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Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by fly79, May 11, 2007.
northwestern. unless you are drawn to rochester for some reason.
Gotta love the windy city.
Bump. Anyone want to discuss this one? I was recently accepted off both waitlists (Northwestern just today) and need to make my decision.
I really liked the feel at Rochester. The curriculum is very integrated, early clinical exposure (ambulatory clerkship in first year), and it just seemed very student-centered. Grading is HP/P/F in the first two yrs. I grew up in the Rochester area, so this is also like "going home" for me, which would be nice, but is not important for any particular reason.
Northwestern has the minimized class time, the location in Chicago with an overall more diverse patient base (though not sure about at the NW hospital), and P/F in the first 2 yrs. I have spent a total of 20 hours ever in Chicago and they were during my interview day. It's obviously a much bigger, more diverse city than Rochester, but it's in the middle of the country away from my family and friends (who seem to be coast-dwellers).
I don't have finaid info from either school yet, but thinking that Rochester will probably end up being slightly cheaper due to lower cost of living.
I don't have a good feel for the difference in "prestige" between the two. NW is ranked higher, but not by a ton. Any input there would be great.
I'm totally torn. Anyone else make this decision? Thoughts?
Sorry for this massive post
The one with cheaper tuition.
Go wherever you feel you'll succeed. Personally, I thought Northwestern was great: faculty, students, curriculum, city. But, if you think being closer to home suits you best, Rochester.
northwestern. I don't like the rochester area at all.
Northwestern. Rochester seemed nice when I interviewed, but the Double Helix curriculum thing seems like it would be nice at first (extra clinical exposure the first two years) and then lose its charm when you're still doing stuff in 3rd and 4th years that most people do in pre-clinical years. Also, the diversity of the patient population seems like it would be way better in Chicago. Also, Chicago would be a way cooler place to live.
rochester sucks as a city. you will be bored socially if you go there. I am speaking from experience. Northwestern is way cooler go there. you'll have a grand time, and money well spent. Everytime i think of northwester i think of Richard from Van Wilder ; )
FYI, grading at Rochester is Pass/Fail first two years. No high pass.
No one else for Rochester???? I loved that school. I even loved the quiet city feel with pretty houses, funky downtown, great parks... I guess it's not for everybody, esp the winter.
FWIW, Rochester students seem to pick that school because they get such a good feel from it. Everyone mentions how they felt at home and enthusiastic just being there, talking to the other students, etc. Seems to me that if you feel good about it, you would be happiest there. It's not about French restaurants per square mile. Do you love the school? If so, go there.
But how much time did they give you to make a decision?
Thanks for all the thoughts, guys.
I am leaning towards Rochester, but still trying to figure out if it's not logical to pass up Northwestern. Or are they close enough to feel okay about doing so?
First Year Student Budget: $62,485 (they better be offering a top notch education with out of this world facilities
no, I know this probably does not even begin to cover the cost of training us
haha Im speaking like I have already been accepted) Score: -1
: Two primary university loans available to medical students, but they are not available to students unless you have already secured at least $18,500 in federal loans (what the heck is this madness
are they stingy or something
they are already expensive as hell)
the good thing is that it has a 5% interest rate, need based scholarships/grants, merit scholarship (notice singular), % of Enrolled students receiving financial aid: 74%, Average amount per scholarship/grant: $14,472, Average 2006 graduate indebtedness: $150,468 (ummm ok so this school is out of control
I bet it is b/c they decided to place their campus in the nicest part of the city
lol) Score: 1.5
: integrated, organ-based basic science curriculum, lectures emphasize active learning
meaning mostly small group interaction, self-directed study, very minimal in class time
no more than 10 hours per week, group seminars, PBL discussions, computer-assisted sessions (aids to student learning),
Second year curriculum is called the Scientific Basis of Medicine, Clinical Clerkships: Introduction to Clinical Clerkships (1 week), OB/GYN (6 weeks), Pediatrics (6 weeks), Medicine (12 weeks), Surgery (12 weeks
nice), Primary Care (4 weeks), Neurology (4 weeks), Psychiatry (4 weeks), Acting Internship (6 weeks), Emergency Medicine (4 weeks), Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation (2 weeks), ICU (4 weeks), many choices for electives (16 weeks)
Several opportunities for international clerkships
curriculum supplemented by several unique programs, such as Patient, Physician, & Society (consists of 4 modules
all meant to further introduce students to medical professional skills, and perspectives
includes modules like Culture Dynamics in Medicine, Ethics and Human Values, etc
, early patient interaction, Medical Decision Making, Curriculum is very technologically advanced
several aids to student learning
including the Weinberg Informatics Training Center. Grading System: 2 interval grading scale (Pass/Fail or equiv) for basic sciences, 3 interval grading scale for Clerkships (Honors/Pass/Fail or equivalent)
they are considering revamping the scale for clerkships. Score: 12.75
#Affiliated Hospitals/Facilities: 7 (which includes a childrens hospital that contains one of only 5 free-standing pediatric research centers in the country), plus several specialized rehabilitation centers and facilities Score: 7.5
Selection Factors: Private, rolling, no state preference, Avg. Overall GPA: 3.72, Avg. Science GPA: 3.68, Overall Median GPA: 3.8, Science Median GPA: 3.78, Avg. MCAT: 32.8 (V: 10.7, P: 11.6, B: 11.5), Median MCAT: 35Q (Ranges: V: 6 15, P: 8 15, B: 9 15, writing: L T), 6897 applications for 782 interview slots, non-trad. students make up 15% (oldest person is 30 and the youngest is 19) of class Score: 4.75
Diversity: 14% URM, 54% Minority Score: 13.25
Dual Degree Options: MD/MBA, MD/MPH, MD/PhD Score: 5.75
Student Support: Several student run organizations, student counseling, established Office of Minority and Cultural Affairs (OMCA
haha what an acronym), well known SNMA (well at least I know of them from their presence at the SNMA conference in Houston.)
they sponsor programs that are meant to increase cultural awareness, cultural competency
it also sponsors many initiatives, student aids meant to support the curriculum (primarily computer-based), friend of mine says the organization of the curriculum allows for more student to student support (at least for the first two years) b/c they are constantly working together
lots of class pride, student-faculty mentoring Score: 6.75
Housing: On campus and off-campus housing
off-campus going to be fairly expensive b/c the med school is in the nice part of town.
nasty cold winters, diverse patient population (but the primary patient population that Northwestern supports is insured
mostly exposed to medical practice that uses advanced technology
i.e things that you normally dont see in other hospitals
good place to be though
and my sister lives here too. Score: 5
Class Size: 171 (109 available through the regular admissions process)
so 22% of interviewees matriculated (much larger percentage of students are actually accepted) Score: 4.5
Residency Match List: 40% have entered primary care residency programs, 60% have entered the more specialized programs
Volunteer/Research Opportunities: several student run volunteer programs, the university has organized a group a Community Outreach group that focuses its efforts on improving the health and well-being of the underprivileged and homeless populations
it supports a free medical clinic, there are also other organizations that run clinics in these neighborhoods, very good volunteering opportunities
great opportunities to practice your Spanish
surprisingly Chi-town has a very large Hispanic population (way up there near Canada). Research: several medical facilities (including major biomed. research towers)
recently received a $3.5 million grant (of course it is not federal b/c of the greatest president of all
thats right Bush and his weird ways) for stem cell research
awesome, several research opportunities
including a summer biomedical research fellowship, Total NIH funding: $115,839,699 (rank: 37th), Total NIH funding (grants) for research: $105,898,542. Score: 11
Miscellaneous: Nice website, videos, have overall heard good things about this school, have always wanted to go to school in Chicago
hey this is my bias section
Im trying to play up the school
very successful alumni
just wish there were more larger lectures (but that is my beef with all schools that are mostly small group, learn on your own type schools) Score: 2.95 (hahahahahahahahaha)
Total Score: NO FULL SCORE ASSIGNED UNTIL ALL SCHOOLS COMPLETED
HELPS PREVENT ANY POSSIBLE INLETS FOR BIAS
24. University of Rochester____________
First Year Student Budget: $54,275 Score: 0.75
: have both need based university loans and need based scholarships, very few merit based scholarships. Also maintain an Alumni Fund (but most school have this). Like with the other NY schools
med students of U of R have access to the NY healthcare scholarship (up to $10,000
then you must work as a primary care physician in NY for every year that you receive the award. % of enrolled students receiving financial aid: 95%, average amount per scholarship/grant: $14,570, Average 2006 graduate indebtedness: $140,793 Score: 3
: U of R supposedly has a biopsychosocial tradition
Their curriculum is referred to as the Double Helix Curriculum: integration of basic science and clinical medicine. Emphasis is placed on active learning via PBL in small group sessions, seminars, conferences, laboratories, and computer-assisted learning. Several student aids to learning (no simulation labs though) are used to drive home the emphasis on the integration of basic science and clinical medicine. PBL complements whole-class overview. Clinical exposure (early patient contact) begins during the first week of the first year. Exposure is not minimized to simple shadowing. Rather, students begin real clinical work as part of a healthcare team. Students begin clinical exposure through their Introduction to Clinical Medicine and then move to their Ambulatory Care Clerkship (very unique in that you are exposed to the ambulatory components of family medicine, pediatrics, internal medicine, womens health, psychiatry, and ambulatory surgery) for their spring semester of the first year (which end by the end of the 2nd year). Clinical Clerkships: 3rd year: focus is on acute care experiences in Adult Medicine (internal and surgery), Womens and Childrens Health (Pediatrics and OB/GYN), Mind/Brain/Behavior (Neurology and Psychiatry). Since U or R highlights an integration of basic sci. and clinical medicine they ensure that you continue basic science concepts
during the third year there are 3 two-week basic science blocks. These blocks are used to reexamine basic science information and principles as they apply to the care of the patient (I am interested in seeing how well they perform on their boards
b/c they have a pretty sweet curriculum). 4th Year: variety of clinical electives. Requirements: Community Health Improvement Clerkship, The Process of Discovery course, Emergency Medicine, a subinternship and Successful Interning course
.Students use 4th year to complete international clerkships. Grading Scale: 3 intervals for basic science courses (Honors/Pass/Fail), Required clerkships: 5 intervals (ABCDF or equivalent), Elective Clinical Clerkships: 2 intervals (Pass/Fail or equiv). Required community service requirement (niiiiiiiiiiice)
completed through the Community Health Involvement Clerkship. Research/Thesis is optional
but if do complete a thesis then you graduate with Distinction in Research honors.
Score: 12 (I like this system
but there is no mention of any clinical skills center)
#Affiliated Hospitals: 5 with several new supporting facilities Score: 6.25 (they have some really nice new facilities)
Selection Factors: Private, Rolling, no known state preference, Avg. GPA: no mentioned, Overall Median GPA: 3.74, Science Median GPA: 3.69, Avg. MCAT: not mentioned, Median MCAT: 33Q (Ranges: V: 5 15, P: 5 15, B: 7 14, writing: M T), 4192 applications for 679 interview slots, Average Age: 24 (Age Range: 21 38) Score: 5.75
Diversity: 10% URM, 36% minority Score: 7
Dual Degree Options: MD/MPH, MD/MBA, MD/PhD, MD/MS (several options) for MS degrees Score: 7+++++++++++++
Student Support: Students have access to 3 health science libraries (of course none are as large as Harvards one biomedical library); Student Advising uses what they call the Advisory Dean System to pair students with one of the four advisory deans for the entire four years
they serve as career advisors as well. There is a center for Advocacy, Community Health, Education and Diversity (CACHED)
.hahaha it figures that this school does not have an established minority affairs office (by itself
Rochester is not very diverse and the school tends to shy away from saying that they actively recruit URMs
Anyway, CACHED supports programs to broaden the scope of medical education beyond the classroom
.strives to cross-culturally competent physicians. One specific program sponsored by CACHED is the Summer Research Fellowship (SURF) Program. Several student aids to learning. But no SNMA Score: 6
Housing: on campus housing assigned by lottery (booooooooo)
an adequate amount of housing is available off campus, no off campus affiliated housing Score: 5
Location: Rochester, NY
not as a diverse patient population but there is still a fair amount
well what do you expect
from the pictures it looks nice and safe (of course I am sure there are other parts that are not so safe) Score: 4
Class Size: 100
so approximately 15% of interviewees matriculate
so a larger percentage of interviewees are accepted.
Residency Match List: 44% of past graduates have entered primary care residency programs, 56% have entered the specialized residency programs
Volunteer/Research Opportunities: The one thing I will say is that this school has taken the initiative to develop community outreach programs/initiatives: The HealthACTION consortium. U or R also plays a major role in the African American Health Status Task Force and the Hispanic Health Coalition; U or R maintains a partnership with JOSANA. In addition to the many of the community partnerships and coalitions mentioned, U or R departments have implemented more than 75 community service programs and interventions annually (niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice)
All of this is evident in their Working Toward a Healthier Community video
.There are several other things that should be mentioned b/c the represent the depth to which U of R has gone to help rectify the many issues that exist within specific areas of society
quick e.g. (last one that I will mention here
but there are many more): the placement of telehealth units at seven inner city child care centers (niiiiice
this school is doing more in a smaller city than some larger schools are doing in larger cities). Research: Students have the option of pursuing honors recognition in research by participating in a five year curriculum known as the Academic Research Track (implemented in 2005), there are several research fellowships available for students (both summer and during the school year)
many students now take an extra year to pursue a scholarly project (or to pursue a dual degree)
there is also the Summer Research Fellowship (SURF) Program (mentioned earlier). A fair number of research facilities exist
U of R (back in 1996) implemented a ten year program designed to further build up their facilities and attract more federally and privately funded awards
.the newest additions to research facilities has increased research space to more than 420,000 square feet. Total NIH funding: $140,609,015 (rank: 30th), Total NIH supported research funding: $128,381,822. Score: 11
Miscellaneous: The have a couple of cool videos, nice website
I am still upset about the 10% URM (since average is 12%)
but that is so much better than 4%. I am very impressed with U of Rs commitment to community service/outreach
the school even won an award for that in 2004 Score: 3
Total Score: NO FULL SCORE ASSIGNED UNTIL ALL SCHOOLS COMPLETED
HELPS PREVENT ANY POSSIBLE INLETS FOR BIAS
northwestern memorial hospital has quite a bit of patient diversity. also keep in mind we rotate through the va and evanston and children;s memorial. i had a post a while back on what each of these rotations brought to people's educations. search for it. northwestern garners a lot of respect on the residency interview trail.
the curriculums between both schools are probably fairly similar. in retrospect, medical schools seem to try to sell on how their curriculum is somehow better. however, in the end(after discussing with many colleagues from other medical schools), you will learn the same anatomy, the same pharmacology, the same pathophysiology. and these days everyone seems to have some form of PBL. early clinical exposure will not make a difference in the end in my opinion. the bulk of your clinical learning is still done as a 3rd year. with that said, northwestern eases you into patient contact. 1st year you are with mock patients(paid actors and actresses) weekly and as soon as second year starts you are on the hospital floors seeing patients once a week every week.
i think northwestern is a better choice than rochester. but thats just me, and obviously i am biased. chicago is a great city that i decided to stay another 4 years.
My thoughts on Rochester....excellent clinical training, great faculty and a cheap cost of living. Does it really matter if it's not the most exciting city? You'll only be there for 4 years.
If you're gut feeling says Rochester, go with it. Northwestern's a great school, but maybe it's just not the right fit for you.
I think Northwestern has a better match list which is actually a good reason as any to go to a school. Chicago is obviously the better city, but you make friends where ever you go and you find out how to have fun. That being said while I didn't go to a school in a huge city, it was close to a huge city and we went there a lot. If it were me, I'd pick Feinberg.
Riceman you mind post similar info for vanderbilt, emory, and case western. Thanks.