Not getting interviews: take a year off?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

GonefromTX

Resident
7+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
166
Reaction score
103
Hey everyone, so I'm an MS4 who chose to pursue a competitive specialty (ortho) and I'm not getting too many interviews to get a satisfactory chance of matching. My stats are 250/249 step 1/2, 5 published research, 2H/2HP/3P for clinicals with only 6 interviews so far.

I'm also beginning to question my specialty choice at this point, and have been thinking a lot about general surgery as well. I'd happily do general surgery and subspecialize in vascular rather than risking the chance of going unmatched and having to scramble into a gen sure prelim spot.

Should I withdraw my ERAS application and try to find a paid gen sure research position? Would it hurt my application next year if I did that, and graduate in 5 years instead of 4?

Members don't see this ad.
 
Not sure how the process works but good luck to you.Hopefully people give you real advice.
But man this makes me scared applying to neurosurgery. I have a slightly higher step but will have less research and maybe slightly better clinical grades but will be looking to apply to a backup
 
Hey everyone, so I'm an MS4 who chose to pursue a competitive specialty (ortho) and I'm not getting too many interviews to get a satisfactory chance of matching. My stats are 250/249 step 1/2, 5 published research, 2H/2HP/3P for clinicals with only 6 interviews so far.

I'm also beginning to question my specialty choice at this point, and have been thinking a lot about general surgery as well. I'd happily do general surgery and subspecialize in vascular rather than risking the chance of going unmatched and having to scramble into a gen sure prelim spot.

Should I withdraw my ERAS application and try to find a paid gen sure research position? Would it hurt my application next year if I did that, and graduate in 5 years instead of 4?

Do you think you interview well?
Did you do an away? Did you click with the people you worked with?

One of my classmates only had 6 derm interviews but she matched. Six isn’t a ton of interviews and you run a real risk of not matching. Only you can decide how much you like ortho and what you’re willing to risk. I imagine if you ended up in a surgery prelim with those step scores you’d find a categorical surgery spot but nothing is guaranteed obviously.

If you stay in the match this cycle, you should add some strong prelims to your application and see if you can even go interview for a prelim. Better off matching a prelim that is known to give you good opportunities.

Best of luck to you
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Not sure how the process works but good luck to you.Hopefully people give you real advice.
But man this makes me scared applying to neurosurgery. I have a slightly higher step but will have less research and maybe slightly better clinical grades but will be looking to apply to a backup

Have you considered a back up specialty?
 
Do you think you interview well?
Did you do an away? Did you click with the people you worked with?

One of my classmates only had 6 derm interviews but she matched. Six isn’t a ton of interviews and you run a real risk of not matching. Only you can decide how much you like ortho and what you’re willing to risk. I imagine if you ended up in a surgery prelim with those step scores you’d find a categorical surgery spot but nothing is guaranteed obviously.

If you stay in the match this cycle, you should add some strong prelims to your application and see if you can even go interview for a prelim. Better off matching a prelim that is known to give you good opportunities.

Best of luck to you

I would love to add some strong prelims in gen surg but all my LoRs are from ortho. Do you think I can still apply to gen surg with 4 ortho LoRs? Just wondering if it would hurt my application if I pulled out now and did an extra research year without graduating.

Thanks!
 
I would love to add some strong prelims in gen surg but all my LoRs are from ortho. Do you think I can still apply to gen surg with 4 ortho LoRs? Just wondering if it would hurt my application if I pulled out now and did an extra research year without graduating.

Thanks!
Do you have any red flags? 250 w/ 5 pubs seems pretty strong
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Do you have any red flags? 250 w/ 5 pubs seems pretty strong

Not that I’m aware of, except the 3 passes. There’s just 16 people doing ortho from my class competing for all the regional invites. I applied to 153 programs too. Seriously worried right now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Not that I’m aware of, except the 3 passes. There’s just 16 people doing ortho from my class competing for all the regional invites. I applied to 153 programs too. Seriously worried right now.
Damn, dude. Sorry to hear that. This is making me nervous for next year. I really hope it works out for you. How many interview invites do you have, currently?
 
IMG_5574.JPG


According to CTO 2018, it looks like you have a 60% chance of matching right now, assuming you’re a USMD, which isn’t to bad (still anxiety provoking I’m sure) and your scores are in line. I would try to send letters of interest to those programs you interviewed at.

A prelim spot would probably be better than taking a year off for research (though others should chime in on this bc idk honestly).

6/153 jeez, crazy times for orthos.

If you are considering GS and you don’t match, you might be able to scramble into a GS spot too.

Hope it all works out for you dude/dudette


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Damn, dude. Sorry to hear that. This is making me nervous for next year. I really hope it works out for you. How many interview invites do you have, currently?
View attachment 242395

According to CTO 2018, it looks like you have a 60% chance of matching right now, assuming you’re a USMD, which isn’t to bad (still anxiety provoking I’m sure) and your scores are in line. I would try to send letters of interest to those programs you interviewed at.

A prelim spot would probably be better than taking a year off for research (though others should chime in on this bc idk honestly).

6/153 jeez, crazy times for orthos.

If you are considering GS and you don’t match, you might be able to scramble into a GS spot too.

Hope it all works out for you dude/dudette


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
I heard surgery prelims only have about 30% chance of matching into a categorical spot. Also, do I need LoRs other than ortho letters to scramble into GS?
 
I heard surgery prelims only have about 30% chance of matching into a categorical spot. Also, do I need LoRs other than ortho letters to scramble into GS?

No to the bolded.

I would recommend you wait out match day, while potentially setting up some research position stuff contingent on you not matching so that you have a back-up that you feel is acceptable.

That being said, with your scores, doing a surg prelim and working hard during that year will put you in a better position to get into a gen surg categorical year than doing a gen surg research year, as you'll be able to get gen surg letters, have an ABSITE score, etc. to let you either re-apply as a PGY-1, or even potentially slide into an open PGY-2 spot in gen surg.

I've even seen people do surgical prelims then re-apply and get into ortho somewhere as a PGY-1. That's rarer but not impossible.
 
Imagine you had 16 interview invitations so far instead of 6. How would you feel then? I'm asking because it makes some sense to try to separate your "wonder if I should go general surgery?" thoughts from your fear of not matching. A certain amount of second guessing is completely normal, but you don't want to let a lack of confidence sabotage your career.

Right now there are a bunch of possibilities out there, not all of which are mutually exclusive. For example, you mention a research year as a possibility to improve your chances for general surgery. But for gen surg, you wouldn't normally need a research year; but for an improved shot at Ortho, it might make a lot of sense.

Would you be able to delay your graduation in the event you don't match or SOAP and decide on a research year at that point? So investigate the options and plan for the possibility now, but don't actually 'pull the trigger' and withdraw?

And there's SOAP of course. You've got a very strong application in general, and there are usually some GS spots open that go to applicants exactly like you, folks who aimed for the super-competitive surgical sub-specialties and just didn't get lucky. Or surgical prelims. Again, for a strong candidate like you, that's not such a bad risk. Again, you could make that decision in the SOAP process if it came to that.
 
Talk to your dean that has the most knowledge of the match. It is their job to make sure their students match and I can't imagine they would have let you apply without severe reservation if they thought that you not matching would be a likely outcome. They might be able to shed some light on the issue or help point you in the right direction.

In addition, talk to your mentor of choice at your home ortho department. They might be able to tell you if there's a problem you don't know about (bad letter somewhere or something) or otherwise identify potential problem. Talk to your home PD too.

It is beyond time to start having people make calls for you and for you to personally reach out via email to other programs. Your dean, PD, and mentor can all help figure out places that a call or an email might help bump you to the top of the waitlist or otherwise get you an interview spot.

From what my ortho friends tell me, ortho sends out invites later and interviews later than other surgical subspecialties, and so there may be places that have yet to send out interviews or that still have spots open. You need to identify these programs and reach out to them immediately (either via your own email or via a home faculty member or both).
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Do you think I can still apply to gen surg with 4 ortho LoRs?
Based on what my ortho friends who dual-applied did (i.e. most of them), you need 3 gen surg letters for a decent categorical. If PDs see a GS applicant with 4 ortho letters, they'll assume you're dual applying.

Not sure what I'd do in your shoes. Research year probably. You probably shouldn't give up entirely on a career in ortho based on one year. But assuming you did 3 aways + home institution, a total number of 6 is rough.

Do you have any red flags
Iffy LORs?
 
Based on what my ortho friends who dual-applied did (i.e. most of them), you need 3 gen surg letters for a decent categorical. If PDs see a GS applicant with 4 ortho letters, they'll assume you're dual applying.

Not sure what I'd do in your shoes. Research year probably. You probably shouldn't give up entirely on a career in ortho based on one year. But assuming you did 3 aways + home institution, a total number of 6 is rough.


Iffy LORs?

I don't think so, my home PD told me I got a good letter from an attending I worked with a long time, and I felt pretty good about my other letters too.
 
I'm also beginning to question my specialty choice at this point, and have been thinking a lot about general surgery as well. I'd happily do general surgery and subspecialize in vascular rather than risking the chance of going unmatched and having to scramble into a gen sure prelim spot.

This sounds crazy. Would you really rather withdraw and give yourself a 0% chance at doing ortho just because the odds aren't 100% for matching? For that reason alone I would recommend against applying for ortho.
 
This sounds crazy. Would you really rather withdraw and give yourself a 0% chance at doing ortho just because the odds aren't 100% for matching? For that reason alone I would recommend against applying for ortho.
No need to be insulting. The question I’m asking is, will trying to match and then failing to match be more of a disadvantage when applying to gen surg next year, in contrast to withdrawing completely and not failing to match.

Basically I’m trying to find out, will gen surg PDs next year know if I applied and failed to match this cycle?
 
No need to be insulting. The question I’m asking is, will trying to match and then failing to match be more of a disadvantage when applying to gen surg next year, in contrast to withdrawing completely and not failing to match.

Basically I’m trying to find out, will gen surg PDs next year know if I applied and failed to match this cycle?
Does withdrawing from match lead to being labeled as a reapplicant?

How many away did you do ?
Did you do them in geographically distinct areas?
Did you get interviews from them?

In your shoes I would ride out the match and scramble into anything surgical that comes up in the match, even if there are categorical spots .
 
Basically I’m trying to find out, will gen surg PDs next year know if I applied and failed to match this cycle?

The answer to this question is no, mostly. If you proceed with the match and don't match to ortho, and then don't SOAP into anything, and then add a research year that extends your YOG to next year, that will look exactly the same as if you had withdrawn from the match and then did a research year. No one in GS will be able to tell you didn't match vs withdrew.

That said, someone who takes a research year as their last year, the usual story is: didn't match, added a research year. So although there's no way for anyone to know for sure, it's the most likely explanation. Still, you'd be seen as a current grad, and many programs won't care.

You could certainly spin it as "I was gung ho for ortho, then in the middle of the match had a change of heart. So now I'm focusing on GS".

But much depends on what you plan to do with any research year. If you do a bunch of Ortho research, you won't be fooling anyone. You'll (perhaps) increase your chances of getting an ortho spot, and likely make it more difficult to get a GS spot since it will be pretty clear what your plan is. If you do GS research, then you'll increase your chances of getting a GS spot but sink your chances of getting ortho.

No one has mentioned it yet, but getting vascular from GS isn't a walk in the park. I would only recommend doing GS if you think you could be happy with it as a career plan, if vascular doesn't work out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
If your letters are all ortho, gensurg will know they are your backup. You’ve already decided to put your eggs in one basket—-so finish it up and go for Ortho. 6 interviews isn’t bad. If you get 10 you’re likely to match. It may be the case that you will get a few more.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Friend last year had only 6 II for Ortho and matched his 4 choice at a program he rotated at with much worse stats than you, N : 1 but just to give you hope


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
If your letters are all ortho, gensurg will know they are your backup. You’ve already decided to put your eggs in one basket—-so finish it up and go for Ortho. 6 interviews isn’t bad. If you get 10 you’re likely to match. It may be the case that you will get a few more.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
The answer to this question is no, mostly. If you proceed with the match and don't match to ortho, and then don't SOAP into anything, and then add a research year that extends your YOG to next year, that will look exactly the same as if you had withdrawn from the match and then did a research year. No one in GS will be able to tell you didn't match vs withdrew.

That said, someone who takes a research year as their last year, the usual story is: didn't match, added a research year. So although there's no way for anyone to know for sure, it's the most likely explanation. Still, you'd be seen as a current grad, and many programs won't care.

You could certainly spin it as "I was gung ho for ortho, then in the middle of the match had a change of heart. So now I'm focusing on GS".

But much depends on what you plan to do with any research year. If you do a bunch of Ortho research, you won't be fooling anyone. You'll (perhaps) increase your chances of getting an ortho spot, and likely make it more difficult to get a GS spot since it will be pretty clear what your plan is. If you do GS research, then you'll increase your chances of getting a GS spot but sink your chances of getting ortho.

No one has mentioned it yet, but getting vascular from GS isn't a walk in the park. I would only recommend doing GS if you think you could be happy with it as a career plan, if vascular doesn't work out.

Thank you everyone for your reply. Hoping to get your input on what I'm thinking of doing:
I'll try to find a research opportunity contingent on failing to match this cycle. So if I failed to match, I'll do research from March 2019 to around July 2019. And hopefully I'd be able to do another 3 away rotations next year?

What do y'all think about the competitiveness of my application at that point, if I postponed graduation till 2020, but assuming I published some meaningful research during the research year? Would it be increased compared to this year or decreased?
 
Thank you everyone for your reply. Hoping to get your input on what I'm thinking of doing:
I'll try to find a research opportunity contingent on failing to match this cycle. So if I failed to match, I'll do research from March 2019 to around July 2019. And hopefully I'd be able to do another 3 away rotations next year?

What do y'all think about the competitiveness of my application at that point, if I postponed graduation till 2020, but assuming I published some meaningful research during the research year? Would it be increased compared to this year or decreased?
You have 5 publications...I am not sure that is the reason you aren't getting interviews. Pretty sure most students don't have 5 pubs.
 
You have 5 publications...I am not sure that is the reason you aren't getting interviews. Pretty sure most students don't have 5 pubs.
Right, it may not be due to research. So Im just wondering if I reapplied next year would my application lose competitiveness just by doing an additional research year.
 
Why take a 60% chance of matching into your specialty this year and force it to 0%? Withdrawing at this point can only hurt you, and as others have said regardless of whether you withdraw or wait programs will likely assume that you failed to match.

Were your 5 pubs solid additions to the field, or could they read more like fluff? How many aways did you do? Why didn't you apply to gen surg as a backup? Are you questioning ortho because of this match cycle or other reasons? Now's the time to ask hard questions, unfortunately.
 
Why take a 60% chance of matching into your specialty this year and force it to 0%? Withdrawing at this point can only hurt you, and as others have said regardless of whether you withdraw or wait programs will likely assume that you failed to match.

Were your 5 pubs solid additions to the field, or could they read more like fluff? How many aways did you do? Why didn't you apply to gen surg as a backup? Are you questioning ortho because of this match cycle or other reasons? Now's the time to ask hard questions, unfortunately.

To be fair I think it’s very difficult to apply for a backup and still be fully committed to applying for ortho.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Hey everyone, so I'm an MS4 who chose to pursue a competitive specialty (ortho) and I'm not getting too many interviews to get a satisfactory chance of matching. My stats are 250/249 step 1/2, 5 published research, 2H/2HP/3P for clinicals with only 6 interviews so far.

I'm also beginning to question my specialty choice at this point, and have been thinking a lot about general surgery as well. I'd happily do general surgery and subspecialize in vascular rather than risking the chance of going unmatched and having to scramble into a gen sure prelim spot.

Should I withdraw my ERAS application and try to find a paid gen sure research position? Would it hurt my application next year if I did that, and graduate in 5 years instead of 4?

Go Big Ortho or go home. Don't even think about this backup crap. You need to utilize your Ortho contacts and keep updating these programs of your interest. You're in a bar, filled with 100 dudes trying to score a date with 10 available chicks. Keep dialing it in and be persistent. Find your inner alpha and finish. Good luck. You're going to do great.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Go Big Ortho or go home. Don't even think about this backup crap. You need to utilize your Ortho contacts and keep updating these programs of your interest. You're in a bar, filled with 100 dudes trying to score a date with 10 available chicks. Keep dialing it in and be persistent. Find your inner alpha and finish. Good luck. You're going to do great.
Damn! Just flipped my desk over after reading this! Let’s go!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Top