non-traditional, where should I apply?

[Wolverine2116]

I'm applying to med schools this cycle and am still trying to narrow down my list of schools. I am a Michigan resident and got a BA in psychology from U of Michigan in 2007 with a GPA of 3.78. After graduation I worked in a psych hospital for a little over a year before taking a job in an ER at a local hospital. After a little over a year there I decided I wanted to do med school and started taking classes at Western Michigan full time. In a year and one summer I took calc1-4, a year of bio, a year of chem, and a year of calc-based physics with a 4.0 GPA. Western is about an hour from where I live so I only worked PRN for a year. But since I only had organic chem left to take, I stayed closer to home for the last year to take orgo I and II at Indiana-South Bend (I live just inside the Michigan border and work in South Bend). Unless I completely collapse on my finals next week I will have a 4.0 there as well. Also, I will be taking biochem in the fall.

My overall GPA is 3.85 with a 4.00 science GPA (unless the calc 2 and physics I took my first semester at Michigan also count into it. That would add a B+ and a B/A for the lecture and lab in physics). I will also have four years of experience working in an ER by the time I matriculate and one year in a psych hospital if that means anything. I do not have any kind of medical volunteer experiences I can think of, but I have done a few days of doctor shadowing with different specialties. I will also have a very good letter from one of the ER doctors.

Here is the problem, though: I start a Kaplan MCAT course next week and it goes until the end of July, so I do not take the actual test until August 5. While the scores will be out in plenty of time for me to interview early enough in the cycle it also means that I will be turning in my primaries without knowing my MCAT score. I know this means that I will have to apply across the spectrum because whatever score I get will be what I'm stuck with. On the bright side, I tend to do well on standardized exams and understood all of this material well the first time around. On the not-so-bright side, I have not taken anatomy or physiology and I'm learning that during the Kaplan course, as well as some physics and orgo that my classes did not get to.

Anything 30+ would be OK with me after hearing some horror stories. I think that could get me in somewhere. But I really think I should be able to get into the 32-34 range once I get used to the format and study the material for three months. That said, these are the schools I was thinking of applying to. I would like to get it down to ten schools. Any additional suggestions would be welcome:

Michigan (first choice, easily)
Wayne St.
Indiana
Wisconsin (although they say they require advanced bio so I don't know)
U of Chicago (my long shot school)
Loyola-Chicago
Northwestern (a problem since I haven't done research or volunteering)
Tulane
Maryland
Wake Forest
Virginia
Virginia Commonwealth
Cincinnati

It sounds like Wayne and VCU are two of the easier schools and Wayne is in-state for me. I also know I would get somewhat preferential treatment from Indiana since I have been at an IU campus and work in Indiana. But I am interested to hear what my chances are at the various schools if I get a decent MCAT score.

Also, I would like to apply to two DO schools just in case I have an off day for the MCAT or it is heavy in things I don't understand as well. However, I don't know where to apply to DO schools or what schools to apply to. So any additional help or suggestions there would be appreciated as well.

Thank you for any responses.

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[reddoc]

Your GPA is good but the michigan courses will count as will any college level courses. It sounds like your EC/research activities are on the weak side which will hurt. Its hard to predict without the MCAT. If you take the MCAT in August, the schools will not get the scores for about a month which puts you into september and then you will have to fill out secondaries. This is getting late in the cycle and will decrease your chances at some schools. If you apply this cycle, I would apply much more broadly and include more so called safety schools.

 

[Catalystik]

While you will have excellent clinical experience to list, and some shadowing, you haven't mentioned nonmedical community service, teaching, leadership, or research, all of which help to make a stronger application.

If you are set on applying this summer, you might apply to just one school initially to get your transcripts verified, and then add additional schools, after the score comes back, for which you are competitive. While waiting for the score, you can prewrite Secondary essays (from prompts found here on SDN), so that your turnaround time will be very fast when invited to send one in.

You can continue to beef up your application through the application year, adding some upper-level Bio, besides taking the Biochem, and improving the weak parts of your ECs, letting schools know through update letters, in an effort to sway adcomms positively on your file. If you end up reapplying, your application would be much stronger the second time.

 

[Wolverine2116]

Well I guess I am not sure what kinds of other ECs to include. I was part of a few national honors societies at Michigan, but was not heavily involved in any of them. I have volunteer/mission trip/leadership activities from high school, but I don't think those count. I tutored statistics for two years in college for the athletic department. If it matters, I got several scholarships to Michigan. Honestly, I have never done any research because I have always found it very boring. I know it will hurt me with some schools, but at this point there isn't much I can do about it between work and school. Also, taking additional courses is next to impossible since I am paying out of state tuition and money is an issue.

I really would like to apply this cycle because my only other option is taking the MCAT and then sitting around for a year to wait to apply again. Like I said, money is an issue with taking additional classes (I plan on doing independent study with some friends books). I was also under the impression that schools would send out secondaries as long as you put down a date for when you would take the MCAT; they just wouldn't look over anything until all of the info was in. And I would like to include plenty of safety schools, but I don't know which schools are safety schools. The advisor I talked to at IUSB wasn't any help in that department.

 

[Catalystik]

I tutored statistics for two years in college for the athletic department.

List this.

Also, taking additional courses is next to impossible since I am paying out of state tuition and money is an issue.

Aren't there any cheaper schools near enough in your own state? My point wasn't that you need to take more upper-level Bio. But if there's a school that requires more before matriculation that you'd love to attend, you could remain eligible for it if you list such a class as "future coursework."

I was also under the impression that schools would send out secondaries as long as you put down a date for when you would take the MCAT; they just wouldn't look over anything until all of the info was in.

Some schools send out Secondaries without prescreening and others don't, but you do have to pay an additional fee when you return them. Wouldn't you rather just pay for schools you have a real shot at?

 

[Wolverine2116]

I actually live right on the border to Indiana. The closest university with the upper level science classes I would need is Western Michigan which is over an hour away and is next to impossible while working full time. The gas money alone would kill me. And it would be even worse to move up there again. There are several community colleges in my area, but I have heard it is not a good idea to take your science classes there. Especially since I have already taken a step down from Michigan to Western/IUSB.

I agree that it would not be great to put out secondaries to places I have no chance to get into, but I also want to get them in as soon as possible so when my scores are in they can look over my application right away. Also, most of the reason for my original post is to figure out what places are more likely to accept someone like me assuming I do get a decent MCAT (30-32). I don't really have a burning desire to go to one of the top schools (unless it is U of M), but I would like to apply to several decent-good schools and several safety schools. I can look at the numbers online but they really don't mean all that much to me except for a few that stick out as being really high. I was hoping some people would be able to tell me which schools to look at that are "easier" to get into. Or at least where I can look instead of going to each school website individually and what to look for.

There is another thing I would like to get your opinion on, though, if you don't mind. It is somewhat related to this. Every doctor I have talked to has told me to go to the cheapest place possible for med school. All of them told me to stay in state if possible and go wherever costs the least amount of money. They say that med school is med school and that if you want to travel or go to a top location then try to do it in residency. Now I can see how most of the top residency spots would want students from the top med schools, but aside from that is this advice that is commonly given? Granted, I talk to mostly ER doctors, but I have also heard this from a hospitalist, cardiologist, psychiatrist, and pulmonologist. And it's the only advice I have gotten from everyone that has been exactly the same.

 

[Catalystik]

I was hoping some people would be able to tell me which schools to look at that are "easier" to get into.

There is another thing I would like to get your opinion on, though, if you don't mind. It is somewhat related to this. Every doctor I have talked to has told me to go to the cheapest place possible for med school.

Now I can see how most of the top residency spots would want students from the top med schools, but aside from that is this advice that is commonly given?

Less selective schools with a good OOS matriculation rate (get more info from an MSAR about costs, mission, and selection factors):
Loma Linda, Loyola, RFU, UKentucky, Creighton, Albany, SUNY Downstate, Hofstra (new), Jefferson, MCW,
UIllinois, Wayne, Buffalo, Toledo, UNebraska, Drexel, Temple, Vermont, VCU, Virginia Tech Carilion (new),
GWU, FIU, Louisville, Tulane, UNevada (from region and [W]WAMI), NYMC, MUSC, SCarolina, EVMS, Florida Atlantic University (new),
Rush, Michigan State, Oakland (new),
Commonwealth MC in Pa


Being debt adverse, I agree completely with the advice you've been given.

If you are at an inexpensive, relatively-unknown state school, your ability to match into a competitive residency will only be limited if you can't get high Step scores, Honors in 3rd year clerkships, appropriate research, and don't demonstrate good interview skills. Regardless of curriculum style, you are basically in charge of teaching all the requisite material to yourself. Hard work, ambition, and determination pay off no matter where you attend. I've personally seen this happen over and over again.

 

[Wolverine2116]

Thank you so much for your help. I did not know many of those places had MD schools. Someone gave me a list of med schools that I have been looking through and several of those schools aren't on it. This gives me a lot more options on the less selective side. I'm glad that two of these schools are in-state for me (unless Oakland is the one in Michigan as well? I didn't think they had a med school).

What is the honors in 3rd year clerkships? And does everyone do research in med school? I think medically-related research would be a lot more interesting than most anything other kind.

 

[Wolverine2116]

There was another you mentioned that I wanted to ask about. What did you mean about the application being verified? I am pretty sure I can get the primary application in by June 1 or whenever the date is. Is there a gap then before they are given to colleges? I'm not even sure how that process works.

 

[Catalystik]

Thank you so much for your help. I did not know many of those places had MD schools. Someone gave me a list of med schools that I have been looking through and several of those schools aren't on it. This gives me a lot more options on the less selective side. I'm glad that two of these schools are in-state for me (unless Oakland is the one in Michigan as well? I didn't think they had a med school).

What is the honors in 3rd year clerkships? And does everyone do research in med school? I think medically-related research would be a lot more interesting than most anything other kind.

Oakland is in Michigan.

Third year clerkships are "graded" with Honors being the best performance.

Everyone does not do research in med school.

 

[Catalystik]

There was another you mentioned that I wanted to ask about. What did you mean about the application being verified? I am pretty sure I can get the primary application in by June 1 or whenever the date is. Is there a gap then before they are given to colleges? I'm not even sure how that process works.

AMCAS must compare your official transcripts with what you have entered, and change anything you got wrong. When they complete this, you are considered "verified." It takes a few days in early June and up to 6 weeks by October. Verified applications will be released to med schools on June 10 this year, but that doesn't mean med schools will read them that early. Last year they were released about June 26.

 

[Wolverine2116]

If you don't mind answering questions, I have a few more. How many schools do people really apply to? I originally thought 10 MD and 2 DO, but should I go for more? I guess once I get the MCAT scores back I will have a better idea which additional schools I should apply to?

Also, I looked at the Michigan St DO school and they require a semester of genetics, which I found slightly annoying since med schools don't require it. I plan on contacting them about it, but do you think they would allow that to be taken at a CC to save money? They also recommend 16-20 credit hours of upper level bio, but I will be independently studying A&P and I had a hormone class and a neuropsych class at Michigan that were bio heavy. Will a lack of micro really hurt?

I'm sure this varies depending on the school, but I notice several schools want letters from an undergraduate committee. I have no idea which school I would even ask for that from. I took the bulk of my classes at Michigan, but almost no science there. I split science between Western and IUSB and was non-degree at both so I saw an advisor once at each school. I do have a professor from each school that is willing to write a letter, though.

Speaking of which, is a LOR from a nurse a bad idea? I have both an MD and DO that will write good letters for the respective schools. I wanted to get the ER director to write one for me, but he is first generation Polish and his grammar can get pretty grating. He told me I could write one for myself and he would sign it, but I don't feel comfortable with that. One of the charge nurses I work with wants to write one and I know her very well and she thinks highly of me so I know it would be a good letter, but I have been told that med schools would not want to hear from a nurse.

FWIW, I took the Kaplan diagnostic today to gauge where I'm at and scored a 28. I did very well on the verbal, which surprised me. I got an 11 there (even though I only missed 4 questions?). The PS I missed the most questions on, but got a 9. Several of them I missed for stupid reasons (read the question wrong, clicked on the wrong answer, multiplied the wrong value, etc.) and several I just did not know because my physics class did not get to certain areas that of course were all over the test. I got an 8 on BS, but all I can say for that one is that I have 3 months to teach myself physio. On the bright side, I got most of the chem questions and almost every ochem question right. So I feel more confident now that with several months of studying the material and working on the format I can do well on the MCAT when I take it.

Sorry for all the questions. This is the only place that has answered any of the questions I have had.

 

[p1acebo]

If you don't mind answering questions, I have a few more. How many schools do people really apply to? I originally thought 10 MD and 2 DO, but should I go for more? I guess once I get the MCAT scores back I will have a better idea which additional schools I should apply to?

Also, I looked at the Michigan St DO school and they require a semester of genetics, which I found slightly annoying since med schools don't require it. I plan on contacting them about it, but do you think they would allow that to be taken at a CC to save money? They also recommend 16-20 credit hours of upper level bio, but I will be independently studying A&P and I had a hormone class and a neuropsych class at Michigan that were bio heavy. Will a lack of micro really hurt?

I'm sure this varies depending on the school, but I notice several schools want letters from an undergraduate committee. I have no idea which school I would even ask for that from. I took the bulk of my classes at Michigan, but almost no science there. I split science between Western and IUSB and was non-degree at both so I saw an advisor once at each school. I do have a professor from each school that is willing to write a letter, though.

Speaking of which, is a LOR from a nurse a bad idea? I have both an MD and DO that will write good letters for the respective schools. I wanted to get the ER director to write one for me, but he is first generation Polish and his grammar can get pretty grating. He told me I could write one for myself and he would sign it, but I don't feel comfortable with that. One of the charge nurses I work with wants to write one and I know her very well and she thinks highly of me so I know it would be a good letter, but I have been told that med schools would not want to hear from a nurse.

FWIW, I took the Kaplan diagnostic today to gauge where I'm at and scored a 28. I did very well on the verbal, which surprised me. I got an 11 there (even though I only missed 4 questions?). The PS I missed the most questions on, but got a 9. Several of them I missed for stupid reasons (read the question wrong, clicked on the wrong answer, multiplied the wrong value, etc.) and several I just did not know because my physics class did not get to certain areas that of course were all over the test. I got an 8 on BS, but all I can say for that one is that I have 3 months to teach myself physio. On the bright side, I got most of the chem questions and almost every ochem question right. So I feel more confident now that with several months of studying the material and working on the format I can do well on the MCAT when I take it.

Sorry for all the questions. This is the only place that has answered any of the questions I have had.

You can't supplement a CC genetics course for the requirement, they want you to take it (you have to take genetics in med school anyways).

In addition, I agree with the above posters, you could use MORE upper level bio courses. MSUCOM looks for those hard as well as other med schools. They aren't required but if you want to be competitive you need to take them and do well.

 

[Catalystik]

1) How many schools do people really apply to? I originally thought 10 MD and 2 DO, but should I go for more?

2) I guess once I get the MCAT scores back I will have a better idea which additional schools I should apply to?

3) I'm sure this varies depending on the school, but I notice several schools want letters from an undergraduate committee. I have no idea which school I would even ask for that from. I took the bulk of my classes at Michigan, but almost no science there. I split science between Western and IUSB and was non-degree at both so I saw an advisor once at each school. I do have a professor from each school that is willing to write a letter, though.

4) Speaking of which, is a LOR from a nurse a bad idea?

1) Applying to 20ish schools is typical, but sometimes more with a weak application or less if one has geopgraphic constraints or a very strong application.

2) Yes.

3) All schools don't have a prehealth committee that writes a letter. If you are not currently enrolled in a school that has one, then you send individual letters, typically two science faculty that taught you, one nonscience, and a PI, though individual schools may ask for others. Mostly DO schools want a physician letter.

4) Yes, unless she is your boss.

 

[Wolverine2116]

What do you mean by supplement the CC genetics course?

Well my current school is IU-South Bend, but I have only taken by orgo there. I took all my other science classes at Western. So I feel like Western has a better idea of my overall science ability. I have only had one professor at IUSB and he has already agreed to write a letter for me.

 

[Wolverine2116]

Just as an update...

I found out that my current school does not have a pre-health committee, which works out better for me anyway. I have also found out that I can switch to full time at the hospital in the fall, so the hospital will give me a little bit of money toward school which means I can stay at IUSB. And I have turned my application into AMCAS and it has been verified (still working on editing my essay to fit the DO application). These are the schools I have applied to for now:

Michigan, MSU, Wayne, Oakland (all in-state)
Indiana (special consideration due to working and going to school in Indiana)
Illinois, Loyola, Maryland, Tulane

I have the next month and a half to study for the MCAT and judging by practice tests and section tests I'm hopeful/confident I can pull out a low to mid 30s score.

I do have a question about what to expect now, though. I know most schools send out secondaries to anyone who applies, but how long does it usually take before they are sent out? And what is on them besides another couple essays to write? Is that information in the forums somewhere?

Another question: I have four letters of recommendation and only two have been submitted so far. One should be submitted this week and the other may be another few weeks still. Should I wait until both are in to resubmit my AMCAS and update it for the med schools? When I resubmit does it simply update what they have or does it have to go through the whole process again? I'm not sure how that works.