Not doing very well in my SMP, help?

[deleted436726]

I graduated from college with a 3.2 cGPA/3.0 sGPA, 32 MCAT, applied to med schools, didn't get in. Ended up doing an SMP, which I'm close to finishing. Unfortunately my SMP GPA hasn't been great either - 3.34 fall semester and realistically speaking I'll end up with about the same numbers for the spring

How bad is this? Is this a death sentence?

I'm feeling a bit trapped right now - if I don't get into the one med school I'm currently waitlisted at I'll have to start applying all over again as well as find a job for next year. My advisor has told me that MD schools are by no means hopeless but has also pushed me toward applying toward DO schools as well.

Oh, and I'm planning to retake the MCAT one more time this summer/fall before it switches over to the new format...

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[Boolean]

Apply low tier private and new and upcoming MD.
MD is going to be a bit of a stretch, but perhaps you may be able to get in DO or MD if you apply very well.

Any reason why your SMP GPA is as low as it is?

 

[deleted436726]

I actually applied to about 20 lower-tier and new MD schools the previous cycle - didn't have much luck except for the one interview which turned into a waitlist.

I don't really have an excuse for why my SMP GPA is low...I've been working my ass off yet I still find classes like immuno, biochem, and anatomy difficult.

 

[Boolean]

I actually applied to about 20 lower-tier and new MD schools the previous cycle - didn't have much luck except for the one interview which turned into a waitlist.

I don't really have an excuse for why my SMP GPA is low...I've been working my ass off yet I still find classes like immuno, biochem, and anatomy difficult.

The issue here is that the coursework is designed to mimic a medical school setting. If you're having issues with immuno/biochem/anatomy now, who is to say this will be any different once you reach medical school? I think you should seriously consider DO at this point, especially if you're having a 1/20 response.

 

[La Presse]

How are your ECs. What is your MCAT score? How much time do you have before you complete the SMP?

 

[sobored]

Your mistake was doing an SMP to begin with. Your grades weren't terrible. You should have stayed in school and done a year of heavy upper division science courses, smoke them then reapply. But enough of the hindsight.

Honestly I don't think your GPA is that bad. You are at a B+ right now, and I think that shows that you are capable of handling a medical school curriculum. If at all possible, try your hardest to end strongly - maybe you can get it up to 3.5, then you'll be in a much better position. Also, in the mean time you should work on your extracurriculars to make them stand out. Also, if you insist on retaking the MCAT, that could also be your saving grace if you improve by a few points. I still think you have a decent chance at MD. Just don't keep reapplying with the same app...make sure when you reapply your application has some significant improvements. Throw in some DO schools if you're not opposed to going that route.

 

[deleted436726]

How are your ECs. What is your MCAT score? How much time do you have before you complete the SMP?

ECs should be fine. A nice mix of several hundred hours' worth of both clinical and non-clinical volunteering, 2-3 yrs. of research experience, and some entrepreneurial activities in college as well. The program is on a standard semester system so I have about a month before finals and graduation.

Your mistake was doing an SMP to begin with. Your grades weren't terrible. You should have stayed in school and done a year of heavy upper division science courses, smoke them then reapply. But enough of the hindsight.

Honestly I don't think your GPA is that bad. You are at a B+ right now, and I think that shows that you are capable of handling a medical school curriculum. If at all possible, try your hardest to end strongly - maybe you can get it up to 3.5, then you'll be in a much better position. Also, in the mean time you should work on your extracurriculars to make them stand out. Also, if you insist on retaking the MCAT, that could also be your saving grace if you improve by a few points. I still think you have a decent chance at MD. Just don't keep reapplying with the same app...make sure when you reapply your application has some significant improvements. Throw in some DO schools if you're not opposed to going that route.

Yeah, tell me about it I appreciate your honesty, though. 3.5 is possible, although it will be difficult. I am more or less set for a B+ in one class and I am hovering at the B+ mark for the other three classes. I'm definitely gunning for MCAT improvements this time around - got any suggestions on what practice tests to use if you've already exhausted all the official AAMC tests?

 

[tigga2013]

Why didn't you apply to DO schools this cycle? With your numbers & experience you could very well have been accepted at one if not many osteopathic schools already. I think its time for you to face the 'Do I want to be a DO vs. Do I ever want to attend medical school and be a doctor' question. Best of luck!

 

[hxkenshin]

1

 

[Goro]

This is not a good sign. The SMP is your last best chance of excelling and showing you can handle medical school. It appears you have reached your ceiling in terms of learning capacity. Medical school will be much harder than the SMP.

I suggest you try one more app cycle and see how it goes. But make other career plans, just in case.

I graduated from college with a 3.2 cGPA/3.0 sGPA, 32 MCAT, applied to med schools, didn't get in. Ended up doing an SMP, which I'm close to finishing. Unfortunately my SMP GPA hasn't been great either - 3.34 fall semester and realistically speaking I'll end up with about the same numbers for the spring

How bad is this? Is this a death sentence?

I'm feeling a bit trapped right now - if I don't get into the one med school I'm currently waitlisted at I'll have to start applying all over again as well as find a job for next year. My advisor has told me that MD schools are by no means hopeless but has also pushed me toward applying toward DO schools as well.

Oh, and I'm planning to retake the MCAT one more time this summer/fall before it switches over to the new format...

 

[type12]

Do another SMP?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

This is not a good sign. The SMP is your last best chance of excelling and showing you can handle medical school. It appears you have reached your ceiling in terms of learning capacity. Medical will be much harder than the SMP.

I suggest you try one more app cycle and see how it goes. But make other career plans, just in cased.

I agree. I wouldn't take an SMP student with less than 3.5 because they knew the risks and still didn't perform well enough.

DO is attainable, but there is no sure ticket with that record.

 

[theseeker4]

I graduated from college with a 3.2 cGPA/3.0 sGPA, 32 MCAT, applied to med schools, didn't get in. Ended up doing an SMP, which I'm close to finishing. Unfortunately my SMP GPA hasn't been great either - 3.34 fall semester and realistically speaking I'll end up with about the same numbers for the spring

How bad is this? Is this a death sentence?

I'm feeling a bit trapped right now - if I don't get into the one med school I'm currently waitlisted at I'll have to start applying all over again as well as find a job for next year. My advisor has told me that MD schools are by no means hopeless but has also pushed me toward applying toward DO schools as well.

Oh, and I'm planning to retake the MCAT one more time this summer/fall before it switches over to the new format...

Why on earth would you NOT be applying to DO schools? How badly do you want to be a doctor, and how many years and thousands of dollars are you going to spend pursing a different two letters at the end of your name, when you could be a medical student already?

 

[type12]

Why on earth would you NOT be applying to DO schools? How badly do you want to be a doctor, and how many years and thousands of dollars are you going to spend pursing a different two letters at the end of your name, when you could be a medical student already?

Not sure of OP's situation, but there are doors that are closed to you if you go to DO. Not many, mind you, but those may be one of the avenues OP wishes to pursue?

The MD and DO "separate but equal" ideology doesn't translate perfectly into reality. Though we knew that from the fifties.

 

[deleted480308]

Not sure of OP's situation, but there are doors that are closed to you if you go to DO. Not many, mind you, but those may be one of the avenues OP wishes to pursue?

The MD and DO "separate but equal" ideology doesn't translate perfectly into reality. Though we knew that from the fifties.

The MD/DO thing isn't the OP's problem....their problem is they can't get a 3.5 at an SMP program. This means they aren't likely to be top of their class anyway (don't feel bad OP, my undergrad stats are very similar to yours)...just add the necessary idea of applying DO and go be a doctor. Hopefully your SMP won't harm you

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Not sure of OP's situation, but there are doors that are closed to you if you go to DO. Not many, mind you, but those may be one of the avenues OP wishes to pursue?

The MD and DO "separate but equal" ideology doesn't translate perfectly into reality. Though we knew that from the fifties.

What doors are specifically closed? Might be harder or impossible for some residencies and specialties within ACGME, but AOA is very attainable for a top student. If you can't be a to DO student, you can't be a top M.D. student, so you'll end up without the specialty or residency anyway.

 

[MDforMee]

OP shouldn't post here, but instead look at the big picture. OP already knows the answer to the question they're posting.

 

[Boolean]

What doors are specifically closed? Might be harder or impossible for some residencies and specialties within ACGME, but AOA is very attainable for a top student. If you can't be a to DO student, you can't be a top M.D. student, so you'll end up without the specialty or residency anyway.

You can read the NRMP's program director survey to get an idea. It tells you what percentage of PD's surveyed even interview DO's at their program.

Here's the rundown for 2012:

PM&R 97%
Psychiatry 94%
Family Medicine 93%
Pathology 91%
Pediatrics 87%
Anesthesiology 83%
Neurology 81%
Internal Medicine 79%
OB/GYN 77%
Radiology 69%
Emergency Medicine 68%
Radiation Oncology 63%
General Surgery 53%
Plastic Surgery 50%
Neurosurgery 38%
Dermatology 31%
Orthopedic Surgery 30%
ENT 28%

 

[type12]

What doors are specifically closed? Might be harder or impossible for some residencies and specialties within ACGME, but AOA is very attainable for a top student. If you can't be a to DO student, you can't be a top M.D. student, so you'll end up without the specialty or residency anyway.

To add to Boolean, there are a few personal experiences that shocked me. I'm really sad to see these done to people who are doctors through and through:

There are many countries that do not recognize DO, and you cannot practice there, even ironically through doctors without borders. India is the one that springs to mind, where they say DO is recognized, but goodluck trying to practice or volunteer. I've had three friends who had no luck trying to go back to their home country as doctors, so I'm doubtful it's a fluke (but hey, it could be).

Another area is funding and research: I worked in pharma for 2+ years. One of the Big 8 pharma companies worked with us to create a really promising drug (it's out now!), but we needed to provide funding for research into it. We gave them our list of the best people for the job (i.e., pay them to do the research), the most recognized people in the field. I don't remember the number, but somewhere in the teens, there was a DO. The pharma guy tossed our list at us and told us, "No no no, no fake doctors. MDs okay, PhDs okay, but none of this DO nonsense." (filtered) We had to remove anyone with a DO, including the one DO/PhD on the list.

I'm not saying it's right, but it is what it is. Not sure if it matters, but it wasn't a US company.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Your mistake was doing an SMP to begin with. Your grades weren't terrible. You should have stayed in school and done a year of heavy upper division science courses, smoke them then reapply. But enough of the hindsight .

No the smp was the right choice. With a year of course work the op's cumulative gpa would still only be 3.35. Not exactly changing his position.

What doors are specifically closed? Might be harder or impossible for some residencies and specialties within ACGME, but AOA is very attainable for a top student. If you can't be a to DO student, you can't be a top M.D. student, so you'll end up without the specialty or residency anyway.

If you can get into md take it. Getting a residency is much easier. However op you're now two cycles in. If you don't get in this time apply md and do

 

[LostinLift]

No the smp was the right choice. With a year of course work the op's cumulative gpa would still only be 3.35.

The SMP was the wrong choice, as the "graduate level coursework" will not factor into his/her overall GPA. They could have taken 12-15 credits per semester and 9 or so in the summer, not even counting the possibility of doing more than 1 year of post-bacc. It probably would have been cheaper as well, not to mention less stressful. OP should have done an informal or formal post-bacc to raise his/her GPA while gaining more ECs, seeing as his/her MCAT was solid enough.


In any case, apply DO as well, apply broadly, raise MCAT (I found Kaplan practice tests weren't awful, I did about 8 of them and all the AAMCs, more practice questions will be useful though - look for Princeton, EK, and TBR for questions). Find something useful to do in your gap year like scribing in case you need to reapply.

 

[deleted436726]

Why on earth would you NOT be applying to DO schools? How badly do you want to be a doctor, and how many years and thousands of dollars are you going to spend pursing a different two letters at the end of your name, when you could be a medical student already?

I'm sorry if I came across as opposed to DO at all - I've been doing a lot of research on the topic lately and in all likelihood I'll be applying to both allo and osteo schools next cycle if I don't get in.

To add to Boolean, there are a few personal experiences that shocked me. I'm really sad to see these done to people who are doctors through and through:

There are many countries that do not recognize DO, and you cannot practice there, even ironically through doctors without borders. India is the one that springs to mind, where they say DO is recognized, but goodluck trying to practice or volunteer. I've had three friends who had no luck trying to go back to their home country as doctors, so I'm doubtful it's a fluke (but hey, it could be).

Another area is funding and research: I worked in pharma for 2+ years. One of the Big 8 pharma companies worked with us to create a really promising drug (it's out now!), but we needed to provide funding for research into it. We gave them our list of the best people for the job (i.e., pay them to do the research), the most recognized people in the field. I don't remember the number, but somewhere in the teens, there was a DO. The pharma guy tossed our list at us and told us, "No no no, no fake doctors. MDs okay, PhDs okay, but none of this DO nonsense." (filtered) We had to remove anyone with a DO, including the one DO/PhD on the list.

I'm not saying it's right, but it is what it is. Not sure if it matters, but it wasn't a US company.

Yeah, it's true DOs don't have the same practice privileges internationally, but I really can't see that affecting me since I'm not planning to pack up and start practicing overseas Pharma research is something I have no plans to get involved in. My undergrad major was in computer science, and I have a pretty strong interest in developing or helping to develop medical software - I don't think doing MD vs DO will really matter in that case.

 

[sobored]

No the smp was the right choice. With a year of course work the op's cumulative gpa would still only be 3.35. Not exactly changing his position.


If you can get into md take it. Getting a residency is much easier. However op you're now two cycles in. If you don't get in this time apply md and do

Sorry but you're wrong. The SMP was the wrong choice. A 3.35 isn't always seen as a 3.35 - you need context. If OP took a heavy course load with lots of upper division science courses and did really well, that shows on AMCAS and people notice. I've been through this and I'm on my school's committee and have talked to many people about this. If the OP had a sub 3.0 and really couldn't take more classes for whatever reason, then fine the SMP was reasonable. Not in his/her case. Also, totally anecdotal, but I was at a sub 3.0, went back and took heavy science course loads to bring it up to a 3.0, 32 mcat, got into a few MDs. Got lots of comments about my later coursework at every interview.

 

[sobored]

ECs should be fine. A nice mix of several hundred hours' worth of both clinical and non-clinical volunteering, 2-3 yrs. of research experience, and some entrepreneurial activities in college as well. The program is on a standard semester system so I have about a month before finals and graduation.



Yeah, tell me about it I appreciate your honesty, though. 3.5 is possible, although it will be difficult. I am more or less set for a B+ in one class and I am hovering at the B+ mark for the other three classes. I'm definitely gunning for MCAT improvements this time around - got any suggestions on what practice tests to use if you've already exhausted all the official AAMC tests?

Well I think you should only retake the MCAT if you're really sure you are going to improve. If there's any chance you could score lower I would not risk your 32 because it's a good score. Having said that, the AAMC practice tests are your best preparation tools in my opinion, so if I were you I would go back and do all those tests again and really go over them very well. Scrutinize every right and wrong answer to get a good feel of how they are writing the questions. Obviously pinpoint any weaknesses and focus on those regarding subjects. You can do this - I bet you get into some MD schools. Try your best to get some A's in your remaining SMP classes.

 

[Instatewaiter]

The SMP was the wrong choice, as the "graduate level coursework" will not factor into his/her overall GPA. They could have taken 12-15 credits per semester and 9 or so in the summer, not even counting the possibility of doing more than 1 year of post-bacc.

The point is that the SMP will not factor into his overall GPA. It is a fresh start. Taking upper level courses at 15 credits per semester, 2 semesters would have brought him up to a whopping 3.35 GPA. Still not competitive.

2 years of courses... still less than a 3.5. Again, there are diminishing returns after you have finished 4 years of college. This is why with a solid MCAT and a <3.3 GPA, an SMP is a very reasonable option.

Sorry but you're wrong. The SMP was the wrong choice. A 3.35 isn't always seen as a 3.35 - you need context. If OP took a heavy course load with lots of upper division science courses and did really well, that shows on AMCAS and people notice. I've been through this and I'm on my school's committee and have talked to many people about this. If the OP had a sub 3.0 and really couldn't take more classes for whatever reason, then fine the SMP was reasonable. Not in his/her case. Also, totally anecdotal, but I was at a sub 3.0, went back and took heavy science course loads to bring it up to a 3.0, 32 mcat, got into a few MDs. Got lots of comments about my later coursework at every interview.

Good for you that you are on your school's committee. Yeah I was on my schools committee too. I was also one of the original mentors on the Post-bac forum here, 6 years ago. I know what I'm talking about.

In your case, the path you took would be untenable for most people. Looking back at your posts, you started with a 2.4 after college and ended with a 3.0 after your postbac. Assuming you came out with 120 credits after college, your post-bac required 72 credits of course work at a 4.0 just to get there. Few people could pull off 72 credits of 4.0 in 2 years (that's 18 credits a semester), especially those who have proved they weren't the most diligent students the first time around.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

You can read the NRMP's program director survey to get an idea. It tells you what percentage of PD's surveyed even interview DO's at their program.

Thank you. I've actually gone through that list extensively. I agree that DO has certain disadvantages in obtaining ACGME residency, which I stated in the original comment. The point I was trying to drive home is that if you want a certain specialty, it is attainable thanks to the AOA side.

 

[Dires]

The only doors OP should be worried about keeping open are those to any US med school. He can worry about residency later. ****.

 

[sobored]

The point is that the SMP will not factor into his overall GPA. It is a fresh start. Taking upper level courses at 15 credits per semester, 2 semesters would have brought him up to a whopping 3.35 GPA. Still not competitive.

2 years of courses... still less than a 3.5. Again, there are diminishing returns after you have finished 4 years of college. This is why with a solid MCAT and a <3.3 GPA, an SMP is a very reasonable option.



Good for you that you are on your school's committee. Yeah I was on my schools committee too. I was also one of the original mentors on the Post-bac forum here, 6 years ago. I know what I'm talking about.

In your case, the path you took would be untenable for most people. Looking back at your posts, you started with a 2.4 after college and ended with a 3.0 after your postbac. Assuming you came out with 120 credits after college, your post-bac required 72 credits of course work at a 4.0 just to get there. Few people could pull off 72 credits of 4.0 in 2 years (that's 18 credits a semester), especially those who have proved they weren't the most diligent students the first time around.

Look, I'm not going to argue with you about this. You have your experiences and I have mine. I have specifically asked many people on my school's committee about this very issue (and I'm not making that up because we are having a disagreement, I have really asked because this situation pertained to me at the time so I am interested in it), and they have all agreed with what I've already said in this thread. So let's just agree to disagree.

But, what I am especially curious about is your comment that what I did would be "untenable for most people." If you think that these people could not go back and work hard to get the best grades possible in undergrad in a desperate situation, why on earth would you recommend for them to enroll in an SMP, where undoubtedly not only is the competition much tougher to get good grades, but the material is harder and more voluminous? How do you reconcile your views on these two strategies?

 

[WaterCLurker]

To add to Boolean, there are a few personal experiences that shocked me. I'm really sad to see these done to people who are doctors through and through:

There are many countries that do not recognize DO, and you cannot practice there, even ironically through doctors without borders. India is the one that springs to mind, where they say DO is recognized, but goodluck trying to practice or volunteer. I've had three friends who had no luck trying to go back to their home country as doctors, so I'm doubtful it's a fluke (but hey, it could be).

Another area is funding and research: I worked in pharma for 2+ years. One of the Big 8 pharma companies worked with us to create a really promising drug (it's out now!), but we needed to provide funding for research into it. We gave them our list of the best people for the job (i.e., pay them to do the research), the most recognized people in the field. I don't remember the number, but somewhere in the teens, there was a DO. The pharma guy tossed our list at us and told us, "No no no, no fake doctors. MDs okay, PhDs okay, but none of this DO nonsense." (filtered) We had to remove anyone with a DO, including the one DO/PhD on the list.

I'm not saying it's right, but it is what it is. Not sure if it matters, but it wasn't a US company.

I heard this somewhere so take it with a grain of salt but apparently, outside of the US (in Europe, specifically), DOs and MDs don't practice the same thing. I think DOs in Europe are doctors of actual osteopathic medicine, as opposed to US DOs that practice regular medicine (whatever regular medicine may actually entail).

 

[petyr_baelish]

I heard this somewhere so take it with a grain of salt but apparently, outside of the US (in Europe, specifically), DOs and MDs don't practice the same thing. I think DOs in Europe are doctors of actual osteopathic medicine, as opposed to US DOs that practice regular medicine (whatever regular medicine may actually entail).

DOs in Europe are chiropractors.

 

[Mr Roboto]

Did you apply at too many reach schools? Did you apply late? Were your PS/EC/clinical exposure/LORs not as strong as they could be?

I wouldn't retake the MCAT with a 32. That's a good score and isn't the problem with your application.

I agree that the SMP was probably a waste of your time, especially since you didn't crush it.

You'll totally get into a DO school next cycle if you apply.

I graduated from college with a 3.2 cGPA/3.0 sGPA, 32 MCAT, applied to med schools, didn't get in. Ended up doing an SMP, which I'm close to finishing. Unfortunately my SMP GPA hasn't been great either - 3.34 fall semester and realistically speaking I'll end up with about the same numbers for the spring

How bad is this? Is this a death sentence?

I'm feeling a bit trapped right now - if I don't get into the one med school I'm currently waitlisted at I'll have to start applying all over again as well as find a job for next year. My advisor has told me that MD schools are by no means hopeless but has also pushed me toward applying toward DO schools as well.

Oh, and I'm planning to retake the MCAT one more time this summer/fall before it switches over to the new format...