Not mentioning ethnicity on applications - disadvantage?

NuttyEngDude

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    The "Hispanic or Latino" section includes Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico. This hides the real magnitude of the problem. For the past decade, notwithstanding all the good intentions, Mexican American numbers have not improved and perhaps are getting worse.
    I was able to find this, it looks like there was a huge dip around 9/11 (probably from the whole illegals are responsible for 9/11 xenophobic crap, pardon my language, that was sweeping the nation) but has gotten better:
    12238419966_720b9f3cba_z.jpg


    edit: i am not trying to imply that there are no mexican american problems in this regard, hope that did not come across
     
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    histidine

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      I would suggest that you count to ten and take a deep breath before posting.

      Quinn went a little overboard with the neo-nazi and bigot comment.

      But there is a remarkable similarity between MDforMee's comment on Asians and the institutional antisemitism of the early 1900s. Again, I don't think institutional racism is behind the discrepancies in Asian vs White vs URM statistics, but it is an interesting read nonetheless. http://jhmas.oxfordjournals.org/content/56/2/140.full.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808007/
       
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      NuttyEngDude

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        Quinn went a little overboard with the neo-nazi and bigot comment.

        But there is a remarkable similarity between MDforMee's comment on Asians and the institutional antisemitism of the early 1900s. Again, I don't think institutional racism is behind the discrepancies in Asian vs White vs URM statistics, but it is an interesting read nonetheless. http://jhmas.oxfordjournals.org/content/56/2/140.full.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808007/

        Yeah I dont think there is either (sorry guys, I still feel for your frustration though). Nonetheless, I hate the stereotypes and stuff that comes out on the issue regarding all the different races and ethnicities. There MAY be biases that people possess that are a net negative for asians and scapegoating but I am unable to find any data on it. BTW, your first link wants me to pay $$ :(
         
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        MDforMee

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          Not challenging you here, but how did you get these numbers? I'm trying to make sense of your numbers, is this counting DO as well or something?

          Here are the Middle Eastern demographics data of Californians:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Middle_Eastern_Americans


          I'm guessing the 80% figure is a hyperbole, even if all Chinese applicants of every year were 100% admitted that would only equate to about ~10,000 chinese students and using 2012 numbers for total asian matriculants, this would only amount to 50% of asians.

          Here are the projections I'm using for Chinese vs. total Asian enrollment:
          http://opa.berkeley.edu/statistics/enrollmentdata.html

          The enrollment data you see in UCB's website shows that
          Pacific Islander 11 9 8 0.2% 0.2% 0.2%
          Chinese 942 883 889 21.2% 21.2% 18.9%
          Filipino 108 107 110 2.4% 2.6% 2.3%
          Japanese 68 66 62 1.5% 1.6% 1.3%
          Korean 260 224 249 5.9% 5.4% 5.3%
          Other Asian 46 45 78 1.0% 1.1% 1.7%
          South Asian 326 337 349 7.3% 8.1% 7.4%
          Vietnamese 142 142 128 3.2% 3.4% 2.7%



          To be fair, I'm including Koreans in the Chinese figures as "East Asians" because they share more in common with each other than South Asians, Japanese, and Filipinos. East Asian also describes China and Korea, aptly.

          As a UC graduate myself, let me be the first to tell you the South Asians are about on par with whites when it comes to applying to medical school. Many South Asians I knew were getting blown away by the Chinese; oftentimes, South Asians were also more likely to be first or second generation US citizens, and most likely to have recently immigrated.

          Here are the demographics data from California as a whole:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Asian_Americans
          Out of those almost 5.6 million Asian Americans in California there are 1,474,707 Filipinos, 1,349,111 Chinese, 647,589 Vietnamese, 590,445 Indians, 505,225 Koreans, 428,14 Japanese, 109,928 Taiwanese, 102,317 Cambodians, 91,224 Hmong, 69,303 Laotians, 67,707 Thais

          So, here is a workup showing that 80% of the groups listed on UC Berkeley's campus are Chinese or Korean as compared to the state demographics:

          State

          Filipinos Chinese Vietnamese Koreans Japanese Total
          1474707 1349111 647589 505225 428140 4404772
          0.33 0.31 0.15 0.11 0.1 1

          UC Berkeley

          Filipinos Chinese Vietnamese Koreans Japanese Total
          108 942 142 260 68 1520
          0.07 0.62 0.09 0.17 0.04

          Filipinos are underrepresented by a factor of 4, Chinese are overrepresented by a factor of 2, Vietnamese are underrepresented by a factor of 60%, Koreans are overrepresented by a factor of 50%, and Japanese are underrepresented by a factor of 2.

          When you add the percentage of Chinese and Koreans together, you magically get 80% (.62+.17).

          This disparity only increases the further up you go; Chinese and Korean students are beating everyone's GPAs, and getting into medical school at much higher rates than all other Asians listed, above.
           

          ChemEngMD

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            Here are the Middle Eastern demographics data of Californians:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Middle_Eastern_Americans




            Here are the projections I'm using for Chinese vs. total Asian enrollment:
            http://opa.berkeley.edu/statistics/enrollmentdata.html

            The enrollment data you see in UCB's website shows that
            Pacific Islander 11 9 8 0.2% 0.2% 0.2%
            Chinese 942 883 889 21.2% 21.2% 18.9%
            Filipino 108 107 110 2.4% 2.6% 2.3%
            Japanese 68 66 62 1.5% 1.6% 1.3%
            Korean 260 224 249 5.9% 5.4% 5.3%
            Other Asian 46 45 78 1.0% 1.1% 1.7%
            South Asian 326 337 349 7.3% 8.1% 7.4%
            Vietnamese 142 142 128 3.2% 3.4% 2.7%



            To be fair, I'm including Koreans in the Chinese figures as "East Asians" because they share more in common with each other than South Asians, Japanese, and Filipinos. East Asian also describes China and Korea, aptly.

            As a UC graduate myself, let me be the first to tell you the South Asians are about on par with whites when it comes to applying to medical school. Many South Asians I knew were getting blown away by the Chinese; oftentimes, South Asians were also more likely to be first or second generation US citizens, and most likely to have recently immigrated.

            Here are the demographics data from California as a whole:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_California#Asian_Americans
            Out of those almost 5.6 million Asian Americans in California there are 1,474,707 Filipinos, 1,349,111 Chinese, 647,589 Vietnamese, 590,445 Indians, 505,225 Koreans, 428,14 Japanese, 109,928 Taiwanese, 102,317 Cambodians, 91,224 Hmong, 69,303 Laotians, 67,707 Thais

            So, here is a workup showing that 80% of the groups listed on UC Berkeley's campus are Chinese or Korean as compared to the state demographics:
            State
            Filipinos Chinese Vietnamese Koreans Japanese Total
            1474707 1349111 647589 505225 428140 4404772
            0.33 0.31 0.15 0.11 0.1 1
            UC Berkeley
            Filipinos Chinese Vietnamese Koreans Japanese Total
            108 942 142 260 68 1520
            0.07 0.62 0.09 0.17 0.04

            Filipinos are underrepresented by a factor of 4, Chinese are overrepresented by a factor of 2, Vietnamese are underrepresented by a factor of 60%, Koreans are overrepresented by a factor of 50%, and Japanese are underrepresented by a factor of 2.

            When you add the percentage of Chinese and Koreans together, you magically get 80% (.62+.17).

            This disparity only increases the further up you go; Chinese and Korean students are beating everyone's GPAs, and getting into medical school at much higher rates than all other Asians listed, above.

            When did UC Berkley open a medical school? You said 80% of Asian medical students were Chinese...not 80% of Asian UC Berkley students.
             

            QuinnTheEskimo

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              Quinn went a little overboard with the neo-nazi and bigot comment.

              But there is a remarkable similarity between MDforMee's comment on Asians and the institutional antisemitism of the early 1900s. Again, I don't think institutional racism is behind the discrepancies in Asian vs White vs URM statistics, but it is an interesting read nonetheless. http://jhmas.oxfordjournals.org/content/56/2/140.full.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1808007/

              Everyone needs to read the second link you posted. Very interesting and frighteningly similar to the anti-Asian biases expressed by students and Adcoms in this thread.
               
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              plumazul

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                I was able to find this, it looks like there was a huge dip around 9/11 (probably from the whole illegals are responsible for 9/11 xenophobic crap, pardon my language, that was sweeping the nation) but has gotten better:
                12238419966_720b9f3cba_z.jpg


                edit: i am not trying to imply that there are no mexican american problems in this regard, hope that did not come across

                Thanks for the graph. It's clear that zero progress has been made. If the graph had been adjusted to changes in total enrollment plus increases in the size/proportion of the Mexican American community, you probably wouldn't say it's "gotten better".
                 

                NuttyEngDude

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                  Thanks for the graph. It's clear that zero progress has been made. If the graph had been adjusted to changes in total enrollment plus increases in the size/proportion of the Mexican American community, you probably wouldn't say it's "gotten better".
                  "Better" is subjective, but I agree with you[...edit... that more progress must be made.] Not only has the mexican american population increased, but it will continue to do so as shown by the demographic trends of 2050.
                   
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                  StBernardsRule

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                    I thought about this a bit more last night (when something doesn't make sense to me I try to understand it) and I think I may be starting to make sense of how all this works.

                    Good point. And, I for one appreciate your use of the term "Chinese" when describing a specific type of Asian ethnicity.

                    But, Goro probably can't be more specific due to being an administrator, here. I wouldn't speak for Goro or Lizzy, but I was the first one in this thread to say that Chinese Asians are more than likely bombing the interviews. And, I was also the first one to delineate Chinese from the "Asian" term people here apparently feel comfortable throwing around, even though it marginalizes just about every non East Asian that isn't overrepresented in medical school. Back on page 2 I said the following:

                    "All of this aside, being a good medical school applicant isn't about being a grade robot that lives an insular life. And, unfortunately, there are many stereotypes about Asians (Chinese, especially) that are true to life; namely, that they shun anyone that isn't Chinese, that they don't care about undeserved communities, and that they'll do anything for a better grade than you (cheating on labs and homework assignments, kissing up, and so on).

                    I suspect that these unbecoming stereotypes of Asians are typified during interviews when interviewers ask the Chinese kids their opinions on social issues, what it's like to get their hands dirty in community work, and things of that nature. Interviewers probably see a phony, overly-polite "I care about people" facade creep onto their faces while their eyes tell the true story, glinting with self-centered, unfeeling, hateful disdain for the world outside of their Chinese-only academic bubbles."

                    My god this is so racist.

                    Indeed. That's incredibly racist and if you were to stereotype any other race like this you'd immediately face severe backlash. Honestly, if I were to stereoptype African Americans like that on this site I'd expect to be banned pretty quickly and if I were stereoptype African Americans like this in real life I'd expect to be scolded immediately and the people around me to seek repercussions (assuming I made a comment like this in school or in a hospital). But I'd bet 9 out of 10 times I could stereotype Asians like this and it'd be no big deal (I'm not Asian) and if someone did speak up they'd likely be Asian and I could quickly diffuse the situation by saying "Well come on, you know there's some truth to it, right?" or "Relax bud, I was just joking" and that would be the end of it. This would absolutely not be the case if I stereotyped another ethnicity like this.

                    So why is that the case? Well, my guess is it's simply due to the fact that Asians have been so much more successful than other minority groups that no one cares or wants to hear about racial discrimination against them. It reminds me of learning in class that the ONLY factor which consistently determines whether or not medical malpractice suites are successful is the outcome of the patient. The quality of care the patient received is actually close to irrelevant as only the results of his treatment matter. Well, I think a similar results oriented thought process is being applied here with regards to Asians. Are they being treated unfairly? Can you stereotype them in ways that would be completely socially unacceptable if they were any other ethnic group? Yes to both, but the overall outcome of Asians has still been phenomenal (they are on the whole dominating academics), so no one cares. Your race as a whole got a good outcome so as far as most of society is concerned your treatment is irrelevant.
                     
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                    MangoPlant

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                      I thought about this a bit more last night (when something doesn't make sense to me I try to understand it) and I think I may be starting to make sense of how all this works.





                      Indeed. That's incredibly racist and if you were to stereotype any other race like this you'd immediately face severe backlash. Honestly, if I were to stereoptype African Americans like that on this site I'd expect to be banned pretty quickly and if I were stereoptype African Americans like this in real life I'd expect to be scolded immediately and the people around me to seek repercussions (assuming I made a comment like this in school or in a hospital). But I'd bet 9 out of 10 times I could stereotype Asians like this and it'd be no big deal (I'm not Asian) and if someone did speak up they'd likely be Asian and I could quickly diffuse the situation by saying "Well come on, you know there's some truth to it, right?" or "Relax bud, I was just joking" and that would be the end of it. This would absolutely not be the case if I stereotyped another ethnicity like this.

                      So why is that the case? Well, my guess is it's simply due to the fact that Asians have been so much more successful than other minority groups that no one cares or wants to hear about racial discrimination against them. It reminds me of learning in class that the ONLY factor which consistently determines whether or not medical malpractice suites are successful is the outcome of the patient. The quality of care the patient received is actually close to irrelevant as only the results of his treatment matter. Well, I think a similar results oriented thought process is being applied here with regards to Asians. Are they been treated unfairly? Can you stereotype them in ways that would be completely socially unacceptable if they were any other ethnic group? Yes to both, but the overall outcome of Asians has still been phenomenal (they are on the whole dominating academics), so no one cares. Your race as a whole got a good outcome so as far as most of society is concerned your treatment is irrelevant.

                      Spot on. It's funny that none of the adcoms had anything to say about that racist comment against Chinese (btw I'm not Chinese) but jumped when they thought Quinn made a racist comment against URMs(even though it wasn't racist).

                      Another thing is that Asians (Japanese, Chinese, Indians, Pakistani) have pretty much no political power or groups that represent them, like how blacks have the NAACP. Instead, lots of people, seem to have the attitude that it's okay to discriminate against Asians because "they are successful."
                       
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                      MangoPlant

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                        Good point. And, I for one appreciate your use of the term "Chinese" when describing a specific type of Asian ethnicity.

                        But, Goro probably can't be more specific due to being an administrator, here. I wouldn't speak for Goro or Lizzy, but I was the first one in this thread to say that Chinese Asians are more than likely bombing the interviews. And, I was also the first one to delineate Chinese from the "Asian" term people here apparently feel comfortable throwing around, even though it marginalizes just about every non East Asian that isn't overrepresented in medical school. Back on page 2 I said the following:

                        "All of this aside, being a good medical school applicant isn't about being a grade robot that lives an insular life. And, unfortunately, there are many stereotypes about Asians (Chinese, especially) that are true to life; namely, that they shun anyone that isn't Chinese, that they don't care about undeserved communities, and that they'll do anything for a better grade than you (cheating on labs and homework assignments, kissing up, and so on).

                        I suspect that these unbecoming stereotypes of Asians are typified during interviews when interviewers ask the Chinese kids their opinions on social issues, what it's like to get their hands dirty in community work, and things of that nature. Interviewers probably see a phony, overly-polite "I care about people" facade creep onto their faces while their eyes tell the true story, glinting with self-centered, unfeeling, hateful disdain for the world outside of their Chinese-only academic bubbles."


                        No one is specifiying which type of Asian (Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc, etc) because that's not how the AAMC reports it. Look at all the tables that have been linked to in this thread. How many of them do you see where the different Asians are delineated? Even though the different Asians cultures are diverse and many don't even have similarities to each other, they are still considered one group.
                         
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                        MDforMee

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                          No one is specifiying which type of Asian (Chinese, Japanese, Indian, etc, etc) because that's not how the AAMC reports it. Look at all the tables that have been linked to in this thread. How many of them do you see where the different Asians are delineated? Even though the different Asians cultures are diverse and many don't even have similarities to each other, they are still considered one group.

                          I vote that we stop using the term "Asian." What do you think?
                           

                          Reckoner

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                            Everyone needs to read the second link you posted. Very interesting and frighteningly similar to the anti-Asian biases expressed by students and Adcoms in this thread.
                            Which biases are frighteningly similar? Show us quotes. I know it's easy to hysterically shout "JEWISH QUOTA," but it doesn't really contribute to the conversation.

                            MDforMee's statements are extreme (even for this thread), and don't represent what others have been arguing.
                             
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                            StBernardsRule

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                              Which biases are frighteningly similar? Show us quotes. I know it's easy to hysterically shout "JEWISH QUOTA," but it doesn't really contribute to the conversation.

                              MDforMee's statements are extreme (even for this thread), and don't represent what others have been arguing.

                              I agree with you about MDforMee's quotes, but the responses from other posters have been enlightening (and not all that surprising). He made a very racist post filled with stereotypes regarding Asians on page 2, yet here he stands posting away on page 12. This would not happen if the same post was made regarding African Americans or Latinos. There'd be a huge backlash and my guess is he'd be banned almost immediately.

                              What does that have to do with the thread? Not all that much, it just adds another example for Asians to add to there "Hey, look, it appears we're being treated unfairly here but no one seems to care" tally. And in my opinion it's a reasonable tally to keep.
                               
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                              Reckoner

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                                I agree with you about MDforMee's quotes, but the responses from other posters have been enlightening (and not all that surprising). He made a very racist post filled with stereotypes regarding Asians on page 2, yet here he stands posting away on page 12. This would not happen if the same post was made regarding African Americans or Latinos. There'd be a huge backlash and my guess is he'd be banned almost immediately.

                                What does that have to do with the thread? Not all that much, it just adds another example for Asians to add to there "Hey, look, it appears we're being treated unfairly here but no one seems to care" tally. And in my opinion it's a reasonable tally to keep.
                                Understandable. Here's the alternative: most people read that first post, thought "huh, troll." and stopped taking anything he posted seriously. (Was this just me?)
                                 

                                histidine

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                                  Which biases are frighteningly similar? Show us quotes. I know it's easy to hysterically shout "JEWISH QUOTA," but it doesn't really contribute to the conversation.
                                  MDforMee's statements are extreme (even for this thread), and don't represent what others have been arguing.
                                  Understandable. Here's the alternative: most people read that first post, thought "huh, troll." and stopped taking anything he posted seriously. (Was this just me?)
                                  I don't want to SDN tag the poster and bring him/her back into it, but here's a few off the first page (sorry I'm picking on one poster just because that's what was on the first two pages). They weren't as bad as MDforMee though.

                                  -Asian women in particular may be especially reserved because of cultural indoctrination and may not come off as confident and capable.
                                  -Certain stereotypes are based in fact and I am putting forth the argument that certain generalizations about a culture/ethnicity can explain the general trends (that is, AMCAS statistics) being put forth by other members.
                                  -Various Asian cultures are more prone to controlling their kids' choices and have not embraced the US mentality that young adults need to find a career that they are passionate about.
                                   
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                                  kyamh

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                                    I don't want to SDN tag the poster and bring him/her back into it, but here's a few off the first page (sorry I'm picking on one poster just because that's what was on the first two pages). They weren't as bad as MDforMee though.

                                    -Asian women in particular may be especially reserved because of cultural indoctrination and may not come off as confident and capable.
                                    -Certain stereotypes are based in fact and I am putting forth the argument that certain generalizations about a culture/ethnicity can explain the general trends (that is, AMCAS statistics) being put forth by other members.
                                    -Various Asian cultures are more prone to controlling their kids' choices and have not embraced the US mentality that young adults need to find a career that they are passionate about.

                                    Yep, that's me, no need to tag ;) Immigrant Asian (Eastern European Asian) with a crap ton of Asian culture experience in this and a foreign country. Also a woman and gay. What's up?
                                     
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                                    histidine

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                                      Yep, that's me, no need to tag ;) Immigrant Asian (Eastern European Asian) with a crap ton of Asian culture experience in this and a foreign country. Also a woman and gay. What's up?
                                      Not much, just pointing out MDforMee was not the only one that pointed to stereotypes to justify discrepancies, as true as those stereotypes may be.
                                       

                                      buttercup12

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                                        Good point. And, I for one appreciate your use of the term "Chinese" when describing a specific type of Asian ethnicity.

                                        But, Goro probably can't be more specific due to being an administrator, here. I wouldn't speak for Goro or Lizzy, but I was the first one in this thread to say that Chinese Asians are more than likely bombing the interviews. And, I was also the first one to delineate Chinese from the "Asian" term people here apparently feel comfortable throwing around, even though it marginalizes just about every non East Asian that isn't overrepresented in medical school. Back on page 2 I said the following:

                                        "All of this aside, being a good medical school applicant isn't about being a grade robot that lives an insular life. And, unfortunately, there are many stereotypes about Asians (Chinese, especially) that are true to life; namely, that they shun anyone that isn't Chinese, that they don't care about undeserved communities, and that they'll do anything for a better grade than you (cheating on labs and homework assignments, kissing up, and so on).

                                        I suspect that these unbecoming stereotypes of Asians are typified during interviews when interviewers ask the Chinese kids their opinions on social issues, what it's like to get their hands dirty in community work, and things of that nature. Interviewers probably see a phony, overly-polite "I care about people" facade creep onto their faces while their eyes tell the true story, glinting with self-centered, unfeeling, hateful disdain for the world outside of their Chinese-only academic bubbles."


                                        This is awful. I know that I strongly disagree with some people in this thread but this seriously crosses the line. I hope you realize that.
                                         
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                                        histidine

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                                          Yep, that's me, no need to tag ;) Immigrant Asian (Eastern European Asian) with a crap ton of Asian culture experience in this and a foreign country. Also a woman and gay. What's up?

                                          I also want to point out that LizzyM liked your post when you generalized across all Asians, which, in her definition, is racist.

                                          (Personally I don't think your comment was racist)
                                           
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                                          SunsFun

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                                            Curious, what is the desi atittude towards being a doctor and what is yours? you dont have to state your ethnicity, but I am always curious of other viewponts outside of the mainstream American view.


                                            This is true that there is a negative psychological effect that occurs which has harmed blacks (and most likely latinos) but what has been overlooked is that this positive expectation for asians is also harmful. This study shows that the opposite expectation hurts asians as well. This study showed that asians being told they were high achievers in math ended up doing worse due to the pressure:
                                            http://depts.washington.edu/sibl/Publications/Cheryan & Bodenhausen (2000).pdf
                                            I would elaborate more here on my personal experiences but i don't feel like being called racist against Asians (or even self-hating lol).

                                            Your link doesn't work. I was actually very curious to see how a positive stereotype would worsen someone's performance. So far all of the research I've seen shows the opposite. It seems to be a very plausible explanation as to why Asians excel academically while blacks and Hispanics struggle. I can find some links that show this phenomenon if you'd like.

                                            Overall, the reason I brought it up is because this type of expectation seems to be a barrier that is very specific to URM. They are the ones impacted the most from very beginning of their lives.

                                            djcn
                                             

                                            StBernardsRule

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                                              Understandable. Here's the alternative: most people read that first post, thought "huh, troll." and stopped taking anything he posted seriously. (Was this just me?)

                                              The problem is my point still stands even if he is a troll.

                                              I could make a troll post filled with Asian stereotypes in a thread which basically ask "Are Asians being treated unfairly?" and it will get mostly ignored. Sure, we're talking about this guys post several pages later after he's quoted himself and continued to post in the thread (which makes me wonder if he really is a troll to begin with), but he wasn't banned or anything. If I make a troll post stereotyping African Americans I'll face immediate backlash (I'll be told I'm racist and ignorant) and my guess is I'll be banned very quickly.
                                               
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                                              histidine

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                                                Cool :) totally fair. Sorry, I have only skimmed the last page or so of the thread :confused:

                                                I think putting out these stereotypes for further investigation is okay. ChmEngMD cited research that showed asians are more likely to be influenced by their parents, so it may indeed affect the admissions statistics. However MDforMee threw out the possibility that discrimination plays any role, and claimed a variety of stereotypes as the real reason of the admissions discrepancies. Since you mentioned you are a woman :) I'll use this example. Women don't make it up the corporate ladder as often as men and get paid less than men in the same job position. People have used stereotypes such as "women are more likely to devote time to family than their work," "women are more likely to choose positions with less stress," "women are less aggressive than men," etc. I'm sure you've heard the excuses. There may be some truth to these stereotypes, but further research has actually proved gender discrimination to be real. Discrediting discrimination by pointing to solely to stereotypes is a cop out, in my opinion.
                                                 
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                                                  The problem is my point still stands even if he is a troll.

                                                  I could make a troll post filled with Asian stereotypes in a thread which basically ask "Are Asians being treated unfairly?" and it will get mostly ignored. Sure, we're talking about this guys post several pages later after he's quoted himself and continued to post in the thread (which makes me wonder if he really is a troll to begin with), but he wasn't banned or anything. If I make a troll post stereotyping African Americans I'll face immediate backlash (I'll be told I'm racist and ignorant) and my guess is I'll be banned very quickly.

                                                  Ehhh, I understand your point but I think it has more with the fact that more overt stereotypes about African Americans exist and everybody has been taught repeatedly that's wrong. It's obviously wrong both ways and I wouldn't be surprised if the powers that be put MdforMee on probation but it's just that way it is. Not that it should be.
                                                   

                                                  StBernardsRule

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                                                    Won't keep commenting on this as I don't plan to beat a dead horse, but here we see it again.

                                                    Understandable. Here's the alternative: most people read that first post, thought "huh, troll." and stopped taking anything he posted seriously. (Was this just me?)

                                                    Yup that was me 2

                                                    The attitude that it's just a troll post and no big deal is ONLY acceptable because it's a troll post stereotyping Asians. It's no different than if in real life I were to stereotype Asians people would likely say "Relax, StBernardsRule was only joking" or "Relax, there's some truth to what StBernardsRule says and he's not racist" yet if I were to make equivalent comments regarding African Americans I will get nowhere close to the same response.

                                                    Anyways, I know I'm getting off topic, I just want to point out that I feel like the responses to my post are actually just supporting it.
                                                     
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                                                    StBernardsRule

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                                                      Ehhh, I understand your point but I think it has more with the fact that more overt stereotypes about African Americans exist and everybody has been taught repeatedly that's wrong. It's obviously wrong both ways and I wouldn't be surprised if the powers that be put MdforMee on probation but it's just that way it is. Not that it should be.

                                                      I agree with this.
                                                       

                                                      Reckoner

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                                                        The problem is my point still stands even if he is a troll.

                                                        I could make a troll post filled with Asian stereotypes in a thread which basically ask "Are Asians being treated unfairly?" and it will get mostly ignored. Sure, we're talking about this guys post several pages later after he's quoted himself and continued to post in the thread (which makes me wonder if he really is a troll to begin with), but he wasn't banned or anything. If I make a troll post stereotyping African Americans I'll face immediate backlash (I'll be told I'm racist and ignorant) and my guess is I'll be banned very quickly.
                                                        And this is exactly why @touchpause13 posted about avoiding "oppression olympics." It devolves into these nonsense arguments over hypothetical levels of outrage to hypothetical posts about different racial groups.
                                                        It's no different than if in real life I were to stereotype Asians people would likely say "Relax, StBernardsRule was only joking" or "Relax, there's some truth to what StBernardsRule says and he's not racist" yet if I were to make equivalent comments regarding African Americans I will get nowhere close to the same response.
                                                        Once again, I'm not going to argue against imagined scenarios.

                                                        The attitude that it's just a troll post and no big deal is ONLY acceptable because it's a troll post stereotyping Asians.
                                                        This is untrue, at least for me. I would do (and have done) exactly the same for anyone who posts racist garbage.
                                                         
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                                                        StBernardsRule

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                                                          Probably my last post on this topic as I just don't think we're going to agree on this and I feel I've made my points clear (nothing wrong with this as we don't need to agree and it's good to hear other's opinions, I just don't want to clutter the thread).

                                                          And this is exactly why @touchpause13 posted about avoiding "oppression olympics." It devolves into these nonsense arguments over hypothetical levels of outrage to hypothetical posts about different racial groups.

                                                          Once again, I'm not going to argue against imagined scenarios.

                                                          The problem is you more or less have to use common sense, look at data, and use imagined situations when discussing topics like this. It's not like we're in a laboratory where everything can be more or less perfectly controlled. There are too many variables that can't perfectly be taken into account, so it becomes more important to use common sense.

                                                          Also, a common mistake I see is people on these forums usually tend to think studies are much more objective than they are. Researchers regularly won't want to publish results which they feel will be detrimental to their careers and most studies require some funding. So, it doesn't surprise me at all if there's no study showing that Asians are discriminated against in their admissions for medical school (relative to whites) as it's very possible that study wouldn't get funded in the first place or researchers wouldn't have access to the data they need to conduct the study. After all, if any medical schools (or undergraduate schools) do have informal quotas on Asians, I can't imagine they want that information getting out.

                                                          Because "do whites have an advantage over Asians at getting into medical school when absolutely everything else is equal" isn't something that can be tested directly, when trying to answer this question it makes sense for people to rely more on their own experiences, look for historical examples which they think are similar to this, and extrapolate a bit extra from the limited data we do have.

                                                          I was simply pointing that humans as a whole are a very results oriented species (and gave a specific example of that with medical malpractice) as well as that my own personal experiences suggests than when Asians are being treated unfairly they're more likely to ignored because as a whole they've been so successful.

                                                          This is untrue, at least for me. I would do (and have done) exactly the same for anyone who posts racist garbage.

                                                          I believe you and imagine this is true for 90%+ of posters.
                                                           
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                                                          ChemEngMD

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                                                            If you want to get into a disenfranchisement and institutional oppression length contest, turn to the women in this country. Despite the setbacks women face historically, societally, economically, and academically (those studies about academic expectations exist in large numbers for women underperforming in math and science) your average female applicant does not lean back and prop herself up on the plight of women from the past. Medicine failed to welcome women for a long time, women hold few positions of power, women earn less, women disproportionally live in poverty...etc. I can go on and link every argument on this thread about challenges faced by URMs to similar and greater challenges faced by women.

                                                            I just wish we would stop talking about "historical" reasons. Applicants have real life situations here and now that affect their applications. Adcoms understand these situations and make allowances. It is just frustrating to keep on reading arguments about who America used to oppress. The bottom line is that basically every group was discriminated against in this country at one point or another and basically every group has members who continue to live with the consequences of that historic discrimination. We move on.

                                                            I would never downplay the struggle and plight of women in this country for equality. It is something that continues to this day and is still very important. Because of this I believe gender should obviously also be considered in admission. (I think sexual preference should as well, but we're still a ways off from that being officially considered, unfortunately.)

                                                            I personally think that schools do a good job at making sure that men and women are properly represented in medical school classes. But you can't deny that women benefited from AA due to historical discrimination in the past. If anything, I think that women's equality at the college and higher education level (obviously there are still great strides to be made in positions of power and leadership in many fields) could be used as the poster child for how AA can benefit a demographic in this country. As you said before, they were severely underrepresented for many years in medicine and now they match their representation at the population level. This has been through many AA and outreach efforts from kindergarten and pre-k all the way up through the college level.

                                                            Obviously there are still certain fields, such as engineering, where women are still severely underrepresented and there are still outreach efforts to improve this, and as you stated, women are severely underrepresented at positions of power in all fields, but if URMs can follow in the footsteps that have been laid out by the effort for gender equality, I would be ecstatic. Then perhaps in another generation or two we can all share this attitude of forgetting the past and moving on.
                                                             
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                                                            QuinnTheEskimo

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                                                              Which biases are frighteningly similar? Show us quotes. I know it's easy to hysterically shout "JEWISH QUOTA," but it doesn't really contribute to the conversation.

                                                              MDforMee's statements are extreme (even for this thread), and don't represent what others have been arguing.

                                                              Please read the article. I am not going to go through and hand-pick quotes for you.

                                                              Off the top of my head, one interesting quote was from the dean of Cornell Medical College in the 1930s. He said something along the lines of, "we try to keep the percentage of Jews in our school equal to the percentage of Jews in the state." This was despite the fact that Jews made up 60% of the qualified applicant pool at the time. Back then, Jews were in a similar position to Asians today -- many were immigrants or children of immigrants, and were working like dogs to get their educations and rise up in American society.

                                                              Replace "Jew" with any major racial group, and you have the attitude that STILL EXISTS TODAY among AdComs. Both Goro and LizzyM have made statements along the lines of, "There's nothing wrong with selecting a class that reflects the American demographic." Like 80 years ago, the argument is for "diversity" or more balanced demographic representation, but the upshot is that the standards are raised or lowered depending merely on the color of your skin. Shouldn't individuals be judged on their merit as members of the HUMAN race? Isn't that exactly what MLK himself hoped for?
                                                               
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                                                              NuttyEngDude

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                                                                I would elaborate more here on my personal experiences but i don't feel like being called racist against Asians (or even self-hating lol).
                                                                It's ok. :D

                                                                Your link doesn't work. I was actually very curious to see how a positive stereotype would worsen someone's performance. So far all of the research I've seen shows the opposite. It seems to be a very plausible explanation as to why Asians excel academically while blacks and Hispanics struggle. I can find some links that show this phenomenon if you'd like.
                                                                Not sure why the link wouldn't work but I attached the file (Named Cheryan & Doenhausen 2000.pdf ). I'm aware of the phenomenon, it's brought up a few times in different textbooks in my classes, the first was psychology where it demonstrated how powerful an effect suggestion could have and the second time in a sociology class where the asian female had multiple roles to juggle. In this case, if she focused on her asian stereotype role she did better than if she focused on her female" role. I think the case of labeling people (even if it's a "good" label) can have detrimental effects. I do not know if it has "on average" better effects if it's a good label, but I believe that is not the case. It seems like studies show anyone can be put into this bad underperforming situation.

                                                                Another thing I'd like to add is while I'll be the first person to admit being white in America probably means you'll face the least amount of discrimination (on average) possible, you learn pretty quickly that being white means you have to be very, very careful with everything you say regarding race. Someone in this very thread has already said racism is only possible in America when white people are doing it (I heard this last week as well, though not on this site).
                                                                This is true, there is a watchdog type of situation in effect. I dont know what to say to this though other than sort of nod my head.

                                                                If I were to make a comment about how I think taking race into account for medical school admissions is unfair I imagine I'd quickly get a lecture about "white privilege" and be told I can't understand racism because I'm white.
                                                                White privilege doesn't mean you are immune to others being prejudiced towards you, but you will definitely not be subjected to the prejudiced others feel and to the extent that they do. Regardless, judgment against reverse discrimination has been successfully applied: http://www.shmoop.com/equal-protection/university-of-california-v-bakke.html

                                                                If you want to get into a disenfranchisement and institutional oppression length contest, turn to the women in this country. Despite the setbacks women face historically, societally, economically, and academically (those studies about academic expectations exist in large numbers for women underperforming in math and science) your average female applicant does not lean back and prop herself up on the plight of women from the past. Medicine failed to welcome women for a long time, women hold few positions of power, women earn less, women disproportionally live in poverty...etc. I can go on and link every argument on this thread about challenges faced by URMs to similar and greater challenges faced by women.

                                                                I just wish we would stop talking about "historical" reasons. Applicants have real life situations here and now that affect their applications. Adcoms understand these situations and make allowances. It is just frustrating to keep on reading arguments about who America used to oppress. The bottom line is that basically every group was discriminated against in this country at one point or another and basically every group has members who continue to live with the consequences of that historic discrimination. We move on.
                                                                Women have no doubt been oppressed. I have looked at the aamc data since 2004 and female enrollments seem pretty good, roughly 50/50 (obviously not 50/50, there are still more men being admitted despite 51% of the population being female, there may or may not be other factors which may account for this that I have not explored). I think LizzyM said accepted female MCAT averages are lower in comparison to males too. Do you feel there is more to be made on this front or is it better elsewhere, such as leadership positions?

                                                                I know it sounded bad, so sorry to put my sdn friends off with it.
                                                                It's cool, we're all here to learn :D

                                                                -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                This line of demarcation represents response not to anyone's post in particular but to the thread in general


                                                                There seems to be a few groups that exist with no discernable data for in AAMC, the LBGT group and the middle eastern group. If this data does exist, it would be cool to sift through. I do have some friends who have made these aspects central to their application and have been accepted but I think they had the stats to support it, I dont know how much it affects things.


                                                                Regarding what I said earlier about trying to find any type of bias which may result in a net negative situation for asians, I found this:
                                                                12240567835_853e85c0cb_z.jpg

                                                                Which shows matriculating asians showing a lower % for parents being the reasons to study medicine, than any other group excluding whites. This COULD show bias in the sense that if so many asians are being pushed into medicine by their parents, that adcoms are effectively selecting them out at as a group maybe too effectively since they have the spotlight on them in this regards. But maybe not since they are still higher than whites for citing this reason.

                                                                I tried to find older data to compare with, the oldest I could find was 2004:
                                                                12241277783_859ac107e2_z.jpg


                                                                So in 2004 it shows that parental influence are roughly the same % for matriculated asians. I surmise at some point there must have been some data somewhere or something that caused this vigilance about asians and their parental influence of going into medicine. But anyways, it seems it was in 2004 when there was a reverse trend in declining applications to medical school:
                                                                https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/newsreleases/2003/95362/031104.html
                                                                Washington, D.C., November 4, 2003—After a six-year decline, the number of applicants to U.S. medical schools is on the rise, according to data released today by the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC). Almost 35,000 individuals applied to attend medical school in the 2003-2004 school year, a 3.4 percent increase over last year's applicant pool of 33,625. The main reason for the increase was the number of women applicants - 17,672 - an almost seven percent rise over last year's total.

                                                                As a side note, I find it hilarious that now, one of the reasons cited is "competitiveness/challenge of medicine" :thinking:
                                                                 

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                                                                MangoPlant

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                                                                  LizzyM said:
                                                                  The applicants most likely to "test positive" for external forces pushing them into medicine are Asian.

                                                                  NuttyEngDude provided this graph:

                                                                  12240567835_853e85c0cb_z.jpg



                                                                  Well so much for Asians being most likely to be pushed into medicine by their parents. Data shows that this is false and in fact nothing more than a stereotype. Perhaps whatever 'test' you used to determine whether someone is being pushed into medicine is biased towards Asians (not saying it is).
                                                                   
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                                                                  Reckoner

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                                                                    that my own personal experiences suggests than when Asians are being treated unfairly they're more likely to ignored because as a whole they've been so successful.
                                                                    I have absolutely no problem with this statement :thumbup:
                                                                    Please read the article. I am not going to go through and hand-pick quotes for you.

                                                                    Off the top of my head, one interesting quote was from the dean of admissions at Cornell Medical School in the 1930s. He said something along the lines of, "we try to keep the percentage of Jews in our school equal to the percentage of Jews in the state." This was despite the fact that Jews made up 60% of the qualified applicant pool at the time. Back then, Jews were in a similar position to Asians today -- many were immigrants or children of immigrants, and were working like dogs to get their educations and rise up in American society.

                                                                    Replace "Jew" with any other major racial group, and you have the attitude that STILL EXIST TODAY among AdComs. Both Goro and Lizzym have made statements along the lines of, "There's nothing wrong with building a class that reflects the American demographic." Like 80 years ago, the argument is for "diversity" or more balanced demographic representation, but the upshot is that the standards are raised or lowered depending merely on the color of your skin. Shouldn't individuals be judged on their merit as members of the HUMAN race? Isn't this what MLK himself hoped for?
                                                                    First of all, to address the quota comparison, here's a quote from the article:
                                                                    It was from two and a half to five times more difficult for a Jew to be admitted to seven of nine medical schools in New York State than for Christian applicants of comparable academic standing. A detailed analysis of the Cornell University Medical College disclosed that 4.9% of Jewish applicants were accepted compared with 15.3% of Catholics and 24.6% of Protestants. These numbers understated the situation."
                                                                    This is clear evidence of a quota, especially considering your point that ~60% of the applicant pool was Jewish. We're talking about a difference of two percent in acceptance rates.

                                                                    Second, you should probably add a little context with your "quotations" of @Goro and W.S. Ladd

                                                                    Here's a very simple answer to this. URMs get cut some slack in the admissions process because they're, well, under represented as a demographic amongst physicians. Given that there is a an over-supply in qualified applicants, it's perfectly acceptable to pick up some applicants who might not have the highest numbers.

                                                                    It's OK to have a physician population that mirrors the US, even if it means the process is not 100% meritocratic. Actually, the process IS meritocratic, it's just not 100% numbers driven.
                                                                    We limit the percentage of Jews admitted to each class to roughly the proportion of Jews in the population of Jews in the state. - W.S. Ladd

                                                                    Goro can defend himself if he wants to, but I would urge you to consider what he's arguing for here, in contrast to the quote from Ladd. There's a fundamental difference.

                                                                    To be clear, I don't think discrimination against Asian applicants to medical school is nonexistent, but based on the data presented I would agree with @SunsFun and others that it probably comes from subconscious biases during interviews. What you're trying to compare it to was a clear attempt to push a segment of the population out of medicine.
                                                                     
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                                                                    Mad Jack

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                                                                      Please read the article. I am not going to go through and hand-pick quotes for you.

                                                                      Off the top of my head, one interesting quote was from the dean of Cornell Medical College in the 1930s. He said something along the lines of, "we try to keep the percentage of Jews in our school equal to the percentage of Jews in the state." This was despite the fact that Jews made up 60% of the qualified applicant pool at the time. Back then, Jews were in a similar position to Asians today -- many were immigrants or children of immigrants, and were working like dogs to get their educations and rise up in American society.

                                                                      Replace "Jew" with any major racial group, and you have the attitude that STILL EXISTS TODAY among AdComs. Both Goro and LizzyM have made statements along the lines of, "There's nothing wrong with selecting a class that reflects the American demographic." Like 80 years ago, the argument is for "diversity" or more balanced demographic representation, but the upshot is that the standards are raised or lowered depending merely on the color of your skin. Shouldn't individuals be judged on their merit as members of the HUMAN race? Isn't that exactly what MLK himself hoped for?
                                                                      Ideally that would be the case. Trouble is, they're trying to pick the best doctors to serve the communities upon which the medical school focuses. People are more likely to be compliant, receptive, and open if their physician is a member of their community. Therefore, an African American doctor from the inner city, that understands the issues and problems that that particular population faces, that the people will trust to not judge them or look down upon them, is the best physician for that community. Being a doctor is just as much about how well your patients population receives you as it is about how smart you are. Until we live in a truly post-racial society, affirmative action will be necessary to ensure that we can turn out the best doctors for a variety of communities, not just the smartest physicians overall.
                                                                       
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                                                                      ChemEngMD

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                                                                        Well careful though, the graph is matriculated students, it is possible that during the interview they were weeded out and I'm sure data on this does not exist, but I'm interested in finding more info on it.

                                                                        It is also self-reported data I presume? And you're allowed to put down as many as you want as well, yes? Because it looks like the Latinos were a little trigger happy with some of those answers and I'm sure a lot of people marked down more than just one reason.

                                                                        Also, if it is self-reported data and Asian applicants are aware of the stereotype of them being pushed into medicine by their parents (it's not like this is a new thing), how many would then list this reason as why they went into medicine?

                                                                        I know that I have definitely sub-consciously answered some surveys differently in the past because my ethnicity was on it and I didn't want to perpetuate stereotypes.
                                                                         
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                                                                        QuinnTheEskimo

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                                                                          Ideally that would be the case. Trouble is, they're trying to pick the best doctors to serve the communities upon which the medical school focuses. People are more likely to be compliant, receptive, and open if their physician is a member of their community. Therefore, an African American doctor from the inner city, that understands the issues and problems that that particular population faces, that the people will trust to not judge them or look down upon them, is the best physician for that community. Being a doctor is just as much about how well your patients population receives you as it is about how smart you are. Until we live in a truly post-racial society, affirmative action will be necessary to ensure that we can turn out the best doctors for a variety of communities, not just the smartest physicians overall.

                                                                          For the sake of argument: Pretend you are an admissions officer in 1920. A lesbian Cherokee woman applies with stellar academical credentials. Your argument: Reject her, she will make patients uncomfortable (the vast majority of Americans at the time would not want a female/LGBT/minority doctor) and "being a doctor is just as much about how well your patient population receives you as it is about how smart you are."

                                                                          Today, you would say that the 1920 admissions officer was acting unethically. How is your argument any different? I maintain that selecting your class based on characteristics such as gender/race/sexual orientation is fundamentally un-American.
                                                                           
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