy has always been to be honest about who I am though. A dear friend of mine who used to be one of my philosophy profs, makes a compelling argument that one should post using their real name and face as opposed to hiding behind pseudonyms. If there is a specific policy as opposed to simply not a good idea I will petition to have it changed immediately.

What is your reasoning?

 

[gyngyn]

You certainly can suggest such, my policy has always been to be honest about who I am though. A dear friend of mine who used to be one of my philosophy profs, makes a compelling argument that one should post using their real name and face as opposed to hiding behind pseudonyms. If there is a specific policy as opposed to simply not a good idea I will petition to have it changed immediately.

What is your reasoning?

http://www.studentdoctor.net/online-service-agreement/?reload=1&r=1434828036319

 

[doc05]

important to consider that....

you have no compelling reason to pursue medicine.
you're 20 years behind schedule.
you've presented no compelling reason why an MSTP program should admit you.
other than a "history" of testing well when you were young, you haven't presented any legitimate academic credentials.
doing some simple math, you'll be in your mid 50s when you start practicing!! and while it is possible to work into your 80s, most people don't (or can't).
also consider the opportunity cost of many lost years of saving/investing for retirement. unless you're independently wealthy, it doesn't make any financial sense (and may very well be cost-prohibitive).

 

[charlie517]

I'm pretty sure OP, at 42, has thought this through enough to have reached the decision to pursue medicine. Though I do agree with some statements made here, I will try to address your concerns and hopefully help...though it's all coming from experience.

"In summary:
So what obvious things am I missing? I would try to narrow down what truly drives you to becoming a psychiatrist and why the careers you've had thus far, have not been fulfilling as psychiatry will be.
Can other science research compensate for lack of medical research time? In terms of showing your interest in reserach, yes, but I suggest, if applying to MD/PhD, to try and get some experience on research related to what you want to pursue (mental health issues, or maybe at an institution where you can deal with schizophrenic patients or PTSD patients which is more psychiatry oriented research?). You still have some time, but I'd start looking broader in location and applying to different labs so you can get into a specific one. On the other hand, if you cannot, be prepared to answer the why you did not dedicate your time to carry out medical research or why not just Ph.D., etc).
I am assuming I need a couple hundred hours shadow time. That plus research time I can do 500 hours in a year if I find the right fits. Honestly, with 100 shadowing hours across various fields (just so you can cover the "why psychiatry and not XX" questions and concerns for medical school and yourself) you should be good. Take the rest of the time to do some clinical volunteering. Or a mix of both.
Oh and I know the new MCAT has more areas of soft sciences does anyone have an idea of how many Sociology /Psychology classes I should try for or is it simply every hour I can manage and not drop GPA points while getting all the prerequisites? I took the MCAT psych test portion, and I think general sociology and psychology classes should cover it. Even without those, just studying well from MCAT practice material should be sufficient. Regarding the GPA drop, depends how good of a student you are with classes that are conceptual and memorization driven. I'm sure you can find a few psych/socio prep questions so you can gauge whether you need to take the classes or if you can study on your own.

Hope this helps!

 

[ZedsDed]

Mods please move to non-trad forum

 

[Goro]

OP, you can do plenty of research without the MD/PhD. Just do a fellowship.

You'll need > 100 hr shadowing, > 100 hrs of clinical volunteering (to show us that you know what you're getting into) and > 100 hrs non-clinical volunteering, to demonstrate your altruism.

My oldest student was 53. I believe he's an ER doc in the mid-west. I graduated one at 50 last year too.

 

[RKBrumbelow]

Mods please move to non-trad forum

If the moderators feel such a need, I have no problem with that though I do not like the suggestion that it is not a legitimate pre-med set of questions.

important to consider that....

you have no compelling reason to pursue medicine.
you're 20 years behind schedule.
you've presented no compelling reason why an MSTP program should admit you.
other than a "history" of testing well when you were young, you haven't presented any legitimate academic credentials.
doing some simple math, you'll be in your mid 50s when you start practicing!! and while it is possible to work into your 80s, most people don't (or can't).
also consider the opportunity cost of many lost years of saving/investing for retirement. unless you're independently wealthy, it doesn't make any financial sense (and may very well be cost-prohibitive).

• False,
• True, somewhat but not in all aspects
• True I have not presented it, that does not mean however that it does not exist. I was after all a teacher and have written academically in the past though in different subjects,
• Please note my area of specialty and the fact that I have already addressed that concern.
• Retirement is not really an issue for me, nor is it really part of my family or culture. We tend to work until we simply cannot work anymore. My grandmother cared for the elderly until she was 89, My grandparents fostered when they were in their 50's, My dentist grandfather practiced until he was in his late 80's (87 I believe). This is my culture and my family, I have no reason to expect otherwise. Besides, how much do I really need even were I to retire at 70? In the area I intend to practice in a nice house is 100k, you can purchase a house for 50k and build a brand new one on a multi-acre plot for 150k. Heck, if I average 150k a year, I can save 75k after taxes. In 2 years that is a new house paid for, 8 years after that I have 600k in savings, enough for me to live off of principle for 24 years. A lot of "retirement" is what you expect and what you plan to do. I have already travelled the world and all the kinds of things people talk about doing when they retire. I already learned to fly, scuba dive and do stained glass.

http://www.studentdoctor.net/online-service-agreement/?reload=1&r=1434828036319

I saw that and took it as advice to protect my anonymity, the problem is I do not desire anonymity. I spent some time as a forensic technician (IT) for a private investigator back int he early 2000's and I understand that there is nothing on the internet that is anonymous. I do firmly believe one should put oneself on the line for what we post on the internet if it has any value.
http://keithburgess-jackson.typepad.com/blog/2009/06/anonymity-1.html (My aforementioned friend and former professor).

However, I also respect your age on the forums so I will contact an admin to get a ruling one way or the other.

 

[ZedsDed]

If the moderators feel such a need, I have no problem with that though I do not like the suggestion that it is not a legitimate pre-med set of questions.

I don't believe I suggested this. It's simply nice to have similar posts categorized together.

 

[RKBrumbelow]

I don't believe I suggested this. It's simply nice to have similar posts categorized together.

it can be difficult to read subtexts and we often should not. I apologize for inferring something you did not imply. I likely would have taken it differently had you said "this thread would have been better int he non-traditional forum" or some such, but again the problem was in my inferring.

/shake?

 

[ZedsDed]

it can be difficult to read subtexts and we often should not. I apologize for inferring something you did not imply. I likely would have taken it differently had you said "this thread would have been better int he non-traditional forum" or some such, but again the problem was in my inferring.

/shake?

/shake

 

[deleted393595]

Kids these days are idiots, were never told so, and think their **** doesn't stink. It will turn your stomach how out of touch they really are, makes you sick to think some of them will be licensed to practice medicine soon.

Grandpa, have you stopped taking your meds again?

 

[RKBrumbelow]

Grandpa, have you stopped taking your meds again?

At least neither mk04447 nor I have said "Get off my lawn" yet ... oops well, I guess I just did. Oh well I am sure none of the kids still in mom's basement noticed.

 

[Ukpremed]

42 years old.
+ 4 years of undergrad
+ 8 years for MD/PhD
+ 3 years for residency

you can expect to be making a real paycheck by the age of 57. Will that give you enough time to pay back an assumed 12 years of student loan debt before you are able to retire?

A good amount of MD/PhD programs pay for your school and some give you stipends.

 

[RKBrumbelow]

A good amount of MD/PhD programs pay for your school and some give you stipends.

This ^. The school I hope to matriculate to does this very thing, while it is not the reason I want to matriculate there, it is a nice bonus.

I am particularly interested in the role of immune response and mental disorders, the fact that the doctors whom I respect most all graduated from MCG, the desire to stay and return local after school are driving factors for my choice to attend there.

 

[genericpremedstudent]

This ^. The school I hope to matriculate to does this very thing, while it is not the reason I want to matriculate there, it is a nice bonus.

I am particularly interested in the role of immune response and mental disorders, the fact that the doctors whom I respect most all graduated from MCG, the desire to stay and return local after school are driving factors for my choice to attend there.

you can't bank on that.

 

[RKBrumbelow]

you can't bank on that.

I can't bank on the fact that the reasons I want to go to a particular school include factors such as My LoRs will be coming from Alumni, That the school and I both value local doctors in under served areas and that a major research project I am very interested in is beginning at the same institution?

Your reply makes no sense.

If you are saying I cannot bank on entry into an MD/PhD program, well I have alternate exit points, but it is my desire and both I and my LoR writers seem to agree that it would be a good fit. They being alumni of that school and one of that program specifically makes me want to trust their opinions more than yours, sorry.

If you are saying I cannot rely on a stipend, I can tell you I am not, like I said it is a nice bonus.

 

[genericpremedstudent]

You can't bank on any of it. You still haven't even finished your undergrad work. You are putting the cart before the house to assume you are going to be accepted into a program, let alone receive a full ride and a stipend. I'm not an adcom, but I wouldn't consider a person like you a competitive applicant. Nothing personal.

 

[RKBrumbelow]

You can't bank on any of it. You still haven't even finished your undergrad work. You are putting the cart before the house to assume you are going to be accepted into a program, let alone receive a full ride and a stipend. I'm not an adcom, but I wouldn't consider a person like you a competitive applicant. Nothing personal.

Wow, you really don't want to know what I consider you at this point then. (Hint: Rhymes with Droll)

 

[genericpremedstudent]

Just because someone thinks differently than you doesn't make them a troll. I think your age is a liability. I think you have this entitled attitude that you will automatically get accepted somewhere when you really have no idea. You haven't even taken the MCAT yet, have zero clinical experience or volunteer work. you haven't even made a compelling case for why you decided to get into medicine at your age. and trust me, you will definitely need a compelling reason. slow your roll. you made this thread to ask for advice and you've argued with every single person who had a legitimate opinion that didn't jive with yours.

 

[RKBrumbelow]

Folks, I have no problem with people being contentious and offering advice, pointing out weaknesses etc, after all I asked for it. However if you are going to have bad behaviour like genericpremedstudent please take it to another thread. I would like to keep my ignore list to 1 (I would have preferred it to be 0 but /shrug)

 

[genericpremedstudent]

lol you must be new to the internet.

 

[mk04447]

This ^. The school I hope to matriculate to does this very thing, while it is not the reason I want to matriculate there, it is a nice bonus.

I am particularly interested in the role of immune response and mental disorders, the fact that the doctors whom I respect most all graduated from MCG, the desire to stay and return local after school are driving factors for my choice to attend there.

While it is true the PhD can come with funding, I think the idea deviates from the lifestyle I mentioned earlier. While I haven't experienced any age discrimination in my journey, quite the opposite, I haven't expressed an interest in pursuits that crowd retirement.

If you get really honest with yourself, IM and FM are all we have in us. Not that either is settling by any standard. As discussed the cost and funding doesn't matter, but you've got to concede whatever route you choose must leave you 10-20 years of practice. The PhD route probably isn't one of them.

 

[njtrimed]

My take on this thread is this: OP, you are clearly intelligent, but you seem a bit too preoccupied with your IQ. I am sure that given your interests and drive, you will be successful in whatever you choose to do. Stop worrying about numbers that not only aren't relevant, but make you come across as a bit arrogant. I believe the term for it is "humble bragging." I'll admit that I haven't read too much on this forum and cannot say for certain that you are right or wrong in saying that other "nontrads" come across as arrogant, but based on what you have said, you really do come across that way to me.

And there is blatant ageism in this thread. Even if OP wasn't gunning for the MD/PhD that guarantees him to be debt-free at whatever age he finishes, it's a bit insulting to insinuate that he will be incapable of meeting his goals. I'm a decade and a half older than my classmates will be when I matriculate. My average day is: wake up at 5, work 8-12 days in the OR taking care of patients and according to my fitness device, covering at least 3.5 miles in my work day. Then I go home, run 7-10 miles with my little one in the stroller, take care of family responsibilities, and then study and/or work on applications until midnight. There are kids much younger than me who marvel at my ability to keep up with my responsibilities, and then there's my father-in-law and aunt in their 70's who are supposed to be retired and somehow accomplish more than I do in a given day. Leave age out of this. It's all about what an individual is willing and able to do.

I believe OP when he claims that he is extremely bright and capable of attaining the MD/PhD and a residency that leads to a successful career in psychiatry that allows him to practice decades past retirement age, whatever that even means these days. I personally don't have a retirement plan; I'm less than a decade younger than OP and plan on the MD/DO route minus the extra four years, and I don't think I'd be doing this if I wanted to retire, given that I'm not starting at 22. I'm all for a healthy dose of reality, but I think some of the posts here are a bit insulting. Going into medicine with your eyes wide open is probably the ultimate "leveling ground" right now. We should all recognize that even IF we can ascertain a specialty that allows for some degree of relaxation, we're all going to be working insanely hard for several decades. If that's a bad thing, then there are other routes to personal satisfaction. Medicine always has been, and is now more than ever, a lifestyle that beckons people who don't WANT to relax. It demands a lifetime of learning, and with that comes enjoying the process of constantly adapting to new guidelines and expectations. I personally applaud OP for having the vision to recognize what this means several decades into his training and practice, even though I believe he needs to tone down the "IQ" aspect of the whole thing.

Because let's face it, we're all a bunch of intelligent people dedicating our lives to servicing the community, and we have to understand that our personalities and drive matter far more than baseline intelligence in meeting those demands.

 

[genericpremedstudent]

You can't act like his age isn't a factor here. for the time commitment involved, it would be absurd for a medical school to foot the bill for someone who feasibly wont even be finished with their training until they are almost 60. you have to take into consideration the applicants longevity in medicine. its all fine to talk about working until you are 80 but there are unforeseen circumstances that make it impossible to assume that will be the case. I'm an older non-trad as well (not nearly as old as OP) and it was very much a concern of mine.

 

[njtrimed]

You can't act like his age isn't a factor here. for the time commitment involved, it would be absurd for a medical school to foot the bill for someone who feasibly wont even be finished with their training until they are almost 60. you have to take into consideration the applicants longevity in medicine. its all fine to talk about working until you are 80 but there are unforeseen circumstances that make it impossible to assume that will be the case. I'm an older non-trad as well (not nearly as old as OP) and it was very much a concern of mine.

There are unforeseen circumstances that prevent a 20-year-old undergrad from working, too. It really depends on the person, the drive, and the ability. I personally have dedicated a third of my life to surgery, and don't want to be a surgeon because the lifestyle doesn't match what I want for my own family. But am I as capable going into med school at 35 as a med student at 21 of having a full and successful career if I choose surgery? Absolutely. I have family members who are accomplishing at 95 what 35 year olds cannot. There are statistics, and then there's ageism. It's really no different than any other form of discrimination, because statistics may suggest that someone of a certain race/disability status/etc. cannot perform a certain task, and that is not necessarily reasonable or fair.

 

[genericpremedstudent]

Call it ageism all you want but it boils down to who a more competitive candidate, and longevity should definitely be a factor. Why give the spot to someone who can only feasibly practice for 10 years instead of someone who can practice for 40.

 

[njtrimed]

So why are you bothering? If someone who is younger can do it longer, shouldn't you just continue with your chosen path, whatever that is/was?

 

[genericpremedstudent]

Nah, I'm actually in a pretty good spot age-wise. Late 40s, however... I dunno. Like I said, I'm not an Adcom so who knows. I did however serve on the apprenticeship committee in my previous career and we definitely turned down older applicants for that very reason.

 

[RKBrumbelow]

My take on this thread is this: OP, you are clearly intelligent, but you seem a bit too preoccupied with your IQ.

If I am too preoccupied with it, it is not because I think it is great; but, rather it was, then was not, and is now recovering. It is a very difficult thing to lose effectively 100 IQ points and it is a struggle to get them back. I do not know that i can get them back completely. At one point things got so bad that I lost the ability to read and have things make any sense. What I mean is that when we read letters combine to become words, words likewise become phrases, phrases become sentences, sentences -> paragraphs and so on. I got stuck at letters and words. I could recognize words, but anything more complex than that simply made no sense whatsoever, this is rough when you could once read 600+ words a minute with a 90% comprehension rate. It was one of the things that got me over at UTSW signing up for clinical trials to figure out what was happening to me. At that time I was in such bad shape I was literally living in the back of an old hatchback. Is it arrogant of me to acknowledge that? Possibly. Is it true? Definitely. What my intention, at least consciously, was to show that the journey has been long and difficult, that things have turned around with a metric crap tonne of effort and that I am willing to continue that same monumental effort going forward.

My decision to go to medical school is not some whim, nor is it based on the idea that it is an easy process. I acknowledge the fact that if I get into a school it means someone else does not. Medical schools (for the most part, ignoring some legacy positions), are meritocratic. If MCG allows 230 people in a beginning class and I apply and am accepted, that means that the 231st most deserving person who wants to attend there that year cannot. There has to be some degree of arrogance in me to presume that my education is worth that, that my practice, my research is worth that. I have to at least believe that I can accomplish, in the limited time I have left, more than they could in the longer time they have left. If I do not believe that, then I should not apply. I should go tech chemistry or physics, go back into IT, get a social workers degree, anything else. However, let me states that it is simply a degree of arrogance difference between myself and a traditional student, as a traditional student still has to acknowledge that they believe their education is more worthwhile than whomever they knock off the list. The difference is I have less time to accomplish the "more than that other person." While I do bear the responsibility for taking up a slot, assuming I am accepted, it is up to the admissions personnel to determine who gets what offer in what program. In the end I have to believe i can do it and do it well; else, why bother even starting the process.

 

[RKBrumbelow]

If you get really honest with yourself, IM and FM are all we have in us.

My Psychiatrist was in his late 30's when he went to medical school (MCG), is in his 70's now. In fact, he is probably the one who planted the idea of medical school in my head once he found out that I was advocating for chronic pain and refractory illness patients. So I think Psychiatry is also a viable 'old fart' specialty as well.