Not mentioning ethnicity on applications - disadvantage?

[touchpause13]

Hey there,
Not sure how long ago this was, but I just went through a DO cycle and there were a large amount of asian interviwees at the schools I interviewed at. Perhaps this view has changed?

I second this. At my interviews it was all white people and Asians

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[SunsFun]

I am talking about lower expectations within the family. I have worked extensively in underserved communities, with Asian, Hispanic, and African-American people. Based on my observations, I can safely say that there are different academic expectations among different cultures.

I am not familiar with differences in expectations when it comes to URM vs. Asian families but this changes nothing even if it is so. Those URM kids still face fundamentally different challenges. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration?

 

[touchpause13]

Serious question.
Quinn were you born in this country? Or raised here?

 

[Mad Jack]

Excuse me? If anyone is the troll here, it's the posters claiming that all URM applicants were born in gang-riddled, drug-infested ghettos. I have many URM friends in medical school, and they are all from much wealthier families than I am from. You are stereotyping URMs.

I'm not saying all URMs have it bad, I'm just saying there are a lot of them that do, especially where I live. And I assure you, I am not full of **** about any details regarding my life. I troll in regard to many things, but never, ever my own past nor my career.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

I am not familiar with differences in expectations when it comes to URM vs. Asian families but this changes nothing even if it is so. Those URM kids still face fundamentally different challenges. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration?

I believe in personal responsibility. Society is not at fault for your 22 MCAT. You didn't study enough. End of story.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

I'm not saying all URMs have it bad, I'm just saying there are a lot of them that do, especially where I live. And I assure you, I am not full of **** about any details regarding my life. I troll in regard to many things, but never, ever my own past nor my career.

I don't deny this, but they are not the ones applying to medical school. We are talking about medical school admissions here.

 

[MangoPlant]

Rent an apartment in the North End of Hartford or the South side of Chicago for a month, work a minimum wage job, and take the bus everywhere you need to go. Then tell me the kids you saw have the same chance as somebody from an upper middle class neighborhood with two parents that weren't in prison or addicted to drugs, who didn't skip school because they were afraid of getting shot or stabbed, who got all the support financially and emotionally to go to college, and had extracurriculars and test prep paid for.

You wouldn't survive a year in the places some of these kids survived 18. That the most severely disadvantaged kids finish college at all is a miracle. Hell, there's some streets that just one kid surviving to 21 is a miracle around here. And you say, "Take some responsibility," add if it's their damn fault that they were born to a single mother with no job and have a father that is dead or in jail. Sure, Take some responsibility kid, go to school in the war zone with some of the worst teachers this country has to offer, with outdated books if you get any at all, and catch the **** up!

You don't know **** about what most of these places are like. I've lived in them for years of my life, and work in one to this day. The ignorance of people in the middle and upper class as to exactly how bad it is is astounding. But like I said, if you think I'm full of ****, go rent yourself a flat in the local ghetto for a month and live like the poor live, then get back to me.

All of the stuff you described is very true. Too bad it has nothing to do with being black or latino and everything to do with being POOR.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't deny this, but they are not the ones applying to medical school. We are talking about medical school admissions here.

My college was full of kids like this. Plenty of them were premed. Do they just not count for some reason?

 

[SunsFun]

I believe in personal responsibility. Society is not at fault for your 22 MCAT. You didn't study enough. End of story.

BTW, the difference in academic expectations between cultures is well-documented. Talk to any principal or teacher at an inner-city high school.

So it shouldn't because it is fundamentally their personal responsibility to perform on the level of others who have not faced the same challenges and arguably had it easier? Why do you think this is fair?

 

[crimsonkid85]

SunsFun -- you are absolutely right, I think everyone's life experience should be taken into consideration. In fact, I used to be known as a complete softie on the admissions committee when it came to accepting kids with weak stats but with a compelling story. As I served longer, however, I started seeing stats of students not doing well in medical school. Recently our school has started to specifically track applicant stats with performance after matriculation in medical school. It is by no means a close correlation, but there is some trend there -- that students with exceptionally weak application scores (I am talking <29 MCAT) do not score as highly on Step 1, nor do they perform as well on the wards as the rest of their peers, especially when compared to the highest percentiles of scorers (again, trends, not universally applicable).

Because of this realization, I found myself forced to weight the MCAT and GPA higher. It is true that these things might be more a function of SES, but if I help admit a student who is just not cut out to do well in medical school and who might be forced to fail out of school after pay two years of tuition -- have I helped this person? Or have I just set this person up for more failure and frustration?

I am not familiar with differences in expectations when it comes to URM vs. Asian families but this changes nothing even if it is so. Those URM kids still face fundamentally different challenges. Shouldn't that be taken into consideration?

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

My college was full of kids like this. Plenty of them were premed. Do they just not count for some reason?

I don't understand what your argument is. Here are a few thoughts:

1. MOST URMs applying to medical school are not extremely disadvantaged like the people you are describing. IF extremely disadvantaged individuals demonstrate adequate academic readiness, AND they are committed to returning and serving their community, should they be given a boost in admissions? Sure. That goes if they are white, black, Asian, whatever.

2. No matter what the circumstance, you need to do the best with what you are given and stop blaming society for your failures. When you botch a surgery and kill a patient, are you going to blame society for beating you down and making you **** up?

 

[Mad Jack]

All of the stuff you described is very true. Too bad it has nothing to do with being black or latino and everything to do with being POOR.

And there is absolutely no correlation between race and poverty whatsoever. My mistake.

I not saying all URM kids have a rough life, but a lot of them do, so you're probably going to see lower average scores that reflect that.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

So it shouldn't because it is fundamentally their personal responsibility to perform on the level of others who have not faced the same challenges and arguably had it easier? Why do you think this is fair?

Life isn't fair. Everyone has crosses to bear, some more so than others. Not everyone has the educational background or family/cultural support necessary to succeed in medical school.

Now, I do think there are certain cultural and educational issues that need to be fixed. But like CrimsonKid said, you are not doing anyone any favors by setting them up to fail.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't understand what your argument is. Here are a few thoughts:

1. MOST URMs applying to medical school are not extremely disadvantaged like the people you are describing. IF extremely disadvantaged individuals demonstrate adequate academic readiness, AND they are committed to returning and serving their community, should they be given a boost in admissions? Sure. That goes if they are white, black, Asian, whatever.

2. No matter what the circumstance, you need to do the best with what you are given and stop blaming society for your failures. When you botch a surgery and kill a patient, are you going to blame society for beating you down and making you **** up?

Dude, there's a big difference between not having a great GPA because you initially lacked the skills to do well in college secondary to not being provided with adequate preparation as a teenager and botching a surgery after 9 years of training in medical school and residency. Don't be silly.

 

[Mad Jack]

Life isn't fair. Everyone has crosses to bear, some more so than others. Not everyone has the educational background or family/cultural support necessary to succeed in medical school.

Now, I do think there are certain cultural and educational issues that need to be fixed. But like CrimsonKid said, you are not doing anyone any favors by setting them up to fail.

Maybe I just need to get it out there... I don't really care that the admission process screws well off kids. They had every opportunity, it's only natural that they should score better. As someone who was extremely disadvantaged, I find their tears delicious.

 

[SunsFun]

SunsFun -- you are absolutely right, I think everyone's life experience should be taken into consideration. In fact, I used to be known as a complete softie on the admissions committee when it came to accepting kids with weak stats but with a compelling story. As I served longer, however, I started seeing stats of students not doing well in medical school. Recently our school has started to specifically track applicant stats with performance after matriculation in medical school. It is by no means a close correlation, but there is some trend there -- that students with exceptionally weak application scores (I am talking <29 MCAT) do not score as highly on Step 1, nor do they perform as well on the wards as the rest of their peers, especially when compared to the highest percentiles of scorers (again, trends, not universally applicable).

Because of this realization, I found myself forced to weight the MCAT and GPA higher. It is true that these things might be more a function of SES, but if I help admit a student who is just not cut out to do well in medical school and who might be forced to fail out of school after pay two years of tuition -- have I helped this person? Or have I just set this person up for more failure and frustration?

This is a fair point of view. You're not doing anybody a favor admitting applicants who can't succeed academically. But assuming the applicants have all met some minimal standard, we can tolerate some MCAT/GPA disparities.

 

[MangoPlant]

And there is absolutely no correlation between race and poverty whatsoever. My mistake.

I not saying all URM kids have a rough life, but a lot of them do, so you're probably going to see lower average scores that reflect that.

I'm sure poor URM kids have a rough life just like how poor Asian kids have a rough life. But the system we have now screws over the poor Asian kids. I can see that you, like me, see that URMs on average have a lower SES than Asians, so why do you not like the idea of using SES instead of race? Using SES, if what you say is true, that URMs are on average at a lower SES, then they should still benefit the most from the SES based system. Only difference is that the poor Asian doesn't get screwed through such a system like he does now.

 

[SunsFun]

Life isn't fair. Everyone has crosses to bear, some more so than others. Not everyone has the educational background or family/cultural support necessary to succeed in medical school.

Now, I do think there are certain cultural and educational issues that need to be fixed. But like CrimsonKid said, you are not doing anyone any favors by setting them up to fail.

Don't you think "life isn't fair" is just another excuse by kids born with some privileges to keep things as they are, benefiting themselves? We cant rectify all the injustices but if both you and I recognize that distinct group of applicants is clearly at a disadvantage, why not try to make it at least somewhat more fair by helping them?

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Maybe I just need to get it out there... I don't really care that the admission process screws well off kids. They had every opportunity, it's only natural that they should score better. As someone who was extremely disadvantaged, I find their tears delicious.

The system doesn't really screw the well-off kids. The rich kids are the ones with the private high school, the Kaplan course, the 35+ MCAT and the high GPA. Plus dad's MD connections --> publications, LORs, shadowing, etc.

The system doesn't screw the URMs. There are relatively few of them applying, so the URMs only need 3.3 GPA and a 22+ MCAT, plus a "passion" for medicine (see LizzyM).

The system screws the poor Asian kids, who are expected to perform essentially at the same level as the well-off students.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm sure poor URM kids have a rough life just like how poor Asian kids have a rough life. But the system we have now screws over the poor Asian kids. I can see that you, like me, see that URMs on average have a lower SES than Asians, so why do you not like the idea of using SES instead of race? Using SES, if what you say is true, that URMs are on average at a lower SES, then they should still benefit the most from the SES based system. Only difference is that the poor Asian doesn't get screwed through such a system like he does now.

SES is often weighted into decisions. Not nearly as heavily as race, but it is.

 

[Mad Jack]

The system doesn't really screw the well-off kids. The rich kids are the ones with the private high school, the Kaplan course, the 35+ MCAT and the high GPA. Plus dad's MD connections --> publications, LORs, shadowing, etc.

The system doesn't screw the URMs. There are relatively few of them applying, so the URMs only need 3.3 GPA and a 22+ MCAT, plus a "passion" for medicine (see LizzyM).

The system screws the poor Asian kids, who are expected to perform essentially at the same level as the well-off students.

Not a whole lot of Asians are losing their seats to blacks or Latinos. They make up an extremely small portion of the applicant pool.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Not a whole lot of Asians are losing their seats to blacks or Latinos. They make up an extremely small portion of the applicant pool.

The point is, the URM gets the benefit of the doubt, even if he is well-off! The poor Asian is not given the same consideration. It's not about losing seats, per se.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Don't you think "life isn't fair" is just another excuse by kids born with some privileges to keep things as they are, benefiting themselves? We cant rectify all the injustices but if both you and I recognize that distinct group of applicants is clearly at a disadvantage, why not try to make it at least somewhat more fair by helping them?

I do think that disadvantaged applicants (REGARDLESS OF RACE) should be given some consideration. But a URM kid with two physician parents better not try to say "My MCAT is low because society hates me!! WAHHH!!!"

 

[MDforMee]

The system screws the poor Asian kids, who are expected to perform essentially at the same level as the well-off students.

For the 10th time, you're marginalizing Southeast Asians, Filipinos, Japanese, Vietnamese, and so on by calling them "Asians."

Uhh, its East Asians (Chinese and Koreans) that are overrepresented by 500+% in medical schools across the country; non-East Asians are evenly distributed for the most part in medical schools, along with whites. Further, since "white" includes those of Middle Eastern decent, and because there are as many Persians as there are Chinese in the United States, making grand statistically-based inferences based on some 12th graders pie chart on page 1 here is academically irresponsible.

I'd also appreciate it if you stopped throwing blacks and hispanics under the bus every chance you get. That's getting old fast.

Oh, and

 

[MangoPlant]

For the 10th time, you're marginalizing Southeast Asians, Filipinos, Japanese, Vietnamese, and so on by calling them "Asians."

Uhh, its East Asians (Chinese and Koreans) that are overrepresented by 500+% in medical schools across the country; non-East Asians are evenly distributed for the most part in medical schools, along with whites. Further, since "white" includes those of Middle Eastern decent, and because there are as many Persians as there are Chinese in the United States, making grand statistically-based inferences based on some 12th graders pie chart on page 1 here is academically irresponsible.

I'd also appreciate it if you stopped throwing blacks and hispanics under the bus every chance you get. That's getting old fast.

Oh, and

Do you understand that the AAMC does not make a distinction for "Asians" that are "non-East Asians"? If you don't say "Asians" then you don't have any quantitative stataistics to use because AAMC groups Indians, Pakistani, Turkish, Japanese, Chinese and all as one group collectively known as Asians.

 

[MDforMee]

Do you understand that the AAMC does not make a distinction for "Asians" that are "non-East Asians"? If you don't say "Asians" then you don't have any quantitative stataistics to use because AAMC groups Indians, Pakistani, Turkish, Japanese, Chinese and all as one group collectively known as Asians.

I'm glad that you brought it up, so that I don't have to.

We've established that Asians aren't being discriminated against at the point of entry, yes? (when they send in their apps). However, we have also established that SOME Asians are fumbling their interviews. I don't know about you, but I can tell which Asians belong to what specific Asian ethnicity.

My point is that we can't conclude anything about what Asians may or may not be discriminated against without this data.

I tried to figure it out, though. I found an admissions chart at UCB showing tabulated undergraduate Asian statistics, where Chinese and Koreans are overrepresented by factors of 4 compared to California's population, and comprising 80% of the non-Indian Asian pool at UC Berkeley, itself, even though they're "only" 30% of the student population.

California's UC system is homogenous enough -- and East Asians are consistently outperforming everyone else academically while at their respective UCs -- that we can assume AT LEAST 80% of non-Indian Asian medical school applicants from California ARE East Asian. I'd guess that it's closer to 90%.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

I'm glad that you brought it up, so that I don't have to.

We've established that Asians aren't being discriminated against at the point of entry, yes? (when they send in their apps). However, we have also established that SOME Asians are fumbling their interviews. I don't know about you, but I can tell which Asians belong to what specific Asian ethnicity.

My point is that we can't conclude anything about what Asians may or may not be discriminated against without this data.

I tried to figure it out, though. I found an admissions chart at UCB showing tabulated undergraduate Asian statistics, where Chinese and Koreans are overrepresented by factors of 4 compared to California's population, and comprising 80% of the non-Indian Asian pool at UC Berkeley, itself, even though they're "only" 30% of the student population.

California's UC system is homogenous enough -- and East Asians are consistently outperforming everyone else academically while at their respective UCs -- that we can assume AT LEAST 80% of non-Indian Asian medical school applicants from California ARE East Asian. I'd guess that it's closer to 90%.

Dude...you sound really bitter. Maybe if you had studied harder you could have kept up with your classmates.

 

[MDforMee]

Dude...you sound really bitter. Maybe if you had studied harder you could have kept up with your classmates.

Says you. I did pretty well for myself.

Anytime you want to roll with the big dog, I'm here.

 

[DrHitchcraft]

Rent an apartment in the North End of Hartford or the South side of Chicago for a month, work a minimum wage job, and take the bus everywhere you need to go. Then tell me the kids you saw have the same chance as somebody from an upper middle class neighborhood with two parents that weren't in prison or addicted to drugs, who didn't skip school because they were afraid of getting shot or stabbed, who got all the support financially and emotionally to go to college, and had extracurriculars and test prep paid for.

You wouldn't survive a year in the places some of these kids survived 18. That the most severely disadvantaged kids finish college at all is a miracle. Hell, there's some streets that just one kid surviving to 21 is a miracle around here. And you say, "Take some responsibility," add if it's their damn fault that they were born to a single mother with no job and have a father that is dead or in jail. Sure, Take some responsibility kid, go to school in the war zone with some of the worst teachers this country has to offer, with outdated books if you get any at all, and catch the **** up!

You don't know **** about what most of these places are like. I've lived in them for years of my life, and work in one to this day. The ignorance of people in the middle and upper class as to exactly how bad it is is astounding. But like I said, if you think I'm full of ****, go rent yourself a flat in the local ghetto for a month and live like the poor live, then get back to me.

Not to discredit any of your previous arguments but from this post I am thinking that some readers might falsely interpret the real-world hardships presented in your post refer only or even largely to URMs (not saying that this was what you are implying). So I just wanted to merely supplement your post and add that there are plenty of non-URMs that face the same or similar hardships but don't get the same 'URM-boost' that everyone is debating about.

For example, these non-URMs raised in a disadvantaged environment with a 3.3GPA/26MCAT would more than likely not have any human set eyes on their application merely for not checking off a Black/Hispanic/Native ethnicity box. This would not be the case with a URM applicant - disadvantaged or not. The problem with this is the definition of being 'disadvantaged'. The URM-boosts are arguably given to those who simply identify as Black/Hispanic/Native WHICH DOES NOT mean they are disadvantaged.

And just to clarify, this is not an argument against utilitarianism or 'what is best for the US healthcare system'...

 

[DrHitchcraft]

I know that certain medical schools definitely consider Vietnamese URM, and not all Latinos are considered URM especially Cubans due the high proportion of them in medicine.

Is this really true? I find it hard to believe. Can you name the school? I want to apply.

 

[Mad Jack]

No I don't.

I'll be honest. I used to be idealistic like you. Then I got out in the real world, and I realized just how many people blame the world for their problems and try to game the system. Perhaps I am a little bit jaded, but that's what life does to you.

BTW -- I do think that disadvantaged applicants (REGARDLESS OF RACE) should be given some consideration. But a URM kid with two physician parents better not try to say "My MCAT is low because society hates me!! WAHHH!!!"

Actually the truth is I often just play the devils advocate on the forums. If an argument looks lopsided I just offer counterarguments. I've actually argued both for and against this very issue in the past, sometimes in the same thread.

Affirmative action isn't a perfect solution. We need minority physicians. A lot of the people that benefit from it are not necessarily the best people to benefit from it. A lot of the people that are discriminated against are in groups that should not be discriminated against because they are either not overrepresented or their particular case is not representative of the average experience of their group as a whole. A perfect system can never exist, unfortunately, because we'll always be screwing someone, and no one, rich or poor, black, white, Asian, or Latino, rich or poor, should be screwed for things they can't control, because that isn't right. But since we've got limited seats, and way more applicants than we have room for, there will always be somebody getting pushed out and it is the job of admission committees to figure out who that best is in light of their school's particular mission and philosophy. Then find a way to sleep at night knowing they threw out the hopes and dreams of thousands of kids that didn't make the cut.

And to anybody that I've debated, in this thread or any other, just know that it's pretty much never personal. I can be wholeheartedly disagreeing with you in the thread while laughing and agreeing with you in real life. Most of the time, I'm just keeping things interesting and making you (and myself) think more thoroughly about the implications of views on certain topics.

 

[bonnie12]

Is this really true? I find it hard to believe. Can you name the school? I want to apply.

I have PMed you.

 

[Pacna]

So it shouldn't because it is fundamentally their personal responsibility to perform on the level of others who have not faced the same challenges and arguably had it easier? Why do you think this is fair?

That's true, but that's not an argument for URM consideration. That's an argument for ADCOMs taking your SES and personal history into account. It's 100% reasonable for someone who faced significant challenges to get a break.

 

[MDforMee]

I just woke up... I had a dream about this thread. I'm curious, what is anyone doing about this stuff in real life?

I tutor and provide transfer guidance at 2 different community colleges, and I'm going to become an adviser in a mentorship program to help acclimate transfers to the University-level workload. This will help students not get blindsided by grade curves and people that exclude community college transfer students and minorities/whites/non-East Asians/women in STEM fields from study groups/lab help sessions.

 

[Lucca]

At the very beginning of this tread I established that SES is indeed considered in the application. I cited the AAMC literature backing this up. In that same literature we saw that over half of AA applicants are in the most disadvantaged social groups and about half of latinos are in that group. Only 30% of Asian applicants make up that group.

Before all of this happened we established why the AAMC, a primarily white and asian run organization, has a commitment to better representing the population of the United States within the institution of medicine: combatting need, leveling educational disparities, and increasing the access of under-served populations to medicine. It has been documented and previously shown on this thread that it is indeed the case that minorities are more likely to choose a minority physician for a variety of culturally specific reasons. Language barriers, institutionalized distrust of other minorities, etc. We swept the whole "**** race, ses only" argument under the rug pretty early.

Later, we established that Asian applicants do not have to compete at any distinguishably higher level from white applicants in spite of over-representing their population by a factor of 4 in medicine. Calculations were done and hypotheses were established to explain discrepencies (California skew). Here, ChemEngMD found the definitive answer to the original question posited - "is it better for asians to not disclose race on the app" - by showing that this self selecting group (unknown race) of applicants had higher average MCAT and GPA scores than all other categories.

Furthermore, we cited several academic papers that documented and studied the "model minority" stereotype and how it as affected the lives of Asian American and Asian Immigrant students and their career choices. Nutty Engineer Dude later cited more articles discussing how this fit directly into the context of medicine.

After a long red herring about whether x or y thing was racist or not, we have come back to the same arguments that were disproven before by analysis, fact finding, and calculation.


So.... Why the **** is this thread still going?


Keep in mind, im not saying there's no racism towards Asians - there's a lot! The model minority stereotype has greatly harmed the self-image of many students, due in part of social expectations in their early childhood to fulfill these expectations and because of parental pressure to maintain this image and preserve the success of the family. Those last two statements are corroborated by a history of asian immigrant culture, the nature of asian immigration (successful immigrants immigrate to america because "the natives aren't particularly competitive", citation needed on study) and a cultural glorification of the group rather than the individual. These stereotypes are further entrenched by the urban phenomenom that both high ses and low ses asian groups conglomerate into homogenous social groups wherever they live while the opposite effect is true of latinos and african americans who will disperse into more racially doverse groups at higher SES values, citation needed.


Honestly, if I was Asian, I wouldn't be mad about this institutional racism that is keeping them out of medical school. Mostly because it doesn't exist. I'd be angry about the depictions of asians in the American media, or lack thereof, and the rather quiet blowback the media receives in this respect.

 

[Pacna]

I just woke up... I had a dream about this thread. I'm curious, what is anyone doing about this stuff in real life?

I tutor and provide transfer guidance at 2 different community colleges, and I'm going to become and adviser in a mentorship program to help acclimate transfers to the University-level workload. This will help students not get blindsided by grade curves and people that exclude community college transfer students and minorities/whites/non-East Asians/women in STEM fields from study groups/lab help sessions.

I accept the fact that people are equal regardless of race. That's one place to start.

 

[Womb Raider]

Maybe I just need to get it out there... I don't really care that the admission process screws well off kids... I find their tears delicious.

And to anybody that I've debated, in this thread or any other, just know that it's pretty much never personal.

Hilarious.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

I read the first page of this thread and the last page of this thread. Shockingly, nobody's opinion in this debate has changed! I'm cheering for 15 more pages though.

 

[487806]

I read the first page of this thread and the last page of this thread. Shockingly, nobody's opinion in this debate has changed! I'm cheering for 15 more pages though.

Same. The more the merrier! *resumes watching the cyclic debate*

 

[Mad Jack]

Hilarious.

Was obvious bait mayne, you think I was serious?

 

[SunsFun]

That's true, but that's not an argument for URM consideration. That's an argument for ADCOMs taking your SES and personal history into account. It's 100% reasonable for someone who faced significant challenges to get a break.

It's actually an argument to consider both. I personally believe that URMs face extra challenges just because of the color of their skin even when you control for all other factors.

 

[Mad Jack]

I just woke up... I had a dream about this thread. I'm curious, what is anyone doing about this stuff in real life?

I tutor and provide transfer guidance at 2 different community colleges, and I'm going to become and adviser in a mentorship program to help acclimate transfers to the University-level workload. This will help students not get blindsided by grade curves and people that exclude community college transfer students and minorities/whites/non-East Asians/women in STEM fields from study groups/lab help sessions.

I help hard up kids at my alma mater with MCAT prep. Have a library of books that I loan out on good faith. I also do my best to mentor them as to how the premed process works at my old school and guide them to the professors that whose teaching styles I feel they will be most compatible with. I've also got plenty of connections at my hospital, and do my best to get them in touch with physicians they can shadow and entry level patient care if they are qualified. Only thing I ask in return is that they do the same for another kid someday, pay it forward and whatnot.

 

[touchpause13]

I read the first page of this thread and the last page of this thread. Shockingly, nobody's opinion in this debate has changed! I'm cheering for 15 more pages though.

 

[Womb Raider]

Was obvious bait mayne, you think I was serious?

Sounded more like someone had one too many appletinis, posted an honest drunken comment, and then tried to redeem himself later.

*Shrug* still hilarious.

 

[Mad Jack]

Sounded more like someone had one too many appletinis, posted an honest drunken comment, and then tried to redeem himself later.

*Shrug* still hilarious.

I don't drink. Maybe I just crave the rage and tears of neurotics to fill that void?

 

[Reckoner]

I don't drink. Maybe I just crave the rage and tears of neurotics to fill that void?

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Hey Arcmuis,
Much respect for trying to bring this thread to a peaceful and inclusive conclusion. I feel that the problem with these type of threads are that they are divisive, something that is a problem in our nation as a whole at the moment. Anyways, I want to make a few clarifications.

Keep in mind, im not saying there's no racism towards Asians - there's a lot! The model minority stereotype has greatly harmed the self-image of many students, due in part of social expectations in their early childhood to fulfill these expectations and because of parental pressure to maintain this image and preserve the success of the family. Those last two statements are corroborated by a history of asian immigrant culture, the nature of asian immigration (successful immigrants immigrate to america because "the natives aren't particularly competitive", citation needed on study) and a cultural glorification of the group rather than the individual.

I'm not sure what is meant by this statement, I believe almost all people who immigrate to the United States because they are looking for a new life and opportunity. I do not believe there is a group of anyone, particularly asians who until recently have come from third world countries, that view the united states as some sort of place where they can immigrate to because "the natives aren't particularly competitive" and certainly not a history of this ??

Regarding the model minority stereotype, it is a myth and most importantly it was meant as a divisive tool:

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/comm...chinese-20140123,0,849364.story#ixzz2s6YNZnXQ

By the 1960s, the concept of strong, disciplined families became the basis of the new racial stereotype of Chinese Americans as "model minorities": domestic exemplars, upwardly mobile and politically docile. In the midst of the black freedom movement of the 1960s, numerous politicians and academics and the mainstream media contrasted Chinese with African Americans. They found it expedient to invoke Chinese "culture" to counter the demands of civil rights and black power activists for substantive change.

Moreover, critics disliked the ways in which ideas about Asian Americans reinforced the denigration of African Americans. Writing for Los Angeles-based Gidra magazine in 1969, Amy Uyematsu resented being implicated in "white racism" by being "held up" before other minority groups as a "model to emulate."

The model minority stereotype is just bad, for everyone involved. And it is a great tool to get minorities to fight amongst each other.

The model minority stereotype has greatly harmed the self-image of many students, due in part of social expectations in their early childhood to fulfill these expectations.... and a cultural glorification of the group rather than the individual.

The "cultural glorification of the group rather than the individual" is sort of a misquote for the literature saying that asians have a strong family unit which pressures them. I dont believe this is much different from old-fashioned traditions in most cultures. But in recent times and in western culture, it has drifted towards more individualism to the extent that the family unit is not as high on the hierarchy as previous.

These stereotypes are further entrenched by the urban phenomenom that both high ses and low ses asian groups conglomerate into homogenous social groups wherever they live while the opposite effect is true of latinos and african americans who will disperse into more racially doverse groups at higher SES values, citation needed.

Again, I mean no disrespect but your statement is sort of rather simplistic and sort of pins non-integration solely on the shoulders of asians. The problem of groups conglomerating is a two-way street. I've found some data that helps paint the current picture:

The problem of segregation is common among Americans and affects us as a society:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/08/us-usa-poll-race-idUSBRE97704320130808

Many Americans have no friends of another race: poll
(Reuters) - About 40 percent of white Americans and about 25 percent of non-white Americans are surrounded exclusively by friends of their own race, according to an ongoing Reuters/Ipsos poll.

But it goes deeper than that, in California (and to some extent NYC), Asians are more segregated but this is not reflective nationwide.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/25/local/la-me-ff-0626-asian-segregation-20130626

That contrasts sharply with the dismal history of segregation for Latinos and blacks in the U.S., said John R. Logan, a Brown University professor of sociology. The flourishing of many Chinese, Indian and Korean neighborhoods may be what keeps people there from moving into more integrated areas.

If your neighborhood is doing well, "where would the motive be to change?" asked Logan, co-author of the study. "There may in fact be a strong element of separation in the future."

That is the asian story but this may be the narrative that reflects it among all minorities:

It's no surprise that immigrants gravitate toward "ethnoburbs," suburban areas such as Monterey Park that are filled with ethnic businesses. "You can read the newspaper, listen to the radio, buy a house from a real estate agent, go to a doctor and get your groceries from people who speak your language," said Linda Vo, a professor of Asian American studies at UC Irvine

In Los Angeles and Orange counties, Asian Americans live in more separated areas than do Asian Americans nationwide, the study found.

Anyways, this article shows it is a common thing among all minorities too, and with data:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...sing/2011/08/01/gIQAJrLgoI_story.html?hpid=z4

Study: Income does not explain segregation patterns in housing “Income, and being successful in class terms, does not necessarily put you in a different kind of neighborhood,” said John Logan, a Brown University sociologist who analyzed census data in his study released Tuesday.

Honestly, if I was Asian, I wouldn't be mad about this institutional racism that is keeping them out of medical school. Mostly because it doesn't exist. I'd be angry about the depictions of asians in the American media, or lack thereof, and the rather quiet blowback the media receives in this respect.

Yeah I'm not sure what the best strategy for asians to combat racism in america is. Are the problems due to media representation the cause or a symptom? I do think it is a complex problem among a group of people that are diverse, so much so that a subgroup's problem becomes a problem for all, but a subgroup's success becomes only that subgroup's.

 

[Lucca]

Hey Arcmuis,
Much respect for trying to bring this thread to a peaceful and inclusive conclusion. I feel that the problem with these type of threads are that they are divisive, something that is a problem in our nation as a whole at the moment. Anyways, I want to make a few clarifications.



I'm not sure what is meant by this statement, I believe almost all people who immigrate to the United States because they are looking for a new life and opportunity. I do not believe there is a group of anyone, particularly asians who until recently have come from third world countries, that view the united states as some sort of place where they can immigrate to because "the natives aren't particularly competitive" and certainly not a history of this ??

Regarding the model minority stereotype, it is a myth and most importantly it was meant as a divisive tool:

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/comm...chinese-20140123,0,849364.story#ixzz2s6YNZnXQ



The model minority stereotype is just bad, for everyone involved. And it is a great tool to get minorities to fight amongst each other.


The "cultural glorification of the group rather than the individual" is sort of a misquote for the literature saying that asians have a strong family unit which pressures them. I dont believe this is much different from old-fashioned traditions in most cultures. But in recent times and in western culture, it has drifted towards more individualism to the extent that the family unit is not as high on the hierarchy as previous.


Again, I mean no disrespect but your statement is sort of rather simplistic and sort of pins non-integration solely on the shoulders of asians. The problem of groups conglomerating is a two-way street. I've found some data that helps paint the current picture:

The problem of segregation is common among Americans and affects us as a society:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/08/us-usa-poll-race-idUSBRE97704320130808


But it goes deeper than that, in California (and to some extent NYC), Asians are more segregated but this is not reflective nationwide.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/25/local/la-me-ff-0626-asian-segregation-20130626


That is the asian story but this may be the narrative that reflects it among all minorities:


Anyways, this article shows it is a common thing among all minorities too, and with data:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...sing/2011/08/01/gIQAJrLgoI_story.html?hpid=z4





Yeah I'm not sure what the best strategy for asians to combat racism in america is. Are the problems due to media representation the cause or a symptom? I do think it is a complex problem among a group of people that are diverse, so much so that a subgroup's problem becomes a problem for all, but a subgroup's success becomes only that subgroup's.

I agree with essentially everything you say. I have no further interest in continuing the discussions put forward in this thread for the reasons I listed in my last post. I'll just clarify some of the points you touched on in my posts.

The "natives aren't particularly competitive".
I had mentioned this statement applied to successful immigrants who were successful before they came to the United States. I remember a Nigerian friend of my posted a study on fb a while ago detailing immigrant success in the United States. I tried to quickly search for the article but I don't quite remember the author or organization that put it forward so I don't really expect you to buy the following, but here's what it said: The two most successful immigrant groups were the Nigerians and the Chinese. Since the 1980s, educated and wealthy Chinese immigrants have been coming (or sending their children) to the United States and disproportionately filling the upper-income brackets of the Asian sub-groups. Likewise, the Nigerians have done the same on the back of the longest and most profitable oil-boom in history. Some posters might have touched on this earlier in the thread when they were talking about "Africans" vs. "African-Americans" but to be completely honest I just scanned over those.

The Model Minority Myth
I agree and acknowledge it is a divisive tool and I believe my post reflected this when I added how it adversely affected Asian students, especially in their childhood. One of the studies I cited much earlier in the thread went into further depth into how the stereotype caused a greater number of Asian students to experience adverse mental health effects due to not meeting their parental or personal expectations.

Cultural glorification of the group
When I mentioned this, I had in mind the very historically eastern philosophies of the good of the group over the good of the individual. Unlike the West which experienced an individualistic revolution during the European renaissance and again at the turn of the 20th century, the then isolationist East maintained their traditionally group-centric philosophy. The twentieth century offered an opportunity for the East to become more individualistic but the communist revolution in China soon cemented the continent in its own ways. Meanwhile, direct British imperialism in the Indian subcontinent sparked an inward looking nationalism that acted as a sort of reaction towards the increasing individualism of the time. Indirect British imperialism in Japan caused something of the same thing. The effects of these defining historical and cultural periods can be easily seen today. Otherwise, why would the world be surprised at China's growing Western-phile middle-class? (The Economist recently published an article about it)

Now, you (and rightly, I might add) subscribed this phenomenon to a culture being "old-fashioned" but I have to say that there's an appreciable difference between the family-centric culture of, say, my Latin American family and the family-centric culture of my best friend (a Chinese immigrant). There are different roles and responsibilities and expectations that, although centered around a similar principle, have different consequences. I think the answer to this difference is rooted in the history of Eastern and Western philosophy/culture. Remember, the East was basically a mystical black hole for 5000 years and Nixon of all people had to pull back the curtains for the Western Hemisphere after imperialistic British policies pissed off the Chinese and basically everyone else on that side of the planet.
Group conglomeration is indeed a two-way street.

You already cited the statistics backing this, and I agree that, in hindsight, my statement did seem to saddle the responsibility on the Asians. I really just thought it was a natural consequence of the prior, but I've given it more thought and that is probably too simplistic an explanation. I said this as just more of a natural feeling having lived in lower income and higher income neighborhoods in my life. In the lower income neighborhoods everyone stuck with "their kind" like glue, but in the higher income neighborhoods group diversity was more pronounced; that is, except for the Asian sub-groups. N=1, I think a deeper investigation into sub-group conglomeration by income level might prove more satisfactory. For any Asians out there, I don't mean to say you don't like diversity or hanging out with other groups. Just a trend I've observed in my own life, is all. Probably incorrect, but whatever.

 

[GoodGuyGregory]

Edit: deleted what I wrote here earlier because I read some posts and realized people have touched on this.

 

[GoodGuyGregory]

Anyways, what I find the most interesting is the difference of opinions in Liberals in Canada VS America
http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/11/25/who-gets-into-university/