Nontrads who were making 150k+ - do you regret switching fields?

[Zyra]

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Sounds like applying to medical school 😉

In all seriousness, my brother went to a T14
law school and hated his life afterward. He decided to pursue in-house law and got a job for a company in the San Francisco area. It's still stressful, he still works a lot, and COL is very high, but he can sleep until 8 am, meet his wife for lunch, and has a 10 minute commute home. There are ways to improve your quality of life without a dramatic career change.

Yeah except you are basically guaranteed admissions to some med school with like an early 30s mcat (80th percentileish) and good GPA and some extracurriculars....its much more predictable. Even if you went to Yale law school, a fed gov job is not guaranteed...keeping in mind pretty much all top 14 law school grads already scored above a 95th percentile on the LSAT...and Yale law grads are pretty much 3.9 GPAS with 99th percentile lsat.

Lots of inhouse lawyers still have bad qol. I don't want to work crazy hours for life, so I am thinking of gov or nonprofit jobs. My friends in fed gov love life....GS 15 jobs pay like 150k with some pension and a 35 hour work week plus telework from home 3 days a week. Depending on the agency, fed gov jobs are pretty much unicorn fairytale jobs these days.

Everyone clamored for a biglaw job out of law school, but fed gov is really the best long term job opp. Now if only I knew how to get one...

 

[Zyra]

If finances are a part of the motivation to switch occupations, I would highly advise choosing a field that has more growth potential and less stress. There are many factors to consider as to why I would suggest this, but for me personally, the occupational transition has nothing to do with financial gain.

A field within medicine or out of it? I'm also open to other careers at the moment...including programming...so open to any ideas and thoughts as to what's growing and is less stressful.

 

[wonder12]

.

 

[QofQuimica]

I am in a similar boat. My wife and I share a similar world view, We would like to early semi-retire but continue to practice medicine. I believe part of the desire to become a physician stems from completing something difficult and the satisfaction related to that and improving outcomes is a reward different from monetary compensation. It will probably open up some good work life balance opportunities including part time or week on week off depending on the specialty.

Agree with L2D that you are likely underestimating the pressures to work more (and longer) hours while letting your personal life go on the back burner, particularly early in your career. It's not that easy. If it were, don't you think everyone would be doing it?

I can be the exception who proves the rule because I live a nontraditional lifestyle, and none of the usual pressures that keep physicians (and other upper middle class professionals) in the rat race apply to me. For example, I'm not interested in gaining tenure and don't even consider medicine as being my career per se, so I don't care about the effect of quitting my job or working PT on my career prospects. (Actually, from my perspective, I don't have any career.) I can also afford not to work as a physician ever again: I don't have any debt; I've already saved up enough money to retire on at traditional age; and my expenses are very low, so I don't need a six figure salary.

The issue to me is more that I'm 41 years old and basically too young to be put out to pasture playing shuffleboard all day. But the point is, working as a physician is completely optional for me. I could walk out right now and burn every bridge with my current employer if I chose to. I could even stop working altogether for the rest of my life right now if I were willing to cut out my "luxury" spending and live on a strict budget. Is that true for you? And more importantly, will that be true for you right after you come out of residency? If not, and particularly if you're geographically limited, you'd better be prepared to answer "how high?" when your future employer tells you to jump.

 

[Zyra]

Agree with L2D that you are likely underestimating the pressures to work more (and longer) hours while letting your personal life go on the back burner, particularly early in your career. It's not that easy. If it were, don't you think everyone would be doing it?

I can be the exception who proves the rule because I live a nontraditional lifestyle, and none of the usual pressures that keep physicians (and other upper middle class professionals) in the rat race apply to me. For example, I'm not interested in gaining tenure and don't even consider medicine as being my career per se, so I don't care about the effect of quitting my job or working PT on my career prospects. (Actually, from my perspective, I don't have any career.) I can also afford not to work as a physician ever again: I don't have any debt; I've already saved up enough money to retire on at traditional age; and my expenses are very low, so I don't need a six figure salary.

The issue to me is more that I'm 41 years old and basically too young to be put out to pasture playing shuffleboard all day. But the point is, working as a physician is completely optional for me. I could walk out right now and burn every bridge with my current employer if I chose to. I could even stop working altogether for the rest of my life right now if I were willing to cut out my "luxury" spending and live on a strict budget. Is that true for you? And more importantly, will that be true for you right after you come out of residency? If not, and particularly if you're geographically limited, you'd better be prepared to answer "how high?" when your future employer tells you to jump.

Did you do PhD first, then MD? What made you decide to switch to clinical, if so?

Also pretty awesome to have that financial freedom. I think a lot of people get tied down with financial obligations/lots of kids/expenses/etc. without thinking about whether it's something they want, or just something society expects, if they are thinking about it at all. And frankly, the more I work, the more I question the working culture in the USA...lol.

 

[libertyyne]

Agree with L2D that you are likely underestimating the pressures to work more (and longer) hours while letting your personal life go on the back burner, particularly early in your career. It's not that easy. If it were, don't you think everyone would be doing it?

I get L2D's point about the importance of being 60+ hours for the early stages of one's career. It is a craft that requires practice and dedication.It immediately reminded me of :

“Practice is funny that way. For days and days, you make out only the fragments of what to do. And then one day you've got the thing whole. Conscious learning becomes unconscious knowledge, and you cannot say precisely how.”
― Atul Gawande, Complications: A Surgeon's Notes on an Imperfect Science
​

I was just under the impression this occurred during the first five years after residency. However, flex scheduling would be perk in my mind even if the hours are ungodly during the time I am working.

Family Practice Mean 2524 hours over a year.
https://www.amainsure.com/reports/work-life-profiles-of-todays-us-physician.html
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1105820

Family Practice at 2500 hours is roughly 50 hours a week for 50 weeks.

I can be the exception who proves the rule because I live a nontraditional lifestyle, and none of the usual pressures that keep physicians (and other upper middle class professionals) in the rat race apply to me. For example, I'm not interested in gaining tenure and don't even consider medicine as being my career per se, so I don't care about the effect of quitting my job or working PT on my career prospects. (Actually, from my perspective, I don't have any career.) I can also afford not to work as a physician ever again: I don't have any debt; I've already saved up enough money to retire on at traditional age; and my expenses are very low, so I don't need a six figure salary.

Our household currently earns 150K+, however, you wouldn't know that if you saw us. We drive 15 year old cars, shop at Aldi and rarely make any purchases beyond the basics. We mostly spend our money on topping off our 403b's, Roth IRA's and buying index funds. We moved to a low COL area on purpose, with a well defined budget, live in a small house, and dont eat out more than twice a month. After the great recession we had a come to Yaweh/Jesus/Mohammed moment with our consumerist "lifestyles" and remain deeply influenced by it. We would probably retire earlier if I didn't go to medical school considering the opportunity cost and added debt. However, I still would very much like to attend medical school.

The issue to me is more that I'm 41 years old and basically too young to be put out to pasture playing shuffleboard all day. But the point is, working as a physician is completely optional for me. I could walk out right now and burn every bridge with my current employer if I chose to. I could even stop working altogether for the rest of my life right now if I were willing to cut out my "luxury" spending and live on a strict budget. Is that true for you? And more importantly, will that be true for you right after you come out of residency? If not, and particularly if you're geographically limited, you'd better be prepared to answer "how high?" when your future employer tells you to jump.

I always assumed people moved constantly during Medical School->Residency->Fellowship->Job. The truth is I dont know what practice looks like in 10 years considering the tectonic changes currently taking place in medicine and the frenzied assimilation of medical practices into larger systems. Heck, I know for a fact that even large healthcare systems dont have a clue on how to transition to the desired future state.So it may be I will work for pennies on the dollar because of the decreased power as a physican with limited alternatives and end up working 80 hour weeks, or I will tell my employer to pay me less to work 40 hours over three days a week. (All of that after paying my dues ). But the grass will always be greener on the other side regardless of what profession you are in.

 

[QofQuimica]

Did you do PhD first, then MD? What made you decide to switch to clinical, if so?

Yes, I did my degrees separately. I did the MD afterward because I was interested in clinical research and academic medicine.

Also pretty awesome to have that financial freedom. I think a lot of people get tied down with financial obligations/lots of kids/expenses/etc. without thinking about whether it's something they want, or just something society expects, if they are thinking about it at all. And frankly, the more I work, the more I question the working culture in the USA...lol.

Agree. But if you choose not to do those things (get married, have children, own a home, have a career, live an upper middle class lifestyle commensurate with your income), you will be bucking a lot of social norms. I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing. It just is.

 

[Esquire]

I was just under the impression this occurred during the first five years after residency. However, flex scheduling would be perk in my mind even if the hours are ungodly during the time I am working.

So it may be I will work for pennies on the dollar because of the decreased power as a physican with limited alternatives and end up working 80 hour weeks, or I will tell my employer to pay me less to work 40 hours over three days a week. (All of that after paying my dues ). But the grass will always be greener on the other side regardless of what profession you are in.

1. 4 days/wk is common in FM straight out of residency, and you could probably negotiate three 12 hr days. Part time FM wih full time benefits is also common at the VA. The higher paying specialties are not amenable to part time work, which is why they're higher paying. Regarding shift work specialties, they tend to be hospital-based, which means very sick patients. So the low hours are deceiving. You have no idea how taxing it is to see patient after patient, every 12 minutes, especially when the majority are 85 years old with 25 medical problems.

2. OP, you seem more interested in early retirement than medicine. Medicine is not for you.

 

[libertyyne]

1. 4 days/wk is common in FM straight out of residency, and you could probably negotiate three 12 hr days. Part time FM wih full time benefits is also common at the VA. The higher paying specialties are not amenable to part time work, which is why they're higher paying. Regarding shift work specialties, they tend to be hospital-based, which means very sick patients. So the low hours are deceiving. You have no idea how taxing it is to see patient after patient, every 12 minutes, especially when the majority are 85 years old with 25 medical problems.

2. OP, you seem more interested in early retirement than medicine. Medicine is not for you.

I think you misunderstood the purpose of the living frugally comment. It was intended to show that we would be content in working less and getting paid less. I guess no work life balance can ever be expected as part of medicine.

 

[futuremdforme]

2. OP, you seem more interested in early retirement than medicine. Medicine is not for you.

THIS!!!

 

[Zyra]

Yes, I did my degrees separately. I did the MD afterward because I was interested in clinical research and academic medicine.


Agree. But if you choose not to do those things (get married, have children, own a home, have a career, live an upper middle class lifestyle commensurate with your income), you will be bucking a lot of social norms. I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing. It just is.

What made you want to do Pharm now?

Just curious - did you buy property or are you thinking of renting indefinitely?

Yeah, I don't know. I am married, but not sure we want kids to be honest. I guess we'll just see what happens....lol. Neither of us want to maintain a big house and we don't like doing housework, so I think if we bought anything it'd be a small, manageable property.

 

[Zyra]

THIS!!!

I waffle between doing something nontraditional like doing contract work and living in Thailand and going back to school formally....I loved school (was a math major in undergrad, plus law school was awesome) (really loved it - it is awesome compared to working, at least as a lawyer). I think part it is knowing that you can study new subjects each semester or that something is "finite" - when you start working, that's pretty much it until death.....working life is a bit anticlimactic and often I just think, "this is it forever?" Now I understand why my TAs in college went back to school in their thirties to get PhDs.

Not to mention, at least in big firms, the hours are infinitely worse and you have little free time to do other stuff.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I waffle between doing contract work in programming or whatever and living in Thailand abroad, or going back to school formally....I loved school (was a math major in undergrad, plus law school was awesome) (really loved it - it is awesome compared to working, at least as a lawyer). I think part it is knowing that you can study new subjects each semester or that something is "finite" - when you start working, that's pretty much it until death.....working life is a bit anticlimactic and often you just think "this is it forever?" Working life has made me understand why my TAs in college went back to school in their thirties to get PhDs.

Not to mention, at least in big firms, the hours are infinitely worse and you have little free time to do other stuff.

Sounds like you just don't want a real job. That's not supposed to sound rude. But it sounds like you just want to be a professional student or find some way to get paid to live a similar lifestyle.

 

[Zyra]

Sounds like you just don't want a real job. That's not supposed to sound rude. But it sounds like you just want to be a professional student or find some way to get paid to live a similar lifestyle.

Yeah, well, working a structured job blows (esp. one that requires 60 to 80 hour weeks on average) - adult life is very mediocre compared to a student's life IMO. haha.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yeah, well, working a structured job blows (esp. one that requires 60 to 80 hour weeks on average) - adult life is very mediocre compared to a student's life IMO. haha.

You should try the military. 😉

 

[Zyra]

You should try the military. 😉

Ha, I think I might be too old for that now. However, one of my friends just joined the FBI as a Special Agent (he's also a lawyer). I've also thought about the police force or FBI - just need to get into peak physical condition for the examinations though.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Ha, I think I might be too old for that now. However, one of my friends just joined the FBI as a Special Agent (he's also a lawyer). I've also thought about the police force or FBI - just need to get into peak physical condition for the examinations though.

Meh. Go for the FBI or another investigative agency. Police work isn't what it used to be. It gets tiring having to contact hundreds of people and be ready to kill all of them in case they attack you or someone else.

I joined at 28 (32 now), and I know someone who joined at 30. My buddy from church became a SEAL in his late 20s lol.

 

[Zyra]

Meh. Go for the FBI or another investigative agency. Police work isn't what it used to be. It gets tiring having to contact hundreds of people and be ready to kill all of them in case they attack you or someone else.

I joined at 28 (32 now), and I know someone who joined at 30. My buddy from church became a SEAL in his late 20s lol.

Nice. Are you still in it? I'm not fat but not fit either so not sure I can cut it in the military unless I become much fitter than I am now. Becoming a SEAL is insanely hard - I read about the hazing they have to do. LOL - no way I can pass that. haha.

With the FBI, you have to train at Quantico for a few months but not sure that the day to day stuff requires as much physical ability as the military does. It'd be awesome to FBI or another similar agency.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Nice. Are you still in it? I'm not fat but not fit either so not sure I can cut it in the military unless I become much fitter than I am now. Becoming a SEAL is insanely hard - I read about the hazing they have to do. LOL - no way I can pass that. haha.

I'm still in. Almost 5 years.

Also, it's not hazing if it's for a good reason. 😉 My friend said Hell Week was great practice for staying up for 5 days with minimal sleep and food while sitting in a swamp and ****ting your pants on the off chance you see your target for ten minutes.

With the FBI, you have to train at Quantico for a few months but not sure that the day to day stuff requires as much physical ability as the military does. It'd be awesome to FBI or another similar agency.

Yeah, not sure. I know the State Police agency I got hired by (chose the military instead for the bennies) PTs like crazy every day. The military depends on your branch and job. Most surface and sub guys don't PT a ton, but they beat the hell out of us in dive school.

 

[Zyra]

I'm still in. Almost 5 years.

Also, it's not hazing if it's for a good reason. 😉 My friend said Hell Week was great practice for staying up for 5 days with minimal sleep and food while sitting in a swamp and ****ting your pants on the off chance you see your target for ten minutes.



Yeah, not sure. I know the State Police agency I got hired by (chose the military instead for the bennies) PTs like crazy every day. The military depends on your branch and job. Most surface and sub guys don't PT a ton, but they beat the hell out of us in dive school.

Yeah, honestly not sure I can cut it for the military...lol. Never been a super into exercise type either.

Are you thinking of doing med school now? What about working for the DEA? Seems super interesting, although dangerous.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yeah, honestly not sure I can cut it for the military...lol. Never been a super into exercise type either.

Are you thinking of doing med school now? What about working for the DEA? Seems super interesting, although dangerous.

I'm currently applying for a program for enlisted who possess a bachelors. It's basically a post-bacc but you stay on active duty and get paid while you do your pre-reqs, take the MCAT, and apply. If you get in, you commission into your service as a medical officer.

Edit: I carry a gun a few days a week as it is. The vest and bat belt are killer on the back.

 

[Zyra]

I'm currently applying for a program for enlisted who possess a bachelors. It's basically a post-bacc but you stay on active duty and get paid while you do your pre-reqs, take the MCAT, and apply. If you get in, you commission into your service as a medical officer.

Edit: I carry a gun a few days a week as it is. The vest and bat belt are killer on the back.

Sounds like a good deal if you don't have to pay for a post-bac. One big reason why I am leaning towards not doing medicine is that I really don't want to deal with student loan debt again....had enough of that in law school.

As for cops, apparently they have awesome pensions. In some areas (like upstate NY) they easily clear 150k after a few years. Maybe you could work in a nicer area - like Maui? I wouldn't mind being a cop in Hawaii, lol.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Sounds like a good deal if you don't have to pay for a post-bac. One big reason why I am leaning towards not doing medicine is that I really don't want to deal with student loan debt again....had enough of that in law school.

Yeah. **** debt.

As for cops, apparently they have awesome pensions. In some areas (like upstate NY) they easily clear 150k after a few years. Maybe you could work in a nicer area - like Maui? I wouldn't mind being a cop in Hawaii, lol.

They have good pensions, but you have to survive (both literally and politically) until then. Nowadays, a lot of civilian departments will just can you if they think a suit or a riot might be brewing because of your actions.

The HPD is notoriously hard to get into. Hawaii is pretty racist when it comes to hiring non-islanders. Oahu is also a super ****ty place to live outside the North Shore. Go there on vacation and live somewhere else.

 

[Gulliver Dark]

I'm currently in fed law enforcement, applying this cycle, leaving behind a ridiculously killer pension and close to 150k salary. Money won't make you (or at least me) happy. If early retirement does, fed LE has a pretty sick retirement at 50 (minimum 20 years or 25 years if you want to retire before 50, which if you've been to law school I doubt you are under 25).

That said, if you don't like long hours, lots of paperwork, and dealing with ****ty attorneys, don't do it. It isn't sexy like the TV shows. It is fun every once in a while, and every time I indict or convict a horrible felon I have a half minute of doubt about changing careers, but I get over it.

Still, I do worry that I'm trading one job I'm not satisfied in for another I won't be - but from shadowing, etc, I don't think that will be the case.

 

[Dr.Tao]

"Depending on the agency, fed gov jobs are pretty much unicorn fairytale jobs these days."

Not if you're a Physician. 😉

I personally think that ANY major thoughts/concern about income/money in a conversation about going to med school, means a "no" to the answer of whether or not to go for a medical career. I don't know anyone whose primary interest in a career that's significantly based on money to be happy people, no matter what career they choose. And the stress of a medical career seems to make people prone to being depressed, more so.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

"Depending on the agency, fed gov jobs are pretty much unicorn fairytale jobs these days."

Not if you're a Physician. 😉

That's why we were talking specifically about law jobs.

I personally think that ANY major thoughts/concern about income/money in a conversation about going to med school, means a "no" to the answer of whether or not to go for a medical career. I don't know anyone whose primary interest in a career that's significantly based on money to be happy people, no matter what career they choose. And the stress of a medical career seems to make people prone to being depressed, more so.

Agreed.

 

[QofQuimica]

What made you want to do Pharm now?

Just curious - did you buy property or are you thinking of renting indefinitely?

Yeah, I don't know. I am married, but not sure we want kids to be honest. I guess we'll just see what happens....lol. Neither of us want to maintain a big house and we don't like doing housework, so I think if we bought anything it'd be a small, manageable property.

I don't want to do pharm now. In retrospect, I would have done it instead of medical school.

I don't own any property, unless you count my REIT fund. Or my car. 🙂

 

[DoctorLane]

A field within medicine or out of it? I'm also open to other careers at the moment...including programming...so open to any ideas and thoughts as to what's growing and is less stressful.

Outside of the medical field. Financially, medicine is not very lucrative in most cases, and getting involved in something that you truly enjoy is going to bode well for you. Let's face it, hard work in any profession will present its fair-share of stress, but there are so many opportunities in tech and other modern markets (as you pointed out) that will be more fulfilling. I was in a business that I enjoyed very much, but medicine is what I live for. Find THAT thing for you. If you think it may be medicine, I strongly suggest doing some shadowing in different fields and asking a lot of questions.

It sounds like you have drive, so you'll be fine

 

[Zyra]

Outside of the medical field. Financially, medicine is not very lucrative in most cases, and getting involved in something that you truly enjoy is going to bode well for you. Let's face it, hard work in any profession will present its fair-share of stress, but there are so many opportunities in tech and other modern markets (as you pointed out) that will be more fulfilling. I was in a business that I enjoyed very much, but medicine is what I live for. Find THAT thing for you. If you think it may be medicine, I strongly suggest doing some shadowing in different fields and asking a lot of questions.

It sounds like you have drive, so you'll be fine

I know what I enjoy - but unfortunately, these things don't pay much. 🙂 I feel like I need to make a switch though for the long haul because we only have one life to live. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Zyra]

I'm currently in fed law enforcement, applying this cycle, leaving behind a ridiculously killer pension and close to 150k salary. Money won't make you (or at least me) happy. If early retirement does, fed LE has a pretty sick retirement at 50 (minimum 20 years or 25 years if you want to retire before 50, which if you've been to law school I doubt you are under 25).

That said, if you don't like long hours, lots of paperwork, and dealing with ****ty attorneys, don't do it. It isn't sexy like the TV shows. It is fun every once in a while, and every time I indict or convict a horrible felon I have a half minute of doubt about changing careers, but I get over it.

Still, I do worry that I'm trading one job I'm not satisfied in for another I won't be - but from shadowing, etc, I don't think that will be the case.

Part of the reason why I'm considering medicine is because I don't enjoy what I'm doing now. I'll be honest - your career sounds pretty awesome to me (from the outside looking in). I don't know if I'd pursue medicine if I were in your shoes. lol.

 

[Zyra]

As someone who retired at 32: its boring. As hell.

I left something I hated, so it was great to get away from it. But what to do on Tuesday at 10:15? Fun to catch up on movies and games and downtime, but then what?

If what you want is early retirement, get either plumber's or electrician's training in high school, get a union gig at 18, get a bunch of licenses/certs/experience, live at home for a year or two, buy a dirt-cheap house somewhere, then buy 2-3 more and rent them out. If you keep lifestyle in check, you're retired by 25. And bored. As hell.



If you're batting eyes at a 40 hour week, I don't know what field you expect will work out for you. Teaching? Maybe after you get tenure and you milk it.

I have some hobbies/interests that I'd like to pursue aside from what I'm formally trained to do. I'd totally run with these hobbies/interests, rather than work a structured job. Maybe start a non profit of some kind helping animals, etc. I don't necessarily mean just sit at home all day watching TV.

As for working a 40 hour work week - one of my parents was a CPA and worked in house at a corporation. Hours were pretty much a standard 40 hour work week. It's not impossible to get as long as you don't work in a big city (so not New York or SF, etc.) and you aren't working for a Big 4 accounting firm, etc. Obviously, when companies release reports/during tax season, it's busier, but for most of the year it's 40. If you live in a smaller market, I think a 40 hour work week is more obtainable, although it is harder to get these days with the Internet/people being on call, etc.