NPs and PAs Fight For Your Rights Now!!

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Let's fast forward to the real world. Even if the PA spent all those hours with all those specialists, how do we know they were trained appropriately? I know specialty docs who have no business practicing medicine, let alone training PA's. Don't get me wrong, experience is important, unless you got that experience working under a quack. I don't have a problem with mid-levels, but I think they should only be trained to work in one specialty. You guys just don't get enough clinical hours in college to work in any specialty you choose.


Fist midlevels and now specialty training of physicians is in question. Who do we trust?

I know what you're saying on some level, but hasn't the latitude afforded to PA's been a success? As another poster pointed out, PA's are supervised with respect to their skills. They are an extension of the physician. I guess if the physician's practice is poor, the PA's services and practice will be similar in nature. If the PA takes another position with a "good" doc, the new expectations will likely follow.

What I don't understand is how a practitioner can specialize without ever having generalist training. Making PA's complete 2000 hours in one discipline in school would eliminate the generalist training they receive. I guess the theory is that the PA is a generalist and this has allowed them to cross specialties under the supervision of a physician who has met the entry level standards in their specialty. If indeed that physician is still a quack, I'm not sure how this really has much to do with the PA and really can't appreciate the impact this would have.

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I think you have a good point and concern, I felt that it was the delegation of autonomy, that the physician provides the PA, that should prevent the above situation occurring. A newly minted PA is not going to have near the autonomy that a say a PA of ten years, as dictated in there contract with the supervising physician. As time goes on greater autonomy is earned, not granted, from the supervising physician. This does not translate if the PA switches supervising physicians, once again they will have to earn that autonomy form the physician, it may be a lot faster/easier to gain that respect and trust if the PA clearly can show there knowledge. Anyone else please correct or add on, I am 1st year PA student and a have lot to learn. I can only speak for PAs as I do not know a whole lot of the NP profession.

I'm not an expert on the nursing profession either, but I have read on some of the forums that they do specialize. I'm assuming they get more than 4 weeks of training in their chosen field or at least I hope so! I believe they also have to return to school in order to get certified in other specialties. So, for a NP to be a generalist, they would have to get all those letters after their name...ABCDEFGHIJ etc. :laugh: Sorry, couldn't resist that one! I can't imagine that this is financially feasible though, because they would probably end up spending 10 years in school.
 
Below is a PAC curriculum that I have just reviewed:

Course/Program Area Credits
Summer I
June - August (10 weeks)

PAC 500 - Anatomy 4
PAC 503 - Clinical Assessment I 2
PAC 505 - Professional Seminar I 1
PAC 506 - Integrating Seminar I 1
PAC 509 - Integrated Clinical Medicine I 1
PAC 511 - Health Promotion Disease Prevention 2
PAC 520 - Behavioral Science 2
Semester total 13

Fall

September - December (15 weeks)
PAC 513 - Clinical Assessment II 1
PAC 516 - Integrating Seminar II 1
PAC 517 - Microbiology 3
PAC 518 - Pharmacology I 3
PAC 519 - Integrated Clinical Medicine II 10
PAC 522 - Integrated Geriatric Practicum I 1
PAC 541 - Epidemiology 1
Semester total 20

Spring

January - May (20 weeks)
PAC 510 - Professional and Ethical Issues for Healthcare Providers 2
PAC 533 - Clinical Assessment III 2
PAC 536 - Integrating Seminar III 1
PAC 537 - Emergency Medicine and Surgery 4
PAC 538 - Pharmacology II 2
PAC 539 - Integrated Clinical Medicine III 10
PAC 540 - Integrated Geriatrics Practicum II 1
PAC 544 - Application of Research in Clinical Practice 3

Semester total 25

Spring II - Summer II

June - June (12 months)
Clinical Rotations
PAC 600 - Internal Medicine (6 Weeks) 6
PAC 601 - Internal Medicine (6 Weeks) 6
PAC 602 - Emergency Medicine (6 Weeks) 6
PAC 603 - Surgery (6 Weeks) 6
PAC 607 - Family Medicine I (6 Weeks) 6
PAC 608 - Family Medicine II (6 Weeks) 6
PAC 612 - Primary Care Selective 6
PAC 613 - Specialty Selective 6
PAC 611 - Rotation Seminars 2
PAC 620 - Preparation for Clinical Practice 1
PAC 624 - Application of Research in Clinical Practice II 1
Semester Total 52
 
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Fist midlevels and now specialty training of physicians is in question. Who do we trust?

I know what you're saying on some level, but hasn't the latitude afforded to PA's been a success? As another poster pointed out, PA's are supervised with respect to their skills. They are an extension of the physician. I guess if the physician's practice is poor, the PA's services and practice will be similar in nature. If the PA takes another position with a "good" doc, the new expectations will likely follow.

What I don't understand is how a practitioner can specialize without ever having generalist training. Making PA's complete 2000 hours in one discipline in school would eliminate the generalist training they receive. I guess the theory is that the PA is a generalist and this has allowed them to cross specialties under the supervision of a physician who has met the entry level standards in their specialty. If indeed that physician is still a quack, I'm not sure how this really has much to do with the PA and really can't appreciate the impact this would have.

How would you know that person was a quack unless you had been formally trained in that particular specialty?
 
QUOTE]The PA should complete 2000 hours in primary care and then they should spend another 2000 hours in a particular specialty. They need a foundation on which to build. The training should be done in a university setting, otherwise you won't know if you are being trained properly. There are plenty of specialists (majority of them trained in foreign countries) who have no business practicing medicine, much less training someone else to do it. If a PA student is a nurse (BSN), then they probably won't need to complete those PC hours, they could go straight to the specialty programs. There are nursing students at the hospital I'm at and they seem to get a well rounded rotation.

One more thing and this really irks me. All mid-levels should obtain a minimum of a MS degree. I can't believe there are programs that actually allow someone with a BS or (GOD FORBID) an AS degree to practice medicine! WE NEED TO PROMOTE EDUCATION. MEDICINE ISN'T A "VO-TECH" SCIENCE!
 
Below is a PAC curriculum that I have just reviewed:

Course/Program Area Credits
Summer I
June - August (10 weeks)

PAC 500 - Anatomy 4
PAC 503 - Clinical Assessment I 2
PAC 505 - Professional Seminar I 1
PAC 506 - Integrating Seminar I 1
PAC 509 - Integrated Clinical Medicine I 1
PAC 511 - Health Promotion Disease Prevention 2
PAC 520 - Behavioral Science 2
Semester total 13

Fall

September - December (15 weeks)
PAC 513 - Clinical Assessment II 1
PAC 516 - Integrating Seminar II 1
PAC 517 - Microbiology 3
PAC 518 - Pharmacology I 3
PAC 519 - Integrated Clinical Medicine II 10
PAC 522 - Integrated Geriatric Practicum I 1
PAC 541 - Epidemiology 1
Semester total 20

Spring

January - May (20 weeks)
PAC 510 - Professional and Ethical Issues for Healthcare Providers 2
PAC 533 - Clinical Assessment III 2
PAC 536 - Integrating Seminar III 1
PAC 537 - Emergency Medicine and Surgery 4
PAC 538 - Pharmacology II 2
PAC 539 - Integrated Clinical Medicine III 10
PAC 540 - Integrated Geriatrics Practicum II 1
PAC 544 - Application of Research in Clinical Practice 3

Semester total 25

Spring II - Summer II

June - June (12 months)
Clinical Rotations
PAC 600 - Internal Medicine (6 Weeks) 6
PAC 601 - Internal Medicine (6 Weeks) 6
PAC 602 - Emergency Medicine (6 Weeks) 6
PAC 603 - Surgery (6 Weeks) 6
PAC 607 - Family Medicine I (6 Weeks) 6
PAC 608 - Family Medicine II (6 Weeks) 6
PAC 612 - Primary Care Selective 6
PAC 613 - Specialty Selective 6
PAC 611 - Rotation Seminars 2
PAC 620 - Preparation for Clinical Practice 1
PAC 624 - Application of Research in Clinical Practice II 1
Semester Total 52

Is this a MS degree? If so where is the research? I see application of research, don't most Masters degrees have a research/theory course followed by a committee/thesis?
 
PAC 517 - Microbiology 3
PAC 518 - Pharmacology I 3


I'm a little worried that these aren't advanced courses. Do you guys seriously only get one semester of pharmacology? HANG ONTO YOUR PDA! The microbiology should have been completed in the undergraduate program. I'm assuming this program grants a MS degree, right?
 
we had a year of pharm taught by md, pharmd's(the same ones who taught the year long md course).
I have a masters. I did write a thesis. it was published as a cme of the month section in a prominent medical journal.
 
I'm not an expert on the nursing profession either, but I have read on some of the forums that they do specialize. I'm assuming they get more than 4 weeks of training in their chosen field or at least I hope so! I believe they also have to return to school in order to get certified in other specialties. So, for a NP to be a generalist, they would have to get all those letters after their name...ABCDEFGHIJ etc. :laugh: Sorry, couldn't resist that one! I can't imagine that this is financially feasible though, because they would probably end up spending 10 years in school.
You sure have a lot of opinions about "other professions". You make a lot of broad statements that PA's should do this, and NP's should do that - fortunately for us peons that aren't in medical school, YOU don't get to make the rules.

There are only a handful of true nursing specialties - CRNA, CNM, and NP are the biggies. Within the NP realm come a few further other options such as peds, family practice, etc. Nurse anesthetists and midwives have very formal curricula that run 2-3 years. NP programs are far more variable, and some are worth more than others - the "standards" are not set near as well.
 
Is this a MS degree? If so where is the research? I see application of research, don't most Masters degrees have a research/theory course followed by a committee/thesis?
A master's degree doesn't automatically imply research. MD, DO, DPM, MMSc, OD, MSN are all "practice-oriented" degrees. Some have a research component, some don't. This is one of the hot debates with the DNP (Doctorate in Nursing PRACTICE) - it shouldn't be confused with a PhD in Nursing.
 
I'm a little worried that these aren't advanced courses. Do you guys seriously only get one semester of pharmacology? HANG ONTO YOUR PDA! The microbiology should have been completed in the undergraduate program. I'm assuming this program grants a MS degree, right?
If you took the time to read further in the post you would see Pharmacology II. And if you look at the course #'s, 500 and 600 level courses generally indicate graduate-level coursework. I took biochemistry in college, a senior level course. I took it again in graduate school, but at a higher level of detail and understanding.

Didn't you ever take anatomy or physiology in college? Wait - you're taking it (or took it) in med school, right? Why did you take it again?

In fact, I just glanced at Emory's med school curriculum - among other things, it includes Anatomy, Embryology, Biochemistry, Physiology, Cell Biology and Histology, and Microbiology - all of which I took in college. Do you think I would be able to exempt any of those because I took them in college? Hmmmm, I don't think so.
 
A master's degree doesn't automatically imply research. MD, DO, DPM, MMSc, OD, MSN are all "practice-oriented" degrees. Some have a research component, some don't. This is one of the hot debates with the DNP (Doctorate in Nursing PRACTICE) - it shouldn't be confused with a PhD in Nursing.

I am aware of the non-research of MD, DO, DPM. I am wondering about the PA masters program described several posts ago. From what I have seen a MS with nursing always has a research/theory didiactic, the DNP will also have research/theory class followed by research or clinical application. Do you know of MS programs without research
 
we had a year of pharm taught by md, pharmd's(the same ones who taught the year long md course).
I have a masters. I did write a thesis. it was published as a cme of the month section in a prominent medical journal.

Usually a thesis isn't used for CME, at least not in the form submitted to a graduate school. How many credits was your thesis? Was your thesis original research? I am trying to figure out how a thesis is designed to meet the needs for a CME publication. I am aware of “master’s projects” resulting in useful information fro clinicians. I wish more graduate projects/thesis resulted in CME or other useful information for PAs
 
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I'm a little worried that these aren't advanced courses. Do you guys seriously only get one semester of pharmacology? HANG ONTO YOUR PDA! The microbiology should have been completed in the undergraduate program. I'm assuming this program grants a MS degree, right?

Baylee,

It's as though you have no understanding of anything. Do you understand the difference b/t an academic degree and a professional (vo-tech) degree.

First, medicine is a vocation.....There is no such thing as an academic (PhD) degree in medicine! Medicine is simply a sampling of the sciences.
Second, the degree which is granted means nothing
Third, the name of the course means nothing.

You do understand that professional "masters" (MS) degrees typically don't require a thesis and defense. They typically require research credits and a capstone project which is not a "thesis" as it is known in academia. As you can see the above curriculum includes research credits which are starkly different than a scholarly project intended to create original knowledge. Despite the fact that the curriculum I posted isn't an "academic" degree, it does award a "masters"........ The same is true of medical school, but they award a clinical/professional doctorate degree……not an academic degree…
 
I am aware of the non-research of MD, DO, DPM. I am wondering about the PA masters program described several posts ago. From what I have seen a MS with nursing always has a research/theory didiactic, the DNP will also have research/theory class followed by research or clinical application. Do you know of MS programs without research

Just as a side note, most undergraduate programs have a research didactic...As you probably know, this isn't comparable to a thesis and defense paper/publication.
 
Usually a thesis isn't used for CME, at least not in the form submitted to a graduate school. How many credits was your thesis? Was your thesis original research? I am trying to figure out how a thesis is designed to meet the needs for a CME publication. I am aware of “master’s projects” resulting in useful information fro clinicians. I wish more graduate projects/thesis resulted in CME or other useful information for PAs

16 UNITS. ORIGINAL RESEARCH.
it was on a topic in emergent airway management.
md/do/pa/np folks could read the article in the journal, complete a cme post test and receive an hour of cat 1 cme credit.
 
If you took the time to read further in the post you would see Pharmacology II. And if you look at the course #'s, 500 and 600 level courses generally indicate graduate-level coursework. I took biochemistry in college, a senior level course. I took it again in graduate school, but at a higher level of detail and understanding.

Didn't you ever take anatomy or physiology in college? Wait - you're taking it (or took it) in med school, right? Why did you take it again?

In fact, I just glanced at Emory's med school curriculum - among other things, it includes Anatomy, Embryology, Biochemistry, Physiology, Cell Biology and Histology, and Microbiology - all of which I took in college. Do you think I would be able to exempt any of those because I took them in college? Hmmmm, I don't think so.

I didn't bother to read the course numbers, etc. I'll bet the curriculum at those certificate level/BS level PA programs are very different from the one you posted.

It sounds like you are implying that PA's take the same anatomy course that medical students take, you're kidding right?

Please tell me what percentage of PA's actually have a Master's degree?
 
Is this a MS degree? If so where is the research? I see application of research, don't most Masters degrees have a research/theory course followed by a committee/thesis?

If you have more of an academic background versus the vocational, this may seem somewhat unorthodox. I still struggle with vocational programs awarding graduate degrees, but in the health professions, there has been a proliferation of non-thesis/non-research degree's created at the mercy of professional organization accreditation mandates.

In my judgement, since professional programs don't require a scholarly component, they should award certificates or the like as opposed to diluting the graduate curiculae.

To answer your question, this is a "masters degree". Their is no research...just narritive research courses....probably to condition the student to critically review the literature. This is consistant across vocational programs.
 
I didn't bother to read the course numbers, etc. I'll bet the curriculum at those certificate level/BS level PA programs are very different from the one you posted.

It sounds like you are implying that PA's take the same anatomy course that medical students take, you're kidding right?

Please tell me what percentage of PA's actually have a Master's degree?


What is a master's degree to you?

PA education is a 24-28 month program
Medicine is a 40 ish month program
PT is a 3 year program

It doesn't matter if they award an associates degree, masters, bachelors, or certificate......it's the same curriculum where the same knowledge and skills are acquired. From what I understand, in Europe, medical school is a bachelors program. You must be in high school.....
 
16 UNITS. ORIGINAL RESEARCH.
it was on a topic in emergent airway management.
md/do/pa/np folks could read the article in the journal, complete a cme post test and receive an hour of cat 1 cme credit.

16 units? is that equal to 16 semester credits? That is very intense for a Masters degree. Most Masters disquisitions are 4-10 credits for a thesis and 2-6 for a project.
 
If you have more of an academic background versus the vocational, this may seem somewhat unorthodox. I still struggle with vocational programs awarding graduate degrees, but in the health professions, there has been a proliferation of non-thesis/non-research degree's created at the mercy of professional organization accreditation mandates.

In my judgement, since professional programs don't require a scholarly component, they should award certificates or the like as opposed to diluting the graduate curiculae.

To answer your question, this is a "masters degree". Their is no research...just narritive research courses....probably to condition the student to critically review the literature. This is consistant across vocational programs.

If I understand things, than there is a significant difference between a Masters for a PA and a NP ? The PA is a vocational professional degree and the NP is an academic degree. Maybe the PA curriculum posted was not representative of the typical PA Masters ?
 
I didn't bother to read the course numbers, etc. I'll bet the curriculum at those certificate level/BS level PA programs are very different from the one you posted.

It sounds like you are implying that PA's take the same anatomy course that medical students take, you're kidding right?

Please tell me what percentage of PA's actually have a Master's degree?
You really should educate yourself more before displaying your total lack of knowledge. Your arrogance is irritating.

Some PA's do in fact take med school anatomy. When I took physiology in my AA program, I took med school physiology WITH the med students. Same exact class, exams, and course # on my transcript. Really - I'm not kidding - right? Duh.......

I can't quote you a percentage, but an increasing number of PA programs are moving to a master's degree. I'm not sure any of the old original certificate programs remain.

Why are you so hung up on this issue? Inferiority complex? Trying to prove that you who are still a student know more than those of us who are actually in practice?
 
16 units? is that equal to 16 semester credits? That is very intense for a Masters degree. Most Masters disquisitions are 4-10 credits for a thesis and 2-6 for a project.
16 quarter units.so that probably= about 12 semester units.took me a few months to research and write.
 
If I understand things, than there is a significant difference between a Masters for a PA and a NP ? The PA is a vocational professional degree and the NP is an academic degree. Maybe the PA curriculum posted was not representative of the typical PA Masters ?

There are 2 types of masters degrees in nursing. Usually (not necessarily always), the MSN (master of science in nursing) requires a thesis and defense. This is original knowledge or can replicate previous research that has not yet been replicated (it is understood that, in order for research to generate new knowledge, the research must be repeatable with similar results). The MN (master of nursing) does not always require a thesis and defense, but a practice project instead.
 
You really should educate yourself more before displaying your total lack of knowledge. Your arrogance is irritating.

Some PA's do in fact take med school anatomy. When I took physiology in my AA program, I took med school physiology WITH the med students. Same exact class, exams, and course # on my transcript. Really - I'm not kidding - right? Duh.......

I can't quote you a percentage, but an increasing number of PA programs are moving to a master's degree. I'm not sure any of the old original certificate programs remain.

Why are you so hung up on this issue? Inferiority complex? Trying to prove that you who are still a student know more than those of us who are actually in practice?

You've got the market cornered on "arrogance," that's for sure! Just remember Mr. PA, until you get MD after your name, you will always need the likes of me to co-sign your charts! You will ALWAYS practice under the almighty DOCTOR!
 
You really should educate yourself more before displaying your total lack of knowledge. Your arrogance is irritating.

Some PA's do in fact take med school anatomy. When I took physiology in my AA program, I took med school physiology WITH the med students. Same exact class, exams, and course # on my transcript. Really - I'm not kidding - right? Duh.......

I can't quote you a percentage, but an increasing number of PA programs are moving to a master's degree. I'm not sure any of the old original certificate programs remain.

Why are you so hung up on this issue? Inferiority complex? Trying to prove that you who are still a student know more than those of us who are actually in practice?

Wait a minute, I thought you were a PA. I'm a little confused as to how you know so much about the PA curriculum, since you are a AA. JC buddy, you can't even PRACTICE in the majority of states! Sounds like that "inferiority complex" belongs to YOU!
 
BAYLEE,

YES, PAs and Med students often take the same anatomy class. My gross anatomy class was taught by an MD who had a Masters in Anatomy..on our practicals, he could put that dang pin anywhere on the body, and we had to know what it was (ex: brachial plexus and what muscles it innervated) ....TOTALLY different than undergrad. And guess what? PA STUDENTS CAN DISSECT CADAVERS TOO!:eek:
 
BAYLEE,

YES, PAs and Med students often take the same anatomy class. My gross anatomy class was taught by an MD who had a Masters in Anatomy..on our practicals, he could put that dang pin anywhere on the body, and we had to know what it was (ex: brachial plexus and what muscles it innervated) ....TOTALLY different than undergrad. And guess what? PA STUDENTS CAN DISSECT CADAVERS TOO!:eek:
Yeah, RIGHT, you guys can practice as a pathologist too!
 
This link is directed to a password-protected page.
sorry...it's an article about the many pa's who serve as assistant coroners in new york city and the prominent role they had in the i.d. of the wtc victims after 9/11.
 
That's great, but in order to be objective about it, you need to post the article in its entirety.
I tried but it's in a format that does not allow me to copy it directly. will keep working on it
 
I tried but it's in a format that does not allow me to copy it directly. will keep working on it
Try this:
For Joanne Feliciano and the five other physician assistants with whom she works, typing information into a computer is never mundane. Each entry is another holy step toward reuniting a name with a body, a body with a family — toward solving nearly 20,000 human mysteries.

Today, one of those secrets unfolds, a development that illuminates Feliciano’s already pleasant face with a unique, odd joy.

Wedged into a converted conference room by computer terminals and dangling wires, Feliciano is bringing to a close case #DM01-9915. In the parlance of the New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner (OCME), where she works as a medicolegal investigator (MLI), the prefix stands for Disaster Manhattan 2001 — and if that doesn’t ring a bell, then September 11 is just a square on a calendar. Until now, 9915 was a “link,” a number assigned to a humerus bone that was found in November in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center that killed 2,823 people.

Matching a name to body part 9915 (of 19,620 total) constitutes a victory.

Today, a laboratory that contracts with OCME finally determined that a scraping from the bone matched a DNA sample taken from the female victim’s toothbrush and another one given by a surviving relative.

So first thing tomorrow morning, a staffanthropologist and a PA will exit the building, passing the black crepe draped from the roof and the American and city flags still flying athalf-mast. They’ll enter a refrigerated tractor trailer parked nearby, locate the humerus in a red box or black body bag that rests inside on long wooden planks, and match it again to data collected. With that, OCME will amend the death certificate to reflect the body’s identification; the family, like many others, had been granted an expedited, court-approved document on the assumption that the victim might never be found.

Then OCME will telephone the police department, which will arrange for an officer to deliver the news personally to the family: Your relative is confirmed dead; you now have a person to bury.

Families of 1,746 people might pray for such a visit and never get it. As of May 21, when OCME allowed an AAPA News reporter to visit, only 1,077 victims had been identified. (That number has since increased by 82.) “It’s great. It’s wonderful, wonderful, wonderful,” exclaimed Feliciano, a former emergency room PA, who interacts daily with World Trade Center victims’ relatives. Being “very attached” to those seeking updates on the investigations, she said, makes her “really want to give something back.” “I can bring a piece of someone’s loved one home. … I’m ecstatic. I’m happy. It’s a good feeling knowing that I can make a difference.”

Part 1
 
thanks david. how did you get it to copy? it's in adobe format.
I found something related that copies.
this is the home page of a p.a. who is a county coroner and has served in that capacity since 1977. click on the links on his page.
http://www.jameslkramer.com/ny.html
 
Part 2

Schomburg, a physician assistant, arrived from Long Island’s Suffolk County facility. They continued what had worked there — hiring PAs, whose broad medical training and ability to think creatively made them ideal candidates to investigate deaths.

In only two other municipalities do PAs conduct forensic investigations: Nassau County, New York, and Washington, D.C. Everywhere else, coroners and funeral parlor operators handle investigations and autopsies.

In New York, PAs helped tame an unwieldy operation. They became the gatekeepers for OCME, consulting (usually by telephone) with area hospitals to determine whether a death ought to be investigated. Within the first few years that led to a drop in the number of annual deaths that had to be

reported, from 40,000 to 18,000; and in autopsies performed, from 14,000 to 6,000 — all the while, according to Schomburg, maintaining strict standards. It also saves $3 million yearly. “Since 1989, we have investigated more than 250,000 deaths. We have not had to dig up any one of their mistakes,” he said of his PAs. “They’re very cost-effective. They become experts at what they do.” Schomburg, whose mellow demeanor earns unanimous praise from his staff, employs 39 PAs as MLIs: professionals who investigate deaths in cases of accident, illness, foul play, or the deceased’s being alone. nvestigative skills are taught at a year-long OCME training program; inquisitiveness and cool thinking cannot be taught, Schomburg believes. Most PAs worked an average six years in trauma or emergency medicine. Thirty-six forensic pathologists conduct all of OCME’s autopsies.

Following the terrorist attacks, OCME hired 15 more PAs, raising the staffing level to what Schomburg figured it should have been all along. None of the PAs interviewed for this story expected to land here, but they all found forensic medicine a pleasant surprise. The work stimulates them and they
have drawn close to each other. Feliciano dismissed any squeamishness over dealing with corpses: “I think working in an ER probably helped because I’ve seen it all.” Dennis Cavalli saw it all, too: severed limbs, torsos, animal remains mixed with human. For more than eight months, Cavalli, an MLI in the Bronx office, was posted at the World Trade Center site, summoned
whenever rescue personnel located victims beneath the girders and concrete.
Cavalli — and the nine other PAs on double- shift, round-the-clock duty there — dug with them, ensuring that bodies were removed intact and that identification and evidence escaped tampering by well-meaning, grief-stricken workers. “We always tried to make sure everything was done the right way, by the book,” he said.


Most OCME PAs estimate that two more years might be required to finish identifying the World Trade Center victims. They know that some people will never be found, but they mean to do the best job possible. In a trailer recently installed outside OCME by Kenyon International, a Texas company with expertise in preserving body tissue for DNA testing, is a placard reading:
“Remember: Accuracy, Not Speed.” Indeed,OCME stressed meticulousness from the beginning. Identification of dead firefighters wearing uniform jackets proceeded cautiously because so many had grabbed at anything while leaping into trucks to hasten downtown that fateful morning. “You might have had a guy named Jones throwing on the gear of a guy named Robertson,” explained Deputy Director of Investigations Barbara Butcher, a PA. “We had very, very narrow criteria for when a wallet was considered part of the body, [like] if you had a full body that was badly damaged and he had a wedding band on that read RR Loves BD, and his wallet said Robert Robertson. But then we’d confirm it with dental records and we’d put him in a ‘Presumed to Be’ grouping. Those we could identify quickly we’d move through quickly, while
maintaining the integrity of the identification.” Almost the entire September 11 project is a product of PAs. Schomburg, who had managed fires and plane crash sites before, established modular triage-intake stations in the garage.

Another deputy director of investigations, PA Shiya Ribowsky, modified, with the computer operations personnel, a VIP (Victim Identification Profile) program for storing all data, including every contact with victims’ relatives. PAs run a DNA hotline and a family hotline, process death certificates, and collect and store completed victim-information forms (about 40,000 so far) — all shoehorned into the conference room, which functions roundthe- clock, day after day. A sign in the room reads, lest anyone forget their mission:
Today is Monday, May 20, 2002 WTC Day 251 AA Flt 587 Day 190
PAs also manage a huge shipping operation. DNA kits are ever in transit to and from families who can’t stop by. Embassies of 88 nations frequently contact OCME because relatives want to visit, or to arrange for DNA samples to be transferred through diplomatic channels. Multiple bar code labels have to be printed, affixed to samples and to envelopes, and tracked.


“We’ve not let the impossible stand in our way. We’ve exploited new technology to the max, in the way things are done and should be done,” said Schomburg. “We’re the largest medical examiner’s office in the country, and we have a responsibility, in being large, to be good.” The operation is so sensitive that the entire block of East 30th Street alongside OCME is closed to the public. The day of the attacks, Schomburg ordered six tractor trailers as emergency morgues. Their spots on the street were soon taken by emporary structures housing the dental ID unit, chaplaincy, city police, Port Authority police, fire department, emergency medical services, and OCME’s mortuary unit. Those temporary structures are still there.
❧❧❧❧❧
A widow and her two adult sons are escorted to Room 106, the one with
“Family ID” taped to the door. The room is just off the main reception area, where visitors confront three horizontal rows of letters and drawings sent from schoolchildren and Scout troops. One message, dated September 18, spelling errors and all, could apply to OCME as much as to the firefighters to whom it’s addressed: “Good luck finding bodys of people and cleaning up the rebel. … Thank you for helping outwith this tradgety. From, Rebecca.”
The family has come in from Lake Ronkonkoma, New York, to initiate the lengthy process that may confirm their loved one’s death. They are calm, politely asking what they might learn eventually, how the DNA tests work, and, most importantly, when word will come. The missing person was a fire department chief; the two sons are firefighters, too. A newly hired OCME PA, Susan Messler, sits with them, as does Rudi Riet, a former Utah homicide detective who is on a federal Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team now helping out. Messler and Riet place a box of cotton swabs on the table, careful not to touch any. “I want you to take the swab out and rub it on the inside of your cheek eight or 10 times. We’re going after skin cells,” Riet instructs them. “Then repeat the process with the second cheek. Our experience is that we’ll get good DNA from this.” The three comply, drop their swabs into the boxes they’ve assembled, and seal them. The OCME family also has been DNAtested. PA Austin Epstein lost an uncle when American Airlines flight 587 crashed into the man’s home in Queens last November. His cousins gave DNA samples; the uncle’s remains were identified in this very building through dental records. All 265 people killed in the crash were accounted for within 30 days, although many body parts have yet to be identified.
 
Our gross anatomy course was the same taught to the medical students as well. Same faculty, same tests, etc.

I have a feeling no matter how much information we post about PA education and training, it just wont matter to some. Most people are going to believe what they wish to believe, regardless of whatever information we might give them.

I've noticed a lot of condescending attitudes on these forums and I find very little of that in real life.

Sure, there are some MD's, RN's and patients, etc. that have a knee jerk reaction to PA's. However, the vast majority of the people I have worked with have evaluated me fairly based upon my abilities and knowledge and that is what counts.

-Mike
 
Part 3

“I can empathize with these people,” Epstein said of World Trade Center victims’ families, “because I know what it’s like.” The September 11 catastrophe hit several individuals at OCME. A part-time communications
clerk lost his mother, leaving him to raise younger siblings. The office immediately elevated him to full-time status, helped to complete insurance claims, and raised funds to pay the next month’s mortgage. Hirsch and PA Diane Crisci were badly injured by debris when the north tower collapsed. A forensic scientist and an anthropologist were hurt, too. Schomburg lost a neighbor. Butcher knew a policeman. “I think the greatest thing that I’ve done is not climbing through the rubble or examining bodies. It’s talking to the families,” said Butcher. “When I speak to them, I’m very blunt. I don’t shy away from words like ‘exploded,’ ‘burnt,’ ‘fragments.’ I tell them the truth about what happened. I don’t give anybody false hope — no platitudes, that everything’s going to be okay. It’s not.” Embracing the traumatized families is
simultaneously draining and rewarding for the PAs. Ribowsky meets every two weeks with the six major groups representing families, reporting, “almost as if they’re our board of directors, on our progress, on problems we’ve faced, and what we’re doing about them.” The entire endeavor, he said, is “a labor
of love.”

Yet the post-September 11 emotional tug of war between investment and withdrawal is so intense that Feliciano is looking forward to taking “a breather” soon with fellow PA MLI Carla DeVito. Some breather. It will put them on the street for a month, investigating death scenes, staring
at and prodding lifeless beings. Caring so deeply for the families contributes
toward the PAs’ ability to perform “superior” work, Schomburg believes. Hirsch said he is “very proud” of the MLIs’ work both before and since September 11,
lauding them as being “not only good technically, but they’re sensitive.” “There are times I’ve walked into Dr. Hirsch’s office after meeting with a family and said I feel like crying,” related Feliciano. “He said, ‘That’s okay. I’d worry if you didn’t. That would mean you didn’t have a heart.’ ” Schomburg understands. “You see these [PAs], passionate about what they’re doing,” he said. “The National Funeral Directors Association told me that the way we’re
storing information on the dead changed the level of caring in their industry. It is a very nice compliment.” Surviving families are not brought into the conference room, but for three hours every day can tour the building, and could visit the World Trade Center site until it was ceremonially closed May 30. PAs also encourage them to come in and discuss their cases face-to-face, rather than converse by telephone.

“One of the things we’ve learned is that the families are thirsty for information and see us as an oasis. Our job is to keep them informed,” says Ribowsky.
❧❧❧❧❧
Every Friday at 1:00 p.m., a rabbi and a priest lead a brief service for OCME staff. It takes place down the street at a spot called Memorial Park, a white tent soaring 65 feet and spanning the width of the next block. Memorial Park is OCME’s emotional epicenter. Sixteen tractor trailers repose symmetrically inside, eight per line, tent material fitted snugly around each. Diesel engines hum, powering the trailers’ refrigeration. Wreaths and urns sprouting silk flowers greet anyone ascending the ramp or six wooden steps leading to each truck’s back door. Spent candles left by relatives brush against floor plants. One glass honors firefighter John J. Tipping II; his remains would be identified the next week. Among the hundreds of scrawled messages filling a wall outside is a printed quote from the late Lubavitch Rabbi Menachem Mendel
Schneerson: “Your life is G-d’s way of saying that you matter. You have a contribution to make that no single person can accomplish but you.”

At the Memorial Park service, the clerics offer tributes to the fallen. An OCME
employee, a gospel singer, croons Amazing Grace. The service “helps us to remember why we’re all here, and how important it is to get everybody’s loved ones home to them,” said DeVito.

Staff are notified whenever a hearse arrives to take someone home for burial,
the identification process complete. Many step outside to observe. More prayers are recited. All remains depart draped in an American flag because Schomburg, who was an Army PA, considers each victim a war hero. “I thought it was important for people who work here to see the accomplishment, to see people go home with dignityand honor,” he said. “Otherwise, they won’t resolve their experience.” When remains of a member of the service(MOS) leave, OCME and fellow MOS officials form an honor cordon and salute. “Those people who ran in [to the burningtowers] — they knew they would die. Damned right I’m going to salute,” stated Butcher.
❧❧❧❧❧
Schomburg knows that the work will go on for the forseeable future. A routine settled in long ago. Scores of experts from across the country who had come to assist are back home, and others replaced them. Sal’s Café, a tented cafeteria that the Salvation Army erected across from Memorial Park and that quickly became the workers’ social center, will soon be dismantled. “I miss some of it already. Some people came, did their part, and left,” he said, standing near a police barrier, the First Avenue traffic roaring by. “Sometime it’ll return to normal, and that’ll be fine. People on the outside will never fully understand what we’ve been through, because they weren’t here.
“Some people can sing. I can’t sing. My talent is organizational skill and how to get things done. “Some days, I’d rather be singing.”
 
Part 4

Sidebars
I'd Have Been in It Sooner,'Says PA Investigator

Growing up in New York, Barbara Butcher had unconventional passions. At age nine, she'd swing into hurricane-preparedness mode, stocking the basement with candles, batteries, food, water, and comic books. She also liked using her microscope and dissecting kit. Her gift of choice was … well, dead animals. Butcher's fascination with details and with death ultimately led her to the New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner (OCME), where she is deputy director of investigations. She has devoted nearly all her time since September 11 to OCME's Herculean task of recovering and identifying all the remains of people killed in last September's terrorist attacks at the World Trade Center.

Butcher became a PA in 1979 and worked in surgery in St. Barnabas
Hospital in the Bronx, where she loved the freneticism, the variety of cases, and, most of all, her patients. The heartache of losing sick people was too much, though. So she returned to school for a master's in public health. There a career counselor suggested two specializations that would take less of an emotional toll on her: veterinary medicine, specifically, "working with chickens, because they're not cute, they're nasty, so I wouldn't get attached to them," joked Butcher, and forensic investigations, because "dead people you don't get attached to," either. In an informational interview with OCME Director of Investigations David Schomburg, Butcher discovered her calling:

working for him as a medicolegal investigator. She has been at OCME 11 years, the longest she's ever held a job. Butcher, 51, loves the camaraderie with cops, firefighters (she is a volunteer firefighter), and emergency medical services personnel. She has met them at all too many death scenes, always looking for clues that betray the seemingly obvious conclusion. "I love investigating, figuring out what happened," she said. Like the time police in Harlem figured that a small hole in a man's forehead and shell casings from a .22 at the top of the apartment building's stairs attested to his being shot to death. But Butcher didn't find an abrasion, typical of gunshot wounds, surrounding the hole at the corner of the gash. So she stepped out to the alley and noticed tin cans with pings and holes. She surmised that kids had practiced shooting at the cans from the hallway — thus, the casings. Butcher returned inside and found tiny blood spots and bits of skin on a sharp indentation of the molding at the bottom of the stairs. She concluded that the man had fallen down the steps, drunk, and split his head on the molding. The autopsy supported her conclusion.

In searching for truth, Butcher hasflown in police helicopters, rappelled down Manhattan's bedrock, ferreted into nooks of railway tunnels to locate thebodies of homeless "mole" people, and testified in court. What Butcher won't do is investigate the deaths of those she knows — not that it would be too taxing, but because her findings could be called into question.
"I speak for people who can't speak for themselves," she stated, her clear enunciation consequence of a long-ago course on losing one's Brooklyn accent. "I have a narrow set of skills that very few people have: a medical background, detachment, and a certain degree of the courage needed
to view the mind-boggling things that peoplecan do to each other. We find justice.


OCME: Not Just Forensics, but Public Health,

By Hillel Kuttler
In the 1990s a seemingly healthy young man was found dead on his apartment floor in a newly renovated Manhattan building, a broken glass nearby. The medicolegal investigator (MLI) from the city's Office of the Chief Medical Examiner (OCME) thought he might have died from a cardiac arrhythmia, but the residence showed no signs of foul play, drugs, or alcohol.
The MLI suspected that the man might have been about to place the glass in a faulty dishwasher. OCME Director of Medicolegal Investigations David Schomburg assigned a staff architect to assist in the case. He determined that the dishwasher was misinstalled and miswired, and was potential lethal time bomb, that if you touched the metal handle you'd get electrocuted," said Schomburg. As a result, all the building's dishwashers were checked, "and we found 15 to 20 that were not installed properly" — all by an unlicensed electrician who'd been hired to handle some of the renovations.

"At that very moment, people were instructed to immediately shut off all their dishwashers until they were inspected by a qualified electrician. That prevented a lot of deaths." Another time, an ill child died in a hospital. OCME examined his body and concluded that he died not of the illness, but of compression asphyxia. An MLI interviewed hospital personnel and discovered that the boy had been in an electrically operated bed. It turned out he'd been playing with the controls and had closed the bed on himself, dying of a compressed chest. OCME alerted federal agencies, which confirmed that the bed model had been previously recalled. A nationwide alert led to its being banned from pediatric wards.

Those cases exemplify OCME's role as a guardian of public health, beyond investigating the deaths of individulls. Solving murders might be the popular image of forensics professionals projected by the 1970s television program Quincy. But MLIs' jobs, while less dramatic, have a broader scope. "Most people think we're a Dead House: bodies come in one door and go out with a death certificate," said Schomburg, a PA like the other 39 MLIs on his staff.
"We are involved in public health. We monitor who is dying of what and how often. If there's a new strain of tuberculosis, we're going to know." The most noteworthy alert OCME issued in the past 20 years was that the cause of a pattern of deaths attributed to intravenous drug use was not the drugs, but an infection — the HIV virus. "We have our fingers on the pulse of
the public's health, although for us it's a still pulse," said Schomburg, resorting to a line he admitted he uses often. Investigators' recommendations may be as simple as alerting authorities to details observed at a death scene:
blocked fire exits, missing window guards. If someone died of carbon monoxide poisoning in a building's basement due to a faulty heating plant, then other residents are at risk and the building must be evacuated.
"Obviously, any time we think we've had a positive effect on public health and safety, we're pleased," Schomburg stated. "We probably, more than anyone else, realize the fragility of life. I'm known for saying this: Life is short; eat dessert first."
 
thanks david. how did you get it to copy? it's in adobe format.
I found something related that copies.
this is the home page of a p.a. who is a county coroner and has served in that capacity since 1977. click on the links on his page.
http://www.jameslkramer.com/ny.html

If you have the full version of adobe you can copy text. Just have to fit the formatting which sucks.

Dave
 
Our gross anatomy course was the same taught to the medical students as well. Same faculty, same tests, etc.

I have a feeling no matter how much information we post about PA education and training, it just wont matter to some. Most people are going to believe what they wish to believe, regardless of whatever information we might give them.

I've noticed a lot of condescending attitudes on these forums and I find very little of that in real life.

Sure, there are some MD's, RN's and patients, etc. that have a knee jerk reaction to PA's. However, the vast majority of the people I have worked with have evaluated me fairly based upon my abilities and knowledge and that is what counts.

-Mike

In the long run it doesn't really matter. It's more about the patients and physicians that understand you than the ones that don't. We get a few patients that only want to be seen by the doctor. That's fine. 4 weeks to see a physician one week to see me. If they want to wait that's fine by me. I get a lot of direct referrals from physicians because they know they can call and I'll see their patient right away. In the end it's all about the same thing - taking care of patients.

The funny thing is when you see someone try to change. There is another group that badmouths the PA's in our group on a regular basis. However, they see our doc's going home at 4 or 5 when they are staying until nine. Now they have a PA shock suprise. Gonna be fun to see how they explain that.

Dave
 
16 quarter units.so that probably= about 12 semester units.took me a few months to research and write.

You were able to complete 12 semester credits of research in a few months that must have been intense. Writing a proposal, defending the proposal, going to IRB and receiving approval, collecting data, data analysis and discussion followed by another defense and more revision after the final defense before submission to the graduate school. Friends I know of have taken a few months just for the data analysis and final defense. They usually had other courses which may explain the extra time, but they all had less than a total of 7 semester hours of thesis credit.
 
You were able to complete 12 semester credits of research in a few months that must have been intense. Writing a proposal, defending the proposal, going to IRB and receiving approval, collecting data, data analysis and discussion followed by another defense and more revision after the final defense before submission to the graduate school. Friends I know of have taken a few months just for the data analysis and final defense. They usually had other courses which may explain the extra time, but they all had less than a total of 7 semester hours of thesis credit.
I checked back over my transcripts and notes from that time(it was quite a while ago).it was 7 months total done as 2 quarters of 8 units each(essentially a research quarter and a quarter to write/revise).
 
If I understand things, than there is a significant difference between a Masters for a PA and a NP ? The PA is a vocational professional degree and the NP is an academic degree. Maybe the PA curriculum posted was not representative of the typical PA Masters ?

NP is NOT an academic degree!!!!! IT IS VOCATIONAL.
 
NP is NOT an academic degree!!!!! IT IS VOCATIONAL.

A masters of science in nursing is a vocational degree? The area of study is nurse practitioner, I am not aware of a "NP degree". What schools offer a NP degree (vocational)? Which vocational programs require a thesis? Thanks
 
A masters of science in nursing is a vocational degree? The area of study is nurse practitioner, I am not aware of a "NP degree". What schools offer a NP degree (vocational)? Which vocational programs require a thesis? Thanks

Family Nurse Practitioner
Master of Science in Nursing+ - Program of Study

Credit Graduate Nursing Curriculum
2 * NUR 501 Theoretical Foundations for Advanced Practice
2 ** NUR 502A Issues in APN Role Development
2 ** NUR 502B Transition to the APN Role
4 * NUR 503 Physical Diagnosis: Assessment and Evaluation Across the Lifespan
3 ** NUR 510 Biostatistics
3 ** NUR 521 Research for Advanced Practice
3 ** NUR 522 Health Promotion and Disease Prevention in Diverse Populations
1 NUR 548 MSN Capstone Project
Subtotal 20 credit hours
Credit Advanced Practice Nursing Core
4 * PHY 551 Advanced Physiology I
4 * PPH 512 Advanced Pathophysiology II
3 * NUR 529 Advanced Pharmacology
3 * NUR 530E Pharmacotherapeutics: Primary Care
3 * NUR 505 Diagnostics for the Advanced Practice Nurse
3 ** NUR 575 Applied Epidemiology
3 ** BHV 528 Major Psychopathological Disorders
3 ** NUR 573 Frameworks for Health Promotion
Subtotal 26 credit hours
Credit CLinical Seminars/Practica
3 ** NUR 532N Community Health Assessment and Planning
3 ** NUR 532P Program Implementation and Evaluation
3 *** NUR 532J FNP in Primary Health Care I
3 *** NUR 532K FNP in Primary Health Care II
3 *** NUR 532L FNP in Primary Health Care III
3 *** NUR 532M FNP in Primary Health Care IV
12 NUR 541 Master's Practicum.
2 NUR 600 FNP residency is 300 clock hours. Additional residency hours may be required by area of concentration and/or individual student needs. Students must register for 2 credit hours per quarter until the residency hours are completed.
Subtotal 32 credit hours
Total 79 credit hours

+Post Masters Certificate Available - program of study arranged individually

Courses are available in the following formats:
* Web-based and on-site
** Web-based and/or compressed weekend
*** On-site only

Please note: All programs of study are subject to change.


Family Nurse Practitioner
Master of Science in Nursing - Program of Study
Full-time plan - 8 quarters- In-class emphasis

Year Fall Winter Spring Summer
1 4 PHY 551
4 PPH 512
4 NUR 503
3 NUR 541
3 NUR 510
3 NUR 529
1 NUR 541
3 NUR 575
2 NUR 501
2 NUR 502A
3 NUR 505
3 NUR 532J
3 NUR 530
3 NUR 573
Total 9 credit hours 9 credit hours 11 credit hours 12 credit hours
2 3 NUR 522
3 NUR 521 3 NUR 532M
2 NUR 600
3 NUR 532N
3 NUR 532P
3 BHV 528 1 NUR 548
3 NUR 541
3 NUR 532L
2 NUR 541
2 NUR 502B
3 NUR 532K
3 NUR 541

Total 12 credit hours 12 credit hours 8 credit hours 5 credit hours

Above is a Masters of science-FNP program = vocational. A course in research coupled with a capstone project is NOT the equivalent of an academic degree. Perhaps there are MA programs in nursing, but I have never thought of nursing as a science.......Sorry.....Looks vocational to me.....

definition of vocation:
http://www.wordreference.com/definition/vocation
Thanks....L.

I do understand that some groups consider nursing as a light science and there are PhD programs in nursing, but many would argue that the PhD is more of the social sciences, not "nursing".

Check out this link:
http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/nursing

A nurse practices nursing as a profession. There are a number of educational paths to becoming a professional nurse and in many countries, nursing practice is regulated by law. Advanced practice nurses include nurses with advanced education, generally at the graduate school level. Advanced practice nurses include nurse practitioners, clinical nurse specialists, certified nurse midwives and nurse anesthetists.

I would say that the study of nursing is the study of a vocation. It is largely a vocational field....
 
Noun 1. higher education - education provided by a college or university

By Wordnet Dictionary



Higher education is education provided by universities and other institutions that award academic degrees, such as university colleges, and liberal arts colleges.

Higher education includes both the teaching and the research activities of universities, and within the realm of teaching, it includes both the undergraduate level (sometimes referred to as tertiary education) and the graduate (or postgraduate) level (sometimes referred to as quaternary education or graduate school). Higher education differs from other forms of post-secondary education such as vocational education. However, most professional education is included within higher education, and many postgraduate qualifications are strongly vocationally or professionally oriented, for example in disciplines such as law and medicine.

In most developed countries a high proportion of the population (up to 50%) now enter higher education at some time in their lives. Higher education is therefore very important to national economies, both as a significant industry in its own right, and as a source of trained and educated personnel for the rest of the economy; it is often argued that in a modern economy the quantity and quality of such human capital is the most important factor underlying economic growth.

http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/Higher_education
 
Noun 1. higher education - education provided by a college or university
By Wordnet Dictionary
Higher education is education provided by universities and other institutions that award academic degrees, such as university colleges, and liberal arts colleges.
Higher education differs from other forms of post-secondary education such as vocational education. However, most professional education is included within higher education, and many postgraduate qualifications are strongly vocationally or professionally oriented, for example in disciplines such as law and medicine.
http://dictionary.laborlawtalk.com/Higher_education
Thus, if the degree conferred requires a thesis or paper (disquisition approved by graduate school) the degree is academic? I don't think medicine or law require a disquisition (and most Pharm D) . I suspect a review of University/College based PA or NP programs (who go through the graduate school) their degrees would be considered academic.
 
Thus, if the degree conferred requires a thesis or paper (disquisition approved by graduate school) the degree is academic? I don't think medicine or law require a disquisition (and most Pharm D) . I suspect a review of University/College based PA or NP programs (who go through the graduate school) their degrees would be considered academic.


Show me the program!

You do understand that 'graduate' does not mean 'academic'......PA nor NP programs (as I understand it) require a thesis like project as it were known.

Taking research credits and doing a capstone project in a vocational/professional field doesn't make it an academic degree! My attempt is not to marginalize the education, but to review it at face value...Please post a masters of nursing curiculum that you feel is more academic vs. vocational.....I don't see how it can be both.
 
Why not just close the thread? It's deteriorated a lot, and is far from the original topic, which has actually been deleted by the OP.
 
Show me the program!

You do understand that 'graduate' does not mean 'academic'......PA nor NP programs (as I understand it) require a thesis like project as it were known.

Taking research credits and doing a capstone project in a vocational/professional field doesn't make it an academic degree! My attempt is not to marginalize the education, but to review it at face value...Please post a masters of nursing curiculum that you feel is more academic vs. vocational.....I don't see how it can be both.

Can you provide an example of a program that you consider an academic example? I am open to anything offered at your institution or others. Thanks
 
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