Now this is getting out of hand...

[186321]

Okay, so its already ridiculous enough that schools take your $50-$100 application fee and then never contact you (not even email) to let you know that you have been rejected.

Well I applied to Penn State this year and never got a rejection letter (I guess I still have a chance, right?). I emailed the admissions department and asked which areas of my application could be improved for next years application cycle. Now, this is apparently what every schools says they offer and they encourage rejected students to pursue this information...

The email I got back infuriated me... First of all it was a standard copy and paste email. In short, this is the "helpful" advice I was given:

1. Review your application with a trusted supporter or adviser.
2. Go to the AAMC website (link provided) and read their guidelines for reapplying.
3. Read the MSAR website (link provided) to determine which schools to apply to.
4. "Identify medical schools with programs and student experiences that best fit your medical career goals"
5. Continue to visit the Penn State website for updates on programs and student activities.

Wow.. Thats some personalized feedback! I guess this means I submitted my AMCAS with scribbles on it and applied to fake schools? Next time I'll just give them $100, punch myself in the face, and call it a day.

I'll be calling them this week to get an actual answer to my question...

---

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[Bartelby]

Sorry to hear about the rejection man, but they don't owe you an answer. You paid for them to evaluate your application for admission, not to provide admissions counseling. That said, I hope they do give you some good feedback. Good luck.

 

[Bond8204]

Wow.. Thats some personalized feedback! I guess this means I submitted my AMCAS with scribbles on it and applied to fake schools? Next time I'll just give them $100, punch myself in the face, and call it a day.

I agree...somebody was saying that a school they called plainly refused to talk to them about it. I think there's 2 points to be made:

1) It's absurd, as you said, that after paying them an inflated application fee, they can't have the common decency to write a few notes on your file after rejecting you on what can be improved. Personally, I wouldn't reapply to such a school unless there were some dire reason like they were in-state. I'd pick up the phone and try other schools until I got an answer and then focus on the things set up in that talk.

2) It's also a symptom of how ridiculously competitive this process is becoming. I'll bet the reason that some of these med schools have a policy not to answer such queries or to answer vaguely as said above is because there really isn't a good answer for some of them. Take a 35 mcat 3.8 GPA person with great extracurricular activities and letters of recommendation from the president of his school and the AMA. Obviously that person's probably going to get into a lot of places but I don't think anybody gets in everywhere--what, theoretically, is that person supposed to be told by a school that spurned him post-interview, or worse, post-secondary?

Obviously that's an exaggeration but I get the feeling (and I think I'm right) that schools don't actively reject applications as much as they accept applications and then slide the rest off their desk. I really think sometimes adcoms would have no better an answer for why you weren't accepted other than "you weren't one of the applications that was accepted."

Rant over. Good luck getting other feedback. It's a very important part of the reapplication process.

 

[Bond8204]

Sorry to hear about the rejection man, but they don't owe you an answer. You paid for them to evaluate your application for admission, not to provide admissions counseling. That said, I hope they do give you some good feedback. Good luck.

You miss the point. It's common decency that if you put in the time, effort, and money to apply to their school (and keep them updated....travel to interview...etc etc) and they decline your application, that you be able to be told by them a few pointers that might result in a better decision. Edit: Mind you, this is an office of the school whose sole duty is to handle applications. It is their job to be taking calls/emails from neurotic premeds which is whyI'm always a little put-off by schools that write in capital letters "Do not contact our office!! We will contact you if we want to talk to you!"

Somebody's immediately going to follow-up on this with "well...that's the way it is..get used to it." You're right. but that doesn't mean it's not bull.

 

[87138]

The more concrete reasons an admissions committee gives an applicant to explain why he or she was rejected, the more likely it is that a litigious student with his or her parents' lawyers in tow would be knocking on that school's door.

 

[xanthomondo]

Would it make you even more angry to hear that that isn't even a PSU-specific response/email?

I got the identical thing from Jefferson 2 years ago when I asked about early decision

 

[Bond8204]

Hahaha. MMM...tastes like AAMC

 

[mdgator]

Sorry to hear about the rejection man, but they don't owe you an answer. You paid for them to evaluate your application for admission, not to provide admissions counseling. That said, I hope they do give you some good feedback. Good luck.

I don't want anyone to take any offense, by any means, but I somewhat agree with this, as well as rogerwilco's post. Something like 1/5 of all applicants apply to PSU. That's thousands of applicants. It seems like a lot of work to give out personalized admissions counseling to each rejected applicant. Then, combine this with the fact that it is probably not very easy at all, in A LOT of cases, to actually define in concrete terms why applicant A got in, and applicant B didn't. There must be hundreds of applicant to PSU who roughly have the following attributes, for example: 31 MCAT, 3.75 GPA, good (yet very typical) ECs, solid letters of rec. Many of these applicants will get in, many will not. What seperates these applicants? A minor slip-up in an interview? An extra little bit of charisma? A fortunate (yet completely irrelevant) shared interest with an interviewer? Being distracted due to personal issues on interview day? Dumb luck? As competitive as this process is, I'd bet that the little things that seperate very closely matched applicants are often not much more concrete or even relevant than some of these things. And how do you put something like that into words when someone calls asking how to improve? What do you tell an applicant who, in all honesty, was actually qualified to get into your school? There's not much you can say. And if there is something highly significant to be said, (such as, "you made a 25 on the MCAT, you should retake it"), then it is highly likely that the applicant already knows how to improve.

I know that many...probably most schools DO take the time to provide personal feedback, but I also know that some schools don't. Another school I applied to (and was rejected from) explicitly states in the rejection letter that applicants should not call or write asking for feedback, as it is just too time consuming to provide this service. I can understand the frustration this may cause, but I can also understand why a school would take this position.

For what it's worth, OP, I found everyone at Penn St to be extremely accomidating, student-centered, and friendly. I would not be surprised if they actually did try to provide some helpful info for you when you call, and I hope this is the case. Again, I hope noone takes offense to my opinions.

 

[Chuckwalla]

That is ridiculous. Unfortunately, med schools hold all the cards and there is nothing you can do about it. They don't care if you get mad, so it is best you just take it in stride.

 

[87138]

mdgator, everything you said was reasonable, so I wouldn't imagine anyone would get mad.

Many schools will allow you to schedule a meeting with the Dean of Admissions (or someone in a similar position) after the application season is over so that you may discuss what "went wrong" in your application cycle. Unfortunately, as you may realize, this is probably a bit too late in the game if you were planning on reapplying for the immediately subsequent cycle.

In addition, I've found PSU's administration to be nothing but pleasant and helpful. It's unfortunate that Amber in admissions will be leaving after this year (at least that is what I was told), but my positive experiences with them certainly doesn't end with her.

 

[ufgrad00]

Looking back, I wish I paid more attention to the schools I applied to. Knowing the huge number of applicants Georgetown and George Washington receive every year, an applicant has like a 98% chance of being rejected. I wish had paid attention to this, because their secondary fees were huge.

I did like how FSU did it though. Applicants only paid a 30 dollar secondary fee if they were accepted.

 

[Chuckwalla]

I did like how FSU did it though. Applicants only paid a 30 dollar secondary fee if they were accepted.

That is because they are going to get a couple hundred grand out of each sucker.

 

[cameljocke]

To the poster who feels that the application fee gives them the "right" to a review of what they can improve, I do not exactly agree. While it would be nice, and as a fellow applicant, I would also like to know, I am also aware that they have way too many applicants and maybe not enough time to tell you what you can personally improve. This point, however, is arguable. My take, in short, is that I don't really care.

What REALLY infuriates me is not having the common decency to let me know I've even been rejected. No email, letter, online status change - NOTHING. While the above point, I believe is an arguable "luxury," I feel the app fee DEFINITELY owes me a response on my application. Otherwise, I have every right to assume that they did not even review it, to which I would most definitely complain and bitch about a refund. I have 3 schools that have yet to inform me, and believe you me, I will request an application refund or at least a letter in the mail/email saying I have been rejected.

You don't just take my $100 and then forget about me - that's crap. I wish I could do that to a school - put down the deposit and just not show up for orientation or something. Yes, I know AAMC would screw me and they have rules for that, but they should have rules the other way as well.

 

[BMBPSU2008]

I got my rejection letter yesterday. Maybe its "home field advantage"

 

[xanthomondo]

I got my rejection letter yesterday. Maybe its "home field advantage"

i got mine a few days ago

schools may not owe you a concrete "answer" (one may not even exist) but they definitely owe you a rejection letter

schools that dont notify you of a rejection (email, status change, letter, etc) piss me off

 

[186321]

I don't want anyone to take any offense, by any means, but I somewhat agree with this, as well as rogerwilco's post.... I would not be surprised if they actually did try to provide some helpful info for you when you call, and I hope this is the case. Again, I hope noone takes offense to my opinions.

I definitely see what you're saying, and I meant to add in my original post that I'm not pissed off at Penn State specifically, because I'm sure this happens at other schools. My belief is that for every school there are a few applicants who (for whatever reason) fly under the radar and get intentionally or unintentionally screwed. What I'm mostly mad about is the collective attitude that schools have towards applicants.. like we're garbage to them.

To those of you who say I'm not "entitled" to feedback on my application, I would have to agree. However, I believe it portrays a certain level of decency to provide feedback and reflects poorly on the school if they do not. These schools demand that we possess the highest level of intelligence, work ethic, and bedside manner.. is it too much for them to have a little too? In closing, I would rather have gotten an email saying "we do not provide feedback" than the one I received with such worthless tips.

Also, as Bond8204 said, these people are PAID to communicate with us. It really angers me when I call to check my application status and I sense a little attitude from the admissions staff (not PSU, other schools). I want to be like "Oh I'm sorry, am I making you do your job?".

Anyways, I'm done my rant and will go back to playing the waiting game... Good luck to everyone!

 

[nu2004]

no "personalized feedback?" as bartleby said, the $50-100 you paid was for the series of steps it took their office staff members to process and review your application.

i do think it is reasonable of you to expect an update in your admissions status... hell, i didn't even submit a secondary to Georgetown and they were courteous enough to send me a rejection letter back in March. found that pretty humorous.

 

[NJDIF]

they certainly are a weird bunch, man.

i just received my SECOND rejection letter from them yesterday. they already sent me one two months ago, but i guess they really wanted to make sure i got the picture . good riddance.

 

[pride4jc727]

I got my rejection letter yesterday. Maybe its "home field advantage"

Or more aptly put, home field disadvantage!!

 

[186321]

they certainly are a weird bunch, man.

i just received my SECOND rejection letter from them yesterday. they already sent me one two months ago, but i guess they really wanted to make sure i got the picture . good riddance.

Haha, thats awesome.

 

[April16MCAT]

I have 3 schools that have yet to inform me, and believe you me, I will request an application refund or at least a letter in the mail/email saying I have been rejected.

I would love to know how this goes. I wrote one school a love letter practically about how I interested I was and how grateful I would even be for the chance at an interview. I had competitive stats for the school and I didnt even get a rejection letter. There should be a policy where you can get your money back. They should be held accountable for all of the application fees they collect and you have a right to know that they at least considered your application.

 

[Bond8204]

I never said an applicant has a "right" to get feedback--nobody did.

My point is that med schools should feel an obligation to give feedback to their applicants.

Yes I know that thousands of people are rejected--but to jot 3 bullet points on each application you reject could be done in a matter of weeks...

... or you don't even have to go this far! to only look at the applicants who call/write would cut down that number to the hundreds or very low thousands, I guarantee.

Somehow, some schools welcome seeking feedback. Somehow they're able to handle it. For these other schools, it's either laziness, an egregious lack of staffing, or an attempt to "keep the ball in their court" or "cover their asses" like I said above. To people who have all this compassion for these offices, again--these offices and jobs exist for the sole purpose of processing applications. There's no reason reapplication feedback can't be a part of that...especially when some schools are able to somehow pull it off.

***Not to mention, we're acting like feedback is this complex process. I think an admissions counselor would be able to look at an application and write or talk to that applicant about what they need to do in under two minutes. We're not talking about some enormous committment.

 

[dArroway]

I really could use some feedback.

 

[Kaustikos]

I want to be like "Oh I'm sorry, am I making you do your job?".

Anyways, I'm done my rant and will go back to playing the waiting game... Good luck to everyone!

Seriously. It's your f**king job. I don't give a d@mn if you've received 300000000 calls, it's in your JOB DESCRIPTION. If I can handle calls from patients constantly asking why their insurance rejected them or why the cost of medication went up or why they have to sign the receipt for a sale with a SMILE and POLITELY answer, then you can offer a better response than

"*sigh* (mind you before I even said my name or what I was asking about) The admissions committee is still considering your file and will notify you by mail when a decision has been made."

I was calling to set up an appointment with an adcom, you prick. But now I'll just hang up on you

 

[DoctorDreamer]

When a school reviews a app, there are thoughts that have to come into their mind... Bad LOR, GPA or MCAT too low, not enough medical experience...

They should jot those down on the app, and when someone calls, they could just read them those notes. I'm not saying they're in the wrong for not doing so, but I believe doing so would put them "in the right." It would be kind and respectful, and would make me much more likely to think highly of that school in the future.

 

[kypdurron5]

I think there's a good possibility that the response IS tailored to you, and it's their way of saying you need to check your school selection because you're not getting into this one. Between 1, 3, and 4 I get a clear message from that response. Don't take it so hard though- Vanderbilt told me the same thing in no uncertain terms. Rather than beating around the bush with "EC's, MCAT, raise GPA" they instead said "We don't foresee [i.e. in the future, ever] the possibility of accepting you based on your application."

 

[bellacnella]

Seriously. It's your f**king job. I don't give a d@mn if you've received 300000000 calls, it's in your JOB DESCRIPTION. If I can handle calls from patients constantly asking why their insurance rejected them or why the cost of medication went up or why they have to sign the receipt for a sale with a SMILE and POLITELY answer, then you can offer a better response than

"*sigh* (mind you before I even said my name or what I was asking about) The admissions committee is still considering your file and will notify you by mail when a decision has been made."

I was calling to set up an appointment with an adcom, you prick. But now I'll just hang up on you

Are you a pharm. tech too?

 

[Bond8204]

I think there's a good possibility that the response IS tailored to you, and it's their way of saying you need to check your school selection because you're not getting into this one. Between 1, 3, and 4 I get a clear message from that response. Don't take it so hard though- Vanderbilt told me the same thing in no uncertain terms. Rather than beating around the bush with "EC's, MCAT, raise GPA" they instead said "We don't foresee [i.e. in the future, ever] the possibility of accepting you based on your application."

Still misses the point. Being staightup told "we don't foresee you ever gaining acceptance here," is still personalized feedback that requires a person to look at your application and assess what can be improved. It's specific. I would honestly prefer a response like that over a canned response from the AAMC that essentially says..."...Welp...ya gotta assess. And after you assess you gotta decide. Good luck."

"We don't foresee [i.e. in the future, ever] the possibility of accepting you based on your application."

I would respond to that, by the way, with "Well what on my application could be improved to change that?" I have little doubt that if you raised your MCAT to a 41, did a post-bac to raise your Ugrad GPA to a 3.9, and got a letter of rec from the president of the AMA that they wouldn't consider your application again somehow.

At least with the response you got, though, you wouldn't end up wasting your money on applying a second time--and I darn well think you could end up doing that with the original response we're talking about.

 

[Maxprime]

Oh boo hoo, you're not special enough for the dean of admissions to personally go over your application again and write up a nice email telling you what to do in the next year. They probably only got 6,000 applicants this year and rejected 5,700 of them.

That jerk admissions director is probably wasting his/her time trying to manage the issues with the people that are actually matriculating to that school. If I'm ever in charge of the admissions process, I promise to personally call and reject each person with a laundry list of reasons that you can take to court or post on SDN/blog/tell a reporter.

Despite what your parents may have told you growing up, I/you/we are not individually special.

 

[kypdurron5]

Still misses the point. Being staightup told "we don't foresee you ever gaining acceptance here," is still personalized feedback that requires a person to look at your application and assess what can be improved. It's specific. I would honestly prefer a response like that over a canned response from the AAMC that essentially says..."...Welp...ya gotta assess. And after you assess you gotta decide. Good luck."



I would respond to that, by the way, with "Well what on my application could be improved to change that?" I have little doubt that if you raised your MCAT to a 41, did a post-bac to raise your Ugrad GPA to a 3.9, and got a letter of rec from the president of the AMA that they wouldn't consider your application again somehow.

At least with the response you got, though, you wouldn't end up wasting your money on applying a second time--and I darn well think you could end up doing that with the original response we're talking about.

Where do you come off thinking you deserve a personalized response? You're extremely arrogant for expecting this. I wrote to a specific member of the admissions committee to get that personal response, and (in regards to your last paragraph) what question do you think I DID ask? Of course I asked what I could do to improve my application. His response was a direct way of saying "nothing." Or nothing reasonable, that is. By all means, go get that 41 and a letter from the AMA president. Just stop whining about not getting a research paper about your application from people who CLEARLY have more important things to do- your application fee bought the right to have your application considered. Upon doing that the transaction was completed. You'll have to get your personal pep-talk elsewhere (which, by the way, is what they told you in step number 1!).


[I realize different people are involved in this discussion. By "you" I'm speaking generally to anyone who concurs with the OP.]

 

[Kaustikos]

Oh boo hoo, you're not special enough for the dean of admissions to personally go over your application again and write up a nice email telling you what to do in the next year. They probably only got 6,000 applicants this year and rejected 5,700 of them.

That jerk admissions director is probably wasting his/her time trying to manage the issues with the people that are actually matriculating to that school. If I'm ever in charge of the admissions process, I promise to personally call and reject each person with a laundry list of reasons that you can take to court or post on SDN/blog/tell a reporter.

Despite what your parents may have told you growing up, I/you/we are not individually special.

They say they offer this service, therefore your sarcastic and annoying response is null. If they're going to half-*** these services, then they deserve the unrelentingly rude and harsh criticisms on their part. Not to mention being looked down upon by the entirety of med students. It's amazing how hard it is to dislodge stereotypes of people when they tend to be true.
Admissions staff = annoying, rude, incompetent people who apparently don't read their job description before accepting the terms of agreement. I wonder what would happen if this occurred in any other job/career.rolleyes:

 

[Kaustikos]

Where do you come off thinking you deserve a personalized response? You're extremely arrogant for expecting this. I wrote to a specific member of the admissions committee to get that personal response, and (in regards to your last paragraph) what question do you think I DID ask? Of course I asked what I could do to improve my application. His response was a direct way of saying "nothing." Or nothing reasonable, that is. By all means, go get that 41 and a letter from the AMA president. Just stop whining about not getting a research paper about your application from people who CLEARLY have more important things to do- your application fee bought the right to have your application considered. Upon doing that the transaction was completed. You'll have to get your personal pep-talk elsewhere (which, by the way, is what they told you in step number 1!).


[I realize different people are involved in this discussion. By "you" I'm speaking generally to anyone who concurs with the OP.]

good idea. Now when someone asks me to fill their prescription at walgreens, I'll half-*** it and make my own version bottle of zolpidem - high dose diazepam. Hey, boo - f**king - hoo. You should be grateful I considered your prescription and filled it.

 

[Pedsbro]

I think all of this is just a manifestation of the frustration of people, like me, who didn't get into a school and only have ourselves to blame. If adcoms took the time to do a personalized report for each applicant, they wouldn't get anything else done. It's unrealistic to expect them to offer such things to tens of thousands of applicants. I have never once thought it was part of their job, nor did I think my fee bought anything other than consideration. It's a money-making process...like any other "processing fee" anywhere else. Also, if they start sending personal letters saying things like "you have a 30 and 3.5, we would like you to bring that up to 33 and 3.7", eventually people are gonna start comparing numbers (on places like SDN forums) and compile a guide "at XX school, if you had YY MCAT score and Z.Z GPA, you just need to bring both up by AA and BB points"....then you get people going to those specific adcoms saying how a similar applicant was told that and you did so as well, but he got in and you didn't...why?? etc etc...you get my drift. It WOULD happen. There are similar sites already...like mdapplicants, but this would be "official" since it would come from actual adcoms.

BUT, let's say they did give personal feedback...what could they say? Raise your GPA...your MCAT score...get more experience? Honestly, I would've figured that all by my little self if I didn't get in. ALL of you know what credentials you're applying with and ALL of you know how much they could be improved. Unless you have a 4.0 and a 45T MCAT already, there's always room to improve the numbers. If you don't have research or experience...start doing so. If you already have some, do some more. IF you can't figure out how you can improve anything on your application by yourself, you might want to rethink re-applying. Whether adcoms should provide feedback or not is irrelevant because we don't need them to.

 

[Bond8204]

you're not special enough for the dean of admissions to personally go over your application again and write up a nice email telling you what to do in the next year. They probably only got 6,000 applicants this year and rejected 5,700 of them.

That jerk admissions director is probably wasting his/her time trying to manage the issues with the people that are actually matriculating to that school.

At what point did I say I needed feedback from the dean or admissions director?

Just stop whining about not getting a research paper about your application from people who CLEARLY have more important things to do

I never said research paper, I said it wouldn't be too much of a bother for an admissions office employee to look over an application and be able to give a few points for improvement. And what better things do they have to be doing!?! They're admissions counselors! Again--how are some schools able to provide feedback and some aren't if these people are so high and mighty that they can't be bothered?

You'll have to get your personal pep-talk elsewhere

Nowhere did anybody say they're looking for a pep talk. I don't think there's anything wrong with learning from an admissions committee what you can do to improve your application to them.

I think all of this is just a manifestation of the frustration of people, like me, who didn't get into a school and only have ourselves to blame. If adcoms took the time to do a personalized report for each applicant, they wouldn't get anything else done. It's unrealistic to expect them to offer such things to tens of thousands of applicants.

You're right to an extent but not completely. I got in this year but I'm still annoyed by the idea of an admissions counselor completlely blowing off somebody who wasn't as lucky--and took the effort, time and money not only to carefully fill out their application but to continually show concern about what they can do to get into that school. As I said before, sure--it doesn't need to be for everybody rejected (though I still contend, writing a few sentences on a rejected application would take only a matter of a few weeks of work). Do it for only those who call--surely that would be in the hundreds or very low thousands. Again, some schools are somehow able to do this! Do they just have thousands of indentured servants working in their offices?

BUT, let's say they did give personal feedback...what could they say? Raise your GPA...your MCAT score...get more experience? Honestly, I would've figured that all by my little self if I didn't get in.

You contradict yourself a little here. If it's that easy--if it's that obvious, then why is it such a pain to tell people what's wrong with their application? And here, we get back to the idea that med schools probably don't want to specify what's going on with rejections specifically so that they can keep the ball in their court.

I'm willing to bet, by the way, that a lot of these people arguing for the adcoms didn't have to deal with the pain and lost feeling of being rejected. I'm not whining here--but unless you've gone through this I'd hesitate to say this is all just a bunch of people being frustrated with their failures--this process has a lot of randomness to it..and a lot of people sometimes end up on the bad side of that luck. Having some concrete goals laid out for you is a very helpful thing to have during a time of pretty significant distress.

That said, oftentimes on SDN threads degenerate into people loudly screaming their opinions over and over. I think if I post any more here I'll have reached that point...so I'm out

 

[ColKurtz]

What REALLY infuriates me is not having the common decency to let me know I've even been rejected. No email, letter, online status change - NOTHING.

+1

I actually interviewed at a rolling school back in September and they have yet to give me any kind of decision. I gave up contacting them in December after dealing with the rude, piss-ants working there one too many times. The way I see it I was paid to be notified of their decision so now I am hoping that they never contact me so I can try and get my secondary fee back. I wonder if anyone has ever been able to pull it off?

 

[kypdurron5]

good idea. Now when someone asks me to fill their prescription at walgreens, I'll half-*** it and make my own version bottle of zolpidem - high dose diazepam. Hey, boo - f**king - hoo. You should be grateful I considered your prescription and filled it.

Show me a receipt where this "service" you're expecting is listed in association with your payment. It's like expecting a ***** to stick around and cuddle.... Pay for application review=receive application review. Pay for pills=get pills. I've never even met my pharmacist, let alone expected him to give me a lecture about my medication, what medications would work differently, what I can do on my next doctor visit to improve my health condition, etc. Don't compare apples or oranges.

Admissions staff = annoying, rude, incompetent people who apparently don't read their job description before accepting the terms of agreement

How old are you? Seriously. Have you ever held a job? Admissions committees are generally made of some administrative personnel and some practicing physicians, the latter of whom give of their time for little or no compensation. If you want to try and get a personal opinion about your application then try to get contact info for someone specific who is on the committee, or maybe one of your interviewers. Writing to the admissions address (i.e. the secretary) and expecting anything other than a form letter is just your own fault. You got what you asked for, don't be mad at us for the egg on your face.

BTW, I'm not unsympathetic to everyone who wasn't accepted this season. I applied 3 times before getting in, so I'm quite experienced with rejection and reapplication. However, that is not what we're talking about here.

Haha!!! To Bond8204: they're NOT admissions counselors!! That's just the point! They're not there to counsel you about anything, that's what your pre-med advisors at your alma matter are for, which again, is why they said in point #1 to contact that person. You talk about the admission process as though it's a formula, and the admission staff as though it's a cohesive unit where everybody knows everything that's going on....for all 6000 applications. Do you really think they reject your application with a note: MCAT .5 too low, interview so-so, GPA OK? It just doesn't work that way. The secretary doesn't know and doesn't care what's going on with the specifics of your application, that's not his/her responsibility....but guess who's responsible for communication? Again, if you want a personal response you need to write to someone personally, and even then, you're asking them to do you a favor, NOT cash in on something you deserve.

 

[Bond8204]

To Bond8204: they're NOT admissions counselors

You're an idiot. I've seen people's job description under their nametag as "admissions counselor" on interview dates. You're making an *** of yourself and, like I said, getting into a shouting match with no one. Peace.

 

[kypdurron5]

You're an idiot. I've seen people's job description under their nametag as "admissions counselor" on interview dates. You're making an *** of yourself and, like I said, getting into a shouting match with no one. Peace.

But you popped back in to call me names....very classy.

 

[sirrileydog]

I think this is just an issue of choosing the wrong mode of communication.

If you want a personal response, make a personal request. Pick up the phone. Email is just too easy to ignore. I ignore lots of emails in my everyday personal life and job, but rarely have the indecency to hang up on people. Besides, if someone really needs something from me, they won't rely on email--they'll show up in my office in person or use the telephone.

OP, try making a polite phone call and report back if you have any better luck?

 

[Kaustikos]

Show me a receipt where this "service" you're expecting is listed in association with your payment. It's like expecting a ***** to stick around and cuddle.... Pay for application review=receive application review. Pay for pills=get pills. I've never even met my pharmacist, let alone expected him to give me a lecture about my medication, what medications would work differently, what I can do on my next doctor visit to improve my health condition, etc. Don't compare apples or oranges.


How old are you? Seriously. Have you ever held a job? Admissions committees are generally made of some administrative personnel and some practicing physicians, the latter of whom give of their time for little or no compensation. If you want to try and get a personal opinion about your application then try to get contact info for someone specific who is on the committee, or maybe one of your interviewers. Writing to the admissions address (i.e. the secretary) and expecting anything other than a form letter is just your own fault. You got what you asked for, don't be mad at us for the egg on your face.

BTW, I'm not unsympathetic to everyone who wasn't accepted this season. I applied 3 times before getting in, so I'm quite experienced with rejection and reapplication. However, that is not what we're talking about here.

I've worked more jobs than I can count with both hands, what the hell does that have anythign to do with this? If anything, it's showing me how terrible the people are that work at the admissions process. If I can work low-paying jobs and still not lazily offer services to customers, I should be given the purple heart or something, according to your standards.
If all your life you're satisfied with half-**sed/lazy attempts, good for you.

 

[LizzyM]

Have any of you ever applied for a real job? Did you get a personalized message telling you that you'd not been hired and what you could do to make yourself a better applicant?

Let's say a school rejects 4,000 applicants and each rejected applicant deserves 10 minutes of the adcom's undivided attention through a phone call or personalized letter. That's 40,000 minutes or 16 weeks of full time employment for one person. That is just nuts, particularly when one considers that in many cases, an applicant not admitted to that school does have multiple offers.

The role of the office staff in the admissions office is to support the work of the faculty committee that selects a medical school class. Application fees serve to limit the size of the application pool to a reasonable number of interested applicants (with fee waivers for those with serious financial need) and underwrite the costs associated with the admissions process (staff, IT, space, hospitality on interview day & 2nd look, recruiting materials & visits).

If you want counseling, see your pre-med advisor or hire a professional counselor.

 

[geogil]

Unless you signed a document where the adcom promises feedback in exchange for your fee, they owe you nothing. During my app cycle, I don't recall ever signing such a document. Nowhere did they promise to let me know about the decision, either. Jefferson certainly didn't for me. Why should the admissions office owe you anything? At no time was there an explicit delineation of services rendered in exchange for a fee. It's implicit that your app will be reviewed in exchange for the fee, but that's not an explicit promise. Similarly, at no time did anyone promise you advice in exchange for your fee. Some schools do it as a courtesy, but it's not your "right"; it's a courtesy.

Feedback would be a nice perk, but it's not requisite. Perhaps they didn't let you in because you came across as an entitled pre-med? There's some feedback you can take to the bank, and I won't even charge you $100!

 

[ess]

all i would ask for is to be notified that i have been rejected relatively soon (within two weeks) after the decision has been made.

 

[Kaustikos]

Have any of you ever applied for a real job? Did you get a personalized message telling you that you'd not been hired and what you could do to make yourself a better applicant?

They did call and let me know that I had not gotten the job, which is more than I can say about rejections from med school. Nice try

Let's say a school rejects 4,000 applicants and each rejected applicant deserves 10 minutes of the adcom's undivided attention through a phone call or personalized letter. That's 40,000 minutes or 16 weeks of full time employment for one person. That is just nuts, particularly when one considers that in many cases, an applicant not admitted to that school does have multiple offers.

Let's not jump to extremes. Not every applicant calls and asks to have a review of their application. Some just call to see what was weak. You're telling me you acn't take 1 minute out of your day to look at the applicant and say WHY they were rejected?

Application fees serve to limit the size of the application pool to a reasonable number of interested applicants (with fee waivers for those with serious financial need) and underwrite the costs associated with the admissions process (staff, IT, space, hospitality on interview day & 2nd look, recruiting materials & visits).

Which is why the secondary "applications" and "fees" come almost instantly after filing the primary applications for a lot of schools. Is that what you and other adcoms tell each other to make yourselves feel better? I won't get into an arguement about that, because it probably works that way. People see a secondary application that comes with a fee that's the same, if not more, than the primary and asks them to recite the same information they put under their primary application? Sorry if some of us see the bull$h1t. We just decide to do it anyways. We're at a disadvantage in that case.

If you want counseling, see your pre-med advisor or hire a professional counselor.

I won't even go into that one.

 

[Kaustikos]

Feedback would be a nice perk, but it's not requisite. Perhaps they didn't let you in because you came across as an entitled pre-med? There's some feedback you can take to the bank, and I won't even charge you $100!

Thank you!

 

[ADeadLois]

Let's not jump to extremes. Not every applicant calls and asks to have a review of their application. Some just call to see what was weak. You're telling me you acn't take 1 minute out of your day to look at the applicant and say WHY they were rejected?

Herein lies the problem. Even if the person answering the phones/email did have the time, it's not part of their job to do so, and very likely they aren't really qualified to analyze a particular application. They serve a logistical purpose. They're not part of the decision-making. Adcoms, the ones who actually make the decisions, are doctors, faculty, etc. and work full-time. They simply can't be expected to be available the thousands of applicants at any time. And given the volume of applications that need to be reviewed, it's asking a lot to expect an adcom member to remember specifics about EVERY application they have reviewed. Given the collaborative nature of application-reviewing, an adcom member who may reviewed a particular file may have no idea why or even if an applicant was subsequently rejected.

 

[Kaustikos]

Herein lies the problem. Even if the person answering the phones/email did have the time, it's not part of their job to do so, and very likely they aren't really qualified to analyze a particular application. They serve a logistical purpose. They're not part of the decision-making. Adcoms, the ones who actually make the decisions, are doctors, faculty, etc. and work full-time. They simply can't be expected to be available the thousands of applicants at any time. And given the volume of applications that need to be reviewed, it's asking a lot to expect an adcom member to remember specifics about EVERY application they have reviewed. Given the collaborative nature of application-reviewing, an adcom member who may reviewed a particular file may have no idea why or even if an applicant was subsequently rejected.

which is why we need robots.

I'm done. There's no point in the arguement and getting into a flame war with med students and adcoms is beyond stupid. Sorry.

 

[littlealex]

Have any of you ever applied for a real job? Did you get a personalized message telling you that you'd not been hired and what you could do to make yourself a better applicant?

Let's say a school rejects 4,000 applicants and each rejected applicant deserves 10 minutes of the adcom's undivided attention through a phone call or personalized letter. That's 40,000 minutes or 16 weeks of full time employment for one person. That is just nuts, particularly when one considers that in many cases, an applicant not admitted to that school does have multiple offers.

The role of the office staff in the admissions office is to support the work of the faculty committee that selects a medical school class. Application fees serve to limit the size of the application pool to a reasonable number of interested applicants (with fee waivers for those with serious financial need) and underwrite the costs associated with the admissions process (staff, IT, space, hospitality on interview day & 2nd look, recruiting materials & visits).

If you want counseling, see your pre-med advisor or hire a professional counselor.

But we don't have to pay $100 to apply for jobs.

 

[kypdurron5]

which is why we need robots.

I'm done. There's no point in the argument and getting into a flame war with med students and adcoms is beyond stupid. Sorry.

No, the problem here is that you refuse to accept a difference of opinion. Every time someone posts the contrary view you pick it apart and paragraph by paragraph tell us why they are wrong and why your view is the only worthy one. You belittle them, swear at them, and use inflammatory sarcasm at every turn. You ignore all the great points of Lizzy's post and instead shout back the same points you've been making all a long. I'm afraid you and a few others have shown a great deal of immaturity on this thread. You would be surprised just how easily interviewers can see right through you. You weren't accepted because you weren't as good as other applicants this cycle. Your only recourse is to become a better applicant- and you shouldn't need anyone to tell you how to do that.

By the way- what if they did tell you to try for a higher MCAT, add in some more shadowing, and raise your GPA a little bit. You do that, and you're still rejected next year because there are still better candidates out there. You would be the exact same person who comes back here and says "I did exactly what they told me to do and I still didn't get in. They LIED to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!" It's a loose-loose situation for them; the only way to make you happy in the long run is to put an acceptance letter in your hand, but you know, your satisfaction with their "service" is one thing they care about least in this world. You're easily outnumbered 5 or 10 to 1 on this thread. The only reason you're shouting is because it's against the reason of so many other voices. Just take a step back and consider that you might not actually have the best, most impartial view about this issue.

 

[cameljocke]

No, the problem here is that you refuse to accept a difference of opinion. Every time someone posts the contrary view you pick it apart and paragraph by paragraph tell us why they are wrong and why your view is the only worthy one. You belittle them, swear at them, and use inflammatory sarcasm at every turn. You ignore all the great points of Lizzy's post and instead shout back the same points you've been making all a long. I'm afraid you and a few others have shown a great deal of immaturity on this thread. You would be surprised just how easily interviewers can see right through you. You weren't accepted because you weren't as good as other applicants this cycle. Your only recourse is to become a better applicant- and you shouldn't need anyone to tell you how to do that.

By the way- what if they did tell you to try for a higher MCAT, add in some more shadowing, and raise your GPA a little bit. You do that, and you're still rejected next year because there are still better candidates out there. You would be the exact same person who comes back here and says "I did exactly what they told me to do and I still didn't get in. They LIED to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!" It's a loose-loose situation for them; the only way to make you happy in the long run is to put an acceptance letter in your hand, but you know, your satisfaction with their "service" is one thing they care about least in this world. You're easily outnumbered 5 or 10 to 1 on this thread. The only reason you're shouting is because it's against the reason of so many other voices. Just take a step back and consider that you might not actually have the best, most impartial view about this issue.

Some food for thought.

I applied to a school last June (for Fall 08 admission) that was at the top of my list. I recieved the secondary (which they screen for) and filled it and was complete in August. I was rejected 1 week later.

I called 1 week later to talk about my app, and the admissions lady politely helped go over what I needed to review. She said it wasn't my GPA or MCAT but that I did not have enough clinical experience. I spent the next 4-5 months volunteering in a clinic and appealed the interview decision. I just had my interview at said school last week.

So yes, they CAN give you information to help your application and improve it. Mine worked in the same app cycle. Do we have a "right" to a review? No. But when they take 60-$100, do the 5% of the applicants who actually want a few minutes of help, deserve one? Absolutely. Especially when it pays off like it did for me.

LIke I said, we at least deserve a rejection letter all teh time.