• AMA with Certified Student Loan Professional

    Join SDN on December 7th at 6:00 PM Eastern as we host Andrew Paulson of StudentLoanAdvice.com for an AMA webinar. He'll be answering your questions about how to best manage your student loans. Register now!

Not mentioning ethnicity on applications - disadvantage?

Pacna

Dyslexics, untie!
7+ Year Member
Jun 2, 2013
2,001
2,344
MN
  1. Medical Student
    For the sake of argument: Pretend you are an admissions officer in 1920. A lesbian Cherokee woman applies with stellar academical credentials. Your argument: Reject her, she will make patients uncomfortable, and "being a doctor is just as much about how well your patient population receives you as it is about how smart you are."

    Today, you would say that the 1920 admissions officer was acting unethically. How is your argument any different? I maintain that selecting your class based on characteristics such as gender/race/sexual orientation is fundamentally un-American.

    Well put, sir/ma'am. *applause*
     
    • Like
    Reactions: 1 users

    Mad Jack

    Critically Caring
    7+ Year Member
    Jul 27, 2013
    37,351
    72,388
    4th Dimension
      For the sake of argument: Pretend you are an admissions officer in 1920. A lesbian Cherokee woman applies with stellar academical credentials. Your argument: Reject her, she will make patients uncomfortable (the vast majority of Americans at the time would not want a female/LGBT/minority doctor) and "being a doctor is just as much about how well your patient population receives you as it is about how smart you are."

      Today, you would say that the 1920 admissions officer was acting unethically. How is your argument any different? I maintain that selecting your class based on characteristics such as gender/race/sexual orientation is fundamentally un-American.
      Did I say that I was making an ethical argument? My argument is based on physician effectiveness, not ethics, fairness, or appeals to American sentiment. Though an admission committee member might argue that schools have an ethical obligation to provide effective physicians for the underserved, in which case they are fulfilling their ethical obligation. Their obligation is not to fairness, nor is it to American values.
       
      • Like
      Reactions: 2 users

      QuinnTheEskimo

      Full Member
      Jan 9, 2014
      650
      637
      1. Pre-Medical
        Did I say that I was making an ethical argument? My argument is based on physician effectiveness, not ethics, fairness, or appeals to American sentiment. Though an admission committee member might argue that schools have an ethical obligation to provide effective physicians for the underserved, in which case they are fulfilling their ethical obligation. Their obligation is not to fairness, nor is it to American values.

        Except in another post LizzyM argued that URM should be given preference because middle-class URMs would enjoy going to doctors of the same skin color. What? Ridiculous argument, imo, and one that could be used to justify all kinds of prejudicial decisions.

        No, medical schools do not have an obligation to fairness, or to American values. But have you considered that the current system serves to perpetuate anger and prejudice? I have overheard more than one person say that they will not go to an URM physician, or even one with a Hispanic surname. That's very sad, but it's the truth, because people are under the impression that such individuals are given a "boost" in admissions. If I were an URM, I would fight to get rid of this stigma. The first step would be to stop selecting students based on their race.
         
        • Like
        Reactions: 2 users
        About the Ads

        NuttyEngDude

        Red-Flagville
        10+ Year Member
        Oct 28, 2010
        2,319
        629
        1. Resident [Any Field]
          It is also self-reported data I presume? And you're allowed to put down as many as you want as well, yes? Because it looks like the Latinos were a little trigger happy with some of those answers and I'm sure a lot of people marked down more than just one reason.

          Also, if it is self-reported data and Asian applicants are aware of the stereotype of them being pushed into medicine by their parents (it's not like this is a new thing), how many would then list this reason as why they went into medicine?

          I know that I have definitely sub-consciously answered some surveys differently in the past because my ethnicity was on it and I didn't want to perpetuate stereotypes.
          Well thats the thing and one of the reasons why I wanted to find more data points on it. At which point did this stereotype exist and to the point that it started to matter in admissions? Also in 2004 around the time when admissions were at their lowest, did this matter then? I agree that the data is spotty, but I want to find more on it. You would think that at some point that asians knowing this is an issue would start to under report more than what is shown from 2004 to 2011. I dont think there is a danger of latinos or african americans being accused of being pushed into medicine by their parents.

          There is also another problem with the data and that is, what does "parental influence" mean anyway? it can mean different things to different people. I'm looking for more data is the point.
           

          touchpause13

          nolite te bastardes carborundorum
          5+ Year Member
          Jun 25, 2012
          14,115
          13,715
          The North
            I love how some people here have basically said that we don't have white people only go to white doctors because that's racist. Yes it's racist and yes it happens all the time. What am I supposed to say when a patient calls and says they don't want to see any of those Indian doctors? Tough titty?
             

            QuinnTheEskimo

            Full Member
            Jan 9, 2014
            650
            637
            1. Pre-Medical
              I love how some people here have basically said that we don't have white people only go to white doctors because that's racist. Yes it's racist and yes it happens all the time. What am I supposed to say when a patient calls and says they don't want to see any of those Indian doctors? Tough titty?

              Can you please rephrase this in English?
               

              Pacna

              Dyslexics, untie!
              7+ Year Member
              Jun 2, 2013
              2,001
              2,344
              MN
              1. Medical Student
                Did I say that I was making an ethical argument? My argument is based on physician effectiveness, not ethics, fairness, or appeals to American sentiment. Though an admission committee member might argue that schools have an ethical obligation to provide effective physicians for the underserved, in which case they are fulfilling their ethical obligation. Their obligation is not to fairness, nor is it to American values.

                I don't know how you could seriously consider making a utilitarian argument about this, and that's exactly what you're doing. In what world does increasing patient satisfaction by a few %s justify institutional racism?

                You could save a lot of money on the prison system if you just immediately wood chippered someone convicted for a life sentence, but that's wrong. Utilitarian arguments have no place in this discussion.
                 
                • Like
                Reactions: 1 user

                NuttyEngDude

                Red-Flagville
                10+ Year Member
                Oct 28, 2010
                2,319
                629
                1. Resident [Any Field]
                  I love how some people here have basically said that we don't have white people only go to white doctors because that's racist. Yes it's racist and yes it happens all the time. What am I supposed to say when a patient calls and says they don't want to see any of those Indian doctors? Tough titty?
                  I dont have a solution but your message reminded me of this article: http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/25/when-the-patient-is-racist/
                  In his thought-provoking essay, Dr. Jain, an attending physician at the Boston V.A. Medical Center, describes an encounter with a hospitalized patient who is upset over a pharmacy regulation. Frustrated that he cannot obtain his usual type of insulin, the patient turns on Dr. Jain. “You peopleare so incompetent,” he says. “Why don’t you go back to India?”

                  ....

                  The essay illustrates the paradox that exists in medicine’s attitude toward race. Doctors are under strict ethical provisions not to refuse patients, and in medical school and during training, they learn to filter their own responses in order to help patients feel safe and secure.

                  But many extend these lessons in modulating one’s responses to situations where patients make demands and behave in ways that in any other public setting would be considered discriminatory or even racist. One study, for example, revealed thatup to almost a third of doctors would, without question, concede to a patient’s demand for physicians of a certain race, ethnicity, gender or religion.
                   
                  • Like
                  Reactions: 1 users

                  touchpause13

                  nolite te bastardes carborundorum
                  5+ Year Member
                  Jun 25, 2012
                  14,115
                  13,715
                  The North
                    It's a tough situation. On one hand, shouldn't everyone deserve care? Regardless of whether or not they are a racist, sexist, homophobe, etc? But on the other hand, shouldn't people in the healthcare profession be able to go to work without hearing abusive statements?
                     

                    Mad Jack

                    Critically Caring
                    7+ Year Member
                    Jul 27, 2013
                    37,351
                    72,388
                    4th Dimension
                      I don't know how you could seriously consider making a utilitarian argument about this, and that's exactly what you're doing. In what world does increasing patient satisfaction by a few %s justify institutional racism?

                      You could save a lot of money on the prison system if you just immediately wood chippered someone convicted for a life sentence, but that's wrong. Utilitarian arguments have no place in this discussion.
                      It isn't about satisfaction, it is about compliance and trust. If your patient doesn't trust their physician to not judge them, they might withhold vital information about everything from sexual history to drug use. If they think their doctor is just some white guy that doesn't give a damn about them, they're less likely to follow his treatment plans. It is a known fact that patient trust significantly impacts treatment outcomes, and that the race of the physician can impact that trust relationship. Minority patients trust minority physicians more than white physicians. Therefore, treatment outcomes will be improved, in addition to patient satisfaction, if we provide members of minority communities with minority physicians. This is a perfectly sound utilitarian argument.

                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19177509
                      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1497554/
                      http://annfammed.org/content/3/2/138.full.pdf
                       
                      Last edited:
                      • Like
                      Reactions: 1 user

                      Reckoner

                      I heard the jury's still out on science
                      10+ Year Member
                      Sep 27, 2011
                      1,371
                      2,971
                      1. MD/PhD Student
                        It isn't about satisfaction, it is about compliance and trust. If your patient doesn't trust their physician to not judge them, they might withhold vital information about everything from sexual history to drug use. If they think their doctor is just some white guy that doesn't give a damn about them, they're less likely to follow his treatment plans. It is a known fact that patient trust significantly impacts treatment outcomes, and that the race of the physician can impact that trust relationship. Minority patients trust minority physicians more than white physicians. Therefore, treatment outcomes will be improved, in addition to patient satisfaction, if we provide members of minority communities with minority physicians. This is a perfectly sound utilitarian argument.

                        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1917750
                        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1497554/
                        http://annfammed.org/content/3/2/138.full.pdf
                        I think you may have pasted the wrong link for that first one
                         
                        • Like
                        Reactions: 1 user

                        Pacna

                        Dyslexics, untie!
                        7+ Year Member
                        Jun 2, 2013
                        2,001
                        2,344
                        MN
                        1. Medical Student
                          It isn't about satisfaction, it is about compliance and trust. If your patient doesn't trust their physician to not judge them, they might withhold vital information about everything from sexual history to drug use. If they think their doctor is just some white guy that doesn't give a damn about them, they're less likely to follow his treatment plans. It is a known fact that patient trust significantly impacts treatment outcomes, and that the race of the physician can impact that trust relationship. Minority patients trust minority physicians more than white physicians. Therefore, treatment outcomes will be improved, in addition to patient satisfaction, if we provide members of minority communities with minority physicians. This is a perfectly sound utilitarian argument.

                          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1917750
                          http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1497554/
                          http://annfammed.org/content/3/2/138.full.pdf

                          The bolded point was never in question. You're right. It's a sound utilitarian argument. A utilitarian argument has no place here.

                          I'm saying that none of that matters. You cannot justify robbing someone with giving the money to charity later. You cannot justify murdering someone if their children will turn out better. You cannot justify cutting off someone's hand against their will if it makes their hand stop hurting. You cannot justify institutional racism with improved patient outcomes.
                           
                          • Like
                          Reactions: 4 users
                          About the Ads

                          UMU1030

                          Full Member
                          7+ Year Member
                          Jan 21, 2012
                          88
                          41
                            I'll just leave this here. Try to think about it in the context of healthcare shortages that our country currently faces.
                            Screen shot 2014-01-31 at 5.22.14 PM.png
                            Screen shot 2014-01-31 at 5.59.32 PM.png
                            Screen shot 2014-01-31 at 5.19.42 PM.png

                            From amsa.org :

                            1. Racial and ethnic minorities comprise 26% of the total population of the United States, yet only roughly 6% of practicing physicians are Latino, African American and Native American.*
                            2. Under-represented minority (URM) faculty account for only about 4% of U.S. medical school faculty members, and approximately 20% of URM faculty is located at six schools-Howard University, Meharry Medical College, Morehouse School of Medicine, and the three Puerto Rican medical schools.*
                            3. Black physicians were found to practice in areas where the proportion of Black residents was nearly five times as high as where other physicians practice. Likewise, Hispanic physicians worked in communities with twice the proportion of Hispanic residents when compared to their non-Hispanic colleagues.*
                            4. Nearly half of patients seen by African American physicians and one-third of patients seen by Asian and Pacific Islander and Hispanic physicians are Medicaid or uninsured patients.*
                            5. URM physicians are also more likely than their non-minority counterparts to conduct research to help reduce racial disparities in health care.*
                            * For more information, see Minorities in Medical Education: Facts and Figures 2005, a publication of The Division of Community and Minority Programs, AAMC, for students, medical educators, and policy makers that provides detailed racial and ethnic statistical information on medical education in the U.S. Additionally, Facts and Figures contains data related to the pre-college part of the education pipeline leading to the M.D. degree, medical school graduates, and medical school faculty, as well as data from the 2000 U.S. Census.
                             
                            • Like
                            Reactions: 7 users

                            Mad Jack

                            Critically Caring
                            7+ Year Member
                            Jul 27, 2013
                            37,351
                            72,388
                            4th Dimension
                              The bolded point was never in question. You're right. It's a sound utilitarian argument. A utilitarian argument has no place here.

                              I'm saying that none of that matters. You cannot justify robbing someone with giving the money to charity later. You cannot justify murdering someone if their children will turn out better. You cannot justify cutting off someone's hand against their will if it makes their hand stop hurting. You cannot justify institutional racism with improved patient outcomes.
                              What you believe is not justifiable, I believe to be justifiable, as do most medical admission committees. URM physicians are more likely to actually serve those that are currently in underserved areas, as well as providing better outcomes and greater satisfaction among the underserved population that they are more likely to treat. The institution of medicine is one of health, not of justice. Significantly improved healthcare for those that currently lack providers is entirely worth keeping current admission policies in place.
                               
                              • Like
                              Reactions: 1 users

                              NuttyEngDude

                              Red-Flagville
                              10+ Year Member
                              Oct 28, 2010
                              2,319
                              629
                              1. Resident [Any Field]
                                Yeah good graphs from UMU1030, also this is a good article from 2004:

                                http://www.amednews.com/article/20040112/profession/301129960/7/]
                                Patients say best doctors are ones who look like them
                                If you're black or white, patients who share your race will leave your office feeling more satisfied with the encounter.

                                You also will likely spend an average of two minutes longer with same-race patients, who will rate you as more participatory than physicians of another race.

                                ...........

                                Patients with same-race doctors were more satisfied with the visit, said their physicians were more participatory and were more likely to recommend the physician to a friend.

                                Increasing the number of minority physicians would improve health care experiences for minority patients, said the study, "Patient-Centered Communication, Ratings of Care, and Concordance of Patient and Physician Race." Some health leaders point to "cultural competence" as another remedy, one touted by some medical groups as a way to sensitize doctors to the needs of other racial and ethnic groups.

                                "Cultural competency should be one of our core competencies in medical school, right up there with taking blood, reading an ECG and taking a thorough patient history," said Anne C. Beal, MD, senior program officer for quality of care for underserved populations at the New York-based Commonwealth Fund, a private foundation that supports health research.

                                Physicians should examine their own attitudes and make an extra effort to learn more about patients with different backgrounds, doctors said.

                                "It's imperative that physicians who are not part of a minority community be actively involved in trying to better communicate with patients," said Willarda V. Edwards, MD, a Baltimore internist and board chair of the National Medical Assn., which represents black physicians.
                                 

                                NuttyEngDude

                                Red-Flagville
                                10+ Year Member
                                Oct 28, 2010
                                2,319
                                629
                                1. Resident [Any Field]

                                  UMU1030

                                  Full Member
                                  7+ Year Member
                                  Jan 21, 2012
                                  88
                                  41
                                    There are some really, really amazing graphs in this.

                                    Indeed, very interesting. I especially liked the school specific data. Here's an interesting calculation I made: nearly 19% of the Black or African American matriculants (212 out of 1129) matriculated to historically black medical schools (Howard University, Meharry Medical College, Morehouse School of Medicine) and nearly 22% of Hispanic or Latino matriculants (290 out of 1336) matriculated to the four Puerto Rican schools.
                                    Also all three of those traditionally black schools received a huge number of applications from Asian students. Howard University actually had more Asian applicants than African American applicants.
                                     
                                    About the Ads

                                    plumazul

                                    ☮, ♥, & ♫
                                    7+ Year Member
                                    Dec 15, 2011
                                    1,919
                                    577
                                    1. MD/PhD Student
                                      The bolded point was never in question. You're right. It's a sound utilitarian argument. A utilitarian argument has no place here.

                                      I'm saying that none of that matters. You cannot justify robbing someone with giving the money to charity later. You cannot justify murdering someone if their children will turn out better. You cannot justify cutting off someone's hand against their will if it makes their hand stop hurting. You cannot justify institutional racism with improved patient outcomes.

                                      :wtf:
                                       

                                      Pacna

                                      Dyslexics, untie!
                                      7+ Year Member
                                      Jun 2, 2013
                                      2,001
                                      2,344
                                      MN
                                      1. Medical Student
                                        What you believe is not justifiable, I believe to be justifiable, as do most medical admission committees. URM physicians are more likely to actually serve those that are currently in underserved areas, as well as providing better outcomes and greater satisfaction among the underserved population that they are more likely to treat. The institution of medicine is one of health, not of justice. Significantly improved healthcare for those that currently lack providers is entirely worth keeping current admission policies in place.

                                        It has nothing to do with what I believe. Morality is not subjective. You can believe slavery is moral all you like; it isn't. You can believe that vaccines cause autism; they don't. Any number of people can believe any number of things that are not true. That has no bearing on what is true.

                                        Might does not make right. Just because ADCOMs hold the power and the majority does not make them right. There was a time where the majority of people supported slavery, and some of that reason was utilitarian.

                                        You can make the defense for any field you like "We're not philosophers. We're just cotton farmers." "We're not philosophers. We're just soldiers." "We're not philosophers. We just transport anything across the Atlantic that needs transporting." "We're not philosophers. We're just doctors." None of that protects you from the moral implications of what you choose.
                                         
                                        • Like
                                        Reactions: 2 users

                                        Mad Jack

                                        Critically Caring
                                        7+ Year Member
                                        Jul 27, 2013
                                        37,351
                                        72,388
                                        4th Dimension
                                          It has nothing to do with what I believe. Morality is not subjective. You can believe slavery is moral all you like; it isn't. You can believe that vaccines cause autism; they don't. Any number of people can believe any number of things that are not true. That has no bearing on what is true.

                                          Might does not make right. Just because ADCOMs hold the power and the majority does not make them right. There was a time where the majority of people supported slavery, and some of that reason was utilitarian.

                                          You can make the defense for any field you like "We're not philosophers. We're just cotton farmers." "We're not philosophers. We're just soldiers." "We're not philosophers. We just transport anything across the Atlantic that needs transporting." "We're not philosophers. We're just doctors." None of that protects you from the moral implications of what you choose.
                                          You're left with choosing to let people suffer poorer health and die earlier in order to have a system that is only based on objective numbers, or a system that improves outcomes and saves lives while sacrificing the chance of more qualified but less effective physicians from ever practicing medicine. I choose the health of millions over the careers of thousands. An moral evil is committed either way in this scenario, you just need to pick that evil. Do you want equal opportunity and poorer outcomes or unequal opportunity and greater health outcomes? Given that we are in the business of health, the answer seems pretty clear to me.
                                           

                                          Pacna

                                          Dyslexics, untie!
                                          7+ Year Member
                                          Jun 2, 2013
                                          2,001
                                          2,344
                                          MN
                                          1. Medical Student
                                            You're left with choosing to let people suffer poorer health and die earlier in order to have a system that is only based on objective numbers, or a system that improves outcomes and saves lives while sacrificing the chance of more qualified but less effective physicians from ever practicing medicine. I choose the health of millions over the careers of thousands. An moral evil is committed either way in this scenario, you just need to pick that evil. Do you want equal opportunity and poorer outcomes or unequal opportunity and greater health outcomes? Given that we are in the business of health, the answer seems pretty clear to me.

                                            "Would you rather hundreds of thousands go shirtless and perhaps freeze in the cold or do you want the cotton to be picked?! It's too bad that it has to be slaves picking the cotton, but it's the lesser of two evils!" <-- all I hear from you right now.

                                            I don't know how that need will be fulfilled. If I had told people in the 1850s that we don't have to worry about how the cotton will be picked because we'll invent giant robots which run on crushed dinosaur juice, grab the cotton with metal hands, and shoot shirts out the back, they'd say "that's not a solution. You're just making shi* up!" But that's exactly what we did! Clinging to an immoral solution is indefensible.

                                            You're suggesting that people will just start dropping like flies if ADCOMs stop taking race into account. Do you think that ADCOMs are racist? Do you think that no black, hispanic, Native American, or other URMs will get into med school without this?

                                            You're suggesting some doomsday scenario which has no basis. We're talking about percentage differences in the single digits. URMs do not need a handicap. They are not inferior.
                                             
                                            • Like
                                            Reactions: 1 user

                                            UMU1030

                                            Full Member
                                            7+ Year Member
                                            Jan 21, 2012
                                            88
                                            41
                                              There is no need to speak figuratively and make wild comparisons to other historical events.

                                              The medical school admission process is not about finding the applicants with the greatest scholastic achievements, it's about finding the applicants that are most likely to meet the healthcare needs of America. As far as I understand, med schools look for individuals who will make good doctors, not just good medical students.
                                               
                                              • Like
                                              Reactions: 6 users

                                              QuinnTheEskimo

                                              Full Member
                                              Jan 9, 2014
                                              650
                                              637
                                              1. Pre-Medical
                                                How about getting nagged by a male physician for YEARS, without fail, about how it really isn't responsible to be sexually active and not use birth control? Every time we have a nice conversation about how my lesbian lifestyle is all the birth control I need, then my physician proceeds to ask whether I am SURE that I won't be sleeping with men soon and whether I wouldn't feel more safe/responsible/on top of things if I was on the pill just in case....

                                                Him: but what if you're at a frat party in Boston and things get out of hand?

                                                lol

                                                Off topic, but he's probably saying that because he's SEEN this stuff happen before.

                                                I used to work in an ER. We had a patient come in once -- late 30something, upper-middle-class, professional woman. Her complaint was "stomach pain." The doctor wanted to order a pregnancy test before the scans. She refused, she said there NO WAY she could be pregnant, she had been in a committed lesbian relationship for the past several years.

                                                Well, guess what the scans showed? That's right -- a tiny little fetus skeleton.

                                                Apparently she'd been "overserved" at a holiday party several months back, and had a quick and dirty one-night-stand with a male acquaintance.

                                                Moral: Even gay patients can get pregnant.
                                                 

                                                QuinnTheEskimo

                                                Full Member
                                                Jan 9, 2014
                                                650
                                                637
                                                1. Pre-Medical
                                                  You're suggesting that people will just start dropping like flies if ADCOMs stop taking race into account. Do you think that ADCOMs are racist? Do you think that no black, hispanic, Native American, or other URMs will get into med school without this?

                                                  You're suggesting some doomsday scenario which has no basis. We're talking about percentage differences in the single digits. URMs do not need a handicap. They are not inferior.

                                                  This is a very important point that has not yet been addressed in this thread. To all of you who believe in lowering academic standards for URM applicants: why? do you believe URMs are somehow incapable of achieving the same level of academic success as white and Asian students?
                                                   

                                                  ChemEngMD

                                                  No need to hide behind private profiles
                                                  10+ Year Member
                                                  Nov 24, 2008
                                                  2,175
                                                  1,550
                                                  1. Medical Student
                                                    "Would you rather hundreds of thousands go shirtless and perhaps freeze in the cold or do you want the cotton to be picked?! It's too bad that it has to be slaves picking the cotton, but it's the lesser of two evils!" <-- all I hear from you right now.

                                                    I don't know how that need will be fulfilled. If I had told people in the 1850s that we don't have to worry about how the cotton will be picked because we'll invent giant robots which run on crushed dinosaur juice, grab the cotton with metal hands, and shoot shirts out the back, they'd say "that's not a solution. You're just making shi* up!" But that's exactly what we did! Clinging to an immoral solution is indefensible.

                                                    You're suggesting that people will just start dropping like flies if ADCOMs stop taking race into account. Do you think that ADCOMs are racist? Do you think that no black, hispanic, Native American, or other URMs will get into med school without this?

                                                    You're suggesting some doomsday scenario which has no basis. We're talking about percentage differences in the single digits. URMs do not need a handicap. They are not inferior.

                                                    We don't need doctors with the top GPAs and MCAT scores...we need doctors that will go into underserved areas and provide healthcare.

                                                    If you look at those great graphs from the AAMC (official data mind you) Black, Native American, and Latino medical students were the students most planning on going to work in underserved areas.

                                                    There is no data anywhere that says that allowing in students with the highest grades is going to produce physicians that work in underserved areas, but there is conclusive evidence taken by the AAMC 3 times over an 11 year period that shows that URM doctors are going to work in those areas.

                                                    Why would you ignore this fact?


                                                    ...and if you had spent any significant time in underserved urban or rural areas in a healthcare setting you would probably think we were in a doomsday scenario already. The fact that some zipcodes in this country have the same life expectancy as developing countries is appalling and incredibly serious. We HAVE to fix this and the physicians of tomorrow HAVE to do it.

                                                    54.6% of Black applicants said they are going to go work in those areas....19.4% Asian and 21.4% of White said they are going to. The evidence is pretty conclusive that admitting more URMs is going to make more of an impact on getting physicians into those areas.

                                                    This is NOT about providing "handicaps" for certain applicants. It's about training more URM physicians -- and in order to train them, you have to accept them. If there aren't enough of them with 3.8+ and 35+ then Adcoms need to start looking a little lower (statistically speaking) in the applicant pool.
                                                     
                                                    • Like
                                                    Reactions: 1 user

                                                    ChemEngMD

                                                    No need to hide behind private profiles
                                                    10+ Year Member
                                                    Nov 24, 2008
                                                    2,175
                                                    1,550
                                                    1. Medical Student
                                                      This is a very important point that has not yet been addressed in this thread. To all of you who believe in lowering academic standards for URM applicants: why? do you believe URMs are somehow incapable of achieving the same level of academic success as white and Asian students?

                                                      I addressed it on the first page. There are simply not enough URM applicants. If there was a large group of URM applicants with 3.8+ and 35+ statistics then there wouldn't be nearly as many URMs getting in with 3.3 and 28.

                                                      For a variety of reasons that I have also laid out in this thread, URMs have a much tougher time even making it to the point where we are applying to medical school. The pool is limited so Adcoms have to dig deeper into the pool.

                                                      @LizzyM already stated that anyone with a 26 MCAT and 3.3 GPA is academically capable of succeeding in medical school. Anything above that is splitting academic hairs.

                                                      Anyone above that level is CAPABLE -- then it comes down to other attributes in order to address the healthcare needs of this country.
                                                       

                                                      QuinnTheEskimo

                                                      Full Member
                                                      Jan 9, 2014
                                                      650
                                                      637
                                                      1. Pre-Medical
                                                        I addressed it on the first page. There are simply not enough URM applicants. If there was a large group of URM applicants with 3.8+ and 35+ statistics then there wouldn't be nearly as many URMs getting in with 3.3 and 28.

                                                        For a variety of reasons that I have also laid out in this thread, URMs have a much tougher time even making it to the point where we are applying to medical school. The pool is limited so Adcoms have to dig deeper into the pool.

                                                        @LizzyM already stated that anyone with a 26 MCAT and 3.3 GPA is academically capable of succeeding in medical school. Anything above that is a moot point.

                                                        Anyone above that level is capable -- then it comes down to other attributes in order to address the healthcare needs of this country.

                                                        So why not make the MCAT pass/fail? Why not just assign a "Pass" to anything over the equivalent of a 26? Why look at grades and MCAT scores at all?

                                                        That argument is ridiculous, and LizzyM herself knows it's ridiculous. When she sees a white or Asian applicant with a 3.3 GPA and a 26 MCAT, she throws that file in the trash.

                                                        BTW -- the MEAN MCAT for black matriculants is a 26, indicating a large proportion of black matriculants do, in fact, lack the basic science knowledge to succeed in medical school. The Asian mean is 32.3, more than ONE STANDARD DEVIATION above the black mean. Note that the attrition rate for black students is 8-9 times greater than the attrition rate for white and Asian students.

                                                        Something is wrong here. Something needs to change, and the problem cannot be fixed by relaxing the standards for medical school admissions. It's too little, too late.
                                                         
                                                        • Like
                                                        Reactions: 3 users
                                                        About the Ads

                                                        MDforMee

                                                        Sweet Cheeks
                                                        Aug 29, 2012
                                                        790
                                                        149
                                                        1. Pre-Medical
                                                          We don't need doctors with the top GPAs and MCAT scores...we need doctors that will go into underserved areas and provide healthcare.

                                                          If you look at those great graphs from the AAMC (official data mind you) Black, Native American, and Latino medical students were the students most planning on going to work in underserved areas.

                                                          There is no data anywhere that says that allowing in students with the highest grades is going to produce physicians that work in underserved areas, but there is conclusive evidence taken by the AAMC 3 times over an 11 year period that shows that URM doctors are going to work in those areas.

                                                          Why would you ignore this fact?


                                                          ...and if you had spent any significant time in underserved urban or rural areas in a healthcare setting you would probably think we were in a doomsday scenario already. The fact that some zipcodes in this country have the same life expectancy as developing countries is appalling and incredibly serious. We HAVE to fix this and the physicians of tomorrow HAVE to do it.

                                                          54.6% of Black applicants said they are going to go work in those areas....19.4% Asian and 21.4% of White said they are going to. The evidence is pretty conclusive that admitting more URMs is going to make more of an impact on getting physicians into those areas.

                                                          This is NOT about providing "handicaps" for certain applicants. It's about training more URM physicians -- and in order to train them, you have to accept them. If there aren't enough of them with 3.8+ and 35+ then Adcoms need to start looking a little lower (statistically speaking) in the applicant pool.

                                                          You and I haven't always seen eye to eye, ChemEng; Quinn, I know that you don't really like me, either.

                                                          But, the way I see it, we're the three people in this thread that everyone else is tired of.

                                                          If we can't get along, I think that we should stop participating.

                                                          I'll start by saying one positive thing about each of you, hoping that maybe you two follow along.

                                                          ChemEng, you make a good point about URMs going back to practice in undeserved communities. Personally, I'd like to know more about why osteopathic medical schools aren't viable options for otherwise rejected URM candidates.

                                                          Quinn, you know that the system is designed as a meritocracy, and you seem like you're aware that it takes hard work and dedication to succeed in applying to medical school.

                                                          There, isn't that better?
                                                           

                                                          ChemEngMD

                                                          No need to hide behind private profiles
                                                          10+ Year Member
                                                          Nov 24, 2008
                                                          2,175
                                                          1,550
                                                          1. Medical Student
                                                            Looking at the AAMC grids....for applicants with a 3.6 and 33 (LizzyM of 69) and above over a 3 year period:

                                                            White Applicants: 11,851 applicants (14.75% of the applicant pool)
                                                            Asian Applicants: 5,408 applicants (18.43% of the applicant pool)
                                                            URM Applicants: 835 applicants (3.94% of the applicant pool)

                                                            If only 3.94% of the URM applicant pool is above a LizzyM of 69 then OBVIOUSLY they have to dig deeper into the pool to find URM candidates.

                                                            That's 278 URM applicants per year at that score.

                                                            That is not even going to make a dent in the health disparities in this country. So they dig deeper into the pool.


                                                            https://www.aamc.org/download/321520/data/2012factstable25-5.pdf
                                                            https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/2012factstable25-3.pdf
                                                            https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf
                                                             

                                                            StBernardsRule

                                                            Full Member
                                                            10+ Year Member
                                                            Mar 17, 2011
                                                            191
                                                            113
                                                            1. Medical Student
                                                              54.6% of Black applicants said they are going to go work in those areas....19.4% Asian and 21.4% of White said they are going to. The evidence is pretty conclusive that admitting more URMs is going to make more of an impact on getting physicians into those areas.

                                                              This is NOT about providing "handicaps" for certain applicants. It's about training more URM physicians -- and in order to train them, you have to accept them. If there aren't enough of them with 3.8+ and 35+ then Adcoms need to start looking a little lower (statistically speaking) in the applicant pool.

                                                              Do you think Asians who say they want to work in undeserved communities should be given the same boost (let's assume they even have volunteering experience as well)? If so, I'd bet a lot of money Asians would quickly say exactly that and have the volunteer experience to back it up.

                                                              If you not think Asians who have this volunteer experience should be given the same boost, why is it ok to stereotype Asians? Since most Asians don't want to go to undeserved communities, it's ok to assume an Asian who says he does (and has the volunteer experience to back it up) is less likely to?
                                                               
                                                              • Like
                                                              Reactions: 3 users

                                                              StBernardsRule

                                                              Full Member
                                                              10+ Year Member
                                                              Mar 17, 2011
                                                              191
                                                              113
                                                              1. Medical Student
                                                                I love how some people here have basically said that we don't have white people only go to white doctors because that's racist. Yes it's racist and yes it happens all the time. What am I supposed to say when a patient calls and says they don't want to see any of those Indian doctors? Tough titty?

                                                                This would be like me saying "I love how people here have basically said let's have institutionalized racism because some people like there doctor to be the same skin color as them!"

                                                                This is an important issue and straw man arguments don't help. Even if you disagree with some posters in this thread it's pretty easy to understand why they might take the position they're taking (and this applies to both sides IMHO).
                                                                 
                                                                • Like
                                                                Reactions: 1 users

                                                                NuttyEngDude

                                                                Red-Flagville
                                                                10+ Year Member
                                                                Oct 28, 2010
                                                                2,319
                                                                629
                                                                1. Resident [Any Field]
                                                                  You and I haven't always seen eye to eye, ChemEng; Quinn, I know that you don't really like me, either.

                                                                  But, the way I see it, we're the three people in this thread that everyone else is tired of.
                                                                  I like all three of you. :D Look there's nothing wrong with having a different opinion so dont feel bad. You ruffled a few feathers but then you apologized, I can't believe you can be faulted for that.

                                                                  Do you think Asians who say they want to work in undeserved communities should be given the same boost (let's assume they even have volunteering experience as well)? If so, I'd bet a lot of money Asians would quickly say exactly that and have the volunteer experience to back it up.
                                                                  I think if they have the volunteer experience AND the LOR to back it up they would be given a boost. I dont think they would be penalized on race in this instance. Much of this depends on the mission of the school. Ie. if the school doesnt care about serving underserved communities and only wants to be a research powerhouse, it might not matter. If asians are stereotyped such that they are viewed not to do this, then the asian in question would ironically stand out, you know what I mean?
                                                                   
                                                                  • Like
                                                                  Reactions: 1 user

                                                                  ChemEngMD

                                                                  No need to hide behind private profiles
                                                                  10+ Year Member
                                                                  Nov 24, 2008
                                                                  2,175
                                                                  1,550
                                                                  1. Medical Student
                                                                    Do you think Asians who say they want to work in undeserved communities should be given the same boost (let's assume they even have volunteering experience as well)? If so, I'd bet a lot of money Asians would quickly say exactly that and have the volunteer experience to back it up.

                                                                    If you not think Asians who have this volunteer experience should be given the same boost, why is it ok to stereotype Asians? Since most Asians don't want to go to undeserved communities, it's ok to assume an Asian who says he does (and has the volunteer experience to back it up) is less likely to?

                                                                    I think the biggest difference is that these graphs are polls of students on their way out of medical school. This isn't intention at the interview point, this is intention as they leave to go to residency -- I think it's a bit more significant than trying to ask people during the interview their intention.

                                                                    However, I do feel that ANY applicant of ANY race who has a genuine, sustained community service background with LORs and long-term volunteerism to prove it is going to be looked at favorably by an Adcom. I sincerely doubt that they are going to look at an Asian or White applicant with that background and think that they are being dishonest.

                                                                    I'm not talking about I volunteered at a homeless shelter 2 Saturdays a month for a semester. I mean for the last 3+ years I have been entrenched in community work in underserved communities. That is going to say volumes to an Adcom IMO.
                                                                     

                                                                    StBernardsRule

                                                                    Full Member
                                                                    10+ Year Member
                                                                    Mar 17, 2011
                                                                    191
                                                                    113
                                                                    1. Medical Student
                                                                      I think if they have the volunteer experience AND the LOR to back it up they would be given a boost. I dont think they would be penalized on race in this instance. Much of this depends on the mission of the school. Ie. if the school doesnt care about serving underserved communities and only wants to be a research powerhouse, it might not matter. If asians are stereotyped such that they are viewed not to do this, then the asian in question would ironically stand out, you know what I mean?

                                                                      "Same boost" is key though. I have no doubt that anyone will benefit from volunteering in an undeserved community (from my experience it's actually really fun, too), but do you really think an Asian who does is going to start getting acceptances with a 3.4 GPA 26 MCAT? From the many people I know who fall in this category (whether they be white, Indian, Chinese, etc) the answer is a resounding "no."
                                                                       
                                                                      • Like
                                                                      Reactions: 1 users

                                                                      MangoPlant

                                                                      Full Member
                                                                      Jul 27, 2012
                                                                      383
                                                                      157
                                                                        We don't need doctors with the top GPAs and MCAT scores...we need doctors that will go into underserved areas and provide healthcare.


                                                                        54.6% of Black applicants said they are going to go work in those areas....19.4% Asian and 21.4% of White said they are going to. The evidence is pretty conclusive that admitting more URMs is going to make more of an impact on getting physicians into those areas.

                                                                        So because a person is a member of a group (Asian) that is "less likely" to volunteer in an undeserved area they should be given a disadvantage.

                                                                        Should blacks be given a disadvantage since they are members of a group that is more likely to end up in jail?
                                                                         
                                                                        • Like
                                                                        Reactions: 1 users

                                                                        crimsonkid85

                                                                        Full Member
                                                                        10+ Year Member
                                                                        7+ Year Member
                                                                        Jul 3, 2006
                                                                        792
                                                                        223
                                                                        1. MD/PhD Student
                                                                          Does anyone else not notice the huge problem with the blanket statement that URM's plan to go into primary care?

                                                                          #1. Since when does 'plan to go into primary care' equate to actually going into primary care? I cannot tell you the number applicants who I interviewed who claimed in the interview "I want to do primary care" and then three years later try to match into plastics. Where is the data on who actually goes into primary care?
                                                                          #2. Let us not forget that applying to residency is every bit a function of what you WANT to go into as much as it is what you actually CAN get into. There is a plethora of data showing that Black and Hispanic URMs score ON AVERAGE (again, no claims about individual people) lower than their white and Asian counterparts. In other words, what function of Black/Hispanic physicians going into primary care is driven NOT by the fact that they WANT to go into primary care, but simply because they cannot match into Rad Onc, Plastics, Neurosurg, Ortho, Ophtho, etc?

                                                                          I am not actually trying to be incendiary, but has truly no one thought about this explanation?


                                                                          I'll just leave this here. Try to think about it in the context of healthcare shortages that our country currently faces.
                                                                          View attachment 178088 View attachment 178089 View attachment 178090
                                                                          From amsa.org :

                                                                          1. Racial and ethnic minorities comprise 26% of the total population of the United States, yet only roughly 6% of practicing physicians are Latino, African American and Native American.*
                                                                          2. Under-represented minority (URM) faculty account for only about 4% of U.S. medical school faculty members, and approximately 20% of URM faculty is located at six schools-Howard University, Meharry Medical College, Morehouse School of Medicine, and the three Puerto Rican medical schools.*
                                                                          3. Black physicians were found to practice in areas where the proportion of Black residents was nearly five times as high as where other physicians practice. Likewise, Hispanic physicians worked in communities with twice the proportion of Hispanic residents when compared to their non-Hispanic colleagues.*
                                                                          4. Nearly half of patients seen by African American physicians and one-third of patients seen by Asian and Pacific Islander and Hispanic physicians are Medicaid or uninsured patients.*
                                                                          5. URM physicians are also more likely than their non-minority counterparts to conduct research to help reduce racial disparities in health care.*
                                                                          * For more information, see Minorities in Medical Education: Facts and Figures 2005, a publication of The Division of Community and Minority Programs, AAMC, for students, medical educators, and policy makers that provides detailed racial and ethnic statistical information on medical education in the U.S. Additionally, Facts and Figures contains data related to the pre-college part of the education pipeline leading to the M.D. degree, medical school graduates, and medical school faculty, as well as data from the 2000 U.S. Census.
                                                                           
                                                                          • Like
                                                                          Reactions: 5 users

                                                                          StBernardsRule

                                                                          Full Member
                                                                          10+ Year Member
                                                                          Mar 17, 2011
                                                                          191
                                                                          113
                                                                          1. Medical Student
                                                                            Chem I genuinely appreciate your response, but I feel like you've kind of danced around my question a bit.

                                                                            I think the biggest difference is that these graphs are polls of students on their way out of medical school. This isn't intention at the interview point, this is intention as they leave to go to residency -- I think it's a bit more significant than trying to ask people during the interview their intention.

                                                                            So are you saying it is ok to stereotype then because the data shows that most Asians who leave medical school are less likely to serve undeserved communities than African Americans? For what it's worth, I'm actually fine if you say "yes" as I wouldn't lose any respect for someone who holds this opinion (though I don't agree with it). I'd just prefer people to own it.

                                                                            However, I do feel that ANY applicant of ANY race who has a genuine, sustained community service background with LORs and long-term volunteerism to prove it is going to be looked at favorably by an Adcom. I sincerely doubt that they are going to look at an Asian or White applicant with that background and think that they are being dishonest.

                                                                            I'm not talking about I volunteered at a homeless shelter 2 Saturdays a month for a semester. I mean for the last 3+ years I have been entrenched in community work in underserved communities. That is going to say volumes to an Adcom IMO.

                                                                            Fair enough, but should they get the **same** boost. That's what's so key. I can't imagine anyone would argue they wouldn't get some boost, but will it be near the advantage of the URM boost (which is worth probably 8-10 MCAT points relative to being Asian?).

                                                                            Keep in mind that if there was anything an applicant could do to get them the equivalent of the URM boost, then it'd almost immediately become mandatory to get into medical school. Nearly every single Asian applicant would volunteer in an undeserved area as those that did not would have no chance.
                                                                             
                                                                            Last edited:
                                                                            • Like
                                                                            Reactions: 1 user

                                                                            UMU1030

                                                                            Full Member
                                                                            7+ Year Member
                                                                            Jan 21, 2012
                                                                            88
                                                                            41
                                                                              Do you think Asians who say they want to work in undeserved communities should be given the same boost (let's assume they even have volunteering experience as well)? If so, I'd bet a lot of money Asians would quickly say exactly that and have the volunteer experience to back it up.

                                                                              If you not think Asians who have this volunteer experience should be given the same boost, why is it ok to stereotype Asians? Since most Asians don't want to go to undeserved communities, it's ok to assume an Asian who says he does (and has the volunteer experience to back it up) is less likely to?

                                                                              I know the question is not for me, but I do think an Asian applicant should be given the same boost if he or she is applying to a school or program with a mission of helping underserved communities and has a genuine interest in that mission. I applied for one of these programs programs and the only other applicant from our interview group was an Indian student who genuinely seemed interested in rural medicine. He grew up in a rural area and was involved in his community. We had some time to talk and I learned that he also applied DO, in part because DO schools also have a mission of targeting underserved communities. I really hope he was also accepted because I could tell that this was not just an act he put on to get an advantage. In my opinion, applying DO really added to his credibility and having gone on many DO interviews I can tell you how rare Asian interviewees are (with the exception of the Florida DO programs). Some Indian students will choose to go Caribbean instead of DO because of some unapparent DO stigma. Which is why a Ross University graduation can also be called "March of the Patels" (my apologies to all Patels for this joke).
                                                                               

                                                                              MangoPlant

                                                                              Full Member
                                                                              Jul 27, 2012
                                                                              383
                                                                              157
                                                                                Also I'm curious. How do these adcoms decide whether an applicant is "being pushed into medicine by his/her parents." There are absolute measures of "passion for medicine" like volunteering, service work, clinical experience, etc. If an adcom sees an applicant with less volunteering almost no service work and no clinical experience, then fine - you can argue that that applicant is not passionate about medicine. However, no one has posted data showing that Asians have less volunteering, service work, and clinical experiences than their white and black counterparts. Therefore the argument that Asians are "pushed into medicine by parents" is based only on stereotypes and LizzyM's anecdotal experience of Asians being "more likely to test positive for external influences." This highly subjective 'test' probably consists of asking questions instead of looking at objective data like volunteering, clinical experience, etc and that 'test' is also probably subject to any subconscious biases toward Asian applicants.
                                                                                 
                                                                                • Like
                                                                                Reactions: 1 users

                                                                                ChemEngMD

                                                                                No need to hide behind private profiles
                                                                                10+ Year Member
                                                                                Nov 24, 2008
                                                                                2,175
                                                                                1,550
                                                                                1. Medical Student
                                                                                  Does anyone else not notice the huge problem with the blanket statement that URM's plan to go into primary care?

                                                                                  #1. Since when does 'plan to go into primary care' equate to actually going into primary care? I cannot tell you the number applicants who I interviewed who claimed in the interview "I want to do primary care" and then three years later try to match into plastics. Where is the data on who actually goes into primary care?
                                                                                  #2. Let us not forget that applying to residency is every bit a function of what you WANT to go into as much as it is what you actually CAN get into. There is a plethora of data showing that Black and Hispanic URMs score ON AVERAGE (again, no claims about individual people) lower than their white and Asian counterparts. In other words, what function of Black/Hispanic physicians going into primary care is driven NOT by the fact that they WANT to go into primary care, but simply because they cannot match into Rad Onc, Plastics, Neurosurg, Ortho, Ophtho, etc?

                                                                                  I am not actually trying to be incendiary, but has truly no one thought about this explanation?

                                                                                  #1 These are not matriculants, these are people who are on their way OUT of medical school.
                                                                                   

                                                                                  StBernardsRule

                                                                                  Full Member
                                                                                  10+ Year Member
                                                                                  Mar 17, 2011
                                                                                  191
                                                                                  113
                                                                                  1. Medical Student
                                                                                    Should blacks be given a disadvantage since they are members of a group that is more likely to end up in jail?

                                                                                    You guys really need to understand that making points like this only weakens your argument and makes it less likely someone is going to take you seriously. It sucks when you mostly agree with someone (say we both agree discriminating based on race is wrong) and then you see them try to make points like this :(
                                                                                     
                                                                                    • Like
                                                                                    Reactions: 1 user

                                                                                    crimsonkid85

                                                                                    Full Member
                                                                                    10+ Year Member
                                                                                    7+ Year Member
                                                                                    Jul 3, 2006
                                                                                    792
                                                                                    223
                                                                                    1. MD/PhD Student
                                                                                      A few years ago, at an admissions committee meeting, an Asian applicant with an MCAT of 41, publications, volunteer experience, shadowing experience, was rejected in favor of a URM with a 27 MCAT.

                                                                                      I go to a top 3 medical school. I almost walked out of the committee meeting, I was so in favor of accepting the Asian applicant*. I am proud to say that almost half the faculty were just as enraged as me after that vote.

                                                                                      *Full disclosure, I am Asian.

                                                                                      Fair enough, but should they get the **same** boost. That's what's so key. I can't imagine anyone would argue they wouldn't get some boost, but will it be near the advantage of the URM boost (which is worth probably 8-10 MCAT points relative to being Asian?).
                                                                                       
                                                                                      • Like
                                                                                      Reactions: 4 users

                                                                                      MangoPlant

                                                                                      Full Member
                                                                                      Jul 27, 2012
                                                                                      383
                                                                                      157
                                                                                        You guys really need to understand that making points like this only weakens your argument and makes it less likely someone is going to take you seriously. It sucks when you mostly agree with someone (say we both agree discriminating based on race is wrong) and then you see them try to make points like this :(

                                                                                        That was not a serious question... I was giving an example of how stupid it is to give someone an advantage/disadvantage because they are members of a certain group.
                                                                                         
                                                                                        • Like
                                                                                        Reactions: 1 user
                                                                                        About the Ads
                                                                                        This thread is more than 3 years old.

                                                                                        Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

                                                                                        1. Your new thread title is very short, and likely is unhelpful.
                                                                                        2. Your reply is very short and likely does not add anything to the thread.
                                                                                        3. Your reply is very long and likely does not add anything to the thread.
                                                                                        4. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
                                                                                        5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
                                                                                        6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
                                                                                        7. This thread is locked.