Non traditional student looking for advice for international medical schools

[roaringtiger]

I am 31 yrs old and am looking into switching careers into medicine. I am a US citizen and am currently working for the leading medical research agency in the USA and being in constant contact with many physicians, scientists etc. has spurred my interest in the field. Unfortunately, I come from a non biology background so I feel that my chances of getting into medical school in the US are slim. What are some good lower cost options outside of the US that I could possibly pursue medicine in ( I am thinking Europe - specifically E Europe for now)? How difficult would it be for me to get admitted into one of these schools and what cost of attending am I looking at? Do those schools only want fresh college grads? Also how difficult would it be for me to go for residency in the US after completion?

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[hawkbit]

Why do you think your chances are slim for US medical school? It would probably require some time and effort to get in (two years?) Assuming you have a decent undergrad gpa (3.5+). You might try the international forum for questions regarding schools there. It is generally much more challenging to get into US residency as a international medical graduate, and not generally recommended as a good course of action.

 

[plauto]

There are no shortcuts in medicine. Not having a science background is perfectly fine.
Just go back to take your prereqs and take the MCAT. In 3 years, if you do well, you'll be starting at a US med school. Going internationally is a bad idea that will get even worse as time goes on due to the current changes in the system. What is your undergrad degree and GPA?

 

[roaringtiger]

There are no shortcuts in medicine. Not having a science background is perfectly fine.
Just go back to take your prereqs and take the MCAT. In 3 years, if you do well, you'll be starting at a US med school. Going internationally is a bad idea that will get even worse as time goes on due to the current changes in the system. What is your undergrad degree and GPA?

My undergrad degree is in Engineering and I have a 3.75 GPA. The reason I was looking at foreign medical schools is the cost - schools in E- Eu are 1/3rd the cost and the some in W Europe are free (if you can speak the local language).

Do US medical schools even entertain older students? WHy do you say going international is a bad idea and what changes do you speak of?

 

[In Missourah]

My undergrad degree is in Engineering and I have a 3.75 GPA. The reason I was looking at foreign medical schools is the cost - schools in E- Eu are 1/3rd the cost and the some in W Europe are free (if you can speak the local language).

Do US medical schools even entertain older students? WHy do you say going international is a bad idea and what changes do you speak of?

You are discounting US medical schools before you've even done any research whatsoever about your chances of admission.

Pick up a copy of MSAR, and look at US medical school admissions statistics. When you have a better idea about your chances, come back.

 

[Chip N Sawbones]

With those grades and presumably some of the prereqs already done you are in much better shape than most of the people on the nontrad forum, myself included. Neither your age nor your background will be any problem. IIRC non-science majors have a higher acceptance rate than science majors do. Read the sticky threads and FAQs to get an idea of what you will have to do to apply for med school.

Oh, and it's already been said, but forget international schools if you have any intention of practicing medicine in the US. A medical degree isn't worth much if you can't get into a residency with it.

 

[FlyLite]

The reason I was looking at foreign medical schools is the cost - schools in E- Eu are 1/3rd the cost and the some in W Europe are free (if you can speak the local language).

This is interesting... it would be nice to have a link or some other reference for this info. But I think you would find countries give free education only to citizens, and with some strings... say so many years of service for the government. And just the hassle of transition between countries....why would you want to go through all that with a 3.7 GPA?

 

[theseeker4]

My undergrad degree is in Engineering and I have a 3.75 GPA. The reason I was looking at foreign medical schools is the cost - schools in E- Eu are 1/3rd the cost and the some in W Europe are free (if you can speak the local language).

Do US medical schools even entertain older students? WHy do you say going international is a bad idea and what changes do you speak of?

Going international is a bad idea because it is much, much, much more difficult to obtain a US residency as a FMG (foreign medical graduate). Virtually every US medical graduate that passes the step exams will be able to get into a US residency program (though often not their first choice if they perform poorly) while it is a huge risk as a FMG to get a residency in the US. If you can get into a US medical school, you absolutely should consider going anywhere here rather than going overseas, if you want to practice in the US.

The changes are, generally, the increase in US medical school spots with new schools opening each year, while the number of US residency spots are not increasing. There also seems to be no plan to increase the number of residency spots in the near future. This means that more US medical graduates are going to be filling up the residency spots, leaving fewer openings for FMG's, since most US residency programs give priority to US medical graduates. The fewer spots for FMG's obviously means it will be harder for FMG's to obtain residency positions.

With your GPA and being a non-traditional student, as long as you get the pre-reqs done with good grades, nail the MCAT and get some volunteering and clinical exposure, you will have no problem getting into medical school in the US. Good luck.

 

[roaringtiger]

Going international is a bad idea because it is much, much, much more difficult to obtain a US residency as a FMG (foreign medical graduate). Virtually every US medical graduate that passes the step exams will be able to get into a US residency program (though often not their first choice if they perform poorly) while it is a huge risk as a FMG to get a residency in the US. If you can get into a US medical school, you absolutely should consider going anywhere here rather than going overseas, if you want to practice in the US.

The changes are, generally, the increase in US medical school spots with new schools opening each year, while the number of US residency spots are not increasing. There also seems to be no plan to increase the number of residency spots in the near future. This means that more US medical graduates are going to be filling up the residency spots, leaving fewer openings for FMG's, since most US residency programs give priority to US medical graduates. The fewer spots for FMG's obviously means it will be harder for FMG's to obtain residency positions.

With your GPA and being a non-traditional student, as long as you get the pre-reqs done with good grades, nail the MCAT and get some volunteering and clinical exposure, you will have no problem getting into medical school in the US. Good luck.

I just wonder what happens to the FMGs unable to get US residency. Anyways the thing I am a bit concerned about is wanting to stay in my current geographical region, I am just curious as to how difficult it is for applicants to be able to attend in their city/ state of choice?

 

[theseeker4]

I just wonder what happens to the FMGs unable to get US residency. Anyways the thing I am a bit concerned about is wanting to stay in my current geographical region, I am just curious as to how difficult it is for applicants to be able to attend in their city/ state of choice?

It depends entirely on the medical schools within their geographic region and the strength of their application. Someone with a 3.2 GPA and a 24MCAT will find it difficult to get in anywhere, while someone with a 3.9 GPA and a 38 MCAT will be competitive at even the top-10 schools, assuming the rest of their application is equally impressive. Since I don't know where you are regarding geographic location, I can't say anything regarding how easy it is to stay there. What I am not sure is why would you consider an overseas school if you are concerned with having to move to a different part of the US for medical school?

 

[DrMidlife]

Unfortunately, I come from a non biology background so I feel that my chances of getting into medical school in the US are slim.

This is nonsense. Educate yourself about how people get into med school in the US. Reading threads in this forum will give you the info you need.

 

[GirlMx]

The reason I was looking at foreign medical schools is the cost - schools in E- Eu are 1/3rd the cost and the some in W Europe are free (if you can speak the local language).

Looks like nobody commented on this. Is it still not worth it going abroad if he's going to save himself the outrageous cost of med school in the US?

 

[DrMidlife]

Looks like nobody commented on this. Is it still not worth it going abroad if he's going to save himself the outrageous cost of med school in the US?

The outrageous cost of med school in the US is offset by the ability of US citizens & GCs to borrow 100% of the cost of attendance through federal programs, and to pay back those loans with outrageous salaries and loan repayment programs.

If you save, for example, $200,000 by going to an offshore school, such as in Poland, and you're only able to get a family medicine residency in the US, then within two years after residency you probably lost $200,000 in salary. After a third year in practice you've lost the salary that would cover accrued interest.

Somebody with decent stats going overseas to get a medical degree, with the intention of practicing in the US, is pretty much the same as going to Iowa to become a movie star.

 

[Antisept]

I am 31 yrs old and am looking into switching careers into medicine. I am a US citizen and am currently working for the leading medical research agency in the USA and being in constant contact with many physicians, scientists etc. has spurred my interest in the field. Unfortunately, I come from a non biology background so I feel that my chances of getting into medical school in the US are slim. What are some good lower cost options outside of the US that I could possibly pursue medicine in ( I am thinking Europe - specifically E Europe for now)? How difficult would it be for me to get admitted into one of these schools and what cost of attending am I looking at? Do those schools only want fresh college grads? Also how difficult would it be for me to go for residency in the US after completion?

Your non-biology degree is not an obstacle at any school I know. You should make every effort to attend an American med school. There are many foreign-trained MDs who didn't match and wished they had attended nursing school instead.

 

[GirlMx]

There are many foreign-trained MDs who didn't match and wished they had attended nursing school instead.

Is this true? To practice in the US, a US nursing degree is superior than a foreign medical degree?

 

[Bluesun]

A 3.7 GPA in an engineering degree is rather impressive, regardless of context. I'm still very much a novice regarding medical school admissions, but it appears that you have a lot of reading to do before you can make any sorts of judgements. From your posts, it almost seems as if you haven't really read anything at all.

Is there something I am missing?

 

[theseeker4]

Is this true? To practice in the US, a US nursing degree is superior than a foreign medical degree?

I think the point is that if they had attended a nursing program, they would have a secure job and be able to work in the US in health care without a problem. This is not the case for a FMG if they don't match in the US. They also wouldn't be facing the debt of medical school, which is still significant for many FMG's.

 

[roaringtiger]

Are you people sure about the FMG/ IMG situation? Then how come there are so many foreign doctors practicing in the US? Was it easier before than now or something?

 

[theseeker4]

Are you people sure about the FMG/ IMG situation? Then how come there are so many foreign doctors practicing in the US? Was it easier before than now or something?

Search for any thread talking about people "going Caribbean" for medical school. Even though they are US citizens, they are FMG's since they went to a foreign medical school. Each of those threads talks about how many graduates from these schools fail to match in the US.

There are many foreign-born doctors, but some of those were graduates from US medical schools. It is also true that there are significantly more residency spots than US medical graduates, so the extra spots are filled with FMG's. However, the important thing to look at is how many FMG's apply for US residencies vs how many actually match. That is the important distinction, not a raw number of foreign-born doctors. I don't know what the ratio of those applying vs those matching is, but I guarantee it is much less than the ratio for US school graduates.

And yes, it was easier in the past since the number of medical school slots is increasing while the number of residencies is nearly constant. It is getting harder every year to match as a FMG, and will continue to until/unless additional residency slots are added.

 

[roaringtiger]

Search for any thread talking about people "going Caribbean" for medical school. Even though they are US citizens, they are FMG's since they went to a foreign medical school. Each of those threads talks about how many graduates from these schools fail to match in the US.

There are many foreign-born doctors, but some of those were graduates from US medical schools. It is also true that there are significantly more residency spots than US medical graduates, so the extra spots are filled with FMG's. However, the important thing to look at is how many FMG's apply for US residencies vs how many actually match. That is the important distinction, not a raw number of foreign-born doctors. I don't know what the ratio of those applying vs those matching is, but I guarantee it is much less than the ratio for US school graduates.

And yes, it was easier in the past since the number of medical school slots is increasing while the number of residencies is nearly constant. It is getting harder every year to match as a FMG, and will continue to until/unless additional residency slots are added.

So what happens to these graduates who fail to match? I mean is that the end of the road for them?

 

[theseeker4]

So what happens to these graduates who fail to match? I mean is that the end of the road for them?

I don't know what happens to the majority of them, but I know many Caribbean graduates apply the next year, then the year after that, and on and on until they either eventually match or give up. I don't have any more specific information about this, but I imagine they end up stuck doing something other than practicing medicine in the US.

 

[plauto]

So what happens to these graduates who fail to match? I mean is that the end of the road for them?

not that it really matters, but either they don't immigrate to the US, or they get a residency where there are unfilled spots (psych or fam med usually), or end up being a lab rat....

also, I don't quite understand this...you are worried about not getting into a med school in your geographical area but are willing to move half way across the world? what area do you live in now?

 

[roaringtiger]

not that it really matters, but either they don't immigrate to the US, or they get a residency where there are unfilled spots (psych or fam med usually), or end up being a lab rat....

also, I don't quite understand this...you are worried about not getting into a med school in your geographical area but are willing to move half way across the world? what area do you live in now?

No no, that was for cost considerations. I am in the DC area but orginally from California. I want to stay in either the east or west coast.

 

[plauto]

No no, that was for cost considerations. I am in the DC area but orginally from California. I want to stay in either the east or west coast.

you are in luck. Plenty of schools to get into, especially on the East coast.

 

[roaringtiger]

So a quick question, what would be a good place to complete my premed requirements for bio and chem (already have the physics and math)? Would it be advisable to go to a cheap community college to complete the premeds instead of an expensive uni? I was thinking of enrolling in a coaching institute to prepare for the MCAT.

 

[theseeker4]

So a quick question, what would be a good place to complete my premed requirements for bio and chem (already have the physics and math)? Would it be advisable to go to a cheap community college to complete the premeds instead of an expensive uni? I was thinking of enrolling in a coaching institute to prepare for the MCAT.

Usually the advice is to avoid community colleges if you can, especially for pre-reqs. With a high GPA in an engineering degree, I personally doubt it would make you look bad, but understand that a few schools may bump your application down the list based on where you took the pre-reqs if you go with a CC.

Wait on the MCAT until your pre-reqs are done. First, they cover all the information you need for the MCAT, so it makes it much easier to prepare once they are done. Second, it is more difficult to keep A's in your classes while studying for the MCAT, so it is better to prepare when not taking courses, after the pre-reqs are finished. I also wouldn't enroll for any prep class without taking multiple practice tests and seeing if you even need a prep class. If you can score in the mid to high 30's with a balanced score without taking a prep course, why spend the money on one?

 

[roaringtiger]

Usually the advice is to avoid community colleges if you can, especially for pre-reqs. With a high GPA in an engineering degree, I personally doubt it would make you look bad, but understand that a few schools may bump your application down the list based on where you took the pre-reqs if you go with a CC.

Wait on the MCAT until your pre-reqs are done. First, they cover all the information you need for the MCAT, so it makes it much easier to prepare once they are done. Second, it is more difficult to keep A's in your classes while studying for the MCAT, so it is better to prepare when not taking courses, after the pre-reqs are finished. I also wouldn't enroll for any prep class without taking multiple practice tests and seeing if you even need a prep class. If you can score in the mid to high 30's with a balanced score without taking a prep course, why spend the money on one?

So approx how much time would I need to complete the Chemistry and Bio prereqs (in terms of semesters) assuming that you are part time?

 

[Bluesun]

So approx how much time would I need to complete the Chemistry and Bio prereqs (in terms of semesters) assuming that you are part time?

It seems like you're more playing with the idea of going to med school than actually planning for it. All of the questions you have asked can all be answered by spending a little time reading through these forums, or just checking out a few medical schools' sites and looking at their entry criterion.

You can figure out how long it will take you to finish the prereqs by looking and seeing what prereqs you will need to complete and any that you may need to repeat (for learning purposes or for GPA improvement purposes if you are planning on applying to D.O. schools).

Do a few quick searches, read the stickies, etc -- there's a wealth of information here. You'll find several answers to each question you have posted so far, and you're likely to find answers to questions you never thought to ask!

 

[theseeker4]

So approx how much time would I need to complete the Chemistry and Bio prereqs (in terms of semesters) assuming that you are part time?

Depends on exactly how many you need. Minimum requirements are 1 year general chemistry with lab, one year organic chem with lab, and one year of biology with lab (you said you have the physics and math already). You will probably need a year of English if you don't have that as well. Some schools require biochemistry, microbiology, cell biology, genetics, anatomy and physiology, etc. You need to look at the schools you are considering and see what they actually require.

How long it will take depends on how many classes you can take at a time. If you can only take one class at a time, you are looking at a minimum of 6 semesters/terms, which would be two years if you take classes over the summer. If you have to add in any of the classes required by some schools and not others I mentioned above, it will take longer. Obviously, if you can take two classes at a time, you will be finished in half the time, but if you have a full work schedule make sure you can ace the classes before you overextend yourself.

I would suggest taking Gen chem 1 next semester (since you probably can't take it this fall semester at this point), Chem 2 and Bio 1 over the summer if you do well with chem 1 and have the time, bio 2 and organic 1 next fall, organic 2 and one other classes you have to take or might need at a school in the winter. When these are done, if you have all the necessary classes complete, study for the MCAT after the winter classes end to take it in July, submit all your materials in May so your grades can be verified and your application viewed by schools as soon as the MCAT scores are released. This would let you start medical school in Aug 2014. If you have additional classes to take, you will still have Fall 2013, Winter 2014 and summer 2014 terms to complete the classes, since many (most?) schools will consider and admit you as long as you are going to take the pre-reqs before starting medical school. Good luck.

 

[kraskadva]

The reason I was looking at foreign medical schools is the cost - schools in E- Eu are 1/3rd the cost and the some in W Europe are free (if you can speak the local language).

Looks like nobody commented on this. Is it still not worth it going abroad if he's going to save himself the outrageous cost of med school in the US?

roaringtiger- you should definitely do some more research.

GirlMx- to give some concrete numbers to work with: Charles University, First Faculty of Medicine, in Prague (which is a good school and well respected) is 13,000 euros a year tuition. However it is a 6 year program, not 4. Most European schools are. If you speak native-level fluent Czech , you can go for free. I lived in Prague for 3 years and I don't, especially not medical/academic Czech. It's a tough language.
Anyway, 13000 x 6 years is 78000. Plus cost of living, books, the occasional night out- which would run you about 1500 euro a month if you live really cheaply. x6 years this brings us to a total of 186,000 euros. Throw in the occasional vacation, a random health issue, and a couple of unexpected costs and this rounds up to 200,000+ euros. Times the current exchange rate, which will bring it up a bit more in converting to dollars.

So far still slightly under the US med school average, but not by much.

The outrageous cost of med school in the US is offset by the ability of US citizens & GCs to borrow 100% of the cost of attendance through federal programs, and to pay back those loans with outrageous salaries and loan repayment programs.

If you save, for example, $200,000 by going to an offshore school, such as in Poland, and you're only able to get a family medicine residency in the US, then within two years after residency you probably lost $200,000 in salary. After a third year in practice you've lost the salary that would cover accrued interest.

Somebody with decent stats going overseas to get a medical degree, with the intention of practicing in the US, is pretty much the same as going to Iowa to become a movie star.

You can get US loans to pay for certain overseas schools- like Charles University- however you're absolutely correct about the residency issues.

For the OP, and anyone else interested, because I thought about it too, but did my research-
One of the many difficulties inherent in that transition is that, if you come from a foreign medical school, in order to apply for a US residency you must first take all 3 stages of the USMLE. All of them, one after the other. Normally these would be part 1 after 2nd year of med school, part 2 in 4th year and part 3 after the intern year of residency.
And a "Can you practice medicine in English?" test, regardless of your nationality, native language, or language you studied in. Even if you're an American (or British, or Canadian), speak English and studied in English.

Then you have to compete with all the US grads for a slot, and they all have priority, even if your numbers happened to be better.

If you wanted to work in Europe, it would be a fine idea. If you want to work in the US, it's a monumental pain in the ass and doesn't really save you any money. Really. I've checked.

OP- with a 3.75 you have a good shot at getting into US schools, especially if all your other stats match up. Europe isn't the way to go unless you want to be in Europe.